Using Potassium Permanganate aka PP

[brewmaster15]

All,
Many here know that PP is a chemical to be used with great care, but others may not. I've been asked to suggest that anyone thinking of using PP really take the time to learn about its recommended uses and doses...seeing on how you can literally kill your fish or melt your plants I think its a wise suggestion.. So some reference material for you of the abundant material and advice out there..

-al
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=518756
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67612
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=65072
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=64845
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=62806
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=60125
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=58531
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=57431
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=55607
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=50317
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54033
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54488
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=52843
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=51047
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=48655
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=46205
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=46473
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=44877
http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=43056


and off site references...
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/potper.shtml
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA032
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potassium%20permanganate.htm

Just as a general reference...the work of the University of Florida is as follows..(source...http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA032)

The Use of Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds1 (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA032#FOOTNOTE_1)

Andrew M. Lazur2 (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA032#FOOTNOTE_2)
Potassium permanganate, KMnO 4 , is a chemical oxidizing agent that will react with any organic matter in a pond including algae, bacteria, fish, particulate and dissolved organic, and organic bottom sediments. It has been used in fish ponds to treat common fish pathogens such as gill parasites and external bacterial and fungal infections. Contrary to some reports, potassium permanganate does not add significant amounts of oxygen to water and can actually decrease dissolved oxygen concentrations by killing algae that produce much of the oxygen in ponds.
Treatment Rate

Common treatment rates are 2 parts per million (ppm) or milligrams per liter (mg/L) for an indefinite pond application or 10 mg/L for a 10-minute tank treatment. Actual treatment rates in ponds will vary depending on the amount of organic matter, or organic load, in the water. As with any chemical treatment, it is crucial to accurately estimate the volume of water that is to be treated.
How to Estimate Water Volume

Potassium permanganate is an expensive treatment. Therefore, it is important to properly estimate water volume to achieve both a cost-effective and biologically effective treatment. Underestimating water volume will result in an insufficient concentration of chemical, and retreatment would be necessary. Overestimating water volume can result in a greater-than-desired concentration of chemical, and may injure or even kill fish. Pond volume is measured in acre-feet (surface acreage multiplied by the average water depth in feet). One acre-foot is equal to one surface acre with a depth of one foot.
Estimating pond volume can be difficult when a pond has an irregular shape and varying water depth. The surface area of a square or rectangular pond can be easily estimated by multiplying the pond length by the pond width. Your local Soil Conservation Service or County Extension Service Office can provide assistance in determining pond acreage for irregularly- shaped ponds.
The average water depth for ponds with a sloped and flat bottom can be determined by averaging the shallowest and deepest water depths. For example, a pond with a sloping flat bottom that has a maximum depth of six feet and a minimum depth of four feet would have an average depth of five feet. Determining the average depth for ponds with uneven bottoms and widely varying depths requires measurement of water depth at multiple locations in the pond using a simple grid or zig-zag sampling approach, in which all areas of the pond are measured.
How to Calculate Amount of Chemical Required

An important factor to remember is that 1 ppm (or 1 mg/L) is equal to 2.7 pounds of dry chemical per acre-foot of water. A sample calculation to determine the amount of potassium permanganate required to treat a pond at a 2 mg/L concentration is as follows:
Example:

You have estimated a pond to be 5 surface acres, and the pond has an average depth of 5 feet.


5 acres × 5 foot average depth = 25 acre-feet of water.
25 acre-feet × 2.7 lbs/acre-foot = 67.5 lbs of potassium permanganate to obtain a concentration of 1 mg/L in the pond.
67.5 lbs of potassium permanganate × 2 = 135 lbs of potassium permanganate to obtain a concentration of 2 mg/L in the pond.

