Planted Discus tanks

[nesser]

Im currently doing lots of reading and research so that I can set up a 125gal planted tank.My main consern right now is can mature Discus survive with one w/c a week?nitrates 20-30ppm?relatively planted tanks seem messy,it seems like a 360 turn after keeping a BB tank.I want a planted show tank but ultimately I want what is best for my Discus are there any suggestions for types of filters or maintanice on such a tank?For keeping 10-12 Discus wich tank parameter is most recomended lenght ,width or height of a tank?

[Eddie]

Im currently doing lots of reading and research so that I can set up a 125gal planted tank.My main consern right now is can mature Discus survive with one w/c a week?nitrates 20-30ppm?relatively planted tanks seem messy,it seems like a 360 turn after keeping a BB tank.I want a planted show tank but ultimately I want what is best for my Discus are there any suggestions for types of filters or maintanice on such a tank?For keeping 10-12 Discus wich tank parameter is most recomended lenght ,width or height of a tank?

Maybe PM Avionics30, I believe he does once a week water changes in a large planted tank. Find out what filtration he is using since his mature discus are fairing well. ;)

Eddie

[nesser]

Thanks basshead,I read few post and I think I might scrap the idea of using layerd substate and using playsand or pool filtersand instead.Im going to only introduce my fish when im 100% sure about there growth,and the water chem of the new tank.As far as w/c's go I may want to up the ante to two 50% a week,some good heated stored water.I still havent had any solid info that says filtration can take the place of w/c's.I know as long as you clean youre pre-filter on youre intake it helps,and I have heard some skeptical things about the different grades and life span of carbon.As far as the nitrates I dont know how sensitive or what the reprocutions of haveing 20-30ppms would be.Are grown out Discus any less hungry?When should I expect there optimal growth and reproductional type things to be "good to go"lol.

[nickmcmechan]

nesser, if you go fo rheavy root feeders you should be able to dose the water column less heavily with ferts

not sure about thoughts on discus at 20-30ppm, i guess it will be fine with plenty of water changes - for most of use nitrates aren't really the problem in itself, its just a good indicator of the total amount of rubbish flotaing around in the water that don't help the fish

people have reported on forums using EI dosing with 50% weekly water changes in discus tanks, but i have no experience myself

it might be worthwhile checking out PMDD dosing...by the way brownie points for guess what PMDD stands for...:p

[Chad Hughes]

Im currently doing lots of reading and research so that I can set up a 125gal planted tank.My main consern right now is can mature Discus survive with one w/c a week?nitrates 20-30ppm?relatively planted tanks seem messy,it seems like a 360 turn after keeping a BB tank.I want a planted show tank but ultimately I want what is best for my Discus are there any suggestions for types of filters or maintanice on such a tank?For keeping 10-12 Discus wich tank parameter is most recomended lenght ,width or height of a tank?

Hello Nesser!

Yes, it can be done and I do it. I have raised 2" discus to healthy adulthood in heavily planed tanks on a single water change a week. It works out nicely! Planted tanks process a lot more waste than non-planted tanks. You will never have a nitrate level. Plants use nitrate (and others) as food. Unless you are adding nitrate through fertilization (I have to) your numbers will be zero. Planted tanks are even better for adult show tanks. With les feedings for adults, you'll have less waste.

I would recommend a height/width proportional tank. Standard 125 gallon tank sizes are fine. I run fairly beefy filtration. For a 125 gallon tank I would recommend a FLuval FX5 or equivelant. On my 150 gallon I run a wet/dry as well. THis allows for surface skimming, a portal for fertilizer dosing (I use the sump), and I run a CO2 reactor through the return pump. Let me know if you have any questions!

Best wishes!


Maybe PM Avionics30, I believe he does once a week water changes in a large planted tank. Find out what filtration he is using since his mature discus are fairing well. ;)

Eddie

Thanks for the referral Eddie! YOu know how I love my planted tanks! ;)

[Don Trinko]

All of my tanks (including Discus) have always had plants or fake plants and gravel or sand.
I have nothing against BB except that I think it is ugly. I think that healthy discus can be kept in any tank as long as they get clean water, good food, etc.
The 2 most contraversial subjects on this site are BB/gravel and WC.
It's like the old joke: "The only thing you can get 2 people to agree on is that the third person is wrong" All of the above IMO, Don T.

