PH SHOT UP TO 8.8 PLEASE HELP!

[theteflondon]

I added 5 lbs of ceramic noodles to my fx5 on saturday i rinsed all of it in dirty aquarium water before doing it. All of my cardinal tetras are dead! I just tested my water after disposing of $50 worth of fish, and my PH is 8.8!Has this ever happened to anyone? Thank God I dont have discus yet! Please help!

[Don Trinko]

I do not have the answer but I would check the KH. If the KH is low the ph can change easily causing large swings in ph. Don T.

[theteflondon]

I do not have the answer but I would check the KH. If the KH is low the ph can change easily causing large swings in ph. Don T.

I guess the real question is will it stablize or should I remove it?

[Eddie]

I guess the real question is will it stablize or should I remove it?

I don't want to come off the wrong way but what type pr brand of ceramic noodles did you use? Any links to the exact ones you put in the filter? Maybe change out the ceramic noodles with sintered glass type. :confused:

http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/DiscusSouth/images/catalog/Web_Bio_Ring_Large-400pix.jpg

Picture is from Discus South UK

Eddie

[theteflondon]

I don't want to come off the wrong way but what type pr brand of ceramic noodles did you use? Any links to the exact ones you put in the filter? Maybe change out the ceramic noodles with sintered glass type. :confused:

http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/DiscusSouth/images/catalog/Web_Bio_Ring_Large-400pix.jpg

Picture is from Discus South UK

Eddie

I got them from ebay I bought it in bulk by the pound.

http://cgi.ebay.com/454g-Bio-Ceramic-Ring-For-Canister-Pond-Filter-Media_W0QQitemZ170315431713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item170315431713&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

[brewmaster15]

Hi Donato,

Do you know what your normal pH is both out of your tap and aged? Is your water source well or municiple.?

Ceramic noodles should be inert so I would start ruling out the water itself.

hth,
al

[theteflondon]

Hi Donato,

Do you know what your normal pH is both out of your tap and aged? Is your water source well or municiple.?

Ceramic noodles should be inert so I would start ruling out the water itself.

hth,
al

Thanks for your help Al, my ph has been at 6.8 for 5 or 6 weeks now my ph out of the tap is the same.

[brewmaster15]

Donato,
Is it municipal water ? if it is... you may want to call the water company...they've been known to play with the PH and usually adjust it up from an acidic value ...

Have you tested the tap waters pH since this has happened?

If the noodles are in question , I'd remove them and do a massive water change... see what happens... testing them is easy enough.. a bucket of aged tap water...measure the pH... put inthe noodles, and re-test the pH a day latter...see if the pH Moves when the noodles are added.

hth,
al

[theteflondon]

Also my tank is a planted tank... Could this kill my plants as well?

[theteflondon]

Donato,
Is it municipal water ? if it is... you may want to call the water company...they've been known to play with the PH and usually adjust it up from an acidic value ...

Have you tested the tap waters pH since this has happened?

If the noodles are in question , I'd remove them and do a massive water change... see what happens... testing them is easy enough.. a bucket of aged tap water...measure the pH... put inthe noodles, and re-test the pH a day latter...see if the pH Moves when the noodles are added.

hth,
al

I just tested my tap water its at 6.8 my tank was the same last thursday i did a 20% water change on saturday and added the noodles in the process. i noticed all my fish dieing and tested today and its at 8.8 do you think the ph will change if i do a bunch of massive water changes this week without removing it?

[theteflondon]

Sorry it is city water not well water.

[Eddie]

It is a huge jump from 6.8 to 8.8. Even with an air tornado in the tank it might hit 8 depending on the KH of you water. The noodles are what I am leaning towards. But you'll have to do a test.


Best of luck,

Eddie

[theteflondon]

It is a huge jump from 6.8 to 8.8. Even with an air tornado in the tank it might hit 8 depending on the KH of you water. The noodles are what I am leaning towards. But you'll have to do a test.


Best of luck,

Eddie

ok Ill try it, to age water I just put it in a bucket and let it sit for 24 hours?

[hope]

Just another thought - my ph jumped recently and I read on a thread about certain stones that can cause a rise in ph. Without thinking about it I had recently added some stones, so in my case I think it might have affected my tank. If you recently added some type of substrate or stone decoraitons you might want to look into it. I am not an expert, though.