A 2 mg/L treatment is usually effective for ponds with relatively clear water. Potassium permanganate reacts with organic matter and becomes neutralized and unavailable to treat the target parasite. The greater the amount of organic matter in a pond, the more potassium permanganate required to achieve the desired chemical concentration. Therefore, a pond with moderate to heavy algal blooms will require a higher treatment rate to neutralize the organic matter in the pond and still achieve the desired concentration of 2 mg/L.
One popular method of treatment is to begin with an application of 2 mg/L potassium permanganate. If the pond remains pink to purple in color for 8--12 hours, then an effective treatment is assumed to have occurred, and no additional chemical is required. However, if within a 12-hour period, the pond turns brown, then an additional 1--2 mg/L treatment is required, depending on how quickly the pond turned brown. It is recommended that treatment begin in the morning so that the pond can be watched for the next 8- to 12-hour period, and any color change can be easily detected.
How to Determine Permanganate Demand

Another method to estimate the amount of potassium permanganate required for effective treatment is to determine the potassium permanganate demand or amount of chemical required to react with all the organic matter in a water sample. This procedure measures the 15-minute demand. This value is then multiplied by 2 to give the recommended treatment rate. The 15-minute demand is determined as follows:


Prepare a 1,000 mg/L stock solution by adding 1,000 milligrams or 1 gram of potassium permanganate to 1 liter of distilled water and mix thoroughly.
Collect five 1-liter samples of the pond water.
Prepare a series of test treatments. Add 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 milliliters (mL) of the stock solution (prepared in Step 1) into the five 1-liter samples. Mix thoroughly.
Wait 15 minutes.
The test treatment that has the slightest faint pink color after 15 minutes is the correct 15-minute potassium permanganate demand. If there is a question as to which rate has a faint pink color, choose the lower treatment rate.
Multiply the 15-minute demand treatment by 2 to get the proper treatment rate for the pond.

Example:

A series of 1-liter pond water samples was treated with potassium permanganate stock solution. After 15 minutes, the 2 mg/L treatment turned brown, but the 4 mg/L treatment still had a faint pink color. The 4 mg/L treatment is therefore the 15-minute demand. Multiplying the 4 mg/L demand treatment by 2 gives a recommended pond treatment rate of 8 mg/L.
How to Apply Chemical

Potassium permanganate is commercially available in crystal or powder form. it should be mixed with water before use, and then applied evenly over the entire pond surface to ensure an effective treatment. For small ponds (less than one acre), application of the chemical can be achieved by first adding a small portion of the total amount of chemical required for treatment to water in a five-gallon plastic bucket, and then broadcasting this solution over the surface of the pond while walking around the pond. This process is repeated until all of the required chemical is added to the pond. This method works well when the chemical can be dispersed evenly over the entire surface area of a pond from the shore. In larger ponds (larger than one acre), a boat equipped with a large take or container and motor is recommended for distributing the chemical. The chemical mixture can be applied by means of a submersible pump or gravity fed from the container into the prop wash of the boat motor. Uniform application can be achieved by driving the boar over the entire pond surface.
Precautions When Using Potassium Permanganate

A few helpful reminders and precautions before using potassium permanganate include:


Be sure you have a problem that warrants treatment. Potassium permanganate is expensive. For example, it cost approximately $80 to treat a one-acre pond, with an average depth of 5 feet, at a 4 mg/L concentration. Have your fish properly diagnosed and carefully consider the cost.
Potassium permanganate is a strong oxidizer and can burn skin, eyes, and other body parts. It will stain you and everything it touches brown. Always use safety protective gear including rubber gloves, goggles and old clothes. A dust mask is advisable to prevent irritation to your respiratory tract.
Be sure to estimate water volume accurately, and disperse the chemical evenly over the entire pond to prevent hot spots, areas of the pond with excessive amounts of chemical.
Potassium permanganate can kill algae. Low oxygen conditions can occur following treatment. Be prepared to aerate after treatment.
Frequent treatment can harm fish. Wait at least four days before repeating treatment. If fish do not respond to treatment, reevaluate them to confirm the diagnosis.

Footnotes

1.
This document is FA23, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original publication date June, 1992. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web Site at http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.
2.
Andrew M. Lazur, assistant professor, Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, 32611.

[brewmaster15]

Please share any scientific documents related to PP here and also feel free to share your successes and failures with this chemical.

Thanks ,
al

[MSD]

Thanks Al, great info.

[poconogal]

Excellent sticky, Al!