[Chad Hughes]

All of my tanks (including Discus) have always had plants or fake plants and gravel or sand.
I have nothing against BB except that I think it is ugly. I think that healthy discus can be kept in any tank as long as they get clean water, good food, etc.
The 2 most contraversial subjects on this site are BB/gravel and WC.
It's like the old joke: "The only thing you can get 2 people to agree on is that the third person is wrong" All of the above IMO, Don T.

Hey Don!

My tanks have always had a complete "biotope" type environment as well. It's hard not to have clean water in a planted take due to a complete nitorgen cycle that is cut short in non-planted tanks. Naturally you have to change water, just less frequently. Good food is always a must as well. I couldn't agree more!

I agree that the bare bottom Vs. substrate tanks are a huge area of disagreement with discus keepers. I guess you have to take a look at why. Most people hoping to own discus read a TON about how to keep them. They may be experienced in aquaria or they may not be. None the less, nearly 99% of everything that you read about the discus claims that you MUST change their water daily or immediately after feedings. It's also stated that substrate is a breeding ground for disease. While these claims have merit, you have to take in to consideration all the factors of the aquarium in question. If you have 50 fish in a 50 gallon tank, you have to change water frequently. There's no way around it. If you have 5 fish in a 50 gallon tank and feed 10 times a day, you'll have to change water daily. These are scenarios that do not adapt well to the planbted tank scenario.

Now, if you have "normal" stocking (using the 10 gallon per fish rule of thumb and no less than a 55 gallon tank) and reasonable feedings (3 to 4 daily), a planted tank will work like a dream! You still need to over filter, meaning that it's best to employ a filter that is rated for twice what you'll need for the tank. I would also recommend a sand substrate. This serves three purposes. First, any food that has been strewn about the tank does not settle in to the crevices that gravel provides. Food stays on the surface and is avaiable for foraging of the discus. I never have "leftovers" in my tanks. It may take about 30 minutes for the discus to forage out all the little bits, but it's always wiped out. Zero waste! The second advantage of sand is that waste products (feces) stay at the surface, just like the food, and can be removed as easily as with bare bottom tanks with a siphon. Finally, the third great thing about sand is the fact that it holds plants extremely well! I've had great success with Home Depot play sand.

It's a preference. It also scares a lot of people and for good reason. Nearly every popular discus article, book, or what have you basically claims that if you don't use the bare bottom technique, you'll kill your discus. I just haven't had this problem. When I started with discus I was already very experienced in aquaria and started discus keeping in a manner that I already had great comfort with, a planted tank! It was after the fact that I read all about the bare bottom requirements for the discus. ALthough I do not feel that bare bottom tanks are ugly per say, it just seems too sterile. I like to see bare bottom tanks that have a huge stock of baby fish or breeder tanks. I keep these too. They are very simple to maintain, but require more frequent water changes due to their incomplete nitrogen cycle.

Bottom line, you have to understand how a complete (closed loop environment) aquarium works before taking this plunge. IMO it's a much healthier, complete environment that has greater appeal to the eye.

Best wishes!

[KDodds]

Another benefit of sand? It is the single highest SA filter media frequently used (intentionally or not). In fact, having sand in tank can completely negate the need for ANY other form of filtration whatsoever. Yup, sand, a powerhead, and sand turning organisms. Make it a deep sand bed and you have complete nitrogen cycle filtration as well. :) Both our 450 and 180 run this way.

[Chad Hughes]

Very nice! Didn't really know that actually. I keep my beds at about 4". I do not have any "sand turning organisms" though. What do you use?

[KDodds]

In marine tanks, there are tons of snails, worms, etc. readily available for this purpose. In FW tanks, I've only done this in tanks with fish that tend to dig, SA substrate spawning Cichlids, ARLC, etc. I actually ran an ARLC tank for 8 years with empty canisters and fry as "nutrient export". :)

[Chad Hughes]

Very cool!

