Rastaban
05-31-2009, 05:23 PM
Hello, I am new to the forum but I have a long question. I plan to setup a new freshwater tank in the coming 3 months and have been reading the net/books for over half a year, so please bear with me as I have a lot of questions and I appreciate your response both positive and negative. I read a lot of posts on this site and have a general idea what would work but just to be sure I ask the complete list of questions I have. I apologize for my English as it is not my native language. I do not have any unbiased opinions near me as everybody tries to sell their point of view. I would like to ask for your unbiased opinion
I have always been near fish, my mother was a chemist and held salt-water fish for over 30 years now. When I got my own house I missed the sound of the salt water aquarium (about 200 gallons) but based on cost and on time constraints I was unable to start my own salt water aquarium. I started however about 2 years ago with a small fresh water aquarium that used to be the quarantine tank of the salt water aquarium of my mother. I was successful in raising and growing fry of: guppies, sword tails, flag fish and successful in keeping L144, oto’s, SAE, Rams, kuhli’s. I was not as good with the plants initially I had a large hair algue infestation that was eaten completely by the flag fish fry and I still have a lot of BBA, Black Brush Algue. I used a DIY co2 reactor and it is slowly being eaten by the flag fish but it is still present.
My plan is to get a large tank. From supporting my mother I got experience with a overflow schematic with a sump under the tank. For the salt water this was necessary to have all equipment under the tank.
Hardware:
- Tank 150 cm x 60 cm x 60 cm is approx 140 gallons
- Sump 120 cm x 40 cm x 40 cm is approx 50 gallons,
making the total approx 190 gallons
- Lights, will be bought from a local equipment store, no preferences yet
- Pumps, still need to decide
- CO2 reactor, will follow later as the DIY CO2 is working really well, and CO2 bottles cost approx EUR 25 for a litre locally, while DIY CO2 is about EUR 5 for the same quantity.
Q1 With salt water we always added the content of the tank and the content of the sump to come to the total gallons on which the fish are determined. So we would state that we have 190 gallons of water worth adding fish. I want approx 6 discus fish, but can I for completeness say that I would have 190 gallons of water to fill with fish or only the 140?
Q2 What types of product do you recommend for the sump
Planned Tank content
I would like to have fish, both discus and other fish, together with plants. The available fish I have at a local breeder are arround 10 to 12 cm, which would be roughly between 4 to 5 inch.
Q3 Are these “semi-adult” size?
Q4 The local breeder only has this size class available, as it will be my first time having discus can they still become stunted or are they already passed their “heavy grow” period?
I understand that the discus poop a lot. This was also the case with the salt water fish (man do they poop). About 3 years ago together with my mother we instilled a system at the bottom of the salt water tank, that is decribed on some sites as a undergravel jets. They are PVC pipes that are placed under the substrate (we had jack-in-a-box that liked to dig so we had a large substrate level). Several mouths of the PVC pipes were slightly above the substrate and created a light current (flow of water) that took all the poop and dropped it in the right corner where it was picked up by the filter. As a result even though there were a lot of big fish we never had to clean the substrate.
Q5 would such a system (undergravel jets) work in the planned tank and allow me to start without being a bare-bottom tank. I really want to have a planted tank.
Planned fish
- 3x blue turquase discus
- 3x pigeon blood discus
- 2x ramirez
- 2x Apisogramma (type not decided yet)
- 15x cardinal tetra
- 10x Rummy-nose tetra
- 10x Flag fish (already owned)
- 2x SAE (already owned)
- 3x Kuhli (already owned)
- 10x Oto’s (already own 5)
- 1x L144 (already owned)
- 14x Swordtails (already owned),
I do not like corry’s so no corry’s for me sorry
Temperature in current tank is approx. 27 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the breeder of the discus is 27,5 degrees Celsius. I know that discus like high temperature but to keep it easy I am going for local bred discus that are on the same tap water as my own tap water.
Q6 while I know that several fish in the above list are not native to the habitat of the discus, I was wondering if based on the above list would work. The owned fish are accustomed to each other
Q7 I really like “cave dwellers”, are there any compatible south American fish that go in caves?
I can use sillicone and PVC to construct a cave? I did the same for the salt water aquarium
Maintanance
I choose a planted tank and undergravel jets for a little less maintenance. I want to stick to a 1x a week of water changes. This was manageable with the salt water tank what I read on the net my schedule would be:
Daily:
- Feeding fish: in the morning and in the afternoon, various types of food
- Fertilizing plants: in the morning liquid fertilizer in the final chamber of the sump
Weekly
- Water changes about 40% (is twice the amount of the salt water tank changes), directly from the tab to the sump.
