Help on Automatic Water Change Systems

[dean9922]

just wondering if anyone has plans on how to do automatic water changes on a daily basis. I've checked sites and am not sure "what" you would need
to get the job done. I have a 100 gallon tank i'm just setting up now and it would be nice to have some type of auto water change system hooked up. If someone could post pictures or give a list of what you would need for this, that would be great. I am new (2 months) into discus again after a long layoff and would like to make water changes easier as I am running a 30 gallon but now with this bigger tank , i can already see it is going to be a lot more work with the bigger tank.
Thank you in advance.....

[Consigliere]

There are any number of designs out there for auto water change, hop onto some forums and search. www.monsterfishkeepers.com is a great site for DIY and automation projects. It really depends on how automatic you want it. Do you want it fully automated? If so then you are looking at a situation where you would want:

1) something to hold tap water and circulate it for about a day to make sure pH doesn't change much when you put it in the tank(may not be required if you have good tap water conditions or have it filtered in some way)

2) drip system that will drip house water into your holding tank. Typically done with an irrigation drip regulator/needle valve or some combination link that.

3) powerhead or pump which is engaged by a float valve that when the water level reaches certain height will turn the pump on and add the new water

4) overflow in a sump that will allow the extra water to drain to a house drain or another float valve system with pump


This of course assumes you have a sump system and all the necessary plumbing and household drain/water connections close at hand

[calihawker]

Well, there's automated and then there's FULLY automated. This is something I've spent a lot of time trying to perfect and I've found that in most practical applications FULL automation just isn't feasable

I do fully automated water changes in my 60 gallon grow out tank. The reason I can do it is number 1, I have almost perfect water for discus coming out of my tap. PH 7.1, KH and GH less than 1, no chloramines. 2 it's a bare bottom tank with the bottom slanted so the crap and uneaten food ends up in the corner where the pump is. In a normal setup, you just HAVE to siphon stuff off the bottom and of course that takes the automation out of it.

So for me it's just a matter of aging 50 gallons for 24 hrs. and use pumps, timers and solenoid valves to do the water change.

Let me know what you're dealing with as far as your setup and what your water conditions are and I'd be glad to help.


Steve

[dean9922]

thanks for answering my post.....i have a plywood tank i've built and what it is i want to do is this....
i want to have a timer etc hooked to a pump to drain about 1/3 to 1/2 of the tank into a drain i have close to the tank, at that point i want to have another pump or whatever is needed to be able to pump the new water into the tank. I have no clue how to go about doing this...it sound like it should be simple....40 gallon out and 40 gallons back into tank.....of course with aged and treated water....i just can't find any info on this. Was on GARF.com and it is very vague what you would need to do this. Any help would be great...thanks

[ashaysathe]

There are pretty creative ideas on the forum. This is something I have recently read:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69031

also its this from a very good friend of mine. This is great too

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61034

--Ashay

[dean9922]

thanks ashaysathe

[calihawker]

I saw your post over in the planted section. Great job :thumbsup:

So here's an outline of what I do. First of all it's important to have some kind of controller that you can time events to within one minute accuracy. I use a neptune systems aquacontroller. With the aquacontroller you can control much more than just timers so it's a pretty cool thing to have. You can probably get an older one used for cheap on ebay. The important thing about the aquacontroller is to use the direct connect AC box and not the x-10 modules.

Next you need a solenoid valve to hook up to your tap or your RO or both. Here's a picture of it on the barrel I use for aging. The little red box is the solenoid. There is tubing coming from the tap, I have it split off to feed from both hot and cold with a couple little brass valves. (hope that's clear in the pic) They go into the solenoid, through the barrel and then a mechanical float switch. The float switch serves as an overflow safety measure. You can find the solenoids at McMaster Carr for around 30 bucks.



http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/calihawker/DSC00664.jpg


Lastly I use a couple magdrive pumps, one in the tank and one in the barrel, to remove and replace water.

The sequence of events is programmed into the aquacontroller and look something like this.
Tank pump on for 10 minutes, drains 50% tank water
Barrel pump on for 35 minutes to fill tank (pumping uphill)
Tap water on for 1hr to refill barrel for next water change.

