Do Heckels ever swim?

[wannafish]

Hello,

No really, do Heckels ever swim. My Heckel fish
just stay under and behind the branches of wood
I have. The only way I can tell if they are living
is to get close and look at their gills. Because
they don't swim at all. Even when I feed them
they don't glide across the sand and dig for
food, they dart out and take a sniff of the
blood worm and than dart back behind the
branches. I heard they were shy, but this is
absolute fear. I have had them for about
3 months now. I do water changes, 50% once
a week, in a 60 gallon, and I just added another
cannister filter. I was wondering if it was the
lighting. I wish I had room for a larger tank.
I am just guessing here, but I think these Heckel
fish need a lot more swimming room.

Anybody have fish that don't swim?

Thanks,

jeff

[yim11]

Assuming the water conditions are optimal (not the cause of of the hiding), try adding some tannins or peat moss to color the water. I had some stressed fish once and that really helped to get them acclimated to the tank.

HTHs,
-jim

[erikc]

I would assume that you have bought them from a LFS and not someone else ?

Heckel's take at the minimum six months to year to acclimatise to their new environnement, this fact is hardly ever mentioned but you must take this into account.

How is your tank set up ? Do you have sand in the bottom or gravel, what colour, where is the fishtank located, is there any dircet sunlight etc. ... ?

It sounds like youre Heckel's are stressed, they won't come out in front of you and they probably eat when you are gone.

If you could give a better descrition of your setup and feeding regime Iit would help.

[poconogal]

Please post your water parameters - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, temperature. Also, how many do you have?

[Eddie]

They swim at my house but I don't give them anywhere to hide.

I also keep mine with hybrids which many many people frown upon. To each his own I guess.

Eddie

[wannafish]

O.k. here's the skinny,

I have a 60 gallon acrylic. I just added a second cannister for better filtration
two fluvals 404's. Sand substrate with wood branches. I have tried to make it a
biotope from the info gathered here. I have been doing water changes
with water conditioned with peat. Using 80% of this water. My last
w/c I used only 50% and added tap water. My tap water is 7.6 ph
This kinda perked them up. Plants, a sword, and some floating frogbit.
Temp. 85. I feed them frozen blood worms, 2 to 3 times a day.
They forage for food better at night when the room is dark. And yes
they only eat when I am not there. (How do they know?). My water
is blackwater, rich with peat. I just did test a with 2 different test kits
from API.

Test strips Master kit
PH 7.2 7.5
Ammonia 0 0
Nitrite 0 0
Nitrate 20 20
KH 180 12drops
GH 120 can't even get a reading
phosphates 2.0

I was hoping the peat would alter my ph, but no.
I guess R/O would be the way to go. But I don't know!
I know using a buffer would bring down the ph, but
I don't know about that one either, especially with the
Heckels. There has been a dominant male keeping
everyone back for the worms, but this past week,
he has calmed down. I guess it is just going to take
awhile. My main concern is getting my ph to 6.5
or 6.8.

Thanks!

[KDodds]

Only discus in this tank? No dither fish? If not, you might want to try a bolder, but not nippy, tetra, something like a bleeding heart, maybe a dozen of them (room provided).

[wannafish]

Oh Yes! I do have some dithers!

Forgot about those lit'l buggers.

10 black neons,

4 rasboros

2 ottos

2 panda corys

2 clown loach

there you have it!

[erikc]

Thanks for the info.

Okay IMO I would drop the clown loaches and tetras (not literaly ;) ) and have only a group of corries, say 6 - 7 . The clown loach will have the same hiding places than the discus and will compete for food, tetras are fast swimmers and can be annoying.

Try some FBH (a good brand from your local store) in the morning and give them something else in the evening. You have to try to ween them of BW and have them come and get the food in front of you ;)

It takes time and patience :D

[KDodds]

Ditto on the loaches. IME, black neons can be a little feisty, I'd think about replacing them with more rasboras if removing the loaches doesn't help after a couple of weeks.

[Dan S]

Hello Jeff,

Im with the others, take the Clown loach out straight away.

What type of lighting do you have on the tank?

How many Heckels do you have?

