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Daniella
06-21-2009, 02:32 PM
So I went to my local Big Al pet store in Montreal and to my surprised they had a nice heckel. The fish looked healthy enough, just a bit of going by itself in the corner. It was 59$ with is quite cheap around here, so I asked myself what's the catch?

I asked the guy to feed it and he gave it pellets..not eating but some interest to the food. He then gave frozen bloodworms and they fish eated with gusto. So I went ahead and bought it.

My first heckel and I have no clue how to properly take care of it. They had it for 3 months in half tap half RO at Ph of 6.8. I tested the water in the bag and it was Gh 5, Kh 2, Ph 6.8.

My water for my discus is Gh 7, Kh 5 and Ph 7.6. I mix it with RO 1/3 to get Gh 5 and Kh2, but my freaking Ph is still 7.4 to 7.6.

The only way I see am I going to get the water right is to mix 50/50 and that drop my Ph to about 7.0.

Can a heckel live and thrive in Ph of 7, Gh 5 and Kh2? or do they need softer water and lower Ph?

What about my other discus? Can I keep them in such soft water together?

I plan on quarantine that heckel for like 5 to 6 weeks. It was treated for worms with prazipro, that's all.. they give their wild discus metro pellets but of course that heckel did not care at all for pellets..so obviously it can have some hex. Should I treat it for hex as a prevention or just observe it for 6 weeks?

My first heckel and I am really excited :) Want to do the things right for that poor fish that was swimming freely in the Amazone few months ago.

Eddie
06-21-2009, 03:08 PM
No, a heckel cannot thrive in 7.0 ph. Can it survive, yes but IMO, for the fish to thrive as in its natural habitat, you need to try to mimic or at least come close to its natural waters.

Your other fish could probably enjoy the lower PH also but you'd have to keep it constant. One thing you were mentioning in the past was how to keep your PH constant without performing daily WCs. Your heckel will require prestine water all day long so skipping a few days of tank maintenance may seem like nothing to the fish, you are causing undo stress. This will take it's toll over time and break the fish down.

I would suggest you read just about every post in the Heckel Project section and get spun up quick if you intend to keep the fish alive.

Eddie

Daniella
06-21-2009, 04:03 PM
I do 30% water change each day. Currently I use 1/3 RO/tap water and it's not enough to lower my Ph.

I plan on doing 50/50 RO/tap in the future. Will that be good?

And how do I safely lower my Ph? is 6.8 ok for heckel?

My RO water as it come out of the unit is pretty acid. It's off the chart in the acid zone, so I can lower it by adding more RO but then I lower my Kh as well.

How do people get Kh of 5 and Ph of 6.8 or 6.6?? I mean beside adding CO2 which is not an option for me at this point (too expensive).

I also have black water extract from Tetra, should I add this?

When I was saying that I cannot do water change that was when going in vacations for 7 to 8 days.

For now I have added more RO water to the 20 gallon QT where the heckel is. I can add black water extract?




No, a heckel cannot thrive in 7.0 ph. Can it survive, yes but IMO, for the fish to thrive as in its natural habitat, you need to try to mimic or at least come close to its natural waters.

Your other fish could probably enjoy the lower PH also but you'd have to keep it constant. One thing you were mentioning in the past was how to keep your PH constant without performing daily WCs. Your heckel will require prestine water all day long so skipping a few days of tank maintenance may seem like nothing to the fish, you are causing undo stress. This will take it's toll over time and break the fish down.

I would suggest you read just about every post in the Heckel Project section and get spun up quick if you intend to keep the fish alive.

Eddie

MSD
06-21-2009, 04:50 PM
How can you possibly give discus care information stated as fact, which you do often, when you are not even sure yourself what to do??? :confused:

ShinShin
06-21-2009, 06:30 PM
Blackwater extract is not really an product to be used for discus with the number of water changes we do. It would not be cost effective. You can use peat moss in a storage barrel to soften and lower your water's pH.

R/O water should read slightly acidic, but has no buffering capacity. You can use your 50/50 mix and add phosphoric or muratic acid to the desired pH is achieved. Although 6.8pH is better than 7.0, (5.8-6.0 would be excellant), it is not that much better.

Mat

MSD
06-21-2009, 06:46 PM
Hey, how have you been doing Mat?

ShinShin
06-21-2009, 07:56 PM
Great. You?

MSD
06-21-2009, 08:41 PM
Not bad for an old guy. ;)

Daniella
06-21-2009, 09:04 PM
what the heck are you talking about??? You often don't make much sense but this is ridiculous.


