New fish for QT after completing QT of other fish

[ilaizm]

I am currently quarantining rummies and 2 bushy nose in my secondary tank. Once they get transfered to the large tank i'll be getting some more discus and quarantining them in the tank where I quarantined the rummies.

Do I need to do anything to the tank/water when inserting the discus for quarantine? I didn't use any medicine or any other stuff whilst quarantining the rummies.

[poconogal]

You need to thoroughly clean the tank and filter, media included, before putting Discus in for QT. You can use a solution of bleach and water. There are threads on SD that advise on the ratio of bleach to water to use.

[Eddie]

Definitely agree with Connie, break everything down and clean it well with bleach and water.

Eddie

[ilaizm]

Even if I didn't notice anything wrong in the quarantined fish?

[Eddie]

Even if I didn't notice anything wrong in the quarantined fish?

Yup ;)

Eddie

[KDodds]

Just another POV, but I don't break down QTs unless there's been a problem. The reasoning being that the new fish will be pre-exposed (given a reasonable timeline) to anything that has gone into the main tank, revealing any potential problems in that regard before they happen. JMO.

[poconogal]

True, but since the former inhabitants of QT will already be in the main tank, they can infect the main tank, but least then the new inhabitants of the QT shouldn't be affected as long as the QT tank has been thoroughly cleaned. Of course if enough time is allowed to pass between moving the rummies out of QT and putting the new Discus into QT and there's been no outbreak in the main tank, then sterilizing the QT really shouldn't be necessary, but to me it sounds as if once the currently QT'd fish are out of there the OP will be putting new Discus in there very quickly.

ilaizm, how quickly will you be putting the Discus into that tank? Will you be waiting at least 2-3 weeks (the time when something would show up in the main tank)? Also, are the parameters in your QT the same as those of your main tank?

[Roxanne]

Shouldn't we be getting the meds out anyway? I thought I we should break the QT down and sterilise it before it is reused.. If we don't, isn't there the possibility of exposing them to med resistant strains of anything left behind? And, also, wouldn't that alter the dynamic in the event of an outbreak so you wouldn't know if you were dealing with an existing issue you'd exposed new fish to, or an introduced one?...just curious though I know you have been fish keeping a long time Keiren so you must have considered these variables, if they even are variables, otherwise it's just me rambling.:D...

Rox

[Eddie]

I like to elimniate any and all risk. Some don't and they are lucky. ;)

I suck when it comes to gambling so I stay out of the casino.

Eddie

[KDodds]

Shouldn't we be getting the meds out anyway? I thought I we should break the QT down and sterilise it before it is reused.. If we don't, isn't there the possibility of exposing them to med resistant strains of anything left behind? And, also, wouldn't that alter the dynamic in the event of an outbreak so you wouldn't know if you were dealing with an existing issue you'd exposed new fish to, or an introduced one?...just curious though I know you have been fish keeping a long time Keiren so you must have considered these variables, if they even are variables, otherwise it's just me rambling.:D...

Rox

Absolutely. I don't treat "preventatively". That's kind of like taking a shotgun to your house because you think you MIGHT have a mouse in most cases. Preventatives that don't work like this (i.e. Cu treatment for external parasites, or hypo/hyper saline treatments) aren't particularly useful in a long term FW QT tank. So... there would only be meds if the fish in QT fell ill. In that case, yes, by all means, break it down and restart. However, if the QT was uneventful, I see no reason why it should be broken down and restarted. Here's the thing. In an uneventful QT, yes, pathogenic organisms can be left behind. Just because the old fish were asymptomatic doesn't mean the new ones will be, right? But those old fish went in to the main tank, right? They may have carried those pathogens with them. In which case, the newcomers would be exposed post QT. If they're prone to the disease, wouldn't it be better if they contracted it in the QT rather than the main tank? ;) That's for uneventful QTs only. Any QT that becomes hospitalization and treatment is a different story. Then, by all means, break down and restart.

[Jhhnn]

I dunno... I think different methods serve different purposes. Kenny disinfects all his holding tanks between shipments, for example, but his purposes are different than a hobbyist's.

If new fish pass quarantine and are introduced into the hobbyist's general population, then whatever they brought with 'em comes along, too. That's true whether or not they were treated and cured of any ailment. If they're healthy, then the tank they were kept in is healthy, and if they're not, it's like closing the barn door after the horses are out...

If quarantined fish die or are intentionally destroyed because of untreatable illness, then yeh, for sure, the tank must be thoroughly disinfected...