Here's my PP failure:

My tank was PP'd twice, a day apart. Two days prior to the PP treatment I did a large WC, approx. 70% and cleaned my filter, wiped down tank walls and floor. On the day of treatment I did another large WC, driftwood was removed and I rinsed my filter. Tank was BB at the time. PP was dosed into the tank using a dropper, I believe at 2 drops per gallon (I had someone experienced in PP treatment helping so I'm not 100% sure). After about an hour to hour and a half, the water turned brownish, which supposedly indicates a high organic load. Treatment was repeated the following day and the water stayed pinkish/violet for about two to two and a half hours. For treatment to be effective, I've been told that water should remain pink or violet colored for about 4 hours. During the first treatment, 5 of my Rummy Noses died. The rest were very stressed but survived. The heavy breathing problem that my Leopard had did not change.

I've been told that a PP solution is good for quite some time as long as its stored properly, in a dark container not exposed to daylight. However, I don't think its possible that I could have such high organics in a BB tank that had been cleaned, had prior massive WCs and 2 filter cleanings that it interfered with the effectiveness of the PP treatment. I have since read while doing research online that only SMALL batches of PP should be made up at a time as it has a very short effectiveness time. I believe that was the problem with the PP treatment failure in my case. FWIW, I'll stick to products that were specifically made for aquarium use, I have no wish to kill any more of my fish, even if little Tetras that I'd had for years.

[MostlyDiscus]

Drinking and driving dont mix=Potassium Permanganate and formalin(Quick Cure) DO NOT MIX.

[poconogal]

I came across this while researching various meds. Since currently there seems to be an increased interest in the use of PP, I thought I'd post this link. I think its informative, it explains different doses and tests that can be conducted prior to its use.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/permoxyn/index.htm

[seanyuki]

Hi Connie,


I use the PP crystals from the pharmacy section.....not sure the Kordon ones are concentrated .


Cheers
Francis:)

I came across this while researching various meds. Since currently there seems to be an increased interest in the use of PP, I thought I'd post this link. I think its informative, it explains different doses and tests that can be conducted prior to its use.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/permoxyn/index.htm

[poconogal]

Hi Francis. Don't know if they are or aren't, I just posted that link for the info it contains re pretesting, dosage and usage of Kordon's product, which sounds like its a pre-mix. I have no interest in using PP again.

[MSD]

Kordon is a premixed solution, the concentration is 3.87 ppm I believe, higher then the 2 ppm bath recommended. Adjust the dose accordingly.

Once burned twice shy I see with PP use. How many ever got sick drinking?? How many gave it up right after? :D

[shawnhu]

I love this link by Paul.

http://www.bidka.org/pp1.shtml

Great info on this Al, I think it's much needed.

Now let's get one in on the use of Salt!

[poconogal]

Kordon is a premixed solution, the concentration is 3.87 ppm I believe, higher then the 2 ppm bath recommended. Adjust the dose accordingly.

Once burned twice shy I see with PP use. How many ever got sick drinking?? How many gave it up right after? :D
I'd be one of those who gave it up right after. Had a TWO DAY hangover when I was 14. Never, ever had a hangover again. :D

[frenchie100]

This is for anyone who has had trouble finding PP.

I had a really hard time finding some until I contacted the ordering department of Sears:

Potassium permanganate
Part # 3441599
Division # 42
Source #625

Paid $14.59 including shipping.

I found this in one of the links Al posted on top. I thought I should have some PP on hand in case of an emergency, but at this point would be too scared to use it! :o

Hope that helps!

-Julie

[Elite Aquaria]

Al,

Great post

[nc0gnet0]

PP is actually quite cheap, I used it often when dealing with my ponds, You can get a lifetime supply for a discus tank for under 15 bucks on ebay in the powder form. It's not for the beginner, however, but when used correctly is a very effective treatment. As was posted earlier, making a stock solution is the way to go, for aquarium purposes I strongly suggest measuring in ml with a syringe that you can purchase for a few bucks at any tractor supply store. Whenever using PP make sure you have plenty of air, and some ST handy. If you do use it in your tank, be warned, you will kill all your benefical bacteria. Better to use it as a dip or a bath in a QT setting.