How can you possibly give discus care information stated as fact, which you do often, when you are not even sure yourself what to do??? :confused:

Daniella
06-21-2009, 09:12 PM
Will any type of peat do? or do I need one that is specific for aquarium?

Or if I use muratic acid, do I still need the peat?

And where do you buy muratic acid?

My Ph chart goes to 6.0 minimum so I am not sure what my RO water Ph is but it's yellow on the API Ph chart so it's probably 6.0 or lower. My Ph kit does not go lower so I am not sure what is the real Ph of my RO water.

This heckel was kept in Ph of 6.8 for the last 4 months.

I don't know why but my RO water is quite acid, not what I would consider slightly acid since it's lower than 6.0.





Blackwater extract is not really an product to be used for discus with the number of water changes we do. It would not be cost effective. You can use peat moss in a storage barrel to soften and lower your water's pH.

R/O water should read slightly acidic, but has no buffering capacity. You can use your 50/50 mix and add phosphoric or muratic acid to the desired pH is achieved. Although 6.8pH is better than 7.0, (5.8-6.0 would be excellant), it is not that much better.

Mat

Eddie
06-21-2009, 11:02 PM
So the heckel has been stressed for over 4 months in those conditions. There probably alot more things you are going to have to deal with.

If you are thinking of using straight RO, that is even worse. As Mat mentioned, use an RO/Tap mix to have some buffering capability and to have essential minerals still available. You can use the muriatic acid or peat to drop the PH. Using Peat, you need to use straight peat, none with fertilizers or other ingredients. There are specific peat granules made for aquarium usage.

Another good item that I have been using is Indian Almond leaves which will give your water a nice tea color and your heckel will love it, this is the same as with the Peat. Not sure if you want all your other fish in tea colored water but your heckel will prefer it. You should have sand and driftwood in the tank.


Keep reading also,

Eddie

seanyuki
06-22-2009, 01:19 AM
Try using peats for aquarium

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo232/aiseanyuki/peat1010.jpg


D...you also need a portable digital PH pen to check PH lower than 6

Daniella
06-22-2009, 07:15 AM
Yes I noticed that my Ph kit does not reach below 6. I already ordered a TDS meter, now will need a ph meter.

something like this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Milwaukee-pH600-Digital-pH-Tester-Meter-Pocket-Pen-New_W0QQitemZ270401897641QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3ef53584a9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50



Try using peats for aquarium

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo232/aiseanyuki/peat1010.jpg


D...you also need a portable digital PH pen to check PH lower than 6

Daniella
06-22-2009, 07:20 AM
The hecked was stressed much more than that. I saw videos and I read about what they suffer before they reach pet store, and it's a very long journey in bad conditions. Lots of drop in temperature, lots of manipulations.

The fish is fat though, and look quite good.

I will mix tap and RO until I get the right Ph. that's a lot of RO vs tap, like 80% RO 20% tap probably.

I saw these peat granule but they were quite expensive. Not sure how long they last.

Where do you buy indian almond leaves? At health stores?




So the heckel has been stressed for over 4 months in those conditions. There probably alot more things you are going to have to deal with.

If you are thinking of using straight RO, that is even worse. As Mat mentioned, use an RO/Tap mix to have some buffering capability and to have essential minerals still available. You can use the muriatic acid or peat to drop the PH. Using Peat, you need to use straight peat, none with fertilizers or other ingredients. There are specific peat granules made for aquarium usage.

Another good item that I have been using is Indian Almond leaves which will give your water a nice tea color and your heckel will love it, this is the same as with the Peat. Not sure if you want all your other fish in tea colored water but your heckel will prefer it. You should have sand and driftwood in the tank.


Keep reading also,

Eddie

Eddie
06-22-2009, 07:24 AM
The hecked was stressed much more than that. I saw videos and I read about what they suffer before they reach pet store, and it's a very long journey in bad conditions. Lots of drop in temperature, lots of manipulations.

The fish is fat though, and look quite good.

I will mix tap and RO until I get the right Ph. that's a lot of RO vs tap, like 80% RO 20% tap probably.

I saw these peat granule but they were quite expensive. Not sure how long they last.

Where do you buy indian almond leaves? At health stores?


I get mine from this place

http://aqmagic.com/store/product_info.php?pName=indian-almond-leaves-20-pcs-set

Also, depending on how much peat you use and size of tank, I generally replaced mine every month.

Eddie

Daniella
06-22-2009, 10:54 AM
I think I will go with the peat. With all the water change, the leaves becoming expensive on the long run, to change each week.

