Failure to Thrive

[Mr Wild]

I am having trouble with the juvies I got from Rod failing to thrive. It started not long after I got them they really didn't seem to settle.
I will start at the start:
Put juvies in 6ft tank when they arrived - I had 10. All seemed to be lost so I put a plastic divider in to keep them together.
Red at base of fin appeared so moved them into QT - used tetracycline in discussion with Rod.
Red disappeared but no eating - week 1 had passed.

Bought live blackworms and rinsed them before giving them that, seemed interested but never really got excited. Spoke to Rod he said should be eating 2 FB cubes with gusto - it has never happened.

Couple of weeks passed agreed with Rod try Metro - did 8 day course.
then I found a faulty heater so moved remaining 6 to 3ft tank and new heater of course. 2 had jumped out of the tank and died / another 2 had just died in the tank, they were very small.

Here we are weeks later and there is still no real growth, I feed FBS, FBW Prime flake and I think I vacuum most of it up. So last week medicated for flukes as they were trying to scratch on the driftwood. They are in clean water now but the expected eating with gusto has still not happened. The brown is severely bullying the smallest and honestly I think that one might be past saving he is thin.
Temp 30C
TDS 80
PH 6.4
Amm 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
I have tried FBH and a frozen discus meal - they never touch it. Thinking of going back to live black worms or as I will be hatching BBS might try that.

Anyone with any ideas?

[Eddie]

Kath, first and foremost, I am sorry to hear about the losses and the unfortunate experience so far. Baby discus are very sensitive and easy targets for any and everything.

The advice I may give may not be the best but I will try to help. So the round of treatment, I am sure took a toll on their appetites. During most treatments fish fall off their diets. I don't know if I would went for a fluke treatment since you mentioned they were scratching on the wood. Scratching can come from an external irritant, be it water, parasite, bacteria.

I think the biggest issue was the initial introduction of the them into such a large tank. That is just my theory and opinion. In a small group and with such small fish, I feel a more secure environment would have helped to lessen any possible stress. Maybe something like a 30 for a month or so with good water changes.

The fact that fish are off food, the best thing to do now IMO, is keep them in a tank such as a 30-40 gallon. Keep them in fresh clean water, wiping down all surfaces of tank daily before water changes and bring them temp into the 90-92F range. Once you get them eating again, keep them eating with small frequent meals. I think once you get them feeling secure, they may turn around. Maybe has nothing to do with it but I find my juvies felt more secure in low light levels also, maybe not an issue but you can easily tell that they are less stressed.

HTH
Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Ok Eddie will try that I will up the temp now. The have been in their current tank for about a month now so think I will leave them there, they seem content and swim around so I will try an even higher temp, I am changing the water daily and have been doing so since I moved them there so I have that under control. There were weeks between the meds and still no real change. I will see how I go. Thought upping TDS might help too nut will wait for Chad to chime in on that one!
Thansk again!

[Eddie]

Ok Eddie will try that I will up the temp now. The have been in their current tank for about a month now so think I will leave them there, they seem content and swim around so I will try an even higher temp, I am changing the water daily and have been doing so since I moved them there so I have that under control. There were weeks between the meds and still no real change. I will see how I go. Thought upping TDS might help too nut will wait for Chad to chime in on that one!
Thansk again!

Could be but as you mentioned, thats Chad's dept.

Wishing you the best with them,

Eddie

[shawnhu]

Hey Kath,

Read a little about the heater issue, glad that's been resolved.

I agree with Eddie about the large tank, I tend to like to start small, then upgrade them to a larger tank once they feel at home. It's just much easier when it comes to feeding, and cleaning up. I'm currently raising 13 Discus that are under 2". You'll be surprised what I have them in.

When you feed them, do you stare at them, or do you allow them to do their own thing? I noticed that when my adults were on meds, they didn't like to be watched. They ate the food, just not when you were watching. Make sure the food is small enough so that they don't have to "work" for it. I'll go with FBW, and just keep going with that. It's small enough, and doesn't pollute even if left in there. I would be consistant with feedings, even if they don't take in food, keep trying with the same type, or stick wish just 2. Too much, and they may get stressed and confused.

And lastly, never give up! A thin Discus can recover. Have you placed charcoal to remove the remaining meds? I would think that removing any trace of the meds would help in their apetite. I've also noticed that if Discus see another Discus eat, they'll be more willing to "fight" over the food.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[shawnhu]

Ok Eddie will try that I will up the temp now. The have been in their current tank for about a month now so think I will leave them there, they seem content and swim around so I will try an even higher temp, I am changing the water daily and have been doing so since I moved them there so I have that under control. There were weeks between the meds and still no real change. I will see how I go. Thought upping TDS might help too nut will wait for Chad to chime in on that one!
Thansk again!

My TDS should be around 48ppm, GH and KH under 1 degree. I'm not sure if that is what is causing your Discus to go off on the food. Lights off, and some privatecy may help.

[Don Trinko]

Low kh can cause large swings in ph. Check ph regularly, several times a day untill your sure it isn't changing drasticly. It may not be a ph swing but it is a good idea to check.
Wont eat live black worms? To me this suggests that there is definatly a problem.
As previously suggested; some fish (especialy new fish) will not eat while you are watching. Try going away and check 15 or 20 minutes later.
Be carefull not to over medicate. Easy for me to say but many times we as hobbiest are just guessing what disease they may have.
All of the above IMO; Good luck; Don T.