[nc0gnet0]

To Make A Stock Solution:

Throughly wash and dry a 1 liter (1000 mL) poly soda bottle.
Fill the bottle half full of hot tap water.
Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle.
Cap the bottle and shake very well for one minute.
Let the resulting purple-black solution stand for 10 to 15 minutes. Shake occasionally.
Invert the bottle and inspect the bottom and sides for any PP crystals which have not dissolved. Continue shaking until all have dissolved.
Top-off the bottle with additional tap water (hot, cold, warm... no matter) and shake once more to mix.


Dose Table Using The Stock Solution Created Above

1 ppm = 0.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
2 ppm = 0.50 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
3 ppm = 0.75 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
4 ppm = 1.0 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
5 ppm = 1.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
6 ppm = 1.5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
20 ppm = 5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon

I would never dose above 2 ppm. Never leave a fish being dosed with PP alone, monitor for signs of stress. When active PP will turn the water a pink/purple color. If you have alot of disolved organics in the water, PP might turn brown before the treatment is over. If this happens you will need to redose the PP. Any dechlorinator will de-activate PP, efectively turning it off. Always add oxygen during a PP dose as it can and does remove oxygen from the water (how much again depends on your disolved oraganic load.

[shawnhu]

Thanks nc0gnet0 for posting those directions for creating your stock solution.

If you do the math, the formular is exactly that of the one posted by Paul at BIDKA. What I find is that making a stock solution of 1000ml might be too much for some folks. I do like the teaspoon approach, as I do not own a gram scale myself.

Building upon that, one could make a stock solution however they please, as long as they follow the formula.

For example, if I wanted a stock solution of 1ml/gallon of 2ppm, I would do the following:

1000ml/75grams = 2 drops per gallon
10000ml/75grams = 20(1ml) drops per gallon
133.3ml/1gram = 1ml per gallon

1/4 teaspoon = 1.75grams of PP
233.3ml/(1/4 teaspoon) = stock stock solution for 1ml/gallon of 2ppm PP

All you need for this stock solution is a 233ml bottle, and a 1/4 teaspoon measuring device and you're done. If you have a glass CokaCola bottle, it's 237ml, and the 1/4teaspoon can be found in anywhere baking goods are found.

Hope this helps.

Shawn

[gwrace]

I know this may be a bit off topic but there appears to be a genuine concern when treating with PP for the correct dosage. To do that you have to know how much actual water is in your tank. These site links help to do just that. I apologize if these have been posted before or are repeats of other discussions.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article35.html

http://www.aquariumfish.net/information/aquarium_arithmetic.htm

http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html

[gwrace]

Here is another one that I did not see. Sorry if it's a repeat.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa027

[darkknight87]

Has anyone else noticed that is the active ingredient in Jungle's Water Clearer drops? I was thinking of using some of it but now I don't know that that would be a good idea? Is the amount in the Water Clarifier much smaller than as a treatment for parasites? Has anyone tried using it?

[Bigspearo]

Guys just want to know if anyone has had happen to them what happened to me.........I made the PP mix up as per the above instructions plus rang Rod Lewis (he must be sick of me calling him) who advised me to treat the fish three times.
I treated my Discus with PP the first time and they were fine.
I treated them 3 days later with Trichlorfon and they were fine
3 days later treated them with PP again and after 3.5 hours in the water all the bigger Discus started laying over on their sides, i put the Hydrogen Peroxide in 1ml/30 litres which oxidised all the PP but the fish looked even worse so eventually i changed the whole water and after 5-10 minutes my Discus came back good, I rang Rod and told him what happened and he said he has never heard of this happening before, it was really close im really lucky i didnt lose my Penang Eruptions.

Thanks
Scotty

[fluke discus]

Thanks for your Info...

[TURQ64]

Drugs have half life's in water that depending on drug, can take months to completely degrade. This is quite true with antibiotics,etc..There are also a good handful of chemicals that are NOT safe to mix with PP. So, without realizing it, the above info is a case of cross medication, which is never a good thing to enter into...
Properly administered, PP is a valuable tool in the fish husbandry industry..JMO, Gary

[seanyuki]

nice write up Gary.......perhaps have a thread .............two chemicals should not use at same time......got this book .......handbook of drugs and chemicals used in the treatment of fish diseases by Nelson Herwig and worth getting it.......mentioned some drugs/chemicals should not use together.



