Please Help Me

[Misty]

5 (used to be 6) PB juvies in my possession for almost a month.
They used to be in a 30G bare tank and started to darken and clamp. I went to my LFS and was directed to "the discus god" who sat me down and talked to me about the other fish store they came from and their supplier who is known to have fish with this blackening hooplah. So he tells me I'm screwed, doomed, hopeless, and naive for even trying to own one, let alone 6. Well, that's what I took from it. Oh yeah, and use the buffer, and get the blackening panacea and the vitamins. So I use the buffer and they look better for a while. Eating their frozen bloodworms, acting interested... Even the scrawny one. Boyfriend urges no action other than buffer, as does wallet.

While gone on vacation my boyfriend took 2 darkened skinny ones and put them in a 10G for a couple days with some sort of african bay tree oil, and put the other 4 into the 55G previously occupied by vampire tetra, plecos, and various horrid feeders. (bad batch of ich-ridden feeders recently, too. Yes, it gets better.) He then put them back into the big tank after maybe 3 days yesterday the skinniest darkest one died.
Sinker, not a floater, I never saw it, only that it hid beforehand, was blackish everywhere and had nubby looking peanut colored bubbles or tumor-ish developments on the fins very fine (thought it was bubbles from water change for a while).
So before it died I ordered the blackening panacea and the vitazymogen which came today.
I go and read these forums and I dont have the #2. I do have rock and epsom salt. Is it even the blackening disease or plague?

55G - Temp 86F/90F (each side of tank) - pH 7.4 - NO3 0 - NO2 0 - GH 300 - Chlorine 0 - KH 300 - All according to a quick dip strip. WC every 3-4 days.
I have well water. Just got R/O system. Not sure how to use or hook up. I don't have a storage water heated aerated anything. Just buckets from the tap.
So do I go off half informed, half medicated, unprepared?

Do I add 55/12=4.58tsp Blackening Panacea meds to my tank? Do I mix it in a cup first?
Do I also add 5 T rock salt, too? Do I mix it in hot water first?
Should I wait and order #2 also? Or do what I can (which is what?) now?
How long do I wait to use the vitazymogen? -it said after.....
Yes, I've been digging for info on old threads, maybe so many that I'm confused, pissed at my guy for trying to help, pissed at myself for buying them on impulse.
Time for damage control.
Please help me if possible.
Thank you in advance,
-Misty

[nickmcmechan]

there are people on this forum far better qualified than me to answer

however some simple advice jumps out at me


stop adding all the crap
switch to RO with a re-mineraliser
switch to daily water changes...with problems i'd be looking at 50% daily
tell us more about the setup - what else is in the discus tank(sorry i got confused half way through reading your thread) and how is it setup (subtrate etc)
start courses of meds recommended here, i'm not familiar with the ones you stated

[calihawker]

Misty
First of all take a deeeep breath and let me say welcome to simply discus from a former Rohnert Park guy:) You came to the right place.

There's gonna be a lot of folks here that are way better than I at helping with the sick ones but I can tell you right now that without a positive diagnosis of what the fish may or may not have, some med treatments could be detrimental.

You have pretty good tap water in Petaluma but you need to treat it with prime to remove chlorine/chloramine.

If you haven't already done so go to the disease and sickness section and fill out the form and many someones will be here to help you.

Good luck. I'll be keeping an eye on your progress!:angel:

[Misty]

Thanks.
-I haven't added anything. My guy gave 'em that fin rot/bay oil and moved them from tank to tank without my knowlege.
-They're in a 55G with a biowheel thingie. Now I just found out he threw away the hand cut poly filter a couple hours ago without putting a new one in, and there aren't any more. So a stupid biowheel and no filter. I'm very mad right now... Oh yeah, he put sand and a couple logs in there while I was gone too. Not what I wanted either.
-Yes I will do more water changes. I'm not allowed to this late, so tomorrow.
-The blackening panacea is recommended here, that's why I got it. um, green malachite?

[Eddie]

Wow, thats alot to take in one post, I'd be pissed too.

My first question, water from the tap is what? Using the test strips, what are your water parameters? Is that the numbers you gave above or are those numbers tank water readings?

As mentioned above, don't any chemicals to your water for conditioning. Most of the time, tap water is just fine. If not, you may need to do some aging of your tap water before waterchanges. Also, ditch the buckets, make life a million times harder. Can you get a python no-spill system? Its really handy for water changes and or water filling.

As far as meds, not really sure what your fish have. What are some other symptoms? Are they all eating? Do they dart wildy, scratching on objects? Do they breathe heavily? Only use one gill? Fins degrading?