[Mr Wild]

Hey Kath,

Read a little about the heater issue, glad that's been resolved.

I agree with Eddie about the large tank, I tend to like to start small, then upgrade them to a larger tank once they feel at home. It's just much easier when it comes to feeding, and cleaning up. I'm currently raising 13 Discus that are under 2". You'll be surprised what I have them in.

When you feed them, do you stare at them, or do you allow them to do their own thing? I noticed that when my adults were on meds, they didn't like to be watched. They ate the food, just not when you were watching. Make sure the food is small enough so that they don't have to "work" for it. I'll go with FBW, and just keep going with that. It's small enough, and doesn't pollute even if left in there. I would be consistant with feedings, even if they don't take in food, keep trying with the same type, or stick wish just 2. Too much, and they may get stressed and confused.

And lastly, never give up! A thin Discus can recover. Have you placed charcoal to remove the remaining meds? I would think that removing any trace of the meds would help in their apetite. I've also noticed that if Discus see another Discus eat, they'll be more willing to "fight" over the food.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Hi there
OK I will limit to 2 foods FBW and Prime flake as I have seen them go a little for that. I do just plop it in and walk away, their tank is by a window I wonder if that is too bright for them? Might try covering that side although it is winter here so no real bright sun.

I have removed all the meds by a 100% wc, I will do another in the morning and give the sponges a really good rinse again.


My TDS should be around 48ppm, GH and KH under 1 degree. I'm not sure if that is what is causing your Discus to go off on the food. Lights off, and some privatecy may help.

Usually only put the light (fluro) on whenit starts to get dark during the day they are only lit by natural light.


Low kh can cause large swings in ph. Check ph regularly, several times a day untill your sure it isn't changing drasticly. It may not be a ph swing but it is a good idea to check.
Wont eat live black worms? To me this suggests that there is definatly a problem.
As previously suggested; some fish (especialy new fish) will not eat while you are watching. Try going away and check 15 or 20 minutes later.
Be carefull not to over medicate. Easy for me to say but many times we as hobbiest are just guessing what disease they may have.
All of the above IMO; Good luck; Don T.

Thanks for chiming in Don T.

They ate the live black worms but I have never seen them eat with any gusto it is just swim and oh ok something to eat maybe I will maybe not kind of thing.

Yes the PH swing is a good one and not one that I had thought of will do I am home all day tomorrow so will check every couple of hours I have a meter and the API test strips.

Thanks for helping everyone - this part is all new to me!:confused:

[calihawker]

So sorry to hear about your loss.:( There's good advice being given here and I don't think I can add anything except to ask if you have low tds directly from your tap or are you using RO? As you've been reading in the contest threads both myself and Kenny are having success with extremely low tds.

[Chad Hughes]

Kath,

Your water looks perfect. I would definately watch the Ph as mentioned above. Although I measure everything in TDS, I always double check the KH. Since I use CO2, it's important (for me) to double check this parameter since I inject CO2. If you have a KH test, be sure you're above 3 dKH to avoid any swings.

Eddie is giving you some excellent advice in his reply post. I'd follow that to a "T" as well. Avoid at all costs medicating due to a single observation. You may see fish doing weird things from time to time. Perfectly normal actually. Obviously knowing when to take action is a complete judgement call. When I see things like scratching start, I just pay closer attention to what's going on in the tank. I look at every fish for a day to three and just watch to see how things progress. Typically it's nothing. A good water change makes all the difference almost always.

I hope this helps you a bit. Keep us informed as you go!

Best wishes!

[nesser]

I dont know if this helps ,I definately dont advocate using random meds but I had some problems with three of 10 discus eating little or none in a clean tank with good water.After several months of monitering I used metro because there was some white poo,I didnt see much differance in there eating.Five months later I used prazi and they all passed tape worms.OMG Tape Worms!!

[hope]

Just to chime in - I am not an expert but have almost raised 7. I noticed mine were never huge eaters the way most describe on here, and my breeder (mmorris) said that was ok as long as they were eating. They don't "go crazy" for much, and seem to go through spirts of eating a lot and eating just "ok". So as long as yours are eating something - that's great. Also I noticed when I moved mine into my bedroom, I inadvertently stopped spending as much time with them and they do not eat out of my hand anymore, they seem less friendly. My point is if yours are a bit scared, I have the same experience as said above - I feed them, then leave them to eat (for now until I move them again).

One last thing - my personal very limited experience opinion - I'd take everything out of the tank but the discus and essentials - no wood, bare bottom, etc.

I also started mine in a small tank.

That's advice I got from many on this forum in the past that has helped me have some success with raising mine. Good luck!

[mmorris]

my breeder (mmorris) said that was ok as long as they were eating.

I said that? :confused: I remember you were a bit concerned about one...They always looked great in the photos, growing on schedule. :)

[Scribbles]

Sorry to hear about your problems Kath. I agree with the others that raising the temp. might help. What was Rod feeding them? Have you tried that? Other than that just lots of good clean water. Best of luck.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

So sorry to hear about your loss.:( There's good advice being given here and I don't think I can add anything except to ask if you have low tds directly from your tap or are you using RO? As you've been reading in the contest threads both myself and Kenny are having success with extremely low tds.