I guess it was a bad idea to buy it before knowing anything about them because I have no choice now but to put it with my other domestic fish.

I have no room for other tank and no other heckel so it would be just alone. Finding heckel is a hard thing to do and they only had one. They receive them only once a year the guy said, like it's seasonal shipment.

I feel bad that I bought it but it's too late to turn back now.



I get mine from this place

http://aqmagic.com/store/product_info.php?pName=indian-almond-leaves-20-pcs-set

Also, depending on how much peat you use and size of tank, I generally replaced mine every month.

Eddie

Eddie
06-22-2009, 11:00 AM
I think I will go with the peat. With all the water change, the leaves becoming expensive on the long run, to change each week.

I guess it was a bad idea to buy it before knowing anything about them because I have no choice now but to put it with my other domestic fish.

I have no room for other tank and no other heckel so it would be just alone. Finding heckel is a hard thing to do and they only had one. They receive them only once a year the guy said, like it's seasonal shipment.

I feel bad that I bought it but it's too late to turn back now.

Not really, you can talk to the store owner. No use in draining the fish til the end.

Eddie

Daniella
06-22-2009, 02:22 PM
They will not take the fish back because it was a special price from 79$ cut down to 59$. They say it is used to be with domestic discus and was doing fine with them for 4 months, so no problem with domestic. They say if it eat well it's not so stressed and it will adjust no problem.

Probably if I would have returned it, it would have stayed there for quite some time, since it was there already for so long. With all these beautiful colorfull discus they have, most people will find a heckel dull and boring I would guess.

The fish looks very relax today. It eated lots of bloodworms. Seem to have good appetite for now. I am surprised that it eated so quickly after being changed from place as it eated also yesterday about 2 hours after arriving to my place. I am prepairing lots of RO water to help it. Not sure what else to do. I have no choice but to do a quarantine on it.

I plan on doing a medication for internal worms as the fish don't seem to have flukes and was treated for flukes but for worms. So I plan on using wormer plus on it and that's flubendazole made by Hikari.














Not really, you can talk to the store owner. No use in draining the fish til the end.

Eddie

Eddie
06-22-2009, 11:13 PM
They will not take the fish back because it was a special price from 79$ cut down to 59$. They say it is used to be with domestic discus and was doing fine with them for 4 months, so no problem with domestic. They say if it eat well it's not so stressed and it will adjust no problem.

Probably if I would have returned it, it would have stayed there for quite some time, since it was there already for so long. With all these beautiful colorfull discus they have, most people will find a heckel dull and boring I would guess.

The fish looks very relax today. It eated lots of bloodworms. Seem to have good appetite for now. I am surprised that it eated so quickly after being changed from place as it eated also yesterday about 2 hours after arriving to my place. I am prepairing lots of RO water to help it. Not sure what else to do. I have no choice but to do a quarantine on it.

I plan on doing a medication for internal worms as the fish don't seem to have flukes and was treated for flukes but for worms. So I plan on using wormer plus on it and that's flubendazole made by Hikari.

The LFS can sell you an inflatable dart board. They are not in the business for the well being of the fish if you have not realized that some time ago.

Your heckel can survive in with any fish and probably with almost any water for a given period of time. The LFS does do some tank maintenance. Now, because the fish survived 4 months in the LFS aquarium with domestic discus does in no way shape or form mean that it was thriving in those condition. I'd like to say that in all reality, that fish was suffering for 4 months in those conditions and you are getting the the short end of the stick. Now I wish you luck with this fish but remember all these posts because I hate saying "I told you so".


Take care and this where I step out of the thread,

Eddie

Daniella
06-23-2009, 12:25 AM
Well for now it seem like comfortable and relax. It has huge appetite and eat all the bloodworms and white worms I give it.

All I can do is give it good water and good food. I put mostly RO water there so the Ph is a bit lower and Gh is 3. The fins are unclampled and the fish seem to be doing well. It's still a far call from its native 4.5 or what? ph..but it's the same as what the pet store had him in, around 6.8.

that fish seem hardier than those darn white butterfly that I try to keep. They stop eating at the slightest stress. one died after 2 months not eating and one resumed eating for no apparent reason..

At least the heckel does not stop eating when stressed.





The LFS can sell you an inflatable dart board. They are not in the business for the well being of the fish if you have not realized that some time ago.

