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nesser
03-25-2009, 10:38 PM
What is it that makes Discus grow fast when doing more or larger % w/c's?.Is It there slime coat/natural water parameters that triggers it or is it just clean water?

Elite Aquaria
03-25-2009, 10:39 PM
Good food and clean water makes discus grow fast.

Eddie
03-26-2009, 04:56 AM
What is it that makes Discus grow fast when doing more or larger % w/c's?.Is It there slime coat/natural water parameters that triggers it or is it just clean water?

I second what Dan says. It's not so much changing water just to change water. The heavy feeding that allows discus to grow well, bombards the quality of water in the tank. Doing big water changes keeps the water quality in good condition for the fish to thrive and be disease free. ;)

Eddie

Darren's Discus
03-26-2009, 04:59 AM
One of the biggest problems in a discus tank is Ammonia build up,constant water changing keeps this in check.


cheers

Chad Hughes
03-26-2009, 11:10 AM
What is it that makes Discus grow fast when doing more or larger % w/c's?.Is It there slime coat/natural water parameters that triggers it or is it just clean water?

Nesser,

This is a hot topic amongst discus keepers.

Eddie, you know I have to throw my .02 in to this. LOL!

To answer your original question, it's not exactly documented what limiting growth factors are eliminated through water changes. Many folks that raise discus do large frequent water changes for the exact reasons mentioned above. Due to heavy feeding and subsequest fish waste, water changes must be performed to keep general water quality satisfactory for fish.

Now, it all depends on what your situation is. If you have 6 discus in a 200 gallon tank, naturally your water wil not foul as quickly and you could likely perform less water changes. Another situation, which is much more common amongst discus keepers, is the same 6 fish in a 55 gallon tank. With this setup you have decreased your water volume by 75% and, due to feedings and waste, you'll need to be more dilligent with water changes or you will see an increase in general water parameters.

Many factors that determine how frequently you'll need to change water will be types of food fed, frequency of feeding, size of fish, palnted or bare tank, etc. Water changes remove DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) as well that are not broken down or removed through standard filtration. There is no formula that tells you how often or how much water to change based on your specific situation. Most here will speak from experience and what has worked for them, not from a science book. That being said, there are wide ranges of discus husbandry regimes that work for a wide range of people. You'll have to discover what works for you and utilize it!

If you read some of the old threads here on SD, you'll see what I am talking about. I once read a thread on here that was talking about only changing water once a month. Honestly, I don't think I would try that, but apparently it worked for someone. I'm not sure what their situation was.

IMHO, the more you feed anything, the bigger it will grow. With more food comes more waste. With more waste comes greater, more frequent water changes. With greater, more frequent water changes comes less of an opportunity for general water parameters to become elevated. From what I have observed, most people change water blindly without even testing to see if it needs changed. This is great if that's what you want to do. It would be nice to see a case study with a control group that would allow us to put some of these mysteries to rest. Water is not a "magical" growth hormone.

In closing, do daily water changes make fish grow bigger? I don't think anyone could site this scientifically but those that do it have nice big fish!

Best wishes!

Elite Aquaria
03-26-2009, 11:37 AM
Chad is 100% correct on this...Your water quality is what is important for fish growth...

For me with my Central System (18 x 40 breeders) I can change my grow out system every other day or third day and still see huge growth rates...BUT

on my 20 gallon fry and 75 gallon tanks that have sponge filters 50% daily is required.

Scribbles
03-26-2009, 06:16 PM
I'm currently doing 90% daily wc because my fish seem happier with big changes and are growing like weeds. Amonia 0 nitrites0 nitrates trace. i feed 8-12 times daily. I was doing 50% wc daily but when they trashed the tank more than usual I did 90 and they were more active so I continued. Maybe more oxygen? I don't know, but with discus growing and healthy I'll continue.

Chad Hughes
03-26-2009, 06:19 PM
You and basshead are in the same boat with feedings! LOL! He feeds like 10 times a day as well. Feeding like that nearly requires one or more large water changes daily. I'm sure your fish respond favorably to water changes with all the waste that is added though that many feedings! Glad to hear that it's working out for you!

Best wishes!

Eddie
03-26-2009, 10:03 PM
Nesser,

This is a hot topic amongst discus keepers.

Eddie, you know I have to throw my .02 in to this. LOL!

To answer your original question, it's not exactly documented what limiting growth factors are eliminated through water changes. Many folks that raise discus do large frequent water changes for the exact reasons mentioned above. Due to heavy feeding and subsequest fish waste, water changes must be performed to keep general water quality satisfactory for fish.