[jonboy1969]

Nesser,
I have a 200 gallon tank with 8 grown discus and a 55 gallon sump under for mechanical filtration. The tank is heavily planted. I actually have to pull out pounds of plants every week or so ever since Ive turned the lights on 24/7 due to the new small fry. I have a thick 3-4" substrate of local rich topsoil and sand to hold it down with smaller gravel as a thin top layer. I use a yamato green fertilizer (http://www.yamatogreen.com/). I have been doing only one 50 gallon maybe 2 water changes a week.
Now before I get blasted for the lack of changes, I have 2 breeding pairs that have growing fry right now. I think the water quality is top notch. I also have a healthy colony of Daphnia which I think is a great snack for the discus when they stray off the bottom or out in the open. I am by no means a Discus expert but I have had aquatic plants and fish for the past 20 plus years with favorable results.
I think one key is to start with nice healthy discus, give them the best foods possible and clean water and you cant go wrong.
Hope this helps.
take care
jon

[Harriett]

I agree with what is being said here--I have a 180g high tech heavily planted tank and I do one 75% water change a week and all is well. I run an FX5 and a cascade 1000--both canisters. I have a cheap surface skimmer attachment I got from Foster and Smith, and use prefilters on the intake tubes. I have been doing it this way for a few years and the discus do just fine with this amount of water change. The sand substrate is about 4 inches deep, has malaysian trumpet snails [and clown loaches to keep them in line]. I My pairs in this tank occasionally get fry to free swim size.
Best regards
Harriett

[Yassmeena]

Im currently doing lots of reading and research so that I can set up a 125gal planted tank.My main consern right now is can mature Discus survive with one w/c a week?nitrates 20-30ppm?relatively planted tanks seem messy,it seems like a 360 turn after keeping a BB tank.I want a planted show tank but ultimately I want what is best for my Discus are there any suggestions for types of filters or maintanice on such a tank?For keeping 10-12 Discus wich tank parameter is most recomended lenght ,width or height of a tank?

Hi - I did not read all the responses but I did read your OP.

I love planted tanks as well, and recently did something you may want to consider. I went from BB to partially planted by installing a 4" high retaining wall in my 55 gallon. This leaves a nice feeding platform of bare glass and frees up swimming space.

I also selected hardy plants - java, swords, hygro and sag - which will not need CO2.

This set up suites my needs because:

1 - It's a manageable step into the planted discus tank world. I can learn and correct methods with fewer stresses on my discus, and can advance the tank as I gain confidence in new skills and knowledge.

2 - I think this tank will be less demanding maintenance wise than a fully planted tank, and I usually have a busy schedule.

It is also quite beautiful!!!!!!! I will be posting pictures as soon as my last plant shipment comes in this Weds.

Here is a U-tube video of such a tank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCfRwO6h4j0

[Chad Hughes]

Hi - I did not read all the responses but I did read your OP.

I love planted tanks as well, and recently did something you may want to consider. I went from BB to partially planted by installing a 4" high retaining wall in my 55 gallon. This leaves a nice feeding platform of bare glass and frees up swimming space.

I also selected hardy plants - java, swords, hygro and sag - which will not need CO2.

This set up suites my needs because:

1 - It's a manageable step into the planted discus tank world. I can learn and correct methods with fewer stresses on my discus, and can advance the tank as I gain confidence in new skills and knowledge.

2 - I think this tank will be less demanding maintenance wise than a fully planted tank, and I usually have a busy schedule.

It is also quite beautiful!!!!!!! I will be posting pictures as soon as my last plant shipment comes in this Weds.

Here is a U-tube video of such a tank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCfRwO6h4j0

That sounds VERY interesting. I'd love to check out your pictures when you get the chance.

Best wishes!

[Don Trinko]

I guess my main complaint is that most of the common discus practices are not based on Science. I will admit that many are based on success. If I had a batch of 50 or more baby discus I would use BB but I don't, I buy 2 to 2.5" discus.
Sometimes I think we miss the point on "clean water" . It is not the stuff in the gravel that makes "dirty water", It is what is disolved in the water.
I do agree that some of what is in the gravel does decay and disolve in the water.
In do not want to dimminish the advice of the breeders and other experts on this site but I do think that individual circumstance and attention to details have more to do with success than BB/gravel and 100%daily/lesser wc. All of this IMO; Don T.