Hi Steve
Yes good advice and I am taking it! My TDS from water source is 12ppm we have rain water only here. That is why I use Kent RO Right. Yes I did read the threads na dI think on one I wrote to be careful as I lost perfectly healthy discus when I bought them home from lfs they would die within the day. Then when I increased TDS no more deaths.


Kath,

Your water looks perfect. I would definately watch the Ph as mentioned above. Although I measure everything in TDS, I always double check the KH. Since I use CO2, it's important (for me) to double check this parameter since I inject CO2. If you have a KH test, be sure you're above 3 dKH to avoid any swings.

Eddie is giving you some excellent advice in his reply post. I'd follow that to a "T" as well. Avoid at all costs medicating due to a single observation. You may see fish doing weird things from time to time. Perfectly normal actually. Obviously knowing when to take action is a complete judgement call. When I see things like scratching start, I just pay closer attention to what's going on in the tank. I look at every fish for a day to three and just watch to see how things progress. Typically it's nothing. A good water change makes all the difference almost always.

I hope this helps you a bit. Keep us informed as you go!

Best wishes!

Hi Chad
No more medicating is happening - stopped on Sunday night - today is Tuesday. Did a 50% wc this am and took PH reading 6.4. Also 6.4 in aging barrell. Will check KH and update shortly.
Thanks for checking in~!


Just to chime in - I am not an expert but have almost raised 7. I noticed mine were never huge eaters the way most describe on here, and my breeder (mmorris) said that was ok as long as they were eating. They don't "go crazy" for much, and seem to go through spirts of eating a lot and eating just "ok". So as long as yours are eating something - that's great. Also I noticed when I moved mine into my bedroom, I inadvertently stopped spending as much time with them and they do not eat out of my hand anymore, they seem less friendly. My point is if yours are a bit scared, I have the same experience as said above - I feed them, then leave them to eat (for now until I move them again).

One last thing - my personal very limited experience opinion - I'd take everything out of the tank but the discus and essentials - no wood, bare bottom, etc.

I also started mine in a small tank.

That's advice I got from many on this forum in the past that has helped me have some success with raising mine. Good luck!

Thanks Hope for your input it all helps. I like giving them sand - just a thin layer on the bottom and the have a piece of driftwood in there too. To me it is more natural and I really don't think they can hurt. Can anyone help here?



Sorry to hear about your problems Kath. I agree with the others that raising the temp. might help. What was Rod feeding them? Have you tried that? Other than that just lots of good clean water. Best of luck.

Chris

Hi Chris
I have raised the temp to 32C. Rod was feeding FBW and BH mix I think he said weeks ago when I enquired. I am def not getting the growth rates the guys are getting from the contest discus which really prompted me to post when I saw them. One little guy I am sure has not grown at all and is very thin, I will see if I can get a pic of them, that might help.

Also the meds we get here for Flukes does tape worm which is where I was going with the little fellow.

[Eddie]

Kath,

The Challengers are in competition, they are feeding heavily and blasting out waterchanges. Those fish were already 3-3.5" in length so that were past the stage that your little buggers are in. One thing you notice is that all the set-ups aside from Chads are BB tanks. This is wise IMO. Chad is well knowledged in aquaria and making some amazing progress here.

I did not know you had any ornamentation in the tank, to include sand. I too think it would be a wise decision to remove it all with fish this small. The sand will collect any and all left over food and will make a breeding ground for tons of unwanted bacterias/parasite/whatever. I think it would be wise to put the remaining fish in a smaller barebottom tank and go from there.



HTH
Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Ok I have an 80 litre tank is that too small?

[Chad Hughes]

Kath,

Eddie makes some good points here. I guess the best approach to this (in my opinion) is rule out everything you can. If you are not seeing low KH resulting in Ph swings, it might be best to get a better handle on the cleanliness of the tanks as Eddie suggests.

I'm sure you mentioned it already, but how often are you changing water? I have a strong hunch that, assuming that you change water every two to three days, you still have low KH and might be having swings. I have a similar situation with my RO water. Even though I add 500 + ppm tap water to it, the GH comes in great around 3 to 4 dGH. The KH is always less or equal to 1. That won't hold for more than 24 hours before the Ph will begin to slip. Trust me, I've been there. LOL!

Looking forward to your results!

[TankWatcher]

Hi Kath

I have been so preoccupied with my own fish health issues, I missed this thread. Sorry you are going through these troubles.

[Eddie]

Ok I have an 80 litre tank is that too small?

Thats perfect for 6 of their size, at least for a month or so, so we can get them back in piranha mode!

Actually, I goofed on the calculations, thats a 20 so its a bit tight Kath. Can you use a 40 gallon tank?

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Kath,

Eddie makes some good points here. I guess the best approach to this (in my opinion) is rule out everything you can. If you are not seeing low KH resulting in Ph swings, it might be best to get a better handle on the cleanliness of the tanks as Eddie suggests.