How much Peat do you use? You need quite a lot to change the Ph especially if the water is well buffered. I use very soft water and I use 3 - 4litres of peat and that only moves my Ph from 6.5 down to 6.

Dan

[wannafish]

Sounds good!

I can take the loaches out. They are still quite small.
I can do with the neons also. They looked so cool
in the blackwater. I was treating my water with a
bucket filled with peat and a pump. I got the idea
either here or somewhere else. I will look for the
link. I would pump the water from the bucket into
tank for w/c. I filled 50% with 90% water from
bucket and topped it off with tap water. I noticed
a change of .5 on the ph also. So mine went from
7.5 to 7.0. I just would like to get in the 6's.

Thanks,

[crash]

HI,
Sorry if you already anwered this question, but how many Discus do you have in your 60 gallon?

As you might know, discus are shoaling fish, so their strength is in numbers. in 60 gallon at 10 gallon per fish, you should have atleast 5 discus IMHO in that tank.

Also, I would add some sea salt, tbsp / 10 gallon. It will unstress the fish a bit.

Possibly try keeping the light off and also when you feed them try and sit there for 10 mins. Discus start associating you with food and are less likely to be spooked when you enter the room.

Another thing that will cause them to dart are shadows, so you should always keep in a place where you dont cast any shadows on the tank.

One more thing, if you give them places to hide they will hide. So I would just keep the tank barebottom until you feel comfortable to add the wood back in.


Hope that helps,
Amol

[wannafish]

Hi there!

Thanks for the input. I apologize I thought
everyone out there knew how many fish I had!
LoL.
I have 6 Heckels about 4.5 inches in diameter.
I came home last night and I saw more
movement. A couple of them came out
letting me know they were hungry! I don't
know but I think adding the other filter
may have helped. Or the added tap
water. They were getting w/c with
90% peat water. But I will try some salt.

Thanks!

jeff

[erikc]

Hi there!

Thanks for the input. I apologize I thought
everyone out there knew how many fish I had!
LoL.
I have 6 Heckels about 4.5 inches in diameter.
I came home last night and I saw more
movement. A couple of them came out
letting me know they were hungry! I don't
know but I think adding the other filter
may have helped. Or the added tap
water. They were getting w/c with
90% peat water. But I will try some salt.

Thanks!

jeff


I wouldn't try salt IMO. What is exactly the readings for your peat water ?
Salt in this case will not help your heckels.

[wannafish]

O.K I got the dithers on Peat water.
Just did the check!

Ph. 6.8 on the stick 7.5 in the tube
Ammonia 0 0
Nitrate 5 5
Nitrite 0 0
GH 180
KH 120

Lighting I have 2 65w daylight bulbs
that came with my Current USA fixture.

The Heckels were out and about tonight like
if they just woke up from a long nap. They
don't like any room lights on.

[Eddie]

Thats alot of light for heckel tank, maybe that is why they are shy. Do you have floating plants to soften the light going into the tank?


Eddie

[erikc]

O.K I got the dithers on Peat water.
Just did the check!

Ph. 6.8 on the stick 7.5 in the tube
Ammonia 0 0
Nitrate 5 5
Nitrite 0 0
GH 180
KH 120

Lighting I have 2 65w daylight bulbs
that came with my Current USA fixture.

The Heckels were out and about tonight like
if they just woke up from a long nap. They
don't like any room lights on.


IMO the PH is just too high and is seems rather hard for peat water.

The water should be much softer and the PH lower. At the moment your Heckel's are un-comfortable in the water the are in.

You should change the peat on a regular bassis for it to be effective. What kind of peat are you using ?

[crash]

Hi,
Your PH is fine, i have kept discus in PH of 8.00 without any issues. Please remember stable PH is better than optimal ph. Discus are hardier than people give them credit for.
Keep up your WC dont play with your parameters of the water. Your discus are spooked not sick. Playing with parameters would make things worst.
At this point if they are eating and they dont look sick all you can do is wait and watch. They need to associate people with food, older discus it takes more time. Its normal for discus to come out when the room lights are off, it just shows that they dont trust you yet. Try more feedings of blood worms. the temtation would be too much for them not to come out.


Like i said in my earlier post, if you give them places to hide they will hide. I disagree with the earlier post which said salt wont help. I dont think it will have an adverse effect either.