[Chad Hughes]

I guess my main complaint is that most of the common discus practices are not based on Science. I will admit that many are based on success. If I had a batch of 50 or more baby discus I would use BB but I don't, I buy 2 to 2.5" discus.
Sometimes I think we miss the point on "clean water" . It is not the stuff in the gravel that makes "dirty water", It is what is disolved in the water.
I do agree that some of what is in the gravel does decay and disolve in the water.
In do not want to dimminish the advice of the breeders and other experts on this site but I do think that individual circumstance and attention to details have more to do with success than BB/gravel and 100%daily/lesser wc. All of this IMO; Don T.

Don,

Well said!

Best wishes!

[waters10]

Why not something like this great tank by Dan (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50294&highlight=angel%2Fplanted)? This is the coolest tank I've seen. I'm currently trying something similar, though not as awesome. Just trying to get the best of both worlds: bare bottom and plants.

[Goki27]

I was reading this informative thread. I prefer to read then ask questions but I'm new to this planted aquarium field, I'm not sure if I'm on the right thread, I want to make my 55 gal planted with low light plants sand and 5 discus with bottom feeders I be growing them out, but my question goes to the Nitrogen cycle. if I want to do it fish less wouldn't the plants feed on the Ammonia! and leave nothing for the bacteria to consume and populate?. Again it might be wrong thread so apologize in advance. I know its easier to have them in bare tanks I just love the planted tanks and with school i like to relax when i get home

[Chad Hughes]

Can you rephrase your question? I'm a bit confused. You said that you would have 5 discus to grow out and then you mentioned fishless? Not quite sure what your question is.

Best wishes!

[Goki27]

ow, "eeks" I mean when starting to cycle the tank, i want to do it fishless by feeding amonia, instead of using fish. does it still work even with plants in the aquarium?

[Chad Hughes]

Sure! That will definately work. Plant will convert ammonia but not as efficiently as nitrate. Plants will not affect a good cycle.

[KDodds]

Actually, plants become PART of the nitrogen cycle. If you're going to have plants, best to have them in from the beginning, acheiving balance sooner, rather than upsetting balance later by adding plants.

[Goki27]

Alright! good news then

Thanks Chad

[Chad Hughes]

Actually, plants become PART of the nitrogen cycle. If you're going to have plants, best to have them in from the beginning, acheiving balance sooner, rather than upsetting balance later by adding plants.

Great point!


Alright! good news then

Thanks Chad

No worries!

Best wishes!

[Yassmeena]

That sounds VERY interesting. I'd love to check out your pictures when you get the chance.

Best wishes!

Ok - I will PM you when I post the pictures in the photo section then! :)

I made my retaining wall out of plexiglass. There are many other options though. Click on the link to the you tube video and you can see one non-plexiglass option! :)

[nesser]

Thanks for all youre support!I suppose keeping a planted tank is just like keeping a small biosphere,fish and food create nitrate wich plants use to grow this is in agreeance that nature knows best in keeping a cycled tank.I will start an updated journal of how things go so I can help others and prove to naysayers.

[gotfish?]

oh good topic since ive been tossing the idea of planting my tank aswell:D im thinking of going all the way (pressurized co2, and about 2w per gallon lighting) but the only thing thats been holding me back is water chemistry...specially when co2, and addition of ferts comes to the picture:( any suggestions?? i was thinking of ph controller...but is it really needed?? anyone? :D:):antlers:

[KDodds]

If you're worried about using CO2, then don't... IOW, don't "go all the way". There's nothing that says you "have" to and nothing that says a low tech tank, given a little time, can't be equally as lush and beautiful as a high tech tank. You just need to use a bit less lighting (a good thing if you're keeping fish that prefer less lighting, and even better on your wallet) and pick your plants carefully. Plants like Rotala, Ludwigia, Glossostigma, etc., would be out. While these, and other high light, fast growth plants, are currently the big "fad" plants in planted tanks, "fads", by definition, change. And who needs to follow those trends anyway, right? Going with "old standys" like Crypts, Vals, Hornwort, Hygro, some Swords, and Sags, you can easily keep your lighting to 1wpg and forget about CO2 completely. Additionally, pellet fertilizing the substrate works well with these (and other) plants.