Having passed quarantine, new fish will always end up exposed to whatever is in their new tank, and will probably be exposed immediately via the practice of seeding the qt tank from a hobbyist's existing tanks... If we don't have confidence in the health of our existing stock, then we really shouldn't be introducing new fish, anyway.

If a hobbyist has enough tanks in enough different places that they essentially have several different systems, with a single quarantine entryway, then the qt tank really should be disinfected between batches...

Just the way I see it...

[TankWatcher]

I don't break down my QT - unless there has been a known problem or I have no need to keep the tank running.

My QT period goes for at least 8 weeks on their own, then another 4 weeks with a "hero" fish from the display tank. If I have had absolutely no issue with the fish when they move onto the main display tank, I can't see a reason to pull the QT down. It would mean killing the good bacteria for no reason that I can see.

This is just what has worked for me and I'm not saying it is the best way (just my way).

[JimL]

If I have had absolutely no issue with the fish when they move onto the main display tank, I can't see a reason to pull the QT down. It would mean killing the good bacteria for no reason that I can see.

This is just what has worked for me and I'm not saying it is the best way (just my way).

I agree 110%. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.`

[Eddie]

All fish have different immunities, because the last group did not display any issues does bit mean they were not carriers. Then you throw new stressed fish in the QT....BAM, you have something explode. Happened to me before so I don't play. Either you are all lucky or I am just unlucky. ;)

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

All fish have different immunities, because the last group did not display any issues does bit mean they were not carriers. Then you throw new stressed fish in the QT....BAM, you have something explode. Happened to me before so I don't play. Either you are all lucky or I am just unlucky. ;)

Eddie

Makes sense if once you move on previous QT occupants, you are never going to mix them with the new QT occupants in a future display tank.

But for me, the thing is Eddie, any fish that makes it out of my QT is destined for one of the 3 display tanks. All fish in those tanks must capable of being inter-changed, in case I need to free up an emergency tank.

For example, my remaining 2 wild greens had to move in with the wild browns to make room for the 2 ex Challenge fish that Rox gifted to me. Now that I know they are a fertile couple, they will move to a breeder soon & something else will move back into that tank. (Yes, there have been "hero" fish tests already done between all 3 display tanks, so I knew this would be safe).

If I were to completely nuke a QT, because I fear that something from the previous occupants might effect them, eventually the new guys will share a display tank with those same earlier occupants anyway - so the BAM will happen, just at a later stage. Hopefully, though, a "hero" test will let me know this though, before they move on.

I am usually more concerned about my existing tank stock & their health & that's why I do the "hero" fish thing, before the QT's move on. I seldom QT more than 2 fish at a time.

I also would worry more about not having cycled filters for new stressed stock, if I had previously nuked the media. I think I read that you always start from an uncycled tank, but I couldn't do that. I have ammonia & nitrate in my tap water, whereas none of my cycled tanks have any ammonia. To start with an uncycled tank, with my tap water, is asking for trouble. I know you can keep a tank cycled fishlessly, but keeping a QT cycled long term that way isn't for me.

To date, it is always the new fish that get sick. Never the ones that I consider have made it past their QT.

Hope a fish doesn't fall ill in one of the display's anytime soon, or I'll be eating my words, won't I ? :o

[Jhhnn]

All fish have different immunities, because the last group did not display any issues does bit mean they were not carriers. Then you throw new stressed fish in the QT....BAM, you have something explode. Happened to me before so I don't play. Either you are all lucky or I am just unlucky. ;)

Eddie

If the "explosion" happened in the QT tank, and not your other tanks, I'd suspect whatever happened as being something the new fish brought with them to your place...

Yeh, sure, stressed fish have lower immunity- OTOH, sick fish are stressed fish...

Most of the pathogens we encounter need a host to survive, so if the QT tank is fishless for a sufficient period of time, it should be pretty much pathogen free. And for the most part, the opportunistic type of bacterial/fungal pathogens are already present in healthy aquariums, anyway. I'm also skeptical that different fish of the same species would have radically different immunities, as well.

I realize that you do 90% daily water changes, but most of us simply can't do that, so we need live biofilters to help us out, and we can't get that in essentially virgin tanks. Even if we completely break down the QT tank, sanitize it, we're still in the position where we'll need sponge filters from established tanks in the QT tank... the donor tanks being the same place that the last batch of QT fish ended up...

Hell, I do 50% daily water changes, and I'm sure that I'm considered a fanatic by many...