Thank you,
Amol

[pcsb23]

As always there will be many different views and opinions. Some will say don't give them anywhere to hide and others will say do so.

Heckels are imo the least forgiving of wilds to poor water quality, and in their case that can (not always) mean ph too. The most important thing is the water is clean.

As for the lighting, I too think 2x65W daylights is too much and this would be the second thing I changed. The first would be to increase the frequency of water changes. Adding some floating plants may help with the lights.

I also agree with losing the clown loaches, I really like them, but not with wilds.

[blue acara]

Hi, I have had the same exact behaviour from my Heckel and mine had over a year to acclimatize. Unfortunatly this is the way Heckels can be. Mine hated bright light and were only comfortable swimming around when the room was dark and they were under a blue LED, not fluorescent(even 11 watts they didnt like) my advice is to get a blue LED and see how they behave when it is the only light on. Adding more Heckels (15 or more, the more the better) may also help them feel more comfortable. This is obviously a big investment and would require a big tank.

I dream of having a 1000 gallon tank with 50 Heckels and low light, they would breed then im betting.

Best of luck with your fish

[wannafish]

Hey!

Thanks for the input! I think bigger is better too!
I wish I could house some more Heckels in a
bigger tank. I like the idea of a large biotope.
But the landlord says no. So bigs dreams later.
I am going to try altering the lighting. I do have
some frogbit on the surface, but it doesn't seem
to be growing. I heard it grew real fast. I came
home today and they were out and about swimming.
I don't what I did, but their behavior has changed
a bit. Go figure!

[Fishworm]

My heckles spend most of their time hiding in the driftwood too. my main problem is the lights are a bit too bright...but they are getting used to it.

they always come out at feeding time and they will eat out of my hands. but after they eat, it's back to the driftwood. seems the only time they really ever venture out into the open spaces is when they are hungry. they come out in the open and stare at me, begging for food. :D

I have 12 5 inch heckles in a 125 gallon tank along with 11 rummy nose tetras and a trio of 3 inch Jurupari eartheaters. the discus get along great with the eartheaters. they all completely ignore each other.

[lemondiscus]

I have had mine now for SEVERAL months and they swim ALL OVER my tank! The Heckels are VERY active! IMO I dont think it is lighting (as long as there are some shady regions because I run well over 200 watts of light on my 125 gallon tank! Mine are a bit older than all of yours though... mine are around 8-10 inches....

IMO also I believe your PH is WAY too high! Sticks suck and the liquid tests are THE WAY to go!

My water is PH 7.0 out of the tap and I use Peat Moss in bags on all of my filters to pull the PH down. My PH runs steady at 5.8 after doing this. Do not try and use chemicals to alter the PH because they all have excess phosphates in them which encourage algae growth. In my experience the Peat Moss is by far the only good way to alter PH.

Another thing that comes to mind, how high is your tank? I keep mine 42" off of the ground so anything moving like kids and cats the fish cannot really see. I believe also that helps to have your tank a bit higher off of the ground.

Here are the parameters I have been successful at (not breeding but just keeping)

PH - 5.5
KH - < 10ppm
GH - < 65ppm
Temp - 86 - 92 (I prefer myself 86-88)

Hope anything I added helps

[Göran Ekholm]

Shy heckels need tankmates, and good water, like tetras and stuff.

[Apistomaster]

Shy heckels need tankmates, and good water, like tetras and stuff.

I second Goran statement. The Black Neons were acceptable tank mates. One I have often used. Black Line Tetras are fin nippers and are sometimes confused somehow for Black Neons. I have kept hundreds of Black neons with Discus over the years because they are very compatible and I breed Black Neons every few years so I often have had plenty o use in with Heckels and other wild Discus.
Lighting may be too strong. Heckels can become acclimated to stronger lighting but I wouldn't impose that on them. I have kept Discus in hard and alkaline water for many years. They lived and grew well enough but as adults, their colors were not at their best. After going to a new setting and given very soft acid water, pH 4.0 and TDS 25 ppm, the Heckels became much happier and developed intense colors. So there is difference between what we may get away with and what conditions do Heckels really thrive.
60 gal tank is rather small for Heckels. They do best in larger groups in much larger tanks.
A modest amount of branching wood is better than blocks of wood which they can hide behind. Be sure Heckels have fine sand substrates, even if only a thin layer. Provide enough floating plants to cause a dappled shade

[wannafish]

Hey! Thought I would give an update.