[jonboy1969]

specially when co2, and addition of ferts comes to the picture:( any suggestions?? i was thinking of ph controller...but is it really needed?? anyone? :D:):antlers:

Ive used a handful of pH controllers over the years for planted tanks. We had Ph controllers on every tank in our Limnology Lab in college. They were the workhorse of the tank. I believe they are the best way to keep your tank parameters consistent but they are by no means necessary for keeping a beautiful planted tank. Currently Im using an AquaController III to control and monitor almost every tank function.

A good friend of mine who breeds discus uses Hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) to maintain a consistent pH in his tanks with great success. There are arguably many benefits and drawbacks for on both sides. But since plants rely on Carbon as the main building block for their cell structure they need to get the carbon from somewhere. They can get carbon from the water by splitting calcium carbonate in the water (Biogenic Decalcification) but by far the best way is to add Carbon is by using CO2, once CO2 is introduced to the tank, the plants that are doing ok or just hanging on will start to flourish. The plants that were difficult or impossible to keep alive will become easy to care for. Once your tank is properly established with an active Nitrogen cycle, you will find that the tank will be easier to maintain then you would think.
As for fertilizers, Ive used almost every type of fertilizer and killed some fish in the process over the years. The best ones Ive found are made for aquariums in tablet or liquid form. I dont remember the name of the tablet ones Ive used (its been a few years). The liquid fertilizer Im currently using is yamato green. I am having outstanding results with this liquid fertilizer. I recommend not using activated carbon if you are going to use a liquid fertilizer, the activated carbon ends up taking out alot of the good with the bad. Im trying to keep it short and answer your question at the same time.
Remember, this what has worked for me. There are probably countless other ways that will work with equal or better results.
good luck. I would love to hear what you eventually decide.
Jon

[judy]

In marine tanks, there are tons of snails, worms, etc. readily available for this purpose. In FW tanks, I've only done this in tanks with fish that tend to dig, SA substrate spawning Cichlids, ARLC, etc. I actually ran an ARLC tank for 8 years with empty canisters and fry as "nutrient export". :)
what is ARLC, please?

[jonboy1969]

what is ARLC, please?

maybe acrylic? just my guess. probably wrong

[KDodds]

African Rift Lake Cichlids, Cichlids from lakes Malawi, Tanganyika, or Victoria.

[Tito]

Thre's always MTS. Malaysian Trumpet Snails. IMO they are the best freshwater sand stirrers money cannot buy. Yes - just go to the LFS and ask for a few for free! They multiply quickly, don't eat your plants, stir your sand during the night and go back in it and hide during the day so that you don't even have to see them!

BTW if they begin showing up during the day - your water has issues mang! Or, are very very very overcrowded. Slow down in nutrients and get a snail eater to cut back on numbers.

Nature at its best.

[jonboy1969]

Thre's always MTS. Malaysian Trumpet Snails. IMO they are the best freshwater sand stirrers money cannot buy. Yes - just go to the LFS and ask for a few for free! They multiply quickly, don't eat your plants, stir your sand during the night and go back in it and hide during the day so that you don't even have to see them!

BTW if they begin showing up during the day - your water has issues mang! Or, are very very very overcrowded. Slow down in nutrients and get a snail eater to cut back on numbers.

Nature at its best.

I agree the MTS are tops. Good thing to know about ARLC's :) I stand corrected! I usually put 10-20 in a new tank then forget about them. I usually find the stays in the overflow boxes when cleaning.

[Eddie]

There is no arguement. Keeping discus in a planted/substrate tank is not even close to the same as raising juvenile discus in a planted/substrate tank.

Everyone says I have done it, and yet they have maybe 4 fish that grew to adult size. Raise a dozen 2" fish in a planted/substrate tank and the results will not even be close to doing it a bare bottom tank.

And so, with the science and experience....isn't the definition of science pretty much documented experience by professionals or does it have to be scholars.

You all have 5 or so fish thriving in a planted tank, thats great and you are very lucky and experienced.

I would have to go with you select individuals are very experienced in aquaria but when you write a few books on the subject of raising discus in a planted tank, come back and present your topic.