Your heckel can survive in with any fish and probably with almost any water for a given period of time. The LFS does do some tank maintenance. Now, because the fish survived 4 months in the LFS aquarium with domestic discus does in no way shape or form mean that it was thriving in those condition. I'd like to say that in all reality, that fish was suffering for 4 months in those conditions and you are getting the the short end of the stick. Now I wish you luck with this fish but remember all these posts because I hate saying "I told you so".


Take care and this where I step out of the thread,

Eddie

shawnhu
06-23-2009, 11:57 PM
Daniella,

So far you've got great advice on what to do, and how to do it. With every post that you make in response to the advice, it seems that you are ignoring and pushing away the people that are trying to help you. It's probably not the wisest thing to do, given that you are not yet as experienced enough to handle this on your own. Just a word of advice on not burning your bridges.

I've noticed that you are a very eager person, and want to do things right. How about I give you another piece of advice. Start off with a clean slate, and allow these generous people to teach you the ways that works. It seems that you have a lot of baggage with you, many of us do. But I think when we're asking for help, we let go of all that baggage and take in the advice of those that you trust can help you.

I wish you and your fish the best,
Shawn

block2
06-24-2009, 12:08 AM
Where do you buy indian almond leaves? At health stores?

Hi Daniella,

Check out our post in classifieds, Indian Almond Leaves for sale. Our prices are very reasonable and include postage via airmail from Thailand 10 - 14 working days.

Regards
Jeff & Wan

ShinShin
06-24-2009, 01:49 AM
There are better and easier ways to control pH than the various species of leaves advertised. I do not recommend them to any discus person.

Mat

Daniella
06-24-2009, 11:22 PM
thanks, I will look at it. I got peatmoss but that almond leave thing is very interesting as well. Seems to be very good for the fish.


Hi Daniella,

Check out our post in classifieds, Indian Almond Leaves for sale. Our prices are very reasonable and include postage via airmail from Thailand 10 - 14 working days.

Regards
Jeff & Wan

Daniella
06-24-2009, 11:23 PM
why? please explain why not for discus?

and what is that better way of controlling the Ph that you are refering to?


There are better and easier ways to control pH than the various species of leaves advertised. I do not recommend them to any discus person.

Mat

AlexR
06-25-2009, 04:33 AM
Daniella,

your fresh RO-water contains a lot of CO2. You can give a airation to the RO reservoir, then it will quickly raise up to 6,5-7,0.

The concept of lowering the PH depends on what you want. I use nearly pure RO water KH 1 with CO2 input. PH is permanently measured an adjusted by a magnetic ventile on the CO2 bottle.

Your heckel need stable water conditions, no ups and downs. The usage of peat or other lowering materials is not so easy. I prefer the CO2 dosage.

If you want to use peat or other acidic material, best way would be to put the peat not in the filter or fish tank, but using a separate water tank to put RO water in, add some minearls (SERA minerals, TropicMarin etc) start airation and peat, after 2-3 days, water conditions are quite stable and you can make water changes with this fresh water.

Just for understanding you right, your are owning 1 heckel or more of them?

Alex

Daniella
06-25-2009, 07:49 AM
Ok but CO2 here is too expensive for my budget.

I just got 1 heckel and that's all the store had so I could not buy 2 or more.

Now this little heckel is alone is a 20 gallon quarantine tank, in RO mixed with tap for a Gh or 3 and Kh of 0-1 and Ph of 6.8

You are right that my RO once aerated is Ph 7.

For the sake of it now, I will try to keep the Ph constant at 6.8 as this is better than fluctuations. Once I have a better way to control the Ph then it will be easier but for now it's not in my budget and finding CO2 here is a real nightmare. I tried to find some for my airbrush gun and could not.

I have seen CO2 unit online though but heck expensive.

What is making the amazone water so acidic? is it CO2 or just the tanin in the water or both?



Daniella,

your fresh RO-water contains a lot of CO2. You can give a airation to the RO reservoir, then it will quickly raise up to 6,5-7,0.

The concept of lowering the PH depends on what you want. I use nearly pure RO water KH 1 with CO2 input. PH is permanently measured an adjusted by a magnetic ventile on the CO2 bottle.

Your heckel need stable water conditions, no ups and downs. The usage of peat or other lowering materials is not so easy. I prefer the CO2 dosage.

If you want to use peat or other acidic material, best way would be to put the peat not in the filter or fish tank, but using a separate water tank to put RO water in, add some minearls (SERA minerals, TropicMarin etc) start airation and peat, after 2-3 days, water conditions are quite stable and you can make water changes with this fresh water.

Just for understanding you right, your are owning 1 heckel or more of them?

Alex