My Heckels are still sitting in the same spots.
Now they have designated spots. Some pecking
order! Now not only do they not swim, they
are not eating. I have tried to change the food
from FBW to colorbits and some earthworm sticks
and spirulina sticks, ( they don't even know what
these are)! Oh, they go nuts when they see and
get some live worms, but I am trying to stay away
from those. Maybe I am switching foods on them
to quickly! I have read about raising the temp and
starving them for a couple of days. If I feed them
the food stays there until late and lights out, then
they scurry to feed. They definitely don't want me
to be around. Maybe that's when they swim too!
BTW my driftwood are not like branches but rather
large pieces that are placed on one side of tank.
That's where they stay in their spots. I would think
they would get bored sitting there all day. Why not
swim a little! Also I am changing the way I set up
my peat. Going from the peat bomb in my water
changes to a pillow. Anybody know what to do?

Jeff

[Apistomaster]

I would remove any wood large enough for you Heckels can hide behind. A few branching pieces will work much better.

I would also get over your live wormophobia. They are one of the few foods that Heckels are almost guaranteed to eat. You can use them as training and enticement foods. It is so important for the Heckels to eat well even if the food is live worms so they gain weight, grow and overcome most of their shyness, especially at feeding times. Heckels do like earth worm sticks but they may need to be introduced to some erth worm sticks when they are actively feeding on live worms. All new food are best introduced gradually along with foods they are already eating well. My Heckels always ate well once acclimated and I began feeding the earth worm sticks to the various Hypancistrus spp Plecos I had in their tank but the Heckels moved right in on the sticks. They like foods like the sticks because they lend themselves well to the way Heckels like to graze constantly for foods and the sticks become soft enough to spread over an area. Especiall when the fish feeding swirl the bits all over and they will spend hurs tracking down the last bits.

I never recommend starving Heckels as a method of trying to get them to accept new foods. Heckels will take clues from other fish, like the dwarf fancy Plecos I kept with mine and perhaps a school of compatible Tetras in addition to using live worms as the initial inducement. Live worms should be fed daily or more at first before trying to introduce them to a wider variety of foods. Not all Heckels are as much trouble as yours because the seller may have already acclimated them to a variety of food before you bought them.
But do open up the swimming space. If you don't have branched wood then forego using any wood or objects large enough for them to hide behind. Spending more time around and in their tanks like when doing water changes will also help them overcome some of their excessive caution about coming out in the open. I suspect your Discus are presently coming out more when it is dark or when you are not around. The tank should not be completely bare either.

Water chemistry is much more important for Heckels than common Blue/Brown wild discus or domestics. Wild Green Discus need very similar water chemistry as Heckels. They really do need soft acid water to do well. Salt is a very bad idea because it is inconsistent with soft(Low Total Dissolved Solids) which is important for Heckels. They prefer very low pH but I am guessing that you would be better off not experimenting with lower range pH at this stage in your experience. Things can go wrong quickly if you don't already have some experience with low TDS and pH below 6.

[wannafish]

Thanks Miester,

I was hoping for your comments. Much of what I know
about Heckels and reading here are from your comments.
Even though the large pieces of driftwood look nice, I think
they are relying too much on them for security. Which for me
is O.K. if that's the way they are in nature. But I think it's time
that they got a little exercise and swam a little bit. I have some
branches, I'll put in. Understanding now more about feeding and
giving them more time to adjust to new foods. They feed on
frozen blood worms but wait until lights out. I was trying
to lower my ph with my (sphagnum treated peat) water changes,
but firstly it wasn't altering the ph and secondly, I wasn't trusting
it's use anymore. I have just bought some almond leaves. I just
can't seem to get the ph down. Maybe now it will. I have had them
for about 5-6 months now. I think when I got them they weren't
eating very well either. Since they love live worms, I'll feed them
that. I thought I read somewhere that if Discus don't get other foods
like vegetables, that live worms can cause disease. I understand that
fruits and vegetables and insects are their main staple.

thanks,

jeff

[Daniella]

I only have one heckel which I keep with my domestic discus and some black neon tetra.