I'm sure you mentioned it already, but how often are you changing water? I have a strong hunch that, assuming that you change water every two to three days, you still have low KH and might be having swings. I have a similar situation with my RO water. Even though I add 500 + ppm tap water to it, the GH comes in great around 3 to 4 dGH. The KH is always less or equal to 1. That won't hold for more than 24 hours before the Ph will begin to slip. Trust me, I've been there. LOL!

Looking forward to your results!

Hi Chad if not daily every second day 50% - 80% depending on whether I had changed it the day before.

KH - can't test it forgot I lent it to a friend of mune along with the GH test kit. Will have to get it back off him.

I could add coral to the storage tank would that help?
I do have some in my display tank.


Thats perfect for 6 of their size, at least for a month or so, so we can get them back in piranha mode!

Actually, I goofed on the calculations, thats a 20 so its a bit tight Kath. Can you use a 40 gallon tank?

Eddie

Well bugger Eddie I have moved them! Looks like they will cramped for awhile then, while I move things around again.

Ph in another tank 6 so that is a drop of 0.4 overnight will that have an effect?

Thansk Kath

[Eddie]

Hi Chad if not daily every second day 50% - 80% depending on whether I had changed it the day before.

KH - can't test it forgot I lent it to a friend of mune along with the GH test kit. Will have to get it back off him.

I could add coral to the storage tank would that help?
I do have some in my display tank.



Well bugger Eddie I have moved them! Looks like they will cramped for awhile then, while I move things around again.

Ph in another tank 6 so that is a drop of 0.4 overnight will that have an effect?

Thansk Kath

Could be a problem, try to keep the PH stable as possible. Even water for water changes almost matching to .2 up or down IMO.

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

Kath,

I don't think you'll need to test. I can see that your KH is low by the slip in Ph overnight. That is quite a bit. Any rapid decline in Ph isn't good, especially on young fish and fry. You can add either crushed coral or baking soda to the water. They both do the same thing.

Even though you are changing water daily, your Ph slips within 12 hours. Typically frequent water changes in water that is this low in KH helps prevent Ph slips. Yours is slipping faster than you can prevent. Remember ever point in Ph drop is multiplied by 10. Every night your fish experience a drop in Ph of 40 times! That's a whole bunch!

Thanks for the rapid feedback and good eye on the discus behavior. You probably saved these guys! Now get it fixed! LOL!

Best wishes!

[Mr Wild]

Could be a problem, try to keep the PH stable as possible. Even water for water changes almost matching to .2 up or down IMO.

Eddie

Eddie just occurred to me that you might have thought I was saying bugger to you, I wasn;t its an aussie thing we use bugger a lot. At one stage a whole ad campaign was set around the word for toyota I think? Anyway was not meant AT you. LOL

Ok so coral it is. I will take some pics tonight when they have settled and the light is better, Thanks for you help.


Kath,

I don't think you'll need to test. I can see that your KH is low by the slip in Ph overnight. That is quite a bit. Any rapid decline in Ph isn't good, especially on young fish and fry. You can add either crushed coral or baking soda to the water. They both do the same thing.

Even though you are changing water daily, your Ph slips within 12 hours. Typically frequent water changes in water that is this low in KH helps prevent Ph slips. Yours is slipping faster than you can prevent. Remember ever point in Ph drop is multiplied by 10. Every night your fish experience a drop in Ph of 40 times! That's a whole bunch!

Thanks for the rapid feedback and good eye on the discus behavior. You probably saved these guys! Now get it fixed! LOL!

Best wishes!

Oke doke Chad so I have put coral in the ageing barrell I will put a couple of pieces in the tank as well then and see if we can stabilise the PH and of course will continue to take PH readings.
Will post some oics tonight so you can get a good look at the fish and see what you as well. OK Thanks!:D

[Chad Hughes]

Eddie just occurred to me that you might have thought I was saying bugger to you, I wasn;t its an aussie thing we use bugger a lot. At one stage a whole ad campaign was set around the word for toyota I think? Anyway was not meant AT you. LOL

Ok so coral it is. I will take some pics tonight when they have settled and the light is better, Thanks for you help.



Oke doke Chad so I have put coral in the ageing barrell I will put a couple of pieces in the tank as well then and see if we can stabilise the PH and of course will continue to take PH readings.
Will post some oics tonight so you can get a good look at the fish and see what you as well. OK Thanks!:D

Kath,

Sounds like a plan! For piece of mind, you'll likely want to test your dKH at some point just so you knwo that the amount of CC that you have added will be sufficient.

Great work!

Best wishes.

[Mr Wild]

Ok can do , will get my kit back and give it a try.
Thanks for you halp again will chat again soon.

[Eddie]

No worries Kath, LOL I didn't even catch that.

Don't worry, with a combined effort, we will all get through this!

All the best,

Eddie

[rickztahone]

hey Kath, just came across this post, sorry for all the difficulties you've been having. I also went through a period that i though, "my fish are just not growing!". best advice i got was from Al and he told me to enjoy my fish more and just show some good husbandry. i know it might not apply here since it looks like you have a water parameter problem but what i'm trying to say is when you do stabilize that problem just try to enjoy your fish and they will thrive for your, mine did and i wasn't really trying. all through this thread you have been getting some really great advice and i'm really proud of all the members that chime in and help a member such as yourself pinpoint a problem that might have been otherwise overlooked. good luck, and i hope the crush coral helps you out. is this your only tank? i could have swore you had adult discus, if so, how have you been raising them?