Water is the answer, as you can see as my signature. If your fish are off, looking ill, falling ill, anything.....first place to look is water quality. Are you doing enough water chages, do you change enough every time, is the filter degraded by not cleaning enough or as often.

Juvenile fish need superior water quality, super nutritious foods and they need to be fed often, not alot of food at one time but small meals spread out through the entire day.

Hoping you fish turn around,

Eddie

[Misty]

Deep Breaths, right?
Ok, Is the spinny biowheel enough filtration, or should I pick another fight with the BF for throwing away the hand cut poly filters I had in the filter cartridge area?> There aren't anymore and it's 2am. I found one that looks like felt, but...why would he do that?!


Tap water is normally pH 8.8, and tds are 330ppm. Right this minute its pH 7.4 and tds is 242ppm (i have a stick tester meant for plants).

the python is neat, but not for water changes from the hose outside; it's cold water. and the bf uses it on 4 other tanks that have feeder-ich issues and alerts constantly. should i get my own?

normally I do water changes every day 60%, or i did when they were in the 30G last week. The 5 left have been in the 55G for maybe 3 days now without any wc because I wanted to get the temp stablized (when i came home from vacation to see all of these changes, the temp was 74F. i was pissed) with 2 100watt heaters (one is digital). now we're at 87F filter side, and 90 on the other.

I feed them only bloodworms, the frozen sterilized kind. They still eat everything. They get 1 block per feeding, 3x daily.

[Misty]

:confused:No, the fish aren't itching on stuff, or hiding. They don't breathe funny or swim funny.
The other one that was separated, reunited, and still sick and scrawny anyway doesn't have the wierd nubbys on his fins that the dead one had.

[Eddie]

Deep Breaths, right?
Ok, Is the spinny biowheel enough filtration, or should I pick another fight with the BF for throwing away the hand cut poly filters I had in the filter cartridge area?> There aren't anymore and it's 2am. I found one that looks like felt, but...why would he do that?!


Tap water is normally pH 8.8, and tds are 330ppm. Right this minute its pH 7.4 and tds is 242ppm (i have a stick tester meant for plants).

the python is neat, but not for water changes from the hose outside; it's cold water. and the bf uses it on 4 other tanks that have feeder-ich issues and alerts constantly. should i get my own?

normally I do water changes every day 60%, or i did when they were in the 30G last week. The 5 left have been in the 55G for maybe 3 days now without any wc because I wanted to get the temp stablized (when i came home from vacation to see all of these changes, the temp was 74F. i was pissed) with 2 100watt heaters (one is digital). now we're at 87F filter side, and 90 on the other.

I feed them only bloodworms, the frozen sterilized kind. They still eat everything. They get 1 block per feeding, 3x daily.

Okay, here we go. The bio wheel filters are effective, I used to use them a long time ago. Those cartridges are junk anyways, no purpose but to keep people buying them. They do however catch all the bigger particles before they start catching and building on the biowheel. The best thing you can do is use a pre-filter on the inlet and you can actually just throw a media bag filled with porous rings into the filter to add to the bio filtration. A prefilter is just a simple sponge that you fit onto the inlet tube. There is a sticky about in this section or the general section.

I'd get another python, it will really be handy. 5 fish in a 55, you could get away with doing waterchanges every 3 days if you had to. If your fish are juvenile, you may want to add 2 or 3 more feeding to there feeding regiment. If you feed more, the more waste will accumulate so you will need to do more frequent water changes.

I do recommend you start adding a flake or pellet to their diet also. FBWs are not a well rounded diet for discus. There is not enough nutrients or vitamins to ensure the vitality of the fish. If you can feed them a homemade mix, that would be even better IMO.

8.8 is high for PH. I think you will need to get that RO unit working and figure out a good RO/tap water mix to get your PH down a bit. The best advice I can give is to have system developed to keep your PH constant, between tank and conditioned water.

Hope that helps,

Eddie

[Scribbles]

Sorry to butt in but did you say that you do wc from a hose outside using cold water?

Chris

[Misty]

heck no scribbles! I normally tap temp in a bucket from my kitchen sink.
Thanks all for trying to help, I'm reading your replies and flipping back and forth to the library series on r/o filtration.

[Scribbles]

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Chris

[calihawker]

Like Eddie said, water is the answer. If there's any way you can get some kind of container big enough to hold say 25-30 gallons then use that to do an ro/tap water mix. Start with 50% ro and go from there. Get the water up to temp and add prime.

Am I understanding that you're not sure how to hook up the ro? Let me know if that's an issue. It's a super simple device really.

[poconogal]

Misty, I would definitely get your own Python and tell your BF to keep his hands off your Discus!

