Suturing a Fish

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
For years I always wanted some classic San merahs to breed...not the Rose reddish ones that are common, but those deep deep red ones. I finally raised out a group of youngsters ...got a pair and they have been real beauties for me... great parents, beautiful color, etc..Finally had what i wanted for San Merahs.... and then an accident happened....The pair was on fry...the fry had just gone free swimming and the glass lid on the tank fell in.:(:( my fault... It was a heavy plate glass and I was so busy trying not to suck up the fry that I knocked it in. It hit the female a glancing blow off the side...and then clipped her a bad gash behind the tail and completely thru the Anal fin, and into the muscle a good 1/2 inch...

It was devastating...Theres no way that it would close up and the fin repair itself... I'm pretty sure that she'd survive if I kept the tank clean, and it would not affect the breeding at all...though I did have to sacrifice the free swimmers. This made the male mad and he started to harrass her..so I partitioned the tank.

Very very depressing:( This fish is easily my favorite out of many here.

-al

[Disgirl]

Well that is just such a sad story. So sorry it happened! But she looks better than I thought she would after hearing the story first. I bet she will recover just fine and be a good mother again. Even if she has some scars she will still make beautiful babies :). Those are some gorgeous fish Al! We all have our accidents for sure.
Barb :)

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

ooo, Sorry to hear about that Al, she is a beautiful fish indeed! Im sure she will heal up OK for you...maybe a scar, but either way...thats a beautiful fish, and if you can get them to spawn again, it should all be ok.

sometimes sh*t happens, I think that with your care, that fish will make a nice recovery, and you will be back to where you were soon enough. dont be too bummed!

[brewmaster15]

Now I know some of you may not understand why I did what I did next, some may find it an unnecessary risk and something that I just should not have tried. I am a biologist by education and though I have never sutured a fish before...I have done so to myself and small animals...so I was not exactly flying blind here..

I decide that the cut was fairly clean and that it was worth the risk to try to close it up with sutures. I netted the fish and I cleaned the area with iodine...and since I didn't have a good size suture I bent a sterile one I had.. performed one suture and returned the fish to the tank...let it rest a few minutes and repeated the step for two sutures. One to hold the muscle tissue together, the other to hold the rays together.

I know theres a risk of infection, and doing this on my favorite fish is probably a real dumb thing to do.. but I really hope I can undue the damage I did this fish accidentally.

I have absolutely no idea as to whether this will work as I have never done this before. I have seen discus far less healthy survive far worse...and this discus is in perfect health..so I am hopeful. I'm sharing this with you all so that we can all learn a bit more here..

Heres the patient post-operative.

-al

[William Palumbo]

Hi Al...sorry to hear that. At least she should recover. Bummer about the fry. That is a very nice looking pair for sure, as you probally know by now, those are some of my favorite type of strains. Here I thought I was the only one to knock the lids in. I do it ALL the time. Is why the majority of mine are cracked or broke. Some of my tank tops have several broken peices like a puzzle covering them. Reaching in the tank is like a booby trap! I put a small crack in the side of my 125 from the lid falling, it fell in a sweeping side by side motion, right into the side of the tank. I hate lids myself, but we need them to keep the fish and heat in...One good thing Al, is that she'll be breeding again soon, scarred but breeding...Bill

[poconogal]

Oh Al, I'm so sorry to hear this. When I first started reading your post it made me gasp. Thank goodness she is still alive and I think she will be fine. Maybe a scar or two, but that's better than the alternative. Good stitchwork there, I hope to see pics posted in a few weeks with her all healed.

[Roxanne]

That is devastating Al:(:(. I have knocked lids in myself a couple of times now and I always think, damnit that could cut them in half if they were under it...

So, I got lids made up from perspex to fit, I didn't quite get the thick enough one, and it bows a little bit with the water heat, but it's much safer than glass..

...always the favourite as Kacey would say....

