Got plants. Need some guidance now

[waters10]

Finally got some plants!

I decided to keep it bare bottom, so I put some manzanita pieces together with zip ties and only got plants that can attach to driftwood. It was inspired by this awesome tank (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50294&) by Dan. My piece of wood is much smaller than his and I don't have the same plant density as Dan's tank, which is something I might solve by adding more plants in the near future.

As you can see in the pictures, I have some narrow leaf java fern, anubias nana and java moss. Plants have been in the tank for 1 week now. My setup consists of 85 gallon tank, with 9 discus (between 3 and 4.5"). I have 3 filters: sponge, aquaclear 110 and magnum HOB with micro cartridge. For lighting, I got a T5HO 3x54w with individual reflectors from Catalina. For now, I'm using 1 bulb only (10k, which explains the blue/green tint in the pictures. I'll be switching to 65k this week).

Since I'm new to plants, I could use some help. Keep in mind that fish remains priority and I don't want to use CO2. My goal is to have healthy plants (with some growth), without compromising the growth on my fish, and hopefully no algae.

1)How many hours should I keep my lights on? I'll be getting a timer and I could alternate 1 bulb or 2 bulbs, since these two banks have individual switches.

2)Should I dose any ferts? I'd like to avoid if possible, just to keep it as simple as possible, but I'm willing to consider if it's really necessary and won't bother the discus.

3)Water changes. I used to change everyday 30-40% before the plants, and I've been doing 30-40% every other day since I got the plants. What would be a good balance now? I feed 5 times a day currently (mostly frozen food with occasional live brine and shredded beefheart) and I'm not willing to reduce that.

4)Should I get more plants? I might add more narrow leaf java fern, but I was thinking about adding maybe some fissiden fontanus and riccia tied to either a rock or piece of driftwood.


I know there's not an easy recipe, but any advice would be great!

[MickYoumans]

The plants that you have are a good start. They are all low light plants which are what you want for discus tanks. For light you want about 1 watt per gallon. Put your lights on a timer and run them 8 hours per day for the first week, 10 hours per day for the next two weeks, then 12 hours a day thereafter.

I don't think you want to use gaseous CO2 in a discus tank, but your plants still need carbon. You can supply this using Seachem Flourish Excel. This is a liquid carbon that I use at one cap full per day per 50 gallons.

I also use Tropica Aquacare Plant Nutrition. I started the first week using 10 mL per 50 gallons, once a week. I then up'ed it to 15 mL the next two weeks and now I use 20 mL per 50 gallons once a week.

If you are digging your live plants you may also want to check out some swords. They have nice big luscious leaves that really spice up a tank. Crypts also do well in low light but are not as thick and big as swords.

Here is a link to a site where I have ordered plants. They have some good information about taking care of plants. Good luck with everything!

Plant Info (http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/)

[waters10]

The plants that you have are a good start. They are all low light plants which are what you want for discus tanks. For light you want about 1 watt per gallon. Put your lights on a timer and run them 8 hours per day for the first week, 10 hours per day for the next two weeks, then 12 hours a day thereafter.
I thought that with the quantity of plants I have, plus using a T5HO fixture would mean tons of algae if lights were on for more than 8h. I'm experimenting with the hours now and I'd love to get to 12h, if possible!

I don't think you want to use gaseous CO2 in a discus tank, but your plants still need carbon. You can supply this using Seachem Flourish Excel. This is a liquid carbon that I use at one cap full per day per 50 gallons.

I also use Tropica Aquacare Plant Nutrition. I started the first week using 10 mL per 50 gallons, once a week. I then up'ed it to 15 mL the next two weeks and now I use 20 mL per 50 gallons once a week.
Yeah, I figured excel would be the main recommendation ... I was trying to avoid this, cause it can get expensive. What about the whole thing about water changes introducing CO2?


If you are digging your live plants you may also want to check out some swords. They have nice big luscious leaves that really spice up a tank. Crypts also do well in low light but are not as thick and big as swords.

Here is a link to a site where I have ordered plants. They have some good information about taking care of plants. Good luck with everything!
I'd love to get some swords, but do they attach to driftwood? I don't have any substrate and I'm not a big fan of pots ...

I'm getting plants from other users from plantedtank.net and it has worked very well so far.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[nickmcmechan]

I don't think you want to use gaseous CO2 in a discus tank, but your plants still need carbon. You can supply this using Seachem Flourish Excel. This is a liquid carbon that I use at one cap full per day per 50 gallons.

Hi Mick, was wondering why not?