[theteflondon]

Just another thought - my ph jumped recently and I read on a thread about certain stones that can cause a rise in ph. Without thinking about it I had recently added some stones, so in my case I think it might have affected my tank. If you recently added some type of substrate or stone decoraitons you might want to look into it. I am not an expert, though.

Well I did change my gravel to sand in the process I had to anchor a piece of drift wood to a paving stone I did that a little more than a week ago the stone is completely berried under the sand could it have taken a week to affect the water?

[srusso]

Don, do two tests one aged water with media and one without, it's the only way to be sure. It has to be the media that is the problem, I know becuase I have been helping him with the tank and nothing else could have caused this issue. It is the only change in the tank since the spike! We tested the water before adding the cardnels and it was nearly perfect. With a 105 gallon tank the water used in the water change would damn near need to be poluted to make that much of a swing. Get the guy to return your money for the media, he sold you some crazy ****!

[MostlyDiscus]

If the media was added and the ph jumped like that then it would make sense srusso. Put the noodles in a bucket and see if it brings the ph to over 8. I would kill for 6.8 comming from the tap:mad:.

Ed

[theteflondon]

The guy I purchased the media from insists I am having problems because I should have soaked the media for 48 hours prior to putting it in my filter, I never in my life heard anything like it. I have always just rinsed the media in old aquarium water never soaked anything for 48 hours.

[Eddie]

Well I did change my gravel to sand in the process I had to anchor a piece of drift wood to a paving stone I did that a little more than a week ago the stone is completely berried under the sand could it have taken a week to affect the water?

What type of sand and what kind of rock?

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Sometimes things are not what they seem. If its too good to be true then.... I would just test it to make sure, hey its ebay.... get you money back after your sure:D.

[Eddie]

I would just ditch the noodles, thats me though. That is the only change to your tank and it jumped like that. Discus come first, media comes second. ;)


Eddie

[theteflondon]

What type of sand and what kind of rock?

Eddie

Quickrete Play Sand the stone was a 1'X1' stone you would use to make a walk way it was called traverstone.

[Eddie]

Quickrete Play Sand the stone was a 1'X1' stone you would use to make a walk way it was called traverstone.

Might remove the media, see if it changes, if not, then the stone.

Eddie

[theteflondon]

I would just ditch the noodles, thats me though. That is the only change to your tank and it jumped like that. Discus come first, media comes second. ;)


Eddie

I know what you mean the part that kills me is I spent $50 on this media for 5 lbs and now what do I do with it? I just want to put my head through the wall! I am aging water as we speak i just put it in a bucket and use an air up to airate it for 24 hours right?

[Eddie]

I know what you mean the part that kills me is I spent $50 on this media for 5 lbs and now what do I do with it? I just want to put my head through the wall! I am aging water as we speak i just put it in a bucket and use an air up to airate it for 24 hours right?

Yup

[theteflondon]

should I add dechlorinator to it prior to putting the noodles in the aged water tomorrow?

[Eddie]

should I add dechlorinator to it prior to putting the noodles in the aged water tomorrow?

Do whatever you would normally do to age your water, if you add dechlor, add dechlor to the bucket. Trying to eliminate one thing at a time.

Eddie

[Bobears]

Traverstone is concrete. Concrete has to be sealed with some sort of epoxy or it will mess with your water quality.

[erikc]

Concrete has a high PH value, around 9, depending on the amount of cement and the mix (cement can have kiln ash etc.. in it).

It usually attacks the reinforcing steeel rods that are bedded within. I think taking it out of the tank would be a good idea.

[srusso]

Don, yes you should declor the water.
I really don't think that the traveler stone is it... We would see a slow pH increase, not a huge spike 24 hours after adding media. I think we are "graving for stones here" LOL the water test with the media in it will give us the real answer. I think the real question here is, has anyone soaked media for 48hours before use? We are getting to the point where the media has been soaking in your tank for 48 hours anyway... If we are going to see what made the water spike it needs to be tested soon, if not at this point keep the media in the tank do a huge water change and test in another day. FYI all he basically has no fish in the tank now... I wonder if he said to soak media first?