- Cleaning overflow filter
- Cleaning first chamber of the sump
- Cleaning tank, check gravel, cutting plants, removing potential mess in tank
Monthly
- Cleaning last chamber of sump and the middle chamber
Q8 Can I prevent daily water changes?
Q9 Can I change directly from the tab to the sump if the discus are bred on tab water by the breeder
Q10 If I buy discus roughly the size of 4 to 5 inch, and daily water changes are needed to raise them, how long would this be required. It is not my intention to get the maximum growth out of the discus but the optimum, would they stop needing daily water changes when they reach “sub-adult”
Q11 how long would it take to get a 4 – 5 inch discus to reach “sub-adult” is it six months or more like two years? If it is needed I want to start discus when I am able to commit to this
Compatible fish
I really like cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s. But with the Salt water fish we learned quickly if it fits in the mouth of a fish currently present it will be eaten. Our local fish store mentioned that angels and discus eat cardinal tetra’s unless they were raised with them.
Q12 Does it matter if there are cardinal tetra’s are present when the discus are raised or can I safely add them later when the discus are already raised to “semi adult” (after a quarantine period of 4 weeks). I expect to purchase them at a size of 1 inch.
Q13 Do cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s school together
Q14 Are Cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s good dither fish? Will the Discus swim with them or stalk them.
Q15 Unlike the aquarium books list my swordtail fish currently also appear to currently school, all the fish swim together up and down, do these fish also join them?
Other
Q16 Does increasing the tank size lower the maintenance? I prefer to water change less frequent but a bigger quantity than to do daily water changes, my work prevents me from having a lot of time for this during Monday till Friday.
Q18 Do you recommend any other fish that is not originally from South America? I prefer interesting fish over recreating the amazon?
Q19 My setup plan is as follows please comment:
- I plan to purchase the tank in about 1 month,
- it would take another 2 months before the tank and the sump will be delivered (backlog from the builder).
- I will then acquire the pumps, lights etc.
- I will prepare my own background from Styrofoam (also in current tank).
- I will run one month empty.
- I will place three plants and run another month.
- Based on the results of these three plants I plant many “easy” types of plants and start with DIY CO2, I will add the current fish (I know for certain that they do not carry deceases).
- I will add the discus another month later directly in the tank as they come from a good breeder I do not want to quarantine them.
- I will wait about 2 months to get the discus to be accustomed to the tank and to me
- I will add the remaining fish based on availability after a quarantine period of approx. 4 weeks. I do not prevently add medicine.
- I will enjoy between each step and afterwards
Q17 Do you have any other advise and did I miss anything
I look forward to your reactions as it is a serious time/money investment but I want to do it correctly from the start.
Thanks
Anton
I have always been near fish, my mother was a chemist and held salt-water fish for over 30 years now. When I got my own house I missed the sound of the salt water aquarium (about 200 gallons) but based on cost and on time constraints I was unable to start my own salt water aquarium. I started however about 2 years ago with a small fresh water aquarium that used to be the quarantine tank of the salt water aquarium of my mother. I was successful in raising and growing fry of: guppies, sword tails, flag fish and successful in keeping L144, oto’s, SAE, Rams, kuhli’s. I was not as good with the plants initially I had a large hair algue infestation that was eaten completely by the flag fish fry and I still have a lot of BBA, Black Brush Algue. I used a DIY co2 reactor and it is slowly being eaten by the flag fish but it is still present.
My plan is to get a large tank. From supporting my mother I got experience with a overflow schematic with a sump under the tank. For the salt water this was necessary to have all equipment under the tank.
Hardware:
- Tank 150 cm x 60 cm x 60 cm is approx 140 gallons
- Sump 120 cm x 40 cm x 40 cm is approx 50 gallons,
making the total approx 190 gallons
- Lights, will be bought from a local equipment store, no preferences yet
- Pumps, still need to decide
- CO2 reactor, will follow later as the DIY CO2 is working really well, and CO2 bottles cost approx EUR 25 for a litre locally, while DIY CO2 is about EUR 5 for the same quantity.
Q1 With salt water we always added the content of the tank and the content of the sump to come to the total gallons on which the fish are determined. So we would state that we have 190 gallons of water worth adding fish. I want approx 6 discus fish, but can I for completeness say that I would have 190 gallons of water to fill with fish or only the 140?
Q2 What types of product do you recommend for the sump
Planned Tank content
I would like to have fish, both discus and other fish, together with plants. The available fish I have at a local breeder are arround 10 to 12 cm, which would be roughly between 4 to 5 inch.
Q3 Are these “semi-adult” size?
Q4 The local breeder only has this size class available, as it will be my first time having discus can they still become stunted or are they already passed their “heavy grow” period?
