Water changes

[fishyj]

Hi all. I know this is always a hot topic,but could you tell me what you are trying to remove with all the water changes? I am in the process of setting up my 125 and I figure if I vac. every day removing waste and excess food, and watching my ph, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, could I go with say 20 gallon water changes. Would that work with juvenile discus? Could you add products like seachem discus trace element to water?

[Eddie]

Hi there Fishy J, first off...nice fish in the avatar.


Second, and a hugely disputed topic...the so called myth of no WCs will produce large discus. I have yet to see evidence.

Honestly, it all comes down to water quality. Keeping good water quality and low nitrates is a good recipe. To maintain water quality some people require more water to be changed than others. It depends on your stocking level, size of tank, filtration, feeding schedule and types of foods.

So you have a 125? Is it barebottom of substrate bottom? How many juvenile discus are you going to have? What types of foods will you be feeding? What type of filtration?

Also, discus trace elements, waste of money really. Are you using pure tap water for WCs?


Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

I agree with Eddie.... The MFJ(man from Japan)

Really depends on number of fish and how much you feed them.

[fishyj]

I'll be running 2 emp 400's and a fluval 304 for filtration. Bottom of tank will be maybe 1/4 of pool sand, and I will also have some potted plants that can be moved around, and maybe some manzanita wood for cover. I plan on stocking with maybe 10 juvees and a couple of bristle nose cat fish. If this doesn't sound like it would work, any ideas would be helpful. I really don't like the bare bottom tank. I am sure it is very easy compared to sand but I really don't mind the extra work. By the way everone talks about the growth period, my question is at what point do they reach max? What I mean is it within the first year or what. If I would go planted instead, what size would you recomend buying. Also will be using aged tap water and for feeding will be flake and bh,bw and pellets

[Eddie]

Here is my 2 cents

10 Juvenile discus in a planted tank with substrate. You will get mixed results depending on the quality of the fish.

If I were doing a planted substrate tank, I would get adult discus. With your set-up, about 6-8 even a few more.

The real question is "What is your goal". I am not going to tell you that it is impossible to grow out juvenile discus in your set-up but I will say that the odds are against them.

Everyday somebody gets on here an talks about WCs not being required to grow out discus. That may be case for some people but not what I have experienced.

I want my discus to develop to be in the best shape and health ever, I don't settle for unsightly discus. If I can affect how they develop, I do it, period.

All the people ramping and raving about what is not required, check on their posts. About 70% of their posts are in the disease section and the other 30 are not in the photo gallery. That says a few things in my opinion.

Eddie

[fishyj]

I agree with you. would you advise against the sand or plants or wood or all of them. I want my fish, like all the fish I ever kept to be healthy and grow to full potentional. With the filtration I have, how much water would you change everyday also could I keep the catfish with them or not.

[Eddie]

If you do go with the juvenile discus, I recommend that you use driftwood and potted planted since you seem to want to go with the more natural environment. You could hold off on the sand until they become adults. Sand is a breeding ground for unwanted organisms. Keeping the bottom bare will be easy to clean and keep your water quality manageable. With 2 each 400s and the fluval, you will have pretty good filtration. The amount of water you will need to change will depend on how often you feed and what you feed. Feeding 5 times a day with flake or pellet will be different than feeding 8 times a day with, say.....a beefheart or seafood mix. Mixes tend to foul the water more than a flake, IME. Some mixes hold better than others. You will really have to gauge everything on your feeding regiment and waste buildup. In a 125 with 10 juveniles, I think 50 percent every 2 days would suffice. And when you say juvies, what size really?

The catfish, sure you can keep BN catfish. Feed them regularly though. ;)

Eddie

[fishyj]

The size would be 2-3". What I'll probably do is paint under the tank and go with just a few potted plants and driftwood. I'll just have to monitor the water until I figure out how much to change. I thank you for the help and if I have more questions you'll see me on here again. This site is one of the best I've ever been apart of.

[Eddie]

Sounds great Fishyj,

Looks like you will definitely be on the road to success. I had a sand bottom tank that I ended up painting the bottom beige to give it a nice sand look. When the fish are alot older, I will add the sand back.

Another bit of advice is start off with some quality discus. Either from one of the sponsors or a reputable hobbyist breeder.

I wish you the best of luck.

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

WC (water change) opinions will bring many opinions, all the way from 100%/day to never. Similar with BB (bare bottom) or gravel. There are plenty threads on wc so i will not give my opinion here. The one thing everyone (allmost everyone) agrees on is that discus do require clean water.
In defense of wc what you see in the tank and what is in the filters is not the problem; It is what is disolved in the water.
Picture this; Your house is sealed and you can not flush the toilet. This is close to the way it is for the fish. Don T.

[MostlyDiscus]

Don.... forgot to mention no ones going to open the windows for 30 days:bandana:

Ed

[Eddie]

Don.... forgot to mention no ones going to open the windows for 30 days:bandana:

Ed

Come on Ed, I'm trying to eat breakfast here.....;)

Eddie

[DiscusDude85]

Here is my 2 cents

10 Juvenile discus in a planted tank with substrate. You will get mixed results depending on the quality of the fish.

If I were doing a planted substrate tank, I would get adult discus. With your set-up, about 6-8 even a few more.

The real question is "What is your goal". I am not going to tell you that it is impossible to grow out juvenile discus in your set-up but I will say that the odds are against them.

Everyday somebody gets on here an talks about WCs not being required to grow out discus. That may be case for some people but not what I have experienced.