[fishkeeper59]

Hi misty, been reading your post and its a shame for all the headaches of having sick fish. I recently went through a torrid time of losing 75% of my fry's (150+ down to 40 now)., they are 5 weeks old now and what i've learned from all that misery was to be clear headed and think about each episode and event leading to each given malady. finally after frantic water changes and constant testing of water parameters i realized that what i needed was stability in the environment my fishes we're in. No medication or tonic was given to my fish as it only conflicated my water chemistry, i raised water temp., daily water change of 10% dripped slowly via a air hose, real slow...no sudden changes in ph., and slow feed. just a little bit at a time of what ever their favorite food was. Once i started getting color back(from black to brownish and clear eyes) i introduced grounded bits and mashed beefheart, real small amounts..What i needed was to learn something from all the sacrifices my baby discus's made, and the next time that i'm given an opportunity to raise fry's that i wont make the same mistakes. Goodluck and remember try to have consistency in your water and hopefully they make it through..

[Roxanne]

Hi Misty

Tell me if I have this right...your ph from the tap is 8.8 and your ph in your tank is 7.4? And you are on well water? Is this right?

Roxanne

[Misty]

Yes, Roxanne, the pH varies. I'm using well water coming from the side of a hill next to a dairy, and it changes constantly. I think it's only treated with some UV whatnot.
Last night was 7.4. Today is 7.4, and I think it was the spring rains that got it up to 8.8 for so long.
Tank right now is 7.2-7.4 (not sure b/c the colors look the same.) I'm totally calling Tony for that digital pH monitor...
Yes, I am confused about the R/O unit. Do I hook it up to the kitchen sink, or the washing machine line? Does OSH have an adaptor for that?
Do I bother with that blackeing panacea (malachite)?

Also, qt/ tank change isn't an option anymore, my bf took down the 30G, and the 10G is bubbly-stagnant.
The little sick one is so dark it's more icky grey than melon colored,and they're all flashing stripes like gang signs (tee-hee)
Again, I'm in over my head....
;)

[Roxanne]

Hi Misty:)

I have never had a fish go black before, so I would defer to those with expertise to advise you on a treatment plan.

The reason I ask about your water, is at least two other members I can think of had problems with well water fluctuations and RO etc.. and losing fish..I think Connie (poconoco)is on a well and I know Kath(Mr Wild) is too...ph is one thing, but it's good to find out what to do when your water is all over the place, or at least unpredictable...Steve offered you his help with the RO, and as he is experienced, I'd take him up on that if I were you;)...I know zip about RO anyway:)

A QT doesn't have to be a standard glass tank...I have big plastic boxes I use if I run out of tankspace or when I am servicing a tank and don't want the fish in it while I do it...I drilled holes in the top for lines and ventilation...just a suggestion if you get desperate for space...

Roxanne

[Eddie]

Yes, Roxanne, the pH varies. I'm using well water coming from the side of a hill next to a dairy, and it changes constantly. I think it's only treated with some UV whatnot.
Last night was 7.4. Today is 7.4, and I think it was the spring rains that got it up to 8.8 for so long.
Tank right now is 7.2-7.4 (not sure b/c the colors look the same.) I'm totally calling Tony for that digital pH monitor...
Yes, I am confused about the R/O unit. Do I hook it up to the kitchen sink, or the washing machine line? Does OSH have an adaptor for that?
Do I bother with that blackeing panacea (malachite)?

Also, qt/ tank change isn't an option anymore, my bf took down the 30G, and the 10G is bubbly-stagnant.
The little sick one is so dark it's more icky grey than melon colored,and they're all flashing stripes like gang signs (tee-hee)
Again, I'm in over my head....
;)

I have never used blackening panacea but the symptoms of your fish going dark and stress (mood) bars showing can point to many different ailments. The trick is finding the combination of symptoms to narrow down the problem. Are the fish eating properly? How is their slime coat? Are the eyes cloudy?

Its basically like a problem solving troubleshooting tree, eliminating certain ailments by the evidence or lack there of.


Eddie

[Misty]

Yes, they eat, but only FBW.
No clouding or popping of eyes.
I haven't even noticed any sort of slime coat, period.
Just got back from LPS, bought a penn-plax canister filter 1000. Guess it cycles 265G/h, and is meant for a 100G tank. Yipee, something else I don't understand. Least it was on sale....
I'll be calling round for help forever!

[calihawker]

Misty, Can you tell me what ro unit you have or send a picture?