[KDodds]

Swords mainly receive their nutrients through their roots, requiring not only a substrate, but in-substrate fertilization. Without nutrient sources (NPK) it is unlikely that your plants will thrive. They might not die, but they'll not be likely to thrive either. Changing water daily or every other day virtually guarantees at least some form of fertilization being required. You don't need to go nuts with it, though. Watch and wait. If the plants show signs of needing fertilization (different deficiencies display differently), start with VERY little and work your way up. Good news is that CO2 is not a necessity. 30 or so years ago, nobody was really using CO2, really, and people still had lush tanks full of plant growth. Many weren't fertilizing either. Of course, success here relied on a balance between fish life and plant life. It sounds difficult to attain, but it's not really, life acheives its own balance. These tanks, however, relied on some form of substrate and much less frequent water changes. The thing with CO2 supplementation (in conjunction with high lighting and "heavy" fertilization) is that it's a real "tonic", a kick in the butt to plants, forcing them to grow rapidly, thicker, more dense, and more compact. It also induces "pearling", which you'll really not see, much of anyway, in a low tech tank. Anyway, you biggest concern here is going to be in providing nutrients to the plants you have. Do a little research, know the signs of deficiencies in NPK, and go slow.

[waters10]

Anyway, you biggest concern here is going to be in providing nutrients to the plants you have. Do a little research, know the signs of deficiencies in NPK, and go slow.
Thanks for the reply.

I understand I'm gonna need to pay a lot of attention to my plants and fish and react if I see something wrong. But I guess what I'm looking for is a good baseline start. Something like, based on this information, I'd start with x number of hours with y number of bulbs and water changes every z days. Just so I don't start waaaaay off. I know I'll have to adjust depending on how the plants and fish react, but I'm hoping that with a good baseline start, those adjustments will be little.


Changing water daily or every other day virtually guarantees at least some form of fertilization being required. You don't need to go nuts with it, though. Watch and wait. If the plants show signs of needing fertilization (different deficiencies display differently), start with VERY little and work your way up.
Nice! It seems like you agree that water changes every other day is a good start, then? My only worry is lack of Nitrate. I've been measuring nitrates and I barely get a reading (tank is fully cycled, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite). Will lack of nitrate be a problem or these specific group of plants is ok with low nitrates?


Good news is that CO2 is not a necessity. 30 or so years ago, nobody was really using CO2, really, and people still had lush tanks full of plant growth. Many weren't fertilizing either. Of course, success here relied on a balance between fish life and plant life. It sounds difficult to attain, but it's not really, life acheives its own balance. These tanks, however, relied on some form of substrate and much less frequent water changes. The thing with CO2 supplementation (in conjunction with high lighting and "heavy" fertilization) is that it's a real "tonic", a kick in the butt to plants, forcing them to grow rapidly, thicker, more dense, and more compact. It also induces "pearling", which you'll really not see, much of anyway, in a low tech tank.
I actually want to try CO2 eventually. But I want to take one step at a time. Let me deal with a low tech setup, with no substrate. Then when my fish are all at least 4.5-5" and I feel ready, I might go the next level. I've been searching plantedtank.net a lot lately and I looking at the pics and reading about, makes me want to go full planted, with substrate and everything. But for now, CO2 is completely out of the question!


As you guys can see, as people start to answer, I come up with more questions! Any recommendation is appreciated and even if I don't follow them right away, I might if I start noticing poor health on my plants and fish.

[nickmcmechan]

so, what you need for plants is

Light, at 1 watt per gallon, low light plants only

Carbon, at 1 watt per gallon there is enough in the water and exhaled by the fish anyway

Macro Nutrients - NPK, Mg, Ca, again there is enough in the water normally, unless its RO and given off by fish waste

Micro Nutirents - the bog standard stuff you buy from the LFS - dose at a 1/8 to 1/4 of recommended for low light.

As you increase the light, the plants demand more Carbon, Macros and Micros and if you hit over 2 watts per gallon the only real way to hit your plants demands is through pressurised CO2 and a dosing regime such as EI or PMDD.