Drugs have half life's in water that depending on drug, can take months to completely degrade. This is quite true with antibiotics,etc..There are also a good handful of chemicals that are NOT safe to mix with PP. So, without realizing it, the above info is a case of cross medication, which is never a good thing to enter into...
Properly administered, PP is a valuable tool in the fish husbandry industry..JMO, Gary

[rostick555]

Hey guys I wanted to run this by you because this is my first time using pp. I have my pp and gram scale coming this week and from what I understand the dosage is .0038 x volume of aquarium ( ie. 45 gallon) x 2= 2ppm right? Now that is supposed to last 4 hrs but if it runs brown in one hr dose an additional 2 ppm and if it runs out in 1 hr again then this is where I have my main question some people say add 2ppm more and others say 6ppm will damage the gills I am treating for flukes BTW. And then if it runs out again then repeat in 2 days after fish recover? Any and all input is welcome please!

[DiscusDrew]

I work for sears and anyone needing PP can achieve it through us as a Source, just an FYI. We stock it for the cleaning of iron removers but I buy it from us simply to clean out my holding barrells. I dont know that I ever intend to use PP as a treatment simply because of its potency. I understand the desire to as it is a VERY effective anti-bacterial but I believe if a fish was diagnosed early on that some other less invasive drugs can possibly be used instead. That said, if anyone needs it let me know, I can send it to your local Sears Store or possibly ship it to you for free as that is possible for me.

Thanks! Drew

[DiscusDrew]

Found out today that our current stock of straight PP is clearanced!! That means it is 19.97 for a 5lb jar of it, its usually around triple that. Anyone interested should let me or your local Sears know immediately. I will see if it is still orderable tomorrow and get back to any interested.

[Eddie]

A 5 lb jar of PP will last a life time! LOL Actually, 8 life times. Hahahha

[DiscusDrew]

True story, but its incredibly cheap for how much your getting :)

[Teshi]

Guys just want to know if anyone has had happen to them what happened to me.........I made the PP mix up as per the above instructions plus rang Rod Lewis (he must be sick of me calling him) who advised me to treat the fish three times.
I treated my Discus with PP the first time and they were fine.
I treated them 3 days later with Trichlorfon and they were fine
3 days later treated them with PP again and after 3.5 hours in the water all the bigger Discus started laying over on their sides, i put the Hydrogen Peroxide in 1ml/30 litres which oxidised all the PP but the fish looked even worse so eventually i changed the whole water and after 5-10 minutes my Discus came back good, I rang Rod and told him what happened and he said he has never heard of this happening before, it was really close im really lucky i didnt lose my Penang Eruptions.

Thanks
Scotty

So when/if you use PP, what are the signs to watch for in the fish? I've been reading all these threads and they just basically say "watch for signs of stress" What should you be looking for? At what point would you add H2O2? I mean do you wait til they lay on their sides? And if so, how long would you let them lay there?

[xxbenjamminxx]

So when/if you use PP, what are the signs to watch for in the fish? I've been reading all these threads and they just basically say "watch for signs of stress" What should you be looking for? At what point would you add H2O2? I mean do you wait til they lay on their sides? And if so, how long would you let them lay there?

I know this an older thread but have been searching for this info without any luck...... Sooo if anyone could tell me any more signs to watch for while using PP other then fish laying on their sides it would be appreciated. I am not about to use this treatment but would like to know just incase I need to someday I know what i will be watching for. Also at out local Menards I found the powdered PP for under $30 for around 3lbs. Thats seems like a lot to buy for my personal needs, is there other places that sell smaller quantities?