There are some plumbing issues that will be unique to your situation. Most notably, anti siphon type issues but these are easily worked out.

If you need to add a conditioner like Prime to remove chloramines, you can use an Ehiem liquidoser. It should have the capacity to autodose the W/C water for at least a week or more.


So I hope that helps!!!


Stev

[dean9922]

hi Calihawker
thanks for the info and the pictures....at least it shows and tells me this can be done...it doesn't sound to bad if you have the rights stuff...it would sure make life a lot easier.
Also if there a brand name for the magpumps you are using...or any specs for GPH or whatever so i could at least find a compatable unit up here in canada..thanks

[csarkar001]

regardless of whatever other equipment you decide to use for your automatic water change setup, an drilled overflow will save you much time, money and aggravation in the long run.

i've struggled with external overflow boxes for years for my marine tanks. IMO, they are not worth it.

--chandan

[calihawker]

Magdrive is the actual brand name of what I'm using but any old pumps will do. Mine are 500 gph.

Overflows really do help like chandon says, and I would think drilling your tank should be no problem eh?;)



Steve

[Consigliere]

Another method which doesn't require a controller but may be a bit less reliable is this:

1) plumb a line from house cold supply to a drinking water cartridge filter to a drip regulator setup

2) plumb a line from the house drain to your sump filter. Adding a ball valve somewhere will make life easer

3) have that run into a section of a sump filter, preferably a section that is isolated from the main flow but will overflow into the main flow. Can be drilled overflow or just the baffling.

4) have a secondary sump pump that operates on a float switch (most of them have one built in) so that whenever the drip water exceeds your evaporation rate you will accumulate water in the sump and eventually the sump pump will turn on via float switch and pump water out to your house drain.

There are a few posts on most forums how to do all this with pictures. Just hop on Google.

[Vince C]

Dean,
I recently took the plunge & setup a tank for Discus. But before doing this I knew that I would have to have an automatic or semi-automatic system in place if this endeaver was to be successful.

1st I looked into using timers: one to control the drain process and one to control the fill process. Timers weren't to my liking since most timers have a 1 minute increment of adjustment and are not that accurate at repeatability. I needed 3 minutes of fill time to be within 5 seconds accuracy.

I have a 72 Gallon bow-front glass tank which isn't drilled for overflow so my drain & fill lines had to go up & over the rear of the tank.

I have a basement so I decided to use gravity as my means of draining the tank. Since my tank is backed-up against a wall where there is a hot water baseboard heater I drilled a hole in the floor for 1/2" tubing which would be inconspicuous and could be patched someday. Once routed to the bsmt I drilled a hole in the perimeter block wall to route the 1/2" tubing outside to drain behind a bush.

At the rear of the tank the 1/2" tubing was connected(via a barbed fitting) to 1/2" pvc pipe and a manual pvc valve was installed. From the pvc manual valve a pvc pipe was extended up & over the tank then run down to within an 1" of the gravel surface. Next I cut into the 1/2" tubing in the bsmt and inserted a 120V ASCO solenoid valve and a spring loaded check valve. That took care of the drain process.

For the fill process I have 2-55 gallon polyethylene drums w/ plastic liners installed in the bsmt. Each drum has a heater and aerator installed to condition the water. I placed a submersible pump in one of the drums and installed a 3/4" tubing from the sump pump up thru the floor--again drilling a hole under the baseboard heater element, then up to a 3/4" pvc pipe. A 3/4"pvc valve was installed at the rear of the tank then pvc pipe was extended up & over the rear wall of the tank. The pvc valves are "normally open" and are used as an emergency shut-off or for maintenance reasons. A 3/4" 120V ASCO valve was again cut into the 3/4" tubing in the basement but a checkvalve wasn't necessary in this instance.

Now, for electrical control, since I didn't have much faith in stand alone timers I looked into PLC's(Programmable Logic Controllers). All of the PLC's require software which cost more than the PLC. However I found a company called Automation Direct.Com which just came out with a micro PLC which has free software, is simple to program,and is less expensive than standard PLC's. PLC's have excellant repeatability and could be programmed in either seconds, minutes, or days. The only drawback was the micro PLC, the model which is called "Click" doesn't have a time-of-day clock like normal PLC's and can't accept analog signals.