[Mr Wild]

hey Kath, just came across this post, sorry for all the difficulties you've been having. I also went through a period that i though, "my fish are just not growing!". best advice i got was from Al and he told me to enjoy my fish more and just show some good husbandry. i know it might not apply here since it looks like you have a water parameter problem but what i'm trying to say is when you do stabilize that problem just try to enjoy your fish and they will thrive for your, mine did and i wasn't really trying. all through this thread you have been getting some really great advice and i'm really proud of all the members that chime in and help a member such as yourself pinpoint a problem that might have been otherwise overlooked. good luck, and i hope the crush coral helps you out. is this your only tank? i could have swore you had adult discus, if so, how have you been raising them?

Hey Rick

Yes I do, I have the adults in the 4x2x2 tank. Using the same water but I do have coral in that tank and honestly I just didn't think of it. Also I bought 2 off Darren that were already full size and the other 3 I have in there I bought at about 3-3.5in so this is the first time I have had babies. Maybe I am the frightened new mum? Of the dizzy granny or something!

[rickztahone]

Hey Rick

Yes I do, I have the adults in the 4x2x2 tank. Using the same water but I do have coral in that tank and honestly I just didn't think of it. Also I bought 2 off Darren that were already full size and the other 3 I have in there I bought at about 3-3.5in so this is the first time I have had babies. Maybe I am the frightened new mum? Of the dizzy granny or something!

you should definitely try to mimic the conditions you have in your successful tanks since you know they work. i know younger discus like different water than adults but if it takes that adjustment then by all means do it so that you do not keep having this problem. hopefully everything turns out for the best

[Mr Wild]

Yep added the coral and checked the TDS and PH an all other params and all are great. So now they are in my lounge room I can watch them more, they are very active but still do not appear to eavh much. In a day they would not even eat a full cube of FBW, I just seem to be vacuuming it up. But I give fresh stuff every couple of hours and vacuum the old stuff up and the cycle starts again. Can;t help but think they should be eating more than this.

[Chad Hughes]

Kath,

Give them a couple of days OFF food. Let them build up a good appetite in your newly adjusted water. Make sure your temp is close to 90 also. When you DO feed, feed them with your staple food. Mine is beefheart mix. Whatever you feed the most normally, feed them that. You want them to really eat up the food that you will feed the most.

Let us know how it goes!

Best wishes!

[Mr Wild]

Ok Chad I can do that, yes I did raise the temp it is as high as the heater will allow and reads 30C. As I said they appear active and happy but just no real food gusto. My others are like bears after winter you can't fill them but yes they are all older.
So 2 days no more food then give food and use what I intend to use the most, yes can do. Thanks again!

[shawnhu]

Kath,

When I moved my 2" Discus to their new home, they didn't seem to want to eat, they just huddled. They were being picky too with the food I was giving, even the Hikari FBW. Needless to say, I was pretty upset, as they loved the worms. I just left them be for a day without feeding and bothering them, and the next day when I walked up to them, they seemed interested, so I fed them a little of my staple food, TetraBits. They didn't like it much, but that's what they got, and they better like it!

After 2-3 days, they're eating it like they were told! Now they get treats too, BH, FBW, and TetraBits as their main.

Keep your chin up, they'll turn around.

Shawn

[Mr Wild]

Shawn

That makes me feel a whole lot better, as my other are just pigs I am thinking these are sick or something... so now the fasting and in 2 days I will feed them. Are they too small for the FBH and Frozen discus meals you can buy?

[Eddie]

Shawn

That makes me feel a whole lot better, as my other are just pigs I am thinking these are sick or something... so now the fasting and in 2 days I will feed them. Are they too small for the FBH and Frozen discus meals you can buy?

Not at all, just cut small pieces and then vacuum up whatever they don't eat. Keeping the tank temp up around 90F if you can Kath.

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Not at all, just cut small pieces and then vacuum up whatever they don't eat. Keeping the tank temp up around 90F if you can Kath.

Eddie

Thanks for that Eddie I will try it. Thought I would try and take some pics to show everyone that is trying to help what I mean about failure to thrive.

The first is of the smallest fellow that I do not think has grown at all in fact he is poorer than when I got him, he does get picked on.

[Mr Wild]

Then you can see, although the pic is blurry that 2 have grown and another is smaller as well although not as bad as midget above. Then another that is inbetween. So out of 6 left I have say 3 that are showing some growth the 2 albinos and the brown. The 2 reds would be next and then theres midget the golden. I do not think he will live much longer if I cannot turn this around for him.

[MostlyDiscus]

Good to see they are comming around Kath,,, they look great in my opinion.

Ed

[Mr Wild]

REALLY? I thought they are way to small! Are you sure?

[Eddie]

Hey Kath, they look fine. Daily TLC like you are giving them and they'll be growing like you want them to.

Take care,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Well I'll be jiggered I thought they must have had something wrong with them to still be so small! But if you guys say all is ok I will just do daily 50%wc and feed and see how we go then! Golly!! I was expecting hearty eating not just picking, oh well goodo then.