[Keith Perkins]

You can get some from me Ben...I bought the 3 lb container and now have a 5 generation supply. I also have an adapted U.S. measures only version of the instruction from BIDKA I can e-mail to you, send me your e-mail via PM if your interested. They probably have the other signs to look for in those instructions. I'm guessing clamping up and hiding may be on the list, but don't remember for sure. I'd look now, but we're about to leave for a 4th of July thing. Honestly if you use PP as directed I don't think you'll see any signs of distress anyway. I've probably used a dozen times without and adverse affects, except for the one time I used in on 1 or 2 inch fish and double up the dosage used to 4 ppm.

[Brent1972]

BIDKA instructions :http://bidka.org/pp1.shtml

[perea1419]

hey guys i know that this was posted before but can someone give me the direct link to buy the PP

thanx

[seanyuki]

Just sharing 1 lb of Potassium Permanganate US $16.99

http://www.koienterprise.com/Parasitic-Koi-Medications/Potassium-Permanganate-p-71.html


hey guys i know that this was posted before but can someone give me the direct link to buy the PP

thanx

[perea1419]

Just sharing 1 lb of Potassium Permanganate US $16.99

http://www.koienterprise.com/Parasitic-Koi-Medications/Potassium-Permanganate-p-71.html

Thanx I will be ordering this today

[joshvito]

To Make A Stock Solution:

Throughly wash and dry a 1 liter (1000 mL) poly soda bottle.
Fill the bottle half full of hot tap water.
Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle.
Cap the bottle and shake very well for one minute.
Let the resulting purple-black solution stand for 10 to 15 minutes. Shake occasionally.
Invert the bottle and inspect the bottom and sides for any PP crystals which have not dissolved. Continue shaking until all have dissolved.
Top-off the bottle with additional tap water (hot, cold, warm... no matter) and shake once more to mix.


Dose Table Using The Stock Solution Created Above

1 ppm = 0.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
2 ppm = 0.50 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
3 ppm = 0.75 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
4 ppm = 1.0 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
5 ppm = 1.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
6 ppm = 1.5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
20 ppm = 5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon

I would never dose above 2 ppm. Never leave a fish being dosed with PP alone, monitor for signs of stress. When active PP will turn the water a pink/purple color. If you have alot of disolved organics in the water, PP might turn brown before the treatment is over. If this happens you will need to redose the PP. Any dechlorinator will de-activate PP, efectively turning it off. Always add oxygen during a PP dose as it can and does remove oxygen from the water (how much again depends on your disolved oraganic load.

I mixed this solution.
I then added it to a newly WCed 19.5gallons of water column. The water turned yellow/brown after I added 10mL's. So I added 10 more mL's. Water is still not pink.

I haven't put any fish in yet, should I add more solution? How much organics can be in the tank? I wiped down all 5 sides and changed 95% of the water before dosing.

[joshvito]

I mixed this solution.
I then added it to a newly WCed 19.5gallons of water column. The water turned yellow/brown after I added 10mL's. So I added 10 more mL's. Water is still not pink.

I haven't put any fish in yet, should I add more solution? How much organics can be in the tank? I wiped down all 5 sides and changed 95% of the water before dosing.

I just realized I had a plant weight in the tank with the PP. I'm guessing that since PP is an oxidizer, it probably reacts with metals in the plant weight. The tank is now covered in a dusty rust colored particulate. Guess I'll be doing a large WC and attempt to mix again later.

[nc0gnet0]

Make sure there is no dechloranator in the tank prior to dosing

[joshvito]

Make sure there is no dechloranator in the tank prior to dosing

Any help on how de-chlorinators work. E.g. if I do a wc and dose the appropriate amount of Seachem Safe. How long do I wait for the de-chlorinator ?

Also, after I neutralize the pp with h peroxide, is it safe to put my hand in the water.

[nc0gnet0]

The dechlor will neutralize the PP just the same as the H202 would, so if you have any residual dechlor in the tank when you add the pp it will be neutralized. Better to use the PP prior to the WC if your chlorine/chloramine levels are to high for the fish to take a WC without dechlorinator, or do a water change with aged water prior to treatment.

As for your hands, if your fish can take it your hands should be ok ;)

[joshvito]

The dechlor will neutralize the PP just the same as the H202 would, so if you have any residual dechlor in the tank when you add the pp it will be neutralized. Better to use the PP prior to the WC if your chlorine/chloramine levels are to high for the fish to take a WC without dechlorinator, or do a water change with aged water prior to treatment.