What this meant was I had to initiate the start process manually since a clock timer was not incorporated into the PLC. So I installed a "start" pushbutton at the rear of the tank stand to initiate the process as follows: Push start button, PLC starts internal timer for 5 minutes and activates drain solenoid valve for this duration thus allowing tank to gravity drain, at end of 5 minutes a second timer starts and activates the fill solenoid valve for 3 minutes and simultaneously energizes the submersible pump thus allowing the tank to be filled. The PLC also actives a relay during the drain/fill process which temporarily interrupts power to a powerstrip where the tank's heater(s) and 2-HOB filters are plugged into. This prevents the heaters from overheating and the filters from making all sorts of noise trying to suck up water from below their sump level(losing prime).

Knowing there might be a slight discrepancy between the drain & fill process I installed a second switch(spring return) adjacent to the start pushbutton. This is my fill override switch which I can use to top off the tank as needed.

So now every morning before work while having a cup of tea I push the "water change" start button and the tank automatically drains for 5 minutes, then fills for 3 minutes, then stops. Note these times were derived from trial & error and are based on a 10 gallon waterchange.

I usually watch the process till it stops then, if desired, toggle the fill override switch to establish the exact level I want.

My storage drums are filled approximately every other day via a manual pvc valve but could be automated with a solenoid valve as well.

The beauty of the PLC is I can change the timer settings easily and can add other features such as a bsmt floor water sensor to shut off my well pump should water be sensed at floor level. If a feature rich, higher end PLC were to be utilized then RTD's/thermocouples could be used to sense tank & storage water temperatures and then control the heaters based on user defined setpoints. Also, the PLC could be used to control home thermostats, outside lights etc.

What I like about the PLC is I get to establish what, how, & when devices are controlled.

By the way the "Click" PLC cost $79, the PLC's power supply cost $36, and the serial cable for programming the PLC cost $10, the ASCO valves cost $95 each.

Note-I could have used a 3-way ASCO valve and eliminated one of the floor penetrations but two holes were already drilled and having separate drain/fill lines was more simplistic for me.

In summary, you can automate or semi-automate with either timers or a PLC with the PLC giving you more flexibility and a greater degree of accuracy. I realize a backup tank float could be used in case the system malfunctions and I am researching that for the next phase.

If you ever decide to use the "Click" PLC let me know and I'll send you my program which you can modify to suit your installation.

Mat'l List: 1-"CLICK" PLC w/ 24V power supply
5- cube relays w/ bases
1-24"x24" metal/fiberglass enclosure
25-termination blocks
1- fuse block
2- receptacles
100'- 150V thermistat wire(5 conductor)
25'- extension cord

Hope this was of some help.

Vince

[Darren's Discus]

here is my fully automatic w/c system,it does 3 water changes a day without me !:D
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=62225&page=8

cheers

[shoggoth43]

Depending on the height of your sump you can simplify this even more. You'll still need 1). But if the running height of your sump is higher than your drain you can simply setup an overflow in the sump. Any excess water into the tank/sump will overflow out the drain in the sump and down the drain. In the event of a power failure you will have a forced automatic water change as the water that drains from the tank into the sump will overflow and go down the drain. As long as when things start up and fill the tank you don't run the pump dry you'll be set. The drip feed will slowly add water to the sump level. If you add the water to the tank directly you'll have some slight flow through the tank as well, but you may not have heat so it's possible you may want to add the drip feed water into the pump loop somewhere so you don't drop the water temp in the main tank. All told, no electronics or programming/timers to worry about.

-
S


Another method which doesn't require a controller but may be a bit less reliable is this:

1) plumb a line from house cold supply to a drinking water cartridge filter to a drip regulator setup

2) plumb a line from the house drain to your sump filter. Adding a ball valve somewhere will make life easer

3) have that run into a section of a sump filter, preferably a section that is isolated from the main flow but will overflow into the main flow. Can be drilled overflow or just the baffling.

4) have a secondary sump pump that operates on a float switch (most of them have one built in) so that whenever the drip water exceeds your evaporation rate you will accumulate water in the sump and eventually the sump pump will turn on via float switch and pump water out to your house drain.

There are a few posts on most forums how to do all this with pictures. Just hop on Google.