[YSS]

From what I've read on this forum, there's minimal risk between rummies and discus getting each other sick. So, I think you are OK. I guess I have been lucky, but there's too much paranoia on this forum when it comes to QT. Yes, better to be safe than sorry, so if you live by that, don't fly or better yet, don't even drive. Better chance of dying while driving than flying. How can you take that chance? :D

[Eddie]

If the "explosion" happened in the QT tank, and not your other tanks, I'd suspect whatever happened as being something the new fish brought with them to your place...

Yeh, sure, stressed fish have lower immunity- OTOH, sick fish are stressed fish...

Most of the pathogens we encounter need a host to survive, so if the QT tank is fishless for a sufficient period of time, it should be pretty much pathogen free. And for the most part, the opportunistic type of bacterial/fungal pathogens are already present in healthy aquariums, anyway. I'm also skeptical that different fish of the same species would have radically different immunities, as well.

I realize that you do 90% daily water changes, but most of us simply can't do that, so we need live biofilters to help us out, and we can't get that in essentially virgin tanks. Even if we completely break down the QT tank, sanitize it, we're still in the position where we'll need sponge filters from established tanks in the QT tank... the donor tanks being the same place that the last batch of QT fish ended up...

Hell, I do 50% daily water changes, and I'm sure that I'm considered a fanatic by many...

Its always nice to suspect, like I said, I don't take risks. There will be a day for everyone. Good luck. ;)


Eddie

[Daniella]

Well that's the hick. If the fish are sick and you transfer them to the main tank, what ever they have will be transfered to the main tank.

If you are 100% sure they have nothing, then maybe using bleach is not necessary. How long you had them in quarantene?

Another issue is the biofilter in that tank. If you wipe it with bleach, you will have other issue like ammonia. If you don't wipe it with bleach, and clean the tank throughout then whatever is in there will remain in there still.

Personaly I just clean the tank with a rubbing sponge and tap water and squeeze the filter sponge in dechlorinated water. I would only use bleach (I use PP instead) when I know for sure there was a disease, and then I even wipe the biofilter and start new with something I know is disease free.

A good practice would be to also leave the aquarium without fish for like 2 weeks before adding fish so that any parasites would have starved...but if you put those fish you have in the main tank and they do have parasited, then it's a bit pointless to do that :)




Even if I didn't notice anything wrong in the quarantined fish?

[Daniella]

Stress?

I recently had blackening disease with my discus. I had just received new fish and they were all fine in the QT..yet all my fish in the main tank became very sick. there was no sharing of equipement but the 2 tanks were in the same room.

The stressed fish (new fish) got nothing at all or bearely a slight reaction to the disease from only one of the 3 new fish and it was very light reaction and went away fast. Those fish were extremely stressed as they had just went through a 20 hours fligth from Malaysia.

My old fish, wich were absolutely NOT stressed got sick big time. All of them started to show symptoms of discus plague (exemple) about 20 to 24 hours after I had received the new fish.

So is stress a factor? not necessary as it was not at all in my case.

The new fish had immunity to that disease already so even if they were very stressed, they were not sick despite because they had immunity, whereas the old fish did not have any immunity (now they do).



Yeh, sure, stressed fish have lower immunity- OTOH, sick fish are stressed fish...

[YSS]

I recently had blackening disease with my discus. I had just received new fish and they were all fine in the QT..yet all my fish in the main tank became very sick. there was no sharing of equipement but the 2 tanks were in the same room.



I just can't understand how things like this could happen. This is just crazy. And some of you say keeping discus is easy....

[MSD]

Nothing that comes easy is worthwhile. Others experience may be a guide but believe half of what you see and none of what you hear is a very old saying, get it?

[Ardan]

I just can't understand how things like this could happenActually it can happen. There are diseases that can be transmitted by airborne particles.

Ardan

[KDodds]

...and also simply by the aquarist moving from one tank to another. It's very difficult to "sterilize" your hands in between, say, feeding. This is something I've had to do before, and it's a major pain in the butt. I'd lay down toweling as I prepared food cups. Take the food cups to the tank, discard the toweling, sterlize hands, start with the next tank. Then, I had to repeat the whole process between tanks. Major bummer and takes forever to feed. But, I had to eliminate cross contamination by myself from the equation.

[Daniella]

It's easy as long as you don't get into trouble :) Otherwise they are sensitive to disease, parasites and bacterial disease. They need extra clean water becaus they eat a lot and fool the water quickly if water is not changed or syphoned often.