I understand that the discus poop a lot. This was also the case with the salt water fish (man do they poop). About 3 years ago together with my mother we instilled a system at the bottom of the salt water tank, that is decribed on some sites as a undergravel jets. They are PVC pipes that are placed under the substrate (we had jack-in-a-box that liked to dig so we had a large substrate level). Several mouths of the PVC pipes were slightly above the substrate and created a light current (flow of water) that took all the poop and dropped it in the right corner where it was picked up by the filter. As a result even though there were a lot of big fish we never had to clean the substrate.
Q5 would such a system (undergravel jets) work in the planned tank and allow me to start without being a bare-bottom tank. I really want to have a planted tank.
Planned fish
- 3x blue turquase discus
- 3x pigeon blood discus
- 2x ramirez
- 2x Apisogramma (type not decided yet)
- 15x cardinal tetra
- 10x Rummy-nose tetra
- 10x Flag fish (already owned)
- 2x SAE (already owned)
- 3x Kuhli (already owned)
- 10x Oto’s (already own 5)
- 1x L144 (already owned)
- 14x Swordtails (already owned),
I do not like corry’s so no corry’s for me sorry
Temperature in current tank is approx. 27 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the breeder of the discus is 27,5 degrees Celsius. I know that discus like high temperature but to keep it easy I am going for local bred discus that are on the same tap water as my own tap water.
Q6 while I know that several fish in the above list are not native to the habitat of the discus, I was wondering if based on the above list would work. The owned fish are accustomed to each other
Q7 I really like “cave dwellers”, are there any compatible south American fish that go in caves?
I can use sillicone and PVC to construct a cave? I did the same for the salt water aquarium
Maintanance
I choose a planted tank and undergravel jets for a little less maintenance. I want to stick to a 1x a week of water changes. This was manageable with the salt water tank what I read on the net my schedule would be:
Daily:
- Feeding fish: in the morning and in the afternoon, various types of food
- Fertilizing plants: in the morning liquid fertilizer in the final chamber of the sump
Weekly
- Water changes about 40% (is twice the amount of the salt water tank changes), directly from the tab to the sump.
- Cleaning overflow filter
- Cleaning first chamber of the sump
- Cleaning tank, check gravel, cutting plants, removing potential mess in tank
Monthly
- Cleaning last chamber of sump and the middle chamber
Q8 Can I prevent daily water changes?
Q9 Can I change directly from the tab to the sump if the discus are bred on tab water by the breeder
Q10 If I buy discus roughly the size of 4 to 5 inch, and daily water changes are needed to raise them, how long would this be required. It is not my intention to get the maximum growth out of the discus but the optimum, would they stop needing daily water changes when they reach “sub-adult”
Q11 how long would it take to get a 4 – 5 inch discus to reach “sub-adult” is it six months or more like two years? If it is needed I want to start discus when I am able to commit to this
Compatible fish
I really like cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s. But with the Salt water fish we learned quickly if it fits in the mouth of a fish currently present it will be eaten. Our local fish store mentioned that angels and discus eat cardinal tetra’s unless they were raised with them.
Q12 Does it matter if there are cardinal tetra’s are present when the discus are raised or can I safely add them later when the discus are already raised to “semi adult” (after a quarantine period of 4 weeks). I expect to purchase them at a size of 1 inch.
Q13 Do cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s school together
Q14 Are Cardinal tetra’s and rummy nose tetra’s good dither fish? Will the Discus swim with them or stalk them.
Q15 Unlike the aquarium books list my swordtail fish currently also appear to currently school, all the fish swim together up and down, do these fish also join them?
Other
Q16 Does increasing the tank size lower the maintenance? I prefer to water change less frequent but a bigger quantity than to do daily water changes, my work prevents me from having a lot of time for this during Monday till Friday.
Q18 Do you recommend any other fish that is not originally from South America? I prefer interesting fish over recreating the amazon?
Q19 My setup plan is as follows please comment:
- I plan to purchase the tank in about 1 month,
- it would take another 2 months before the tank and the sump will be delivered (backlog from the builder).
- I will then acquire the pumps, lights etc.
- I will prepare my own background from Styrofoam (also in current tank).
- I will run one month empty.
- I will place three plants and run another month.
- Based on the results of these three plants I plant many “easy” types of plants and start with DIY CO2, I will add the current fish (I know for certain that they do not carry deceases).
- I will add the discus another month later directly in the tank as they come from a good breeder I do not want to quarantine them.
- I will wait about 2 months to get the discus to be accustomed to the tank and to me
- I will add the remaining fish based on availability after a quarantine period of approx. 4 weeks. I do not prevently add medicine.
- I will enjoy between each step and afterwards
Q17 Do you have any other advise and did I miss anything
I look forward to your reactions as it is a serious time/money investment but I want to do it correctly from the start.
Thanks
Anton