Thanks for all your help everyone!

[Eddie]

Well I'll be jiggered I thought they must have had something wrong with them to still be so small! But if you guys say all is ok I will just do daily 50%wc and feed and see how we go then! Golly!! I was expecting hearty eating not just picking, oh well goodo then.

Thanks for all your help everyone!

As far as my babies from Wayne, they don't necessarily go crazy yet, they forage around and eat. They are growing well though. The goldens or 3R2 are very small and still very small but they grow slow so I am not worried. Just keep doing what you are doing! ;)

I'd be worried if they start going dark, hanging in the corners or showing any symptoms of anything but they sound fine.

All the best,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Eddie will do!

[calihawker]

Looks like you got a handle on it Kath.:) Good luck with those guys!

[Scribbles]

Sometimes juvies will seem not to grow and then suddenly take off. MY 2 SS were like that. I didn't see any growth for awhile and I thought that they would stunt and then one day I was looking at them and they had gained an inch. Now they are catching up to everybody else. Your babies look pretty good. In a couple of months you will forget that they were ever little. Best of luck with them.

Chris

[mmorris]

Red at base of fin appeared so moved them into QT - used tetracycline in discussion with Rod.
Red disappeared but no eating - week 1 had passed.

Spoke to Rod he said should be eating 2 FB cubes with gusto - it has never happened.

Couple of weeks passed agreed with Rod try Metro - did 8 day course.
another 2 had just died in the tank, they were very small.

Here we are weeks later and there is still no real growth, I feed FBS, FBW Prime flake and I think I vacuum most of it up. So last week medicated for flukes as they were trying to scratch on the driftwood. They are in clean water now but the expected eating with gusto has still not happened. The brown is severely bullying the smallest and honestly I think that one might be past saving he is thin.
I have tried FBH and a frozen discus meal - they never touch it. Anyone with any ideas?

I hate to put a damper on things but they don't sound alright to me. You've had them for weeks, two died, they aren't eating well at all and they aren't growing. I wonder if it might not be a bacterial issue and I know you've used tetracycline, but as I understand it, it doesn't treat all gram negative bacteria. I'm not the one to offer medical advice by any means though. I recommend you post in the disease section and good luck. Hopefully you can get this sorted soon.

[Mr Wild]

Looks like you got a handle on it Kath.:) Good luck with those guys!

Thanks Steve will keep you posted!


Sometimes juvies will seem not to grow and then suddenly take off. MY 2 SS were like that. I didn't see any growth for awhile and I thought that they would stunt and then one day I was looking at them and they had gained an inch. Now they are catching up to everybody else. Your babies look pretty good. In a couple of months you will forget that they were ever little. Best of luck with them.

Chris


I hope your right Chris, now they are in the loung room I can observe them better. Gave light feeding of ON Prime Reef this am, the 3 larger ones appear to chase it down and eat but the other 3 are not so eager. I have raised the temp to 30C and do 50% wc daily I wiull see how they go for a week or so then go from there. I do think the little midget still has something wrong as he is smaller , thinner than he ever was.



I hate to put a damper on things but they don't sound alright to me. You've had them for weeks, two died, they aren't eating well at all and they aren't growing. I wonder if it might not be a bacterial issue and I know you've used tetracycline, but as I understand it, it doesn't treat all gram negative bacteria. I'm not the one to offer medical advice by any means though. I recommend you post in the disease section and good luck. Hopefully you can get this sorted soon.

Hi there, yeah well I must say as you can probably see from a couple of my posts I was stunned when people said they looked ok so I am happy to try this for a week or so and see if they improve. Don't think it is bacterial cannot see any reddness anywhere but I thought I should have done a general worming as I have not done, so I will wait and see. I have levamysol here but want to wait a week as least before I try anything else.
What dosage would I use in an 80litre tank?

[mmorris]

Thanks Steve will keep you posted!




I hope your right Chris, now they are in the loung room I can observe them better. Gave light feeding of ON Prime Reef this am, the 3 larger ones appear to chase it down and eat but the other 3 are not so eager. I have raised the temp to 30C and do 50% wc daily I wiull see how they go for a week or so then go from there. I do think the little midget still has something wrong as he is smaller , thinner than he ever was.


Don't think it is bacterial cannot see any reddness anywhere but I thought I should have done a general worming as I have not done, so I will wait and see. I have levamysol here but want to wait a week as least before I try anything else.
What dosage would I use in an 80litre tank?

There doesn't have to be redness for there to be a bacterial infection. An infection of the stomach/intestinal lining wouldn't cause redness. I'm not recommending antibiotic, though. I leave that for the experts. Dosage for levamisole is 2ppm (mg/liter), repeat in 2-3 weeks (per pcsb23). So an 80 liter tank would take 160 mg, or 0.16 g. Best of luck, Kath. Sick discus are a drag.

[TankWatcher]

dosage will depend on the strength of active constituent . I use Sykes Big L Poultry & Pig wormer, with active constituent 14g/L levamisole. If you have the same, the dose is 1ml per 7litres.

[TankWatcher]

Kath, levamisole takes care of round worms & thread worms. For tape worms, use praziquantal (from LFS).