Same with mine. He/she only goes for the live food. Eated some beedheart once and never accepted it again while my domestic go nuts for it.

I feed it white worms and moskito larvea for now and that's all that fish eat. I have ordered some scuds and fruit flies to start a culture of these and I am afraid that I will have to feed more live food to my fish in the future. Not that they complain :) It's cool too because it does not spoil the water as beefheart can do and it's not expensive to use.

Mine come to eat from my hand but my light is very low since I have bare bottom with no plant. I turned my reflector up so they are in front of the light instead and dim the light well.

If you have reflectors on your lights, you can try this and turn it down. That way you can gradualy adjust the level of light to a bit stronger. My reflectors have little clip and clip on the neon light, so I can easily rotate it around the light to use as a shade.

Mine does like to hide near or float near my large driftwood but as soon as I get near the tank he/she come out of hiding and come to see if I have food.

In the store where I got it, he/she was staying in the farther corner not moving and find clamped, looked very shy and scared and the light there were high. It totaly changed in my aquarium with lower lights and good food.








Hey! Thought I would give an update.

My Heckels are still sitting in the same spots.
Now they have designated spots. Some pecking
order! Now not only do they not swim, they
are not eating. I have tried to change the food
from FBW to colorbits and some earthworm sticks
and spirulina sticks, ( they don't even know what
these are)! Oh, they go nuts when they see and
get some live worms, but I am trying to stay away
from those. Maybe I am switching foods on them
to quickly! I have read about raising the temp and
starving them for a couple of days. If I feed them
the food stays there until late and lights out, then
they scurry to feed. They definitely don't want me
to be around. Maybe that's when they swim too!
BTW my driftwood are not like branches but rather
large pieces that are placed on one side of tank.
That's where they stay in their spots. I would think
they would get bored sitting there all day. Why not
swim a little! Also I am changing the way I set up
my peat. Going from the peat bomb in my water
changes to a pillow. Anybody know what to do?

Jeff

[rowedder]

Hey Jeff,
How are your heckles coming along? I am really curious about your use of the almond leaves... were they effective with lowering your pH? I ask because I use them also with my heckles and it does wonders for them! No joke! I stopped using them for a month and my heckles became ill and were hiding ALL the time. I treated them with metro for 10 days with an elevated temp of 92 degrees and also fed them metro flake only several times a day. I also did 50% water changes every day, I still do those water changes. I have my 11 heckles in a square 150 gallon tank with four filters. Two marineland 360's and two sponge filters. Along with my heckles are 6 rummies, one blue tetra, a few bristlenose pleco's and a couple wild cories. I also have one domestic from a batch of fry I raised last year, last one I had. So the leaves really do soften water, add minerals and vitamins, fight disease and most definatly lower pH. Mine runs at 5.8 to 6.0, I try to keep my pH at 6.0, it drops gradually over time. Feeding consists of flake food two times a day plus an evening feeding of bloodworms. I sink the flake food for them so they don't have to come to the surface. They avoid the surface like the plague. So it would be great to hear how things are.

[erikc]

Hey! Thought I would give an update.

My Heckels are still sitting in the same spots.
Now they have designated spots. Some pecking
order! Now not only do they not swim, they
are not eating. I have tried to change the food
from FBW to colorbits and some earthworm sticks
and spirulina sticks, ( they don't even know what
these are)! Oh, they go nuts when they see and
get some live worms, but I am trying to stay away
from those. Maybe I am switching foods on them
to quickly! I have read about raising the temp and
starving them for a couple of days. If I feed them
the food stays there until late and lights out, then
they scurry to feed. They definitely don't want me
to be around. Maybe that's when they swim too!
BTW my driftwood are not like branches but rather
large pieces that are placed on one side of tank.
That's where they stay in their spots. I would think
they would get bored sitting there all day. Why not
swim a little! Also I am changing the way I set up
my peat. Going from the peat bomb in my water
changes to a pillow. Anybody know what to do?

Jeff

As Apistomaster said include slim branching pieces of wood in your tank, any massive pieces will just help you fish hide more effectively. They are beconing territorial and you must try to break that up.