I syphon dirth before and after I feed. I do it before just to make sure they don't eat poop. I have a bare bottom tank so that's easy. I syphon about one hour after the meal because the bottom is FULL of poop! Amazing how 10 fish can make such mess in such short time :)

But..they are tough fish. all of mine survived the disease, even my tiny 2" discus. They can survive being shipped in bag for like 24 hours and I think the wild are going through much worse treatment for about a month after they are cought.

Definitly not easy to keep. My tetra have no problem what so ever.



I just can't understand how things like this could happen. This is just crazy. And some of you say keeping discus is easy....

[Daniella]

yep, and the new fish definitly had immunity to this bacteria as they were not sick. Only one of the new fish has very small amount of the disease but it was nothing compare to what my old fish had. It is not a good idea to have the QT in the same room as the main tank, I know now..so next fish order I will be putting the QT on the top floor! My QT was right beside the main tank.. not good.





Actually it can happen. There are diseases that can be transmitted by airborne particles.

Ardan

[Daniella]

I use antibacterial dish washing soap with as hot as my hands can stand (which is very hot). ain,t that enough? says it kill germs and bacterias.

How do you sterilize your hands?



...and also simply by the aquarist moving from one tank to another. It's very difficult to "sterilize" your hands in between, say, feeding. This is something I've had to do before, and it's a major pain in the butt. I'd lay down toweling as I prepared food cups. Take the food cups to the tank, discard the toweling, sterlize hands, start with the next tank. Then, I had to repeat the whole process between tanks. Major bummer and takes forever to feed. But, I had to eliminate cross contamination by myself from the equation.

[YSS]

Actually it can happen. There are diseases that can be transmitted by airborne particles.

Ardan

So, you are saying that whatever is carrying the disease in one tank, gets ariborne, get into another tank, and get fisn in the other tank sick? I will have to do some research on this subject, but that sounds highly improbable.

[mmorris]

Bacterias, I believe, can cause cross-contamination by being air-born but not parasites. While we might like to believe it's the reason for spreading disease, I think it rarely is. Perhaps someone with more knowledge about this than me might tell us more. The normal reason for cross-contamination is that drops of water moved from one tank to another. It's incredibly easy to do if the tanks are in the same room.
I once asked at the pharmacy for a soap that would steralize my hands, explaining that I had an outbreak of parasites in my tanks, and I was told only a prescription soap would make any difference. Even then she seemed skeptical. Boiling for 20 minutes steralizes and because I don't consider this an option for my hands, if desperate, I bleach them.
I'd follow Robyn's advice with the `hero' fish, or `sacrificial lamb.'

[poconogal]

I think there are things that are overlooked also. For instance, if I have my hands in one tank, then I turn on the water to wash up with soap. I thoroughly scrub up, then I turn off the water. Well, I may have contaminated the faucet handles when I turned the water on, but did I scrub up those handles while scrubbing my hands in order to decontaminate them too? If not, and if there's any bacteria or parasites left on the faucet handles, I've just re-contaminated my hand when I shut off the water. Same thing goes for the alcohol bottle when you pick it up to sterilize your hands. I now wipe down faucet handles and even the alcohol bottle after I sterilize my hands before I touch handles and bottle again.

[mmorris]

Alcohol is a good idea!

[poconogal]

Yep, I prefer it to soap and water. I was always worried about not getting the soap off my hands entirely, but with the alcohol, rinse, let air dry, and you're good to go. I also picked up alcohol towels which are great, easy to use.

[mmorris]

I also picked up alcohol towels which are great, easy to use.

Oh yea! I'll remember that one.

[YSS]

By the way, how effective is the hero fish method? It seems to me that hero fish proves that the hero fish will be ok or get sick from the new fish or that the hero fish will or will not get the new fish sick in the main tank. It may provide an indication as to how the new and existing fish will do once they are mixed in together, but I think it provides little hint as to how all fish will do when mixed with the new batch. In my experience, it's never the entire tank of fish, but an individual fish that get sick (new or old). So, if you are going with the hero fish route, you would have to do that with all your fish. Can you take that chance? :)

[TankWatcher]

By the way, how effective is the hero fish method? It seems to me that hero fish proves that the hero fish will be ok or get sick from the new fish or that the hero fish will or will not get the new fish sick in the main tank. It may provide an indication as to how the new and existing fish will do once they are mixed in together, but I think it provides little hint as to how all fish will do when mixed with the new batch. In my experience, it's never the entire tank of fish, but an individual fish that get sick (new or old). So, if you are going with the hero fish route, you would have to do that with all your fish. Can you take that chance? :)The only way to be 100% sure is never to mix any new fish with your existing stock, ever. That just isn't how it works at my place, as in most cases my QT'ing fish are destined to join a display tank with other discus already in situ. So, I have to take the next safest route, which is the hero fish route. Nothing is ever going to be 100% foolproof, but I am fairly comfortable in this method, as being the best precaution I can take before mixing the "old" with the "new".