[Eddie]

Yes, they eat, but only FBW.
No clouding or popping of eyes.
I haven't even noticed any sort of slime coat, period.
Just got back from LPS, bought a penn-plax canister filter 1000. Guess it cycles 265G/h, and is meant for a 100G tank. Yipee, something else I don't understand. Least it was on sale....
I'll be calling round for help forever!

No worries, canisters are pretty easy to assemble.

All the best,

Eddie

[Misty]

The R/o is a Spectra Pure. I made it work, had to get an adaptor from the hardware store. LPS was closed when I got there, so I did a w/c bailing water. Nothing goes my way, I get home and the siphon I was about to use was minutes before in ich infested tanks. Yeah, bailing had to do. Also, I only did 50%, and maybe 10G of that was r/o.
the fun part was the sand I never wanted in there, it stirred up.

[Misty]

So, the r/o unit...Do all of you usually have to wait an hour for 10G r/o water? Can you temp it thru the system, or is that cold water only?

[Misty]

It's 4am and I'm trying to set up a canister filter. Nothing makes sense!
I think a part is missing, but there's an addition to the picture on the diagram. It wont create a vacuum.

[poconogal]

Hi Misty:)

...The reason I ask about your water, is at least two other members I can think of had problems with well water fluctuations and RO etc.. and losing fish..I think Connie (poconoco)is on a well and I know Kath(Mr Wild) is too...ph is one thing, but it's good to find out what to do when your water is all over the place, or at least unpredictable...
Roxanne
Rox is right, I'm on well water and PH does change seasonally -- usually ranges from 7.6 to about 8.0, but it does not really fluctuate. When it changes from the tap it remains at whatever the current PH is for several months. MY PH does rise after 24 hrs. though, so to manage the changes and keep the PH stable I limit my WCs to 50% changes at a time. It keeps the PH in the tank stable, but if the PH does begin to climb from the tap it will only climb a bit in the tank (due to only 50% WCs) with each WC until it matches, once again, what the PH is out of the tap. I haven't had fluctations in my tank and haven't lost any fish, though...

[calihawker]

So, the r/o unit...Do all of you usually have to wait an hour for 10G r/o water? Can you temp it thru the system, or is that cold water only?

Glad you got it working.:) Yes, ro units are rated GPD (gallons per day) So yours, if setup properly which it sounds like it is, is 24 GPD. There are ways to get the water coming out heated but the best way is to just mix in the warm tap water. Another reason to have a container big enough to store water.

I'll post some pics later when I get home.

[DLock3d]

and maybe 10G of that was r/o.
the fun part was the sand I never wanted in there, it stirred up.

Misty,

There are few options on removing the substrate (sand) you have in that tank. You can go to home depot and buy 3/4'' rubber plastic hosing at about .49 to $1.00 a foot. Or if your siphon has the option of removing the large head at the end then you can simply use your existing siphon.

I will say that I'd be extremely cautious about using the same equipment that you've used on your other tanks for this tank. Even if your fish in the other tank don't display symptoms of illness but especially if they do. If you do this now, I'd recommend replacing the cheaper stuff and bleaching the more expensive stuff that you want to reuse.

Bleaching sounded pretty dramatic to me in the beginning but as long as you soak the equipment in a bucket with a double dose of prime
(de-chlor) after you bleach it, you should be fine.

Stay calm and listen to the advice the senior members give you on these forums. One day I'm going to get the owner of the site to collect the number of years everyone has been keeping discus and use that as the sites slogan.

"900 years of collective discus experience!"

HTH

[calihawker]

It's 4am and I'm trying to set up a canister filter. Nothing makes sense!
I think a part is missing, but there's an addition to the picture on the diagram. It wont create a vacuum.

Well you sure are trying real hard that's for sure!:)

The filter will have to be primed the first time you use it and whenever you clean it. Fill it full of tank water by siphon or whatever, then close the canister. On some models there is an opening for a funnel to top it off with water. The point is the canister needs to be filled all the way before it will pump, and sometimes the inlet hose as well. Worst case is you'll have to manually prime (suck on the output hose, yuk) to get it fully primed.

[Misty]

Thanks, I got the canister running, and yes, I had to suck hose water when the primer button didn't work. From what I got from everyone's collective advice, I just did the w/c, and changed filtration. I'm holding off on the meds, partially because I'm too scared, and because I've gotten so many different responses.
I do have quICK Cure on the ready as well as the other stuff.
Seriously, the nada site (is that a curse word here?) had no idea what the blackeing was about. Is it that uncommon?

[calihawker]

Hey Misty, how are things going? Keep us up to date on those guy's.;)

[Misty]

The little one has been hiding all day> He's turned mostly turquoise.
Boyfriend's payara tank had every one die today, and the Goliath Aftican Tiger Fish. No bueno!