As for your hands, if your fish can take it your hands should be ok ;)

Waited 24hrs w/o using a dechlor. Not I got purple water.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/21/e9ypequ5.jpg

[joshvito]

Will PP help with internal worms?

[Kal-El]

Will PP help with internal worms?
No only external....

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I just want to add to the conversion of PP.

Below is 3 different fomulations and the "Gram" weights are different from what I see. Which one is correct?

Volumes Measured in Litres

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 20 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 litres at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.



Volumes Measured in US Gallons

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 75 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 US Gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.




Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 90 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 Imperial (UK) gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.

And then Rick posted his measurement with another gram weight.

"Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle."

I was discussing this with some of the guys and before someone else gets confused on this, lets get some clarification.

Jeff

[William Palumbo]

Thanks for posting Jeff. I have a bag of dry powder, and I would like to make up a stock solution, but I have no scale. I need the measurements of the dry PP in Tsp. or Tbs. in relation to water...Bill

[joshvito]

I just want to add to the conversion of PP.

Below is 3 different fomulations and the "Gram" weights are different from what I see. Which one is correct?

Volumes Measured in Litres

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 20 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 litres at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.



Volumes Measured in US Gallons

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 75 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 US Gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.




Volumes Measured in Imperial (UK) Gallons

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 90 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 Imperial (UK) gallons at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.

And then Rick posted his measurement with another gram weight.

"Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle."

I was discussing this with some of the guys and before someone else gets confused on this, lets get some clarification.

Jeff
All 3 are correct.

The gram measurements are different because he is giving drops per 1 unit. Liters, us gallons, and UK gallons are all different sizes, so the grams needed to make the 1L stock solution will be different.

One thing to keep in mind, the
More concentrated you make the stock solution, the more narrow your margin of error.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[joshvito]

Thanks for posting Jeff. I have a bag of dry powder, and I would like to make up a stock solution, but I have no scale. I need the measurements of the dry PP in Tsp. or Tbs. in relation to water...Bill

There is a conversion in the previous post/quote. I suggest getting a gram kitchen scale for your fish room. Its worth the $10, especially when dealing with chemicals and hundreds of dollars of fish. It will enable you to be more accurate and less worry.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks for posting Jeff. I have a bag of dry powder, and I would like to make up a stock solution, but I have no scale. I need the measurements of the dry PP in Tsp. or Tbs. in relation to water...Bill

Bill,

I would follow Ricks equation on this at;

"Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle." assuming he is refering to a 1 liter bottle.

What threw me off was that all stated, to a 1 litre bottle. But not I get it, thanks Josh and everyone.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

There is a conversion in the previous post/quote. I suggest getting a gram kitchen scale for your fish room. Its worth the $10, especially when dealing with chemicals and hundreds of dollars of fish. It will enable you to be more accurate and less worry.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

Very true on owning a scale. I use it for everything fish related and kitchen related. Maybe the US will convert to metric someday and we can all understand a universal measurement with breaking it down for the US.

[Second Hand Pat]

Jeff, for what it's worth I do the middle set of instructions for US gallons and yes, a gram scale is most handy.

[Perlan]

I will use PP for the first time this week.
and I've read in quite a lot about it. but one slowly because I do not get wise on the pH importance. some say you should be below pH 7 and it's getting really toxic to fish above pH 7.5, while others say that the pH does not matter.
what do you say on this?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Perlan,
pH is probably the least important factor with its use, IMO. We have many members from very different areas and pH levels in their water. . I would be more concerned with the concentration of PP you use and the duration you have chosen to use it for. Other factors include if your water source has other chemicals added like chlorine and chloramines. ...You mentioned that you have read alot....which is great! Just be very careful when you use it as to how its used and do not leave the fish unattended...Having hydrogen peroxide on hand and being able to do an emergency waterr change is a must with PP treatments...especially when you are new to it.

Hth.,
Al

[brewmaster15]

ps.. my well water aged has a pH 7.6 to 7.8 and no issues with using pp.