Eddie

[jonboy1969]

Sorry Eddie, Ive never raised any discus but am trying to document my first experience
at www.jongrove.com/jon I figured daily updates here would be boring for most.
I hope I didnt upset with my info on keeping planted tanks. I didn't mean to infer that I was an expert at raising discus. I was just trying to make a nice show tank and the discus happened to lay fertile eggs.
cheers~

[Eddie]

Sorry Eddie, Ive never raised any discus but am trying to document my first experience
at www.jongrove.com/jon I figured daily updates here would be boring for most.
I hope I didnt upset with my info on keeping planted tanks. I didn't mean to infer that I was an expert at raising discus. I was just trying to make a nice show tank and the discus happened to lay fertile eggs.
cheers~


LOL, I am no expert, far from it really. Only read about every discus book known to man except Heiko's :) LOL. I have only been in the discus hobby for 13 years and have stepped out of it on several occasions. The tried and true ways of raising discus have been proved far too many times to say that there is no scientific evidence for it.

You are an expert in what you do, so are many of the others here that keep planted tanks. Being able to raise your group of discus to adults and have them breed is an amazing thing.

The fact is, many of the individuals who have done this successfully have prior experience in planted aquariums. They know how to maintain a perfect planted environment where there is balance.

No harm in our opinions my friend,

Eddie

[jonboy1969]

Rodger that,
well, I haven't raised anything yet. only 30-40 swimmers so far to a few days of free swimming. Ive killed more then survived so far! I do think that BB is the way to grow out huge discus on what ive read and seen. I need to set up some kind of "growing BB tank" to get the dividers out of my main tank. Im just running outta floor space. I also think your opinions in this forum is clear, concise and top notch and sometimes entertaining! hehe :)

[KDodds]

Without a doubt, the "fish farm" method of keeping high densities of fish in small volumes with tons of feeding and water changes will grow out the individual fish faster and often to much larger than "natural" sizes. If that's what you want and that's what you're looking for, hey, more power to you. There are, however, those who find the look of "show type discus" to be unnatural and aesthetically displeasing, myself among them. In herps, we called it "pumping", and as an adult, it was easy to tell a "pumped" snake from one fed a more "normal" diet. It seems to me to be very much the same with discus. The "pumped" fish look, to me, bloated and lumpy. My personal preference would be for something more streamlined and slim, smaller, closer to a wild look in size and proportion. In this case, if you don't mind "show aficianados" telling you your discus are "stunted", it's entirely possible to grow out discus, like any fish, in a more "normal" hobbyist fashion. I did this for years with angels and never had anyone complain about buying 50 dimes for $2.50. ;) Of course, this was 20-25 years ago, but we still had "fancy" angels and "show" angels even back then.

[Don Trinko]

I'm certainly no expert either but I have had tropicals since some where in the mid 1950's. Things have changed a lot and most of the changes were a combination of science and experience.
I do not object to other opinions, I do object to the "my way is the only way" attitude.
Going by what I read on this site many have been successfull with BB AND many have been successfull with gravel and plants. If not why do we have a section called " Planted / show types and biotypes"?
I see that their are some advantages to BB. (easier to clean) But their are disadvantages. How many photo's have you seen with fish hidding by the sponge filter? Gravel/plants is harder to care for. That does not mean that it can't be done.
For some of us the esthetics of BB are unsatisfactory. If my discus were sick all the time I would have considered BB.
"5 fish"? I have 4 tanks with 18 discus. Are they all 8"? No, but I have one 7" and most of the rest are 5 to 6" Do I have any runts, Yes.
all of this IMO; Don T.

[Chad Hughes]

Hey guys!

It makes me smile every time we revisit this topic simply becuase it's always the same folks with the input. I think we may just have to agree to disagree. We all know that it can be done both ways (stock tank style or aquarium style).

Most fish hobbyists like aquarium style. They like to look at their aquarium and relax. They enjoy sharing it with their friends. They like having an aquatic environment. There are also folks that like the less time consuming stock tank style. You keep some fish in a container, feed them a bunch and see how fast they grow. That's cool too. One takes much more skill, patience, and money than the other. At the end of the day, they both work. Bottom line.

I haven't read or even know of any scientific study that says you can't do one or the other nor do I know of any scientific journal that states one is better than the other. Experience speaks volumes, but experiences are also broad and many! Some of the greatest discus breeders in the world don't do half of what fanatic hobbyists do. They have their way and hobbyists have their way. Do they work? Yes! Are there different levels of success? Yes! Do discus keepers think their ways are the best? Typically, yes!