[Eddie]

Don, yes you should declor the water.
I really don't think that the traveler stone is it... We would see a slow pH increase, not a huge spike 24 hours after adding media. I think we are "graving for stones here" LOL the water test with the media in it will give us the real answer. I think the real question here is, has anyone soaked media for 48hours before use? We are getting to the point where the media has been soaking in your tank for 48 hours anyway... If we are going to see what made the water spike it needs to be tested soon, if not at this point keep the media in the tank do a huge water change and test in another day. FYI all he basically has no fish in the tank now... I wonder if he said to soak media first?

I've never soaked any media, ever. Just rinsed

Eddie

[KDodds]

Ditto Erik, uncured concrete/cement will wreak havoc on your pH, making it a Tanganyikan dream and an Amazonian nightmare. You might want to check out the warnings from people who have made their own live rock using the "aragocrete" formula or similar formulas. Unless it's cured, pH will shoot up to around 9.0 (which yours did). Even after curing, if it's not sealed, it will tend to keep pH on the high side (7.6-8.0) in many cases.

[KDodds]

Oops, forgot to add, ceramic is inert, and should not cause changes in pH, GH, or KH. If it's contaminated with something else, I guess that something else might possibly effect things, but not ceramic rings/dust, those should not do what you're describing. If the guy was selling a contaminated product, or one that consistently raised pH, I think you'd already be reading about that in his feedback. Just being fair here, since it seems a contamination by a stone made of concrete is more likely.

[brewmaster15]

Easy Test Donato,
Remove the travers stone..put it in a bucket of tap water and test it in few hours.. see if the pH moves up.

You could also take it out of the tank and pour some vinegar on it...my guess is it will foam... and thats a good sign its going to affect the pH by moving it up... same can be tried with the bio media.

As to why it would move so much.. so fast in the tank...no idea.. Maybe If the plants are using any CO2 up that removed one factor that was making your water acidic...then the PH swing up caused by the stone could happen faster..just a thought there
HTH,
al

[srusso]

That test is not a bad idea, though Donato will hate doing it.... it is used as an anchor for a piece of driftwood. so its well dug under all the sand and plants, I know, I put it in... I would test the media first with vinegar just to see, that is a lot easier to get to then the travers stone is...

brewmaster15 - I love your signature!!

[brewmaster15]

brewmaster15 - I love your signature!! thank you!:)

[Eyecandy]

Hi there... Sorry for all your troubles and loss.
I would bet on the travers stone also.. concrete if uncured is nasty in a tank... that combined with changing substrate, changing filter media might definitely affect the ph.. what are the numbers on your other water parameters... Did you get the high ph number before or after noticing dead fish... That might also add to the mix.. Take the stone out and test it and do massive water changes.. How long has the tank been setup??? I noticed that sometimes with a new tank and new sand substrate it takes a while for the ph to settle.. Were the noodles bulk supossed to be new or used?? Either way with anything packaged/repackaged in bulk for future reference I would boil it or bleach and rinse it before use just to be safe.. Keep us posted... HTH Sue:D

[theteflondon]

Ok everyone here is an update on my situation,

1.) I aged some water last night ph went from 6.8 to 7.0

2.) Tank water went from 8.8 to 7.0 since last night...

I didn't remove any media last night or the traverstone... Maybe the guy is right. Maybe his media should of been soaked for 24 to 48 hours before use... He should have that in his listing or sent instructions with the media. I never had to soak any media I have always just rinsed it in dirty aquarium water. Oh well I just thank God I only spent .85 per fish because if I would have spent 2.25 per fish like I almost did then I would have gone out of my mind. I guess I should chalk this one up as a learning experience a $60 learning experience.
The plan from here on out is to keep testing ph every night for the rest of the week. and do a 30% water change on Friday Night or Saturday morning as long as i don't have anymore spikes. If I have another spike I guess the simplest thing to do is remove the ceramic media although I'm not sure if that will help any considering 24 hours later I am pretty much back to normal. I guess we'll see what happens. Hopefully my plants bounce back they are looking a little unhealthy.

Thank you all for your help this is a great forum...

[Eddie]

Ok everyone here is an update on my situation,

1.) I aged some water last night ph went from 6.8 to 7.0

2.) Tank water went from 8.8 to 7.0 since last night...