-al

[Perlan]

Hi Perlan,
pH is probably the least important factor with its use, IMO. We have many members from very different areas and pH levels in their water. . I would be more concerned with the concentration of PP you use and the duration you have chosen to use it for. Other factors include if your water source has other chemicals added like chlorine and chloramines. ...You mentioned that you have read alot....which is great! Just be very careful when you use it as to how its used and do not leave the fish unattended...Having hydrogen peroxide on hand and being able to do an emergency waterr change is a must with PP treatments...especially when you are new to it.

Hth.,
Al

Hey. thanks for the reply.
I have no chemicals in the water. just run with clean Rewers Osmosis water.
I will run the course of treatment in a 222 liters aquarium, and has 500 liters of water prepared and temperate. partly in order to finish quickly, but also for water change right after. will run a course of 21 days, with re-dosing of PP every third day. will use me out a 2ppm solution.

[shawnhu]

That's a lot of water. Hope you have a lot of PP. :)

[Skip]

That's a lot of water. Hope you have a lot of PP. :)

SHAWN! making an appearance!! welcome back~

[shawnhu]

SHAWN! making an appearance!! welcome back~

Once in a while Skip. :)

[virtueone11]

I have lost discus using PP and would avoid using it as far as possible and instead do regular WC and maintain good filteration.Remember disease in discus are due to mainly poor water conditions and feed most of the times.PP have to used with great caution and I would rather use salt dips

[ozone]

Does anyone know what happens when you put hot water in a soda bottle and shake it…this is dangerous..beware!!

[plecocicho]

So, this will be my first treamtent with pp. What signs of discomfort must i look in diskus to prevent damage? Can be pp treatment used in a tank with driftwood, or is it better to remove it first? How many times must i repeat it in case of flukes? And last, i would need 10 ml for 100liter, according to the upper conversion?

[danotaylor]

Lots of good info here on treating fish for external probs with PP. I am assuming it would be an effect way to "clean" plants prior to introducing them to a discus display but I have not found any specific info regarding plant dips. I would like to secure some anubias & java fern varieties to the wood pieces in my display. Would a 2-4ppm dip for 15 minutes be sufficient to QT the plants before introducing them? Thx

[Filip]

Lots of good info here on treating fish for external probs with PP. I am assuming it would be an effect way to "clean" plants prior to introducing them to a discus display but I have not found any specific info regarding plant dips. I would like to secure some anubias & java fern varieties to the wood pieces in my display. Would a 2-4ppm dip for 15 minutes be sufficient to QT the plants before introducing them? Thx

I have spent hours and hours searching for a valid answer on this question after my discus got some parasitic infection (propably Velvet / Oodinum )from a damned plant Daniel . I ve found Very few if any valid info on this subject on the whole net.

The most reliable answer I got from Koi forums (they are BTW , always the cutting edge when it comes to fish science , mainly due to the very high prices involved in Koi keeping hobby ) were to dip the plants in a 25 ppm solution for more than 10 hours Maintaining that same dose by redosing if PP gets brown .
Why do we need the solution that strong for that long ? To hopfully kill the Nuke -resistant cysts of parasitic protozoas.

You can also use bleach/water solution in 1/19 ratio and dip the plants for 2 minutes for the same purpose instead of PP .

[Tuterosso]

i use 1 pill 100mg on bucket 10L for 15-20min and have clean plants

[danotaylor]

Thank you Filip & Tuterosso!
Filip you mentioned in the other post you made that both treatments are harsh on the plants. Can you elaborate in what way? Does it scorch the leaves and roots? Is the damage permanent? Thanks mate

[Filip]

Thank you Filip & Tuterosso!
Filip you mentioned in the other post you made that both treatments are harsh on the plants. Can you elaborate in what way? Does it scorch the leaves and roots? Is the damage permanent? Thanks mate

It burns palnt leaves and roots and you can expect partial defoliage in the initial period of planting. But the plant recovers quickly and starts shooting new leaves and roots again if conditions are optimal .
Some of the more delicate and weaker plants may completely die off , but luckily we rarely use those for our discus tanks .

[danotaylor]

Ok great, cheers mate 🇦🇺