[KDodds]

Lack of nitrAte is usually not a problem as long as there IS a nitrogen source. My 135 measures 0ppm nitrate, no biggie, you can expect plants to help eliminate dissolved nitrogenous compounds in a heavily planted, low tech tank, either by taking up nitrate or by "intercepting" ammonia/nitrite. I'd be most worried about the P and K portions of the equation. ;) Trace elements, that kind of thing, probably not necessary. You're not growing anything that's really "demanding" of anything special anyway. Yes, I'd agree that lessening water change frequency is a good start to acheiving a balance. Just remember, you're not working with fast growing plants in a fast growth environment, there really should not be much change, if any, as if you were not growing plants at all. As I said earlier, it's possible you'll need to fertilize, but only "possible", not guaranteed. I'd start with nothing, and wait. If you see anything like yellowing leaves, die back with no new growth, etc., fertilizing may then be in order. Be aware, too, that newly introduced plants will sometimes drop leaves while acclimating. No biggie, just remove them before they rot.

[waters10]

Lack of nitrAte is usually not a problem as long as there IS a nitrogen source. My 135 measures 0ppm nitrate, no biggie, you can expect plants to help eliminate dissolved nitrogenous compounds in a heavily planted, low tech tank, either by taking up nitrate or by "intercepting" ammonia/nitrite.
Nice. I guess in my case I'm gonna have to find out if I'm getting 0 readings due to the water changes or the plants using up nitrogen.

Yes, I'd agree that lessening water change frequency is a good start to acheiving a balance. Just remember, you're not working with fast growing plants in a fast growth environment, there really should not be much change, if any, as if you were not growing plants at all.
That would be great. But when you say lessening water change, do you mean less than 30% every other day, or the change I already did (reducing from daily to every other day)?


Micro Nutirents - the bog standard stuff you buy from the LFS - dose at a 1/8 to 1/4 of recommended for low light.
I have to search exactly what you mean by standard stuff. Never paid attention to this, really.


Any comments on plant density? Should I add more? Any comments regarding fissiden fontanus and riccia? Would they be suitable to my setup?

Thanks for the help so far!

[KDodds]

I meant the change you already made. As far as whether or not to lessen the change frequency or amount, that's something you'll need to decide based on plant and fish "performance". You can use commercial "peat pellets" for trace and other supplementation. Probably not necessary, though.

If you were talking about a full on planted tank, I'd say stock all of the plants first, in full biomass. But, since you're talking about more or less experimenting with a few plants, I'd say go slow and leave things as they are, the less you have to observe, the more likely you are to be able to catch the details, you know? Both Fissidens and Riccia require higher lighting. I'd not try them in a low light, low tech set up. Riccia especially, since it requires tying down securely not to float. If you're looking for something floating, duckweed or hornwort are good choices.

[Wahter]

Swords mainly receive their nutrients through their roots, requiring not only a substrate, but in-substrate fertilization.

That is true when Echinodorus (swords) are growing emersed, but in my experience, when they are submersed in water, they take in some nutrients via their leaves as well. They don't always require a substrate either - when I have sword plantlets growing from runners, I can cut the runners (thus separating them from the mother plant) and they are still growing - without a substrate. I've sent some of these to Al and I'm sure he'll confirm that they were in great shape.

This photo I've posted of an Echinodorus "Oriental" was growing without a substrate:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27739&d=1189353104


Riccia especially, since it requires tying down securely not to float.

Under certain conditions, Riccia Fluitans will turn darker green and not float. However, most of the time it is a floating plant. Even Amano will secure it down with nylon line or have the hair grass runners hold it down. If you decide to tie it down, you have to keep it trimmed or the lower layers will die and parts will break off. Here's a photo of the dark green phase:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27748&d=1189353317

Hope that helps,


Walter

[waters10]

That is true when Echinodorus (swords) are growing emersed, but in my experience, when they are submersed in water, they take in some nutrients via their leaves as well. They don't always require a substrate either - when I have sword plantlets growing from runners, I can cut the runners (thus separating them from the mother plant) and they are still growing - without a substrate.
That's very cool. But if I buy from somebody else with roots already, it won't work out, right?


Under certain conditions, Riccia Fluitans will turn darker green and not float. However, most of the time it is a floating plant. Even Amano will secure it down with nylon line or have the hair grass runners hold it down. If you decide to tie it down, you have to keep it trimmed or the lower layers will die and parts will break off.
Yeah, if I got riccia, I'd tie it to something and keep it trimmed. There are quite a few guides around with tips on how tie riccia. I'd follow some of those.


Both Fissidens and Riccia require higher lighting.
Yeah, I figured. Fissidens is listed as medium light plant on plantedtank.net. But I've seen some pictures and it's the best looking moss imo! I might give it a shot later on after I get more experienced, but for now I guess it's out.


If you're looking for something floating, duckweed or hornwort are good choices.
I was going to add some floaters, but I think it might be messy with my aquaclear generating surface movement.