Roxanne

[Harriett]

San Merahs are one of my faves and your pair is gorgeous, Brew---I don't think it was too far out there, but of course I'm a nurse and that just seemes to me to be the logical thing for you to do!
I'll keep my fingers crossed that it comes out ok--she's awful fine!
Best regards
Harriett

[brewmaster15]

Thanks everyone, Fingers crossed that it works...I'll be keeping that tank spotless for at least a week... and then I'll try taking the sutures out....I will probably next the fish periodically to see how its healing as well.

So far shes doing very well, given all that has happened to her.

-al

[Roxanne]

...can't believe you'd think anyone would think it was a bad idea... if you have the stomach to do it, suturing it is a brilliant idea Al:thumbsup:

Interesting also that you are going to rely on clean water and the fishes own natural healing ability to treat. This will be a testament to the healing power of clean water won't it? If our tanks are clean to start with, an injury has a better chance of healing without infection I guess..Would you move on to an antibiotic if infection manifested itself?

Thanks for sharing Al..

[DiscusKeeper403]

That's too bad. I was going to suggest the possibility of stitches, before I saw that you did it! Keep the water clean and she should be fine. Will you need to remove the thread after the fish is healed, or will it fall out on its own?

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

yeah, great stitchwork Al, jeez. way to go on that one. Dr. Al, medicine-man :D:D ..I think she'll be just fine with the way u stitched her up...if anything I think thats BETTER to close to wound than to leave an open wound to heal by itself. like the other said, you had the guts to STITCH up your fish, I like your style ;)

[rickztahone]

sorry to hear what happened Al but you seem to have taken action quickly and provided the best possible care after the fact. your fish is a lucky one indeed and it is jaw-dropping beautiful. please post pictures when she recovers. good luck

[DLock3d]

If she doesn't fair well at least you know you tried everything within your power. She looks great post stitches.

[smsimcik]

Hi Al, Nice suture job. Being the resident vet here on the forum I might mention that you should probably leave the sutures in for at least 2 weeks for proper healing. Fish and reptiles heal more slowly than warm blooded creatures. Also, wet sutures come untied very easily depending on what type of suture material you used. Don't be suprised if one or both come out prematurely. Here's hoping for the best though. She sure is pretty.

[dpt8]

Sorry to hear your set back Al. I hope you saved some fry from the first batch. If anyone can turn that fish around, you can. Good luck Bro !!

[j_li8]

Sorry to hear that Al. That's one good looking fish. I've come close to dropping a few lids into the tank while removing them just to ensure that i don't knock them into the tank. The stitch job looks good. I wouldnt have even thought of that. Do the stitches seem to bother the fish at all?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

That is a bummer Al. Maybe keep some Tricane on hand for any future outpatient procedures and you could do it all at one time and minimize stress to you and the fish (works great for culls too...). Looks good though. What are you planning to do to attempt to prevent infection?? Something that brutal looking might require something a bit more than just maintaining a clean tank.

-Ryan

[kaceyo]

I can't count all the times I've bumped a glass lid into a tank or had to grab at one clumsily, one handed, as it fell. And it's almost always in a breeding tank for some reason. Looks like you have the sitch well in hand though, and good luck with your patient.
I'll be watching this one with interest.

Kacey

[kirkp]

That's a definite bummer Al. Not just loosing the fry but damaging such a beautiful fish. I'm sure you were sick over it. Suturing the fish a dumb idea? I don't see why. From your pics she looks like she came through it well and I would think that it will heal just as well as if it wasn't sutured. On top of that it'll look better when it's all healed.

Good luck.

Kirk

[Elite Aquaria]

Al, I know how it fells...I lost my Red Cover pair last year and I was devastated. Looks like she will make it...

[brewmaster15]

So far shes doing very well....I have to say that I have never sutured anything so fast in my life!...She really doesn't look the worse for the wear at this time.

Steve, I did not know you were a vet, and I'll gladly take that advice! Thanks..I'll be sure to watch the threads.. ..and leave them in as long as I can.