Now, it all depends on what your situation is. If you have 6 discus in a 200 gallon tank, naturally your water wil not foul as quickly and you could likely perform less water changes. Another situation, which is much more common amongst discus keepers, is the same 6 fish in a 55 gallon tank. With this setup you have decreased your water volume by 75% and, due to feedings and waste, you'll need to be more dilligent with water changes or you will see an increase in general water parameters.

Many factors that determine how frequently you'll need to change water will be types of food fed, frequency of feeding, size of fish, palnted or bare tank, etc. Water changes remove DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) as well that are not broken down or removed through standard filtration. There is no formula that tells you how often or how much water to change based on your specific situation. Most here will speak from experience and what has worked for them, not from a science book. That being said, there are wide ranges of discus husbandry regimes that work for a wide range of people. You'll have to discover what works for you and utilize it!

If you read some of the old threads here on SD, you'll see what I am talking about. I once read a thread on here that was talking about only changing water once a month. Honestly, I don't think I would try that, but apparently it worked for someone. I'm not sure what their situation was.

IMHO, the more you feed anything, the bigger it will grow. With more food comes more waste. With more waste comes greater, more frequent water changes. With greater, more frequent water changes comes less of an opportunity for general water parameters to become elevated. From what I have observed, most people change water blindly without even testing to see if it needs changed. This is great if that's what you want to do. It would be nice to see a case study with a control group that would allow us to put some of these mysteries to rest. Water is not a "magical" growth hormone.

In closing, do daily water changes make fish grow bigger? I don't think anyone could site this scientifically but those that do it have nice big fish!

Best wishes!

I know Chad, you are the last of the Mohicans on this subject, it's cool though. So how much water do you change daily in your juvie tanks? Once a week 20% or?

Your right about the the size of the tank and amount of feedings. Definitely things that gauge how often to change the water. Also stocking levels and water source quality are big hitters.

Best of luck Chad,

Eddie

Scribbles
03-26-2009, 11:12 PM
You and basshead are in the same boat with feedings! LOL! He feeds like 10 times a day as well. Feeding like that nearly requires one or more large water changes daily. I'm sure your fish respond favorably to water changes with all the waste that is added though that many feedings! Glad to hear that it's working out for you!

Best wishes!

I started feeding/cleaning like that because of Basshead and his results. I used to feed 3 times daily and do once or twice a week 25% wc and the discus grew. I thought people were kidding about 1 inch of growth per month until I witnessed it myself. Now I have to start the bigger tank sooner than i expected. LOL. Thanks Basshead. :)

waters10
03-26-2009, 11:31 PM
You and basshead are in the same boat with feedings! LOL! He feeds like 10 times a day as well. Feeding like that nearly requires one or more large water changes daily. I'm sure your fish respond favorably to water changes with all the waste that is added though that many feedings! Glad to hear that it's working out for you!

Best wishes!
Chad, how many times do you feed your fish? I'm just curious. For the record, I feed mine 4-6 times a day.

nesser
03-27-2009, 01:46 AM
Thanks for the advice! there's theorising and then there is hearing about experience in the field.

Chad Hughes
03-27-2009, 01:40 PM
I know Chad, you are the last of the Mohicans on this subject, it's cool though. So how much water do you change daily in your juvie tanks? Once a week 20% or?

Your right about the the size of the tank and amount of feedings. Definitely things that gauge how often to change the water. Also stocking levels and water source quality are big hitters.

Best of luck Chad,

Eddie

Eddie,

LOL! Your "last of the Mohicans" comment made me laugh. Typically I change 50-60% on Saturdays. This is on a 150 gallon tank with about 10 4" fish and about 6 5 - 6.5+?" fish. All of these fish were added at about the same time. Some were larger than others when they were added, but pretty close to the same size. I have one runt. He eats plenty, but seems to be small. He's fiesty!! This tank gets fed 3 times daily (typical) and sometimes 4 to 5 times if I am home (the weekends). It seems to work for me and I don't get a rise in any of the parameter readings throughout the week. Keep in mind there are tons of plants in this tank as well. I consider it over filtered with an FX5 and wet dry filter. Both Nitrate and Phosphate remain low due to the plant's consumption.

Now, on a low stock fry tank (one fish per gallon) I change 50% of the water two to three time weekly. These tanks I check from time to time for generaly water parameters. Typically there are no issues even though these tanks get fed 5 times daily. Most of the feeding is done in the afternoons after work and I am pretty dilligent about removing waste from these tanks. The crap that fry produce is astornomical! LOL! I do not change the water that I remove during siphoning. I filter it and return it back to the tank. It works pretty well.