I want my discus to develop to be in the best shape and health ever, I don't settle for unsightly discus. If I can affect how they develop, I do it, period.

All the people ramping and raving about what is not required, check on their posts. About 70% of their posts are in the disease section and the other 30 are not in the photo gallery. That says a few things in my opinion.

Eddie


Couldnt have said it better myself Eddie!. This is great advice and dont take it lightly.



Joe

[fishyj]

Believe me I won't take the advice lightly. I have been doing research on this for the last month. Just broke down the african tank the other day, removed the painted black back ground, repainted back a lite beige I had. I'll be doing the bottom in a couple of days. I'am taking my time on this one. I will have all my medication,food, ect. before I even decide on what types of fish. I figure if i'am investing 300 to 500 dollars in fish, I want to take my time during this.
Since I will purchase all at once I guess the 125 will also serve as my quarantine tank. I have a 10 gallon for hosp. tank. Thanks for the help in deciding planted or bare bottom.(just think this started out as ? about water changes)

[rickztahone]

i agree with everyone here and i feel like we have many similarities here fishyj. i also have a 125 that i wish i could do 20g WC but i dont and its because i have first hand experience of what happens whe you do. my 125 is BB with driftwood and fake silk plants which are really easy to move when doing a WC which i do every other day since my 55 is a daily WC. if i did the two everyday my wife would have a fit. Anyway, there are ways to make your BB look "cool". paint the bottom a a sand color, paint the back a light color, add driftwood, fake plants...it can be done. WC are a must IME though

[ShinShin]

I have had the luxury of taking full spawns and conducting experiments of all sorts on discus, different strains as well. For large, healthy discus, daily large water changes are a must. So is good nutrition. Take the same number of fry from the same spawn, make all else equal, and the discus with daily 90% wc's will be lager and healthier than 2 - 25% weekly wc's.

WC's not only remove dissolved organics that accumulates from metabolic functions of discus, it removes particulate matter as well, like the daily fecal deposits on the tank bottom. These immediately begin breaking down organic matter, adding to the bioload, the bacteria also dischage waste into the water. Fecal matter is about 30-35% bacteria. I beg to differ about the stuff you see not being a problem. Fecal matter passes on any parasites and eggs to other discus. The pads of canister filter ought to be rinsed daily.They, too, have an affect on the water quality and discus health, after all, what is the accumulated mess on the pads?

Of course, all that is work. It takes time. So, let's just settle.

Mat

[mcsinny99]

I would chime in one thing, plants suck up a lot of nasties. Starting off with some potted plants is not a bad idea at all, just make sure you look for plants that handle higher temps. If you later decide to fully plant that tank, I would make sure you can move the fish for a month, so you can fully plant and avoid any probs.
Mat is right, poop is the enemy, lol.
Remember that snl sketch with the goggles that show fecal matter? Nasty!

[fishyj]

I do plan on using 2 sponge filters and on my emp 400's changing the filter floss every day if needed. On my fluval 304 I use just filter floss in it so would you say to change that daily or what? Would a tds meter be useful in seeing the water conditions?

[Eddie]

I do plan on using 2 sponge filters and on my emp 400's changing the filter floss every day if needed. On my fluval 304 I use just filter floss in it so would you say to change that daily or what? Would a tds meter be useful in seeing the water conditions?

I have never owned a TDS meter, probably never will.

The best way to preserve any HOB or canister is to use a prefilter on the intake tubes. This will gather most of the debris before it can get built up in you filters. The prefilter should be rinsed everyday! Any sponge material in your filters can be rinsed in tank water every week or two weeks.

The sponge filters in my tanks get squeezed and rinsed probably monthly but I siphon the crap out of them everyday while draining my tanks.

Eddie

[ShinShin]

All the filtration in the world will not make up for daily water changes. Neither will adding chemicals some manufacturers attempt to lead you to believe. You can't add mass amounts of biofiltration. Biofiltration can only be supported by the bioload. It only conerts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, anyway. It does nothing for the other dissolved organics that metabolic waste creates. Does nothing for the bacteria attacking and living in the detritus.


Mat

[fishyj]

Really the bottom line than is water changes. I'll just get garbage cans to hold my water. Thanks for the help everyone. Now the next problem, what kind of discus(lol)

[Eddie]

Really the bottom line than is water changes. I'll just get garbage cans to hold my water. Thanks for the help everyone. Now the next problem, what kind of discus(lol)

I don't really see that as a problem....more like a gift. ;)

Eddie

[fishyj]

There soon will be 10 to 12 gifts for me!!!

[Eddie]

Discus are my favorite gifts!

10 to 12, that's like winning the lottery for me. ;)

Eddie

[fishyj]

Thats why I am getting everything I need before getting them because after that I'll be broke!!(lol)

[Eddie]

Trust me.......I know :D

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

I agree with Mat on chemicals to reduce wc. There is no way they can take something out of the water. I do like to have chemicals around that bind ammonia as a temporary fix just incase something goes wrong. Don T.

[Harriett]

Yup, just do massive water changes....clearly you get it. I just wanted to add one note in addition to what Matt [ShinShin] said: when you set up a prefilter sponge for your canister filter, get a FINE pore, not larger pore sponge---the fine pore will grab way more crud than the other and keep your filter comparatively that much cleaner. If you will clean your prefilters daily, fine pore won't clog--it wouldn't for some time anyhow.
Best regards and good luck on your new project.
Harriett

[fishyj]

Thanks for the info.