Ryan, I'm not sure yet about the antibiotics...I'm on the fence...I hate to use them unless I need to....that said...I may decide to go with one if I see even the slightest issue...If I do...it will be maracyn 2 I use......I am also debating whether to net the fish daily and swap the area with iodine.. Thanks for the tricaine advice....

David, I didn't save any from the first batch for myself...but I do have a tank of 40 fry that are close to a month old from this pair....and I have another San on eggs paired to an unrelated fish....so hopefully I have plenty to work with if she does not survive or goes off the spawn.

I'll make plenty of updates and post some pics again soon.

Thanks all!

-al

[dpt8]

Al, I know you will save this beautiful female and get her to produce more young.. You are very dilligent.. And she IS most beautiful..

[LizStreithorst]

You did an excellent job, Brew. You might consider putting some meth blue in the tank and hooking up a UV filter if you have one around. The lesion will be a target for bacterial infection.

[Eddie]

Al, very sorry to hear about the accident. You definitely did an amazing job fixing her up, it looks super clean. I'm hoping she heals well and back to normal in no time.

All the best,

Eddie

[Vieira]

best of luck Al. the fish looks good Im sure she will be fine.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Might be a good idea to use acriflavine or similar in the water to help keep bacteria numbers down a bit....safer than an antibiotic at this point since its a preventative measure. A little salt couldnt hurt either.

-Ryan

[Mr Wild]

I have been away and had not seen this thread until now, as if you don't have enough on your plate!. Hoping all goes well for you and nope I would try anything to help mine so I don't think you went too far!

[Darren's Discus]

Al,
soory to hear about this,How is she doing ?



cheers

[Scribbles]

Al,

My first thought was a quick stitch or two also. I wonder if you can use super glue on fish? How long does it need to dry? Is it waterproof? San Merahs are a favorite of mine too and she is a beautiful representative of the strain. She's in good hands with you. Best of luck.

Chris

[patrick richard]

Al,

I'm sorry to hear about four female San Merah. I'm sure with your great care, she will pull through this. She's in good hands.

Keep us posted..

Patrick

[mmorris]

Sorry to hear, Al. What a drag. My hinges split so some of my tops are in two parts. I scraped up a female pretty badly recently but it was minor in comparison. Why did you have to cull the fry? Couldn't you have put her in another tank to recouperate and let the male raise them?

[LizStreithorst]

I quit using glass tops a long time ago because I too was too rough on them. Now I use a piece of blue styrofoam toward the back of the tank and a home made light of the John Nicholson design in front. Might be worth y'all considering.

[TankWatcher]

Quite a story Al. Sorry you & the fish had to go through this, but so glad you had the stomach to do what needed to be done. She is a beautiful fish.

On another forum, a guy gave a blow by blow account of the operation he performed on his angel (top lip was dislocated). He used clove oil (5 drops per 4ltrs) in tank water as an anaesthetic & said it took about 3 mins in the clove oil water for the anaesthetic to kick in enough. The fish tipped over onto it's side and it's gill movement slowed. As well as pain relief, he thought it also helped stop the fish from thrashing around during the procedure.

Apparently all was successful & his fish is fine now. With your excellent care, I'm sure you'll have the same result.

[Eyecandy]

Hi.. Sorry you and your beautiful fish had to go thru all this but it's amazing that you thought to suture the wound and were able to perform the surgery.. How is she progressing... She's in great hands so I'm sure it will work out ok. Take care Sue:).

[allan_mark76]

Updates??? So how is the patient???

~AKA~

[kaceyo]

Hey Al,
Would love to see some update pics. How are the fishes stiches holding up?

Kacey

[jessbullock]

Wow, my lids are evil sometimes too :mad:

I was going to suggest dermabond (like crazy glue) but it looks like you've got it covered. I've seen wilds with whole anal/dorsal fin pieces snapped off at the base (ewwwww..) that recovered with clean water. Yours doesn't look too bad!