I didn't remove any media last night or the traverstone... Maybe the guy is right. Maybe his media should of been soaked for 24 to 48 hours before use... He should have that in his listing or sent instructions with the media. I never had to soak any media I have always just rinsed it in dirty aquarium water. Oh well I just thank God I only spent .85 per fish because if I would have spent 2.25 per fish like I almost did then I would have gone out of my mind. I guess I should chalk this one up as a learning experience a $60 learning experience.
The plan from here on out is to keep testing ph every night for the rest of the week. and do a 30% water change on Friday Night or Saturday morning as long as i don't have anymore spikes. If I have another spike I guess the simplest thing to do is remove the ceramic media although I'm not sure if that will help any considering 24 hours later I am pretty much back to normal. I guess we'll see what happens. Hopefully my plants bounce back they are looking a little unhealthy.

Thank you all for your help this is a great forum...


That is very strange about soaking the media. :confused:


Eddie

[theteflondon]

Yeah I know I am just as confused.

[Jhhnn]

It's not the ceramic filter media- it's the chunk of concrete.

The guy who sold you the ceramic media is just trying to cover his behind, give you the impression that he knows what he's talking about, put the problem off onto you.

Pond builders deal with the concrete issue all the time, and have developed ways to deal with it. Aquarists not so much- the recommendation to use slate as weighting material is usually followed, so we don't have to know about problems w/ concrete.

http://www.buildagardenpond.com/build/curinggardenpond.html

Your water and plants have buffered out the effects of the calcium carbonate in the uncured concrete, but couldn't do it fast enough to prevent the pH spike... A bigger chunk probably would have sterilized the tank... if you check the hardness of the water in the aquarium, it's probably a lot higher than what it was before the concrete went in...

[theteflondon]

So the concrete could take more than a week to do this? Its just so coincidental that it happened the day after I put in the media?

[Jhhnn]

So the concrete could take more than a week to do this? Its just so coincidental that it happened the day after I put in the media?

What I know for sure is that there are known, documented issues w/ uncured concrete, not w/ ceramic filter media. Which is not to rule out the ceramic filter media entirely, but rather to point to the concrete...

Water doesn't really circulate in sand substrates. I'd theorize that in doing the water change on saturday that you cleaned the sand, stirred it up, mixing the minerals leaching out of the concrete into the tank water... and that a similar if lesser spike may occur the next time you disturb the sand... That's all conjecture- I wasn't there.

If your water is soft, having a low KH, then the addition of any acid or base will radically affect pH...

[Eddie]

What I know for sure is that there are known, documented issues w/ uncured concrete, not w/ ceramic filter media. Which is not to rule out the ceramic filter media entirely, but rather to point to the concrete...

Water doesn't really circulate in sand substrates. I'd theorize that in doing the water change on saturday that you cleaned the sand, stirred it up, mixing the minerals leaching out of the concrete into the tank water... and that a similar if lesser spike may occur the next time you disturb the sand... That's all conjecture- I wasn't there.

If your water is soft, having a low KH, then the addition of any acid or base will radically affect pH...

Great theory, this is like CSI Simply! Makes sense

Eddie

[theteflondon]

What I know for sure is that there are known, documented issues w/ uncured concrete, not w/ ceramic filter media. Which is not to rule out the ceramic filter media entirely, but rather to point to the concrete...

Water doesn't really circulate in sand substrates. I'd theorize that in doing the water change on saturday that you cleaned the sand, stirred it up, mixing the minerals leaching out of the concrete into the tank water... and that a similar if lesser spike may occur the next time you disturb the sand... That's all conjecture- I wasn't there.

If your water is soft, having a low KH, then the addition of any acid or base will radically affect pH...

Your starting to convert me here. I have no fish in the tank now I am going to do a water change on saturday and then I will check ph again on sunday. If it happens again I know to remove the stone. Question for you though if this does happen again is my sand tainted because of the stone? Will I have to replace it all?

[Jhhnn]

If I'm right, Quartz sand won't absorb the minerals, so it should be OK after being agitated a few times. The leachate from the concrete exists in the water in the spaces between the grains... not in the sand itself.