Fish can have all three types of worms at the same time (though I'm not saying your's have any worms - just making general comment about worming).

Also, I don't know if yours have a bacterial issue or not, but what I kept hearing in my diggings about fish & antibiotics is that tetracycline isn't as useful as it once was, as there is a lot of bacteria that are resistant to it (though it seemed to work for you in your red fin issue & it worked for Rox too so that contradicts what I am saying) plus that it is really tough on your filter's beneficial bacteria. I haven't tested that out myself - it's only what I was told by others & was why I looked for an alternative tetracycline. I actually bought a bottle & was on the verge of using it, but held off.

[Mr Wild]

Actually I am wrong the bottle I was thinking of is Piperazine Solution. I use it to worm my poultry. Can this be used does anyone know?

[Eddie]

Actually I am wrong the bottle I was thinking of is Piperazine Solution. I use it to worm my poultry. Can this be used does anyone know?

Yes, you can use Piperazine in food or water.

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Do you know the dose rate Eddie?

[Eddie]

Do you know the dose rate Eddie?

I'll check and be back with a link. ;)

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Eddie

[Eddie]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=40616&highlight=piperazine

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=48637&highlight=piperazine

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=51907&highlight=piperazine

Cheers. ;)

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Yes I read those before too Eddie, The piperazine I have is liquid and there does not appear to be any recommendation for dosage for that. I will try and get something else for the couple that are not responding to the heat. The 2 smallest I did prazi before so I thought a general worming might help too. Thinking to take the 4 good ones out and leave the little fellows in the small tank while I treat. What do you think?

[Eddie]

This was from the third link, Connie's post.


Anway, I have Piperazine, 50 grams, and these are the directions:

Add 1/4 tsp. per 20 gal. on days 1, 3 and 5. Change water before dosing. Repeat second week.

It can also be added to food: add 1/4 tsp. to 3 oz. food. Feed for 6 days.


Eddie

[mmorris]

It is measured in grams so I am guessing it, too, is in powder form. Liquid, I would think, would be measured in ml.

[Mr Wild]

It is measured in grams so I am guessing it, too, is in powder form. Liquid, I would think, would be measured in ml.

Thanks Martha thats what I thought! Glad I am not going mad LOL.

This morning I saw white poop from the smallest discus so now I will medicate but I am wondering what order I should take this. I thought a general worming would not hurt which is why I was asking about piperazine. But should I go straight to metro or should I try tetracycline, as they all went through a metro treatment for 8 days back about 4 weeks ago.

What to do?

[Eddie]

Thanks Martha thats what I thought! Glad I am not going mad LOL.

This morning I saw white poop from the smallest discus so now I will medicate but I am wondering what order I should take this. I thought a general worming would not hurt which is why I was asking about piperazine. But should I go straight to metro or should I try tetracycline, as they all went through a metro treatment for 8 days back about 4 weeks ago.

What to do?

Hey Kath, if the fish hasn't been eating, it probably will only able to poo mucus. Did you use the piperazine and thats when it had the white poo?


Eddie

[Mr Wild]

No did not use as the dosage was for powder not l;iquid.

I have started the tank on tetracycline as I have not dosed for that other than right at the start and I only did it for a couple of days then. Just in case it is an internal infection in the gut.

[Ardan]

Trying to understand all in this thread.
How long have you had them?

You had ph swings.
temp problems with a heater
used prazi
used metro
used tetracycline (in food and now water?)


I have found fish lose appetite for a time after some of these meds.


Most important is especially for juvies is the water stability with ph and temp.
Always give a rest between meds.
wc's are very important, but usually with juvies 50%.

not exactly sure what is going on but they have been through a lot and I would worry about water parameter stability, cleanliness and maybe only bloodworms and rest for a bit after this course of tetracycline.
Increase temps of 90F and a bit of salt may help them (2 tablespoons per 10 gal) it helps with breathing and stress.
the smallest may need to be separated to their own tank to avoid bullying.
after a period of rest from meds (2 wks), then maybe levamisole in case they have nematodes. this med may also decrease apetite though.
hth
Ardan

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Arden. I am mostly concerned about 2 of the juvies that have really gone backwards and look much worse, weight wise. This morning the smallest of the 2 now just a skeleton was pooping white mucus, they have not been medicated for 2weeks now just had 50% wc each day, fresh water. PH has been balanced but the 2 I am speaking of just sit pointed to a corner, never eat and rarely swim about. I think initially there was stress due to size of tank and heater and everything else but now as I see the others have grown and are at least eating a little and these 2 are not doing any better. A bacterial infection was suggested and I have been previously advised that the aqua-cycline is one of the gentler medications which is why I chose that route this time.

[TankWatcher]

Keep a watch on your parameters. I was told that tetracycline would pretty much nuke your good bacteria. Maybe have a spare sponge filter bubbling away in a known healthy tank, so that at the end of the treatment, you can pop it in & help the main tank's filter get back on track. If you are treating them in a separate QT, this mightn't be so important.

[Ardan]

I would put those two into their own tank to treat.
I had those same type of problems with one small discus yrs ago and he did better by himself in a ten gallon tank. Everytime he went back to the main tank then white feces (stress?)
I used metro sometimes and kanamyacin at another time.