Best of luck,
Jess

[DLock3d]

Any update Al?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Just a quick update here. I'll post pics in a few days. The patient is doing well and healing but the stitches did not hold. Looking back at the accident I think I have an idea why.. The lid that fell in was a very heavy piece of plate glass and I think that the area in question wasn't just cut...it was crushed badly and the tissue was just too mashed.. That whole area has pretty much receded and is healing over...doesn't look too bad just looks like shes growing a second tail of fin!:)

As for the state of health of the Female.. The male broke through the wire barrier yesterday and has been at her side since then. Today they surprised me with a batch of eggs:) which they are are tending currently.

thanks all,
-al

Ps..Martha... I had to sacrifice the fry because I literally have no tanks availible right now to move the female to....and these fry had literally just gone free swimming and not even attached yet.....it wasn't worth the trying to save them or foster them. ..The pair was what was important to me.

[Yassmeena]

Hi all,
Just a quick update here. I'll post pics in a few days. The patient is doing well and healing but the stitches did not hold. Looking back at the accident I think I have an idea why.. The lid that fell in was a very heavy piece of plate glass and I think that the area in question wasn't just cut...it was crushed badly and the tissue was just too mashed.. That whole area has pretty much receded and is healing over...doesn't look too bad just looks like shes growing a second tail of fin!:)

As for the state of health of the Female.. The male broke through the wire barrier yesterday and has been at her side since then. Today they surprised me with a batch of eggs:) which they are are tending currently.

thanks all,
-al

Ps..Martha... I had to sacrifice the fry because I literally have no tanks availible right now to move the female to....and these fry had literally just gone free swimming and not even attached yet.....it wasn't worth the trying to save them or foster them. ..The pair was what was important to me.

Hey Al,

So sorry about the injury. But new eggs! That's just great - she's already pulling thru!

I'm sure all of us here on Simply would love to see pictures and hear updates.

Best of luck,

Yasmin

[Eddie]

Hey Al,

So sorry about the injury. But new eggs! That's just great - she's already pulling thru!

I'm sure all of us here on Simply would love to see pictures and hear updates.

Best of luck,

Yasmin

Ditto what Yas said Al, really glad to hear the female is doing her thing. Sorry to hear about the second fin/tail.

All the best with them,

Eddie

[Scribbles]

Glad to hear that she is doing ok. Laying eggs is a great sign. The second fin/tail may be a bummer but its much better than losing her. Keep us posted and good luck with her continued recovery.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

Fantastic news Al so pleased she is so happy she is laying! Great news

[Chad Hughes]

Al,

Crazy story! I am so glad to hear that through all the tail crushing and surgery that the pair has come through and still produces! Outstanding! Watch those lids! It's happened to me to but no to the extent of damage that you experienced.

I think the worst thing I've ever done was to get a 6" adult stuck to the end of a siphon hose. That was freaky! He had a round "bruise" on his side for about two weeks. Today you cannot tell his guts were nearly sucked through his skin. LOL! Gotta watch those siphon hoses too!

Best wishes!

[DLock3d]

I might want a few of those fry once they get old enough to ship out. I wouldn't mind telling their mothers story for generations to come. ha ha

[brewmaster15]

okay...some pics I took yesterday...

-al

[Eddie]

Thanks for sharing the updated pictures Al. Beautiful fish and good luck with the babies! Looks like it didn't even phase her. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Eddie,
Its too bad that she will be scarred, but She is still a beautiful fish, and a a great parent... Looks like she forgave my clumsiness!!:)

-al

[TankWatcher]

:love:Seems she lost none of her appeal to your male:love: So glad to see she is feeling well enough to give you a nice batch of eggs.

I love a happy ending :heart2: :heart2: :heart2:

[dpt8]

Hey Al, Time to move out some more fish and make room for your awesome San Merahs.. :9) You KNEW I'd reply with that right !!??