I keep both planted and bare stock tanks for obvious reasons. I produce discus in bare tanks and keep discus in planted tanks. Sure, I've grown out in both and had very similar results. So, shall we agree to disagree? ;)

[jonboy1969]

I hear ya, Im just trying to keep the guys happy and healthy. Im not too concerned about growing show quality fish or even making money on the little guys. I am not even sure what I will do with the little guys in a few months (if they make it that far).
I am sure MostlyDiscus [Ed] will give me a hand tho. He has been a big help so far. That's actually an understatement, he gave me all my discus and if it wasn't for him telling me I could do it, I would of never attempted to keep any discus. I always thought it was way above my skill level for keeping fish. I feel much more experienced at keeping a planted aquarium with a few guppies or neon tetras then I do at keeping Discus. I should go to Ed's place and help him finish his tank rack. Then I might have a place to give these little guys a fighting chance.
I always loved angel fish but for one reason or another ive never kept any. I think I kept telling myself I wouldn't be able to keep them alive long.
Bottom line is I think any tank with healthy fish in it are extremely cool.

[Chad Hughes]

Jonboy,

I like your website! www.jongrove.com/jon

If science (experience) says it can't be done, your site punches science right in the throat!

Best wishes!

[dkratzer1]

I am going to sound really stupid to you guys. (which obviously I am) I have a 300 gallon tank. I have live plants in it now. I have 8 flourescent blubs on the top. My plants are growing great..they won't quit growing actually. I was just on another post where all my discus died. What reason, I don't know. I have never put fertilizer in the tank or CO2 for that matter. I am doing my tank over. I am putting flouralite in the bottom for the plants and adding gravel. Are discus going to live in this? The tank was set up for about 6 months. I never had a problem with the ph until about 2 months ago...which I think was from the topsoil I put in the bottom leaching something. That's why I am tearing the tank down. Do plants change the ph of the water?

[KDodds]

Phew, topsoil can definitely be the reason, there could be anything in there from pesticides to fertilizers, lead, arsenic, or other metals, etc. What you propose as a substrate, no reason it can't work. I'd clean the tank thoroughly, though, get all of the old substrate out, possibly run it empty with some carbon for a few weeks before cleaning it again and starting over.

[Chad Hughes]

Hey there!

Glad to hear that you haven't given up!

Substrates rated for aquarium use are inert. They will not change any of your water perameters. In my opinion, I would use sand instead of gravel. You can put your flourite under tha sand and the plants will do great!

Best wishes!

[jonboy1969]

Do plants change the ph of the water?
I would say not really, pH is the measured amount of hydrogen-ions. plants do not tend to 'give off' free hydrogen-ions.
What I think is always best in a tank whatever the pH is, would be to have a high buffering capacity of the tank. Which means that it will resist the change in hydrogen-ion concentration when an acid or base is introduced to the tank. An rough example is. you could have two tanks of similar size with an identical pH of 6.5 and then you added identical amounts of lets say acidic soil. The tank with a very high buffering capacity pH could change very little say 6.4 pH. but the tank with a low buffering capacity could 'swing' to 5.0 pH.
Alot of people would call the tank with a high buffering capacity a 'stable' tank.
the amount of factors that go into this subject is more then can be said in a few sentences, but back to your last question.
I believe that plants are more affected by what is the pH of the water then the effect that plants have on the pH of the water.
The decaying of plant material probably has the greatest effect on the fluctuation of pH (the Hydrogen-ion concentration) if I would have to narrow it down to one thing of plants affecting pH.

[nesser]

you gotta love the internet with pros and info like this folks!

[theteflondon]

I agree with what is being said here--I have a 180g high tech heavily planted tank and I do one 75% water change a week and all is well. I run an FX5 and a cascade 1000--both canisters. I have a cheap surface skimmer attachment I got from Foster and Smith, and use prefilters on the intake tubes. I have been doing it this way for a few years and the discus do just fine with this amount of water change. The sand substrate is about 4 inches deep, has malaysian trumpet snails [and clown loaches to keep them in line]. I My pairs in this tank occasionally get fry to free swim size.
Best regards
Harriett
the surface skimmer you have, it attaches to the fx5 or is it universal?