Sure you can take it one step further as you suggest, but so far, I haven't felt that need.

[poconogal]

Robyn, that's 100% true. Honestly, I've never done the hero fish thing. I QT, wait 5-6 weeks, and then for the next 2 weeks, I will put my hands in the main tank and then not wash them off before putting them in QT. After a week of that, I'll put my hand in the QT and then into the main tank. After another week I then plop 'em into my main tank, while crossing fingers and saying a prayer. I've never, except for one time 15 years ago and that most likely was due to New York City water issues and e-coli at the time, had any sort of issues doing this.

[YSS]

Robyn, that's 100% true. Honestly, I've never done the hero fish thing. I QT, wait 5-6 weeks, and then for the next 2 weeks, I will put my hands in the main tank and then not wash them off before putting them in QT. After a week of that, I'll put my hand in the QT and then into the main tank. After another week I then plop 'em into my main tank, while crossing fingers and saying a prayer. I've never, except for one time 15 years ago and that most likely was due to New York City water issues and e-coli at the time, had any sort of issues doing this.

Interesting .... I suppose the first part of you hand method is somewhat equivalent to the hero fish, but what's the purpose of the second part of your hand method? If there's something bad in the QT water, then you just contaminated the main tank. Doesn't sound like the method is providing additional protection. Putting the contaminated water in the main tank vs. contaminated fish, right? Did I miss something?

[Armandi_Fishcarer]

I gotta say that when my newbies are introduced into the QT, it is an established 1. So it has benefical bacteria & as the tank should be cycled(I hope) :p the fish will should not get sick or contract disease. What happens when you have a QT from scratch & you let it cycle with your new stock, it will all fall apart I guess. Have you ever seen a "Labidochromis caeruleus"(Electric Yellow) go black or to a really dark yellow & never return its colour, for beginners getting the wrong advice & cycling the tank with these fish. So a great way of setting up a QT is too strip it down & wash it with bleach, every time it has an issue, new stock is coming(in which time you can cycle it) & when not in use. I also use the hero method, although only for comfort & support!

Only you/I know our water & tanks best! :D

Regards
Ahmed ;)

[KDodds]

Hand "sanitizers" and "antibacterial" soaps are not as good as alcohol or dilute chlorine solution at eliminating bacteria. Since dumping one's hands in a bucket of chlorox and water is probably not prudent, never mind keeping said bucket around and open, alcohol it is. ;)

[poconogal]

Interesting .... I suppose the first part of you hand method is somewhat equivalent to the hero fish, but what's the purpose of the second part of your hand method? If there's something bad in the QT water, then you just contaminated the main tank. Doesn't sound like the method is providing additional protection. Putting the contaminated water in the main tank vs. contaminated fish, right? Did I miss something?
Well, its not to provide additional protection. I do this AFTER 6 weeks of QT, prior to moving the fish into the main tank. So, yes, the idea is to see if anything from QT is going to contaminate the main tank, before I bother to move the fish over, after the 6 weeks plus QT is finished.

[Ardan]

So, you are saying that whatever is carrying the disease in one tank, gets ariborne, get into another tank, and get fisn in the other tank sick? I will have to do some research on this subject, but that sounds highly improbable.

YSS

I believe columnaris is a disease that can be spread through the air.

it has the potential to spread through the air to another tank, http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/external/columnaris.shtml
This is not at all highly improbable
Many bacteria/virus are spread through the air when we sneeze. the same is possible through the air in a fish room as we have air bubbles through the water bursting when they hit the air. Moisture is spread throughout the room.

hth
Ardan

[YSS]

Ok. Let me do some more research and get back to you.

[Ardan]

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119955575/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Aerosols.html
a couple links:)

hth
Ardan

[YSS]

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119955575/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Aerosols.html
a couple links:)

hth
Ardan

:shocked::shocked::shocked: I stand corrected. Ok, everyone go get a UV sterilzer.

[Ardan]

I don't use a uv, but do quarantine new fish, wash between tanks and keep the tanks clean. Usually works, but always learning:)

take care
Ardan