I am glad this female responded well. How can you miss with such great water changes.. Any pics don't do this strain justice.. Keep working with them. Won't be easy to replace that quality and deep red coloring... A mere scare won't mare the genetic value.. Regardless she will still look awesome !! David T

[mikel]

Oh sorry about the fish, Al! I just got to this thread, and it's one amzing story! I think I remember seeing this pair when I was there at your palce last, and I noted how stunning her color pattern was. In any case, love conquers all, and glad the male will accept her as she is. The genes are what's important here, and hopefully you will have tankfuls of baby females that will look just like her when they are grown! Best! mike:):):)

[Scribbles]

Glad to hear that she is doing well Al. Best of luck with her continuing recovery.

Chris

[Disgirl]

Al, this just proves how tough discus really are! She is still beautiful and seems to be recovering well. Excellent care sure makes a big difference!
Barb:)

[brewmaster15]

Motherhood suites her just fine.:):):):)

-al

[Eddie]

Woohoo Al, thats awesome! She is such a champ!

All the best with them,

Eddie

[poconogal]

Awww, so glad she's recovered. Seeing her carrying fry, that's a heartwarming pic, Al!

[Scribbles]

Congratulations Al! Looks like she's coming along great. I would definately have to agree with you that motherhood suits her. Have you raised fries from this pair before?

Chris

[brewmaster15]

Congratulations Al! Looks like she's coming along great. I would definately have to agree with you that motherhood suits her. Have you raised fries from this pair before?

Chris Only to quarter size...which is about where a previous batch is at now....This time around I'm keeping a good number of them...provided I make the hard decision of what to let go to make room!

unlimited potentials...very limited space!:)

-al

[Vieira]

wow that awsome things worked out

[Eyecandy]

Hi Al.... So glad everything worked out. She's beautiful scar and all and she will have beautiful babies.... Sue:D

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Thought I'd post an update here.. She's doing unbelievably well...Healing over better than I could have possibly hoped for...

-al

[rickztahone]

Hi all,
Thought I'd post an update here.. She's doing unbelievably well...Healing over better than I could have possibly hoped for...

-al
that's very good to hear. will you be selling these soon?

[brewmaster15]

that's very good to hear. will you be selling these soon? maybe:)
-al

[Elite Aquaria]

You better send some to me as a backup...;)

[mmorris]

How 'bout selling me the pair? :D

[brewmaster15]

How 'bout selling me the pair? :D Nope, They belong here...for better or for worse, in sickness or in health, till death do us part:)I'm just too attached and sentimental over a fish.;):D:D:D

[Ed13]

Nope, They belong here...for better or for worse, in sickness or in health, till death do us part:)I'm just too attached and sentimental over a fish.;):D:D:D
LOL Al love the red color on them! Nice pair and nice job on her!

[Kenny's Discus]

Al,

You did a amazing job rescuing her. Look at how well she's healed and she's back in action already!:thumbsup: All the best to their future spawns I love that deep red maroon color on her!

Kenny

[Scribbles]

Glad to hear that all is well Al. She is spectacular. Let us know if you are selling any of the fry.

Chris

[H82LOS3]

WOW

[dpt8]

Hi Master.. It was great to get an update on your fish at the meeting. I am so glad everything worked out !! BUT, how could this fish not get better.. its in the best hands. I'm sure she got huge huge water changes every day.. You not only saved this fish but saved your strain. Couldn't of happened to a nicer guy.. I hope to see LOTS of babies there when I visit.. hehe David Grasshopper

[ashaysathe]

Amazing..

"Why Fear when Al is Here"

Must be what San Merah's must be saying.

Nicely Done.

[Jason]

great its working out AL,

remember I'm on the fry list;)

[DLock3d]

Hi all,
Thought I'd post an update here.. She's doing unbelievably well...Healing over better than I could have possibly hoped for...

-al

I'm pretty sure I was one of the first to claim some fry so please don't forget me Al. I'll take the two in picture four here. ha ha ha ha Good luck keeping track of them. :P

[Scribbles]

Any updates Al? How is she and the fry doing.

Chris