High stock fry tanks (2+ fish per gallon) get daily water changes after siphoning waste. I'd say it's about a 10 to 20% change daily. There's just too much crap and I change the water in these tanks to preserve water quality. The density is just too great.

Best wishes!


Chad, how many times do you feed your fish? I'm just curious. For the record, I feed mine 4-6 times a day.


Normally 3 times daily, but more on the weekends. I feed FBH, FBW, FSM, tetra color bits and BH flake. They seem to like the spirulina pellets that I feed the coreys in the tank. My food recipies all contain a balance of vegetable matter and meat (either beefheart or fish), spirulina, brewers yeast and adult multi vitamins. They love it!

Best wishes!

waters10
03-27-2009, 02:03 PM
I do not change the water that I remove during siphoning. I filter it and return it back to the tank. It works pretty well.

hmmmm. Tell me more!! It's something I wanted to do for a while ...

Chad Hughes
03-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Well, it's nothing too complicated. All you need is something like a collander and some fine filter floss. I place the collander with the filter floss in it over a 5 gallon bucket and run the siphon water trough it. It takes out all the junk and leaves behind debris free water. I put that water back in the tank.

The biggest reason that I do this is because I don't have the perfect tap water that some seem to have. It has a hardness of 500-600 ppm TDS. Way too hard for even juvie discus IMO. I have to mix RO with tap even for the juvies, just at a different ration. I like about a 200 ppm TDS for them.

Anyway, the little bit of filtering that I perform at siphon time is enough to sustain the water parameters until the next water change. That's it!

Best wishes!

kaceyo
03-27-2009, 05:37 PM
Doing large frequent wc's will increase the growth rate of almost any fish, not just discus. It's just more important for discus that are being fed heavily with messy foods like BH/seafood mix or frequent feedings.
I have 30 LSSi fry in a 3' 50gal tank that are fed 5 to 6 times a day. They get two aprox 65% wc's a day. The biggest of them reached 2" TL by 7 weeks or a bit less. I just love watching them grow by leaps and bounds and IMO fry that grow like that have better shapes than those that aren't cared for the same way. I don't know that they're any healthier, but to me they look better.

Kacey

Eddie
03-27-2009, 09:20 PM
Doing large frequent wc's will increase the growth rate of almost any fish, not just discus. It's just more important for discus that are being fed heavily with messy foods like BH/seafood mix or frequent feedings.
I have 30 LSSi fry in a 3' 50gal tank that are fed 5 to 6 times a day. They get two aprox 65% wc's a day. The biggest of them reached 2" TL by 7 weeks or a bit less. I just love watching them grow by leaps and bounds and IMO fry that grow like that have better shapes than those that aren't cared for the same way. I don't know that they're any healthier, but to me they look better.

Kacey

Definitely Kacey, I know what you mean. ;)


Eddie

judy
03-27-2009, 11:19 PM
yeah, but don't your nitrates creep up on you that way?

Chad Hughes
03-28-2009, 12:50 PM
I test for everything including Phosphates in fry tanks and nothing is high. Elevated, yes. I get about 10 ppm nitrate and 2 ppm phosphate. I don't do this because I like it, I have to do it.

My water is not usable from the tap. I have to perform the RO mix even for fry. Water has to be filtered, treated, heated, etc. Something else that I have to take in to consideration is water utilization. I cannot go through thousands of gallons of water like most can without worries of rationing. Southern California is very dry and we don't have our own water.

I know what to look for in regards to what is damaging to discus health. I test and tailor my maintenance regime as needed to meet the needs of the discus. Another piont that I might make is that with all the tanks and discus that I do manage, I have had one instance of disease (knock on wood) in two years. It was the beginnings of a fluke infestation that was caught on the first day, treated and was corrected. This was in a heavily populated fry tank. It's rather common.

I can't say that I have giant discus through my methods, but I am very happy with the growth of the fish and their health. I can raise fry that typically acieve 3" in 3 to 4 months. I think that's pretty good. I know that lots of people go on the power feeding regimes and that drives the water changes. I get it, I just don't do it. I'm not trying to grow a 12" discus. I want to raise healthy, normal size discus without breaking the bank and wastefully using resources that are limited to begin with.

I hope this helps anyone reading this to understand why I do what I do. I'm not trying to buck the system! I'm just trying to raise dicus in the desert. ;)

Best wishes!