As for dither fish I always use corrydoras with my heckel's. They will go for the food and in turn entice your heckel's without scaring them off.

As for lowering your PH a good trick is to place some peat pellets you can get from an LFS or online in a net, then in a jar. Then place the jar in your tank. It will take a couple of weeks for the tannins to be released but this method is far better than placing any peat in your filter (which I strongly advise against). The gradual release is more beneficial than any sudden changes.

As for the use of cattapa leaves I cannot honestly say if it has any longterm effectt of not. I think that their effectiveness wears off very quickly, thus changing the water conditions. Using the peat method that I descirbed is more effective as it is gradual but more long term.

Heckels require stable conditions so don't play too much at the alchemist's apprentice too much with them, they really won't like it.

The only source of minerals IMO is from specialised salts (or plant fertilisers). I use mineral salts in my tanks but I do also use pure RO osmosis water. It is important for your fish to have a source of minerals since they are not eating so much but I suppose they may be getting them from your tapwater.

Please keep up with the updates on the changes in your tank.

[Daniella]

why not put it in the filter?

Also if one do water change each day, is it still usefull to have peat in a jar? as it will probably leak slower than the water is being replaced no? I am asking because I put some in my filter (black peat pellets) and it could not keep up with my water change schedule so I removed it as it was kind of useless. I would think that in a jar it release the tanin even slower so is it not all removed with the regular water change?



Then place the jar in your tank. It will take a couple of weeks for the tannins to be released but this method is far better than placing any peat in your filter (which I strongly advise against).

[Tito]

My Heckel swims.

[erikc]

why not put it in the filter?

Also if one do water change each day, is it still usefull to have peat in a jar? as it will probably leak slower than the water is being replaced no? I am asking because I put some in my filter (black peat pellets) and it could not keep up with my water change schedule so I removed it as it was kind of useless. I would think that in a jar it release the tanin even slower so is it not all removed with the regular water change?

Putting peat in your filter is extremenly hard to control, the peat will be effective but will have to be monitered on a regular bassis. The usefull life of peat in your filter depends on flow rates, water quality etc. The tannins will be released very quickly to begin with, but once depleted it will have little effect at all. It is always preferable in this case to place the peat in a jar IMO. This a technique that german WC breeders sucessfully use. You can also treat your RO in a holding tank this way.

[Daniella]

In deed it is quickly released when in the filter as my water turned amber really quick. Problem is that with all these water change, I find it quite expensive and useless to use peat pellets.



Putting peat in your filter is extremenly hard to control, the peat will be effective but will have to be monitered on a regular bassis. The usefull life of peat in your filter depends on flow rates, water quality etc. The tannins will be released very quickly to begin with, but once depleted it will have little effect at all. It is always preferable in this case to place the peat in a jar IMO. This a technique that german WC breeders sucessfully use. You can also treat your RO in a holding tank this way.

[erikc]

In deed it is quickly released when in the filter as my water turned amber really quick. Problem is that with all these water change, I find it quite expensive and useless to use peat pellets.

Daniella,
you should start another post on this subject. The subject of this post is "Do heckels ever swim?"

The two points are linked but the main subjct is being forgotten.

[wannafish]

Hello,

I just dropped in on my thread here and thought I would
give an update par request. Well things are good!
I think my Heckels have been liberated. Or maybe they
were getting bored just sitting there. But I made a few
changes. First I moved them into another room where
I work at my desk. The tank is right next to me. I got
rid of the the peat in a barrel via peat bomb treated
water. I put the peat in a jar in the tank like Eric
suggested. Altered the driftwood and put in thinner
pieces. And just waited. The Heckels changed their
ways and started coming out of the dark spaces
to see what I was doing at my computer. Then
they started to become interested in blood worms.
It's been about a year now since I got them so
maybe it does take about a year for them to
acclimatize to captivity. Anyway they come
out and are most lively at around sunset when
the sun sets in my room. I think they like the
lighting in my room also. But being near to
me I think is what really changed their
behavior. I forgot who mentioned it above
but it seems to have worked. I am wanting
to work on their diet now and introduce fruits.
My Heckels are about 4-5 inches now and
they are indeed swimming.

Happy Swimming

Jeff