Time and more water changes/ sand agitation may solve the problem- the concrete will eventually cure, just like it does in ponds, but then there's the issue of concrete aggregate type, the kind or rocks used in the making of the concrete, and the fact that it may contain dyes to color it.

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/aquarium-rocks.htm

We don't generally think of concrete as high tech complex chemistry and physics, but it really is just that, particularly when used in the construction of skyscrapers, dams, etc- even when used in ornamental pavestones.

[JFlo]

Is there a reason to keep the stone? If there is even the slightest chance the stone is the problem once it could happen again. Doesnt seem worth it to me to risk it being in there.

[Don Trinko]

When I'm not sure abought an addition to my tanks I soak it in a bucket of ro water overnight. I check the tds before and after the soak. If the TDS changes very little I consider it safe. Don T.

[srusso]

The stone truly is not the issue, the media was shipped in a box, no bag inside. Don told me that dust was coming out of the box even before it was opened. To make this thread even more "CSI" as someone said a few posts ago, we never know what happen during the shipping process... The media could have been "tested" at the shipping offices. Chemicals used to ensure my brother wasn't getting a big 5lbs box of "candy" wouldn't be that far fetched... OR Anthrax!!! Who knows if they opened the box inspected the media for different chemicals, using different chemicals. Not showing any signs of funny stuff, they dropped the tested media back into the box and sent it on its way...

One thing I didn't ask him was, if the box looked like it had been re-taped.

[Bobears]

The stone truly is not the issue, the media was shipped in a box, no bag inside. Don told me that dust was coming out of the box even before it was opened. To make this thread even more "CSI" as someone said a few posts ago, we never know what happen during the shipping process... The media could have been "tested" at the shipping offices. Chemicals used to ensure my brother wasn't getting a big 5lbs box of "candy" wouldn't be that far fetched... OR Anthrax!!! Who knows if they opened the box inspected the media for different chemicals, using different chemicals. Not showing any signs of funny stuff, they dropped the tested media back into the box and sent it on its way...

One thing I didn't ask him was, if the box looked like it had been re-taped.

Not to inflame, but that's a whole lot of presuppositions.

[theteflondon]

Sorry it took so long for this update I did my water change on saturday and made sure I dug into the sand really good around that stone and no PH spike this time PH has been 6.8 ever since the spike.

[Roxanne]

Well I did change my gravel to sand in the process I had to anchor a piece of drift wood to a paving stone I did that a little more than a week ago the stone is completely berried under the sand could it have taken a week to affect the water?


Quickrete Play Sand the stone was a 1'X1' stone you would use to make a walk way it was called traverstone.


Have you still got this 'concrete' in your tank Teflon?

Roxanne

[theteflondon]

Have you still got this 'concrete' in your tank Teflon?

Roxanne

Yes I do.

[Roxanne]

..I only ask cos my husbands a builder and I tried all sorts of his "builders crap" to make tank features with....always ended up with problems in those tanks...I added slate once and got fine red deposits in the tank over time...and I scrubbed that slate till IT bled....just to illustrate that rocks and concrete are porous enough to create a problem(as jhhnn above pointed out...)

so, quite aside from any ph issue you may have/not have from the change of substrate, I'd be suspicious of what that concrete will do over time....the driftwood will eventually sink anyway....I'd be inclined to use one of those disgusting little tank ornaments to weigh it down until it sinks...just thoughts Mr Gotti...all due respect:D

Roxanne

[theteflondon]

..I only ask cos my husbands a builder and I tried all sorts of his "builders crap" to make tank features with....always ended up with problems in those tanks...I added slate once and got fine red deposits in the tank over time...and I scrubbed that slate till IT bled....just to illustrate that rocks and concrete are porous enough to create a problem(as jhhnn above pointed out...)

so, quite aside from any ph issue you may have/not have from the change of substrate, I'd be suspicious of what that concrete will do over time....the driftwood will eventually sink anyway....I'd be inclined to use one of those disgusting little tank ornaments to weigh it down until it sinks...just thoughts Mr Gotti...all due respect:D

Roxanne

:D I have been keeping a close watch over the conditions since this happened and I hope to be able to buy fish again soon however it may not be economically possible for a while :( in any case there are 2 otto cats enjoying a 110 gal tank.