But being by itself with just clean water seemed to be the best (no meds)


hth
Ardan

[Mr Wild]

Keep a watch on your parameters. I was told that tetracycline would pretty much nuke your good bacteria. Maybe have a spare sponge filter bubbling away in a known healthy tank, so that at the end of the treatment, you can pop it in & help the main tank's filter get back on track. If you are treating them in a separate QT, this mightn't be so important.


Separate QT tank. But I always have a spare sponge bubbling away in my main tanks. Thanks Robyn


I would put those two into their own tank to treat.
I had those same type of problems with one small discus yrs ago and he did better by himself in a ten gallon tank. Everytime he went back to the main tank then white feces (stress?)
I used metro sometimes and kanamyacin at another time.

But being by itself with just clean water seemed to be the best (no meds)


hth
Ardan

Thanks Arden

I had thought to separate them last night I will put the 4 that are doing really well in the 3ft tank leave the 2 that are struggling in the 2.5foot and I still have a 4foot if I am lucky enough to get accepted as a contestant in the Aussie challenge LOL. If not I will put my pair in there and let them do the shimmy shimmy shake!

Also I now have to go away for a couple of days so I removed all meds did 150% water change and cleaned filters wso they will be in clean water for 2 days while I am not here. I will see where that brings us. Only going to be fed a sprinkle each day while I am away. Cheers Kath

[TankWatcher]

Hi Kath

Antibiotics should always be continued for a full course. Under dosing or cutting a treatment short helps the bugs build resistance to the antibiotic.

Enjoy your time away. Hope it's to somewhere fun

[Mr Wild]

Hi Kath

Antibiotics should always be continued for a full course. Under dosing or cutting a treatment short helps the bugs build resistance to the antibiotic.

Enjoy your time away. Hope it's to somewhere fun

Can't be helped Darren gone to hospital - hopefully 1 day hasn't ruined the course.

[TankWatcher]

Oh no, I hope it's not too serious Kath. All the best for Darren (& you)

[Mr Wild]

Oh no, I hope it's not too serious Kath. All the best for Darren (& you)

Ok I am back home after 3 days and all is well wiyth my discus and Darren, so off to start again.

I removed the 4 heathy ones to their own tank and will just treat the 2 suspect ones on their own.

But all looking good! Had more eggs tonight in the big tank but they will not last in there will have to get them their own tank. Will be setting up the other 4 footer this weekend so will see hwta moves I can make and go from there!

Thanks everone for all your help, things seem under control now.

[Scribbles]

Glad to hear that everyone is doing better, discus and human.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

Thanks for that, yep all looking good ATM! LOL

[Ardan]

I am glad things are looking better:):)

Keep us posted


Ardan

[Mr Wild]

I am glad things are looking better:):)

Keep us posted


Ardan

Thanks Arden I will, I am thining these 2 little fellows might already be stunted but I am planning on finishing their treatment and leaving them in QT while I try to feed them up before I reunite them with the others. They might get a better go at the food then!~

[TankWatcher]

Good luck with them Kath. I'm glad things are going better and that all is well with the humans too.

[Mr Wild]

All are looking better now, The little fellow is still little but looks like he is getting some meat on his bones! I can see some growth and some differences in growth as well amongst the others. Love some of the colours starting to come through too.

[Eddie]

Thats GREAT news Kath! Cute little buggers too.

All the best
Eddie

[Disgirl]

They are really cute Kath!
Barb:)

[Mr Wild]

Thats GREAT news Kath! Cute little buggers too.

All the best
Eddie

Thanks Eddie

I really like them but I think I prefer getting 3" and up. They seem to eat better right from the start.
I have worried over these babies !



They are really cute Kath!
Barb:)

Thanks Barb I have been to worried to see they are cute! But yes they are!

[Scribbles]

So glad to hear that they're doing better Kath! Lots of good food and clean water and they will be right as rain. They are such little cuties.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

So tiny when I got them to think they have actually grown a little! LOL

[Eddie]

So tiny when I got them to think they have actually grown a little! LOL

One thing to mention Kath is that some types such as goldens and albinos grow much slower than others. My 3R2 from Wayne that I have had for 2 months almost look the same size as when I got them. LOL Little by little they get there. ;)

All the best with them,

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

Yes, I have heard that albinos grow slower too & have found this to be the case with mine as well. My adult albino never got as big as some other adults, but the eye always remained small & all seems to be in proportion.

[Mr Wild]

One thing to mention Kath is that some types such as goldens and albinos grow much slower than others. My 3R2 from Wayne that I have had for 2 months almost look the same size as when I got them. LOL Little by little they get there. ;)

All the best with them,

Eddie
Ok thanks for that Eddie, perhaps that is what I am seeing and I am thinking they are not well. Anyway I am feeding them little meals and lots of them, seem s to work better.


Yes, I have heard that albinos grow slower too & have found this to be the case with mine as well. My adult albino never got as big as some other adults, but the eye always remained small & all seems to be in proportion.

Yes Rob I have albinos too so perhaps that is it.
Thanks guys!

[Eddie]

Sounds excellent Kath, seem to be doing well then!

All the best,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Eddie will keep ya posted!