Final result of Al's fishless cycling idea

[Disgirl]

Today is the 17th day of my experiment. I can call it a success now. My ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0 and Nitrate is 5. I have been doing wc's and have added more Miracle Gro a few days ago. So it all looks good to me, I have added no water or used filter from any other tank. Had a few plants in there for a few days but the high numbers "melted" them and all were removed about 10 days ago. Just gravel and rocks and a piece of wood in there now. I plan to add a few fish next week. Thanks for interest in my experiment and I will be using this cycling in the future in fishless, unplanted tanks and will only add fish and plants after the cycle is finished. Any questions just ask!
Barb :)

[Eddie]

Thats excellent Barb! Really good news. 17 days is super fast too. I wonder if it could even possibly be done faster. :)

Thanks for taking the time!

Eddie

[rickztahone]

that's incredible Barb. 17 days instead of the usual 42 days

[KJoFan]

Sounds great Barb! I'm actually giving it a shot myself. I started a few days ago. Friday night I believe is when I added the Miracle Gro. I tested things last night and had readings of:

ammonia 2
nitrite 2
nitrate 10

I did throw in a handful of guppy grass yesterday morning just to see if it sucked any of the nitrates up. I haven't done a waterchange as yet. I will probably test again tonight to see how things are progressing and go from there.

Thanks for letting us follow you through the experiment!

[yim11]

Any chance we could get a write up/how to in the form of a sticky for this? I'd like to try this but have never done a fishless cycle before and unsure of the timelines as far as when to add more Mircle Grow, when to start doing w/c, etc.

Thanks in advance!
-jim

[Chad Hughes]

Barb,

Great job on this! I'm sure many will benefit from your efforts! Thanks to Al as well for planting the "compost" seed! LOL! Who would have thought miracle grow does more than fertilize plants. Thnaks you guys!

Best wishes!

[Disgirl]

Any chance we could get a write up/how to in the form of a sticky for this? I'd like to try this but have never done a fishless cycle before and unsure of the timelines as far as when to add more Mircle Grow, when to start doing w/c, etc.

Thanks in advance!
-jim

Yes, I would be glad to write up my experiment and how I did it. Al, should I do it and where do I put it? Thank you Eddie, Ricardo, Karen, Jim and Chad! I added another 1/4 tsp. of the fertilizer today. Don't want my good bacterias to starve to death while I wait to put fish in :D. I will give another update in several more days and hope all will be 0 0 0!
Barb

[bs6749]

42 days Ricardo? Never heard that one myself. I always heard about 23-25. What I do now is an instant cycle. It involves keeping multiple sponge filters in a tank and when I set up a new tank I take one that established and place it into the new tank and put a new filter into the old tank. There you have yourself an instant cycle. This also works if you know someone that can give you some filter media if you are setting up your first tank.

[Joan]

I'll also be trying this method next week on a 50 gal. A few questions. With the ammonia "wait and see" method the initial target ammonia concentration is ~5ppm for starters, but I see you only brought your water to between 3 -4. Reason? Also, looking at the Miracle Grow at Home Depot there is liquid and blue granules type, which did you use?
I haven't run a tank for several years now, so starting from scratch again with nothing to seed the tank, and will not seed with anything from any LFS, had a bad experience doing that. So, the Miracle Grow will not harm the AC filter in any way? Should I remove the charcoal layer from the filter while doing this? BTW, this is going to be a tetra tank, not a discus tank, but please don't hold that against me...lol. I had thirty discus between 01 - 04 and had to take down the beautiful tanks due to illness, but one day I plan to re-establish my 120 gal.

[Disgirl]

I'll also be trying this method next week on a 50 gal. A few questions. With the ammonia "wait and see" method the initial target ammonia concentration is ~5ppm for starters, but I see you only brought your water to between 3 -4. Reason? Also, looking at the Miracle Grow at Home Depot there is liquid and blue granules type, which did you use?
I haven't run a tank for several years now, so starting from scratch again with nothing to seed the tank, and will not seed with anything from any LFS, had a bad experience doing that. So, the Miracle Grow will not harm the AC filter in any way? Should I remove the charcoal layer from the filter while doing this? BTW, this is going to be a tetra tank, not a discus tank, but please don't hold that against me...lol. I had thirty discus between 01 - 04 and had to take down the beautiful tanks due to illness, but one day I plan to re-establish my 120 gal.

Hi Joan, I just added 1 Tbsp at the beginning to start the cycle. Then I waited to see Nitrites, then Nitrates and then the ammonia leaving as Ni and Na began. Now I am having to add more fert. every few days to keep things going until I put fish in. I did that today and tomorrow I will test and hope/expect to see no ammonia. The fert. will not harm the AC filter and no I don't think you need charcoal. I use the blue powder fert. not the liquid. It comes in several types, I used the 20/20/20. But the 15/30/15 would be OK too. Your tetra tank will be beautiful I am sure! I have one too.
Barb:)

[Joan]

Thanks Barb, a few more questions...Did you just dump a tablespoon of the stuff into the tank or did you dissolve it with de-chlorinated water first? Did you de-chlorinate your tank before starting the cycling and what temp did you keep the water at?

One other thing and I'm good to go...lol. Did you add more miracle grow when you saw the ammonia levels dropping at any point before the major w/c - waiting on fish? Or did you just use the initial amount, I'm surprised at the results if all you used was one initial tbls. Can't wait to try this, thanks again...

[David Rose]

Thanks Barb for testing Al's recipe and process and posting the results. I'll definitely use it on my next startup.

Thanks to Al too for sharing.

David

[Disgirl]

Joan, I filled up my 60 gal tank with tapwater at room temp (75) and added Prime to dechlor. it. Later in the day I dissolved 1 Tbsp of the fert. in a cup of tank water then dumped it in. I tested the tank water the next day and the Ammonia was 2-3ppm. I didn't add anymore fert. until day 13 when I had had no ammonia for a couple days. But beware of one thing, when you do a wc and add Prime it will give you a false positive ammonia reading. That messed up my numbers for a couple days until it went back to 0. I will now keep adding a little fert. about 1/4 tsp every couple days or more, just to put ammonia in there until I get fish to do it:D. And I will be letting my Nitrate reading let me know when/if to change water until I get fish and do regular wc's in there.

BTW, the only reason I did this experiment and didn't just put in a used sponge or used filtering material is so I could cycle a tank without any bad bacteria or parasites, etc. from the old tank going into my new tank. Of course I know that I could have done it the easy way as I have been doing for a long time. This is a NEW way of doing it, for those who wonder :D.
Barb

[Disgirl]

Thanks Barb for testing Al's recipe and process and posting the results. I'll definitely use it on my next startup.

Thanks to Al too for sharing.

David

Thanks David for your vote of confidence! I think this is going to be a great way to cycle a tank with nothing harmful going in.
Barb:)

[Chad Hughes]

Great job Barb! This is great data!

Best wishes!

[Disgirl]

Thanks for your help Chad! You should see how well that Cabomba is growing in my little goldfish/aquatic plant pond in my yard. Loves it out there :D.
Barb

[Chad Hughes]

No worries Barb!

Tha stuff will grow just about anywhere! I love it.

Have a great day!

[dvc_r]

Barb:
You and Al are pioneers of the future!!! The Barbal cycling method (or rather the Albarb method) You two can fight over the trademark... XD

One question for you Barb: Did you keep a record of the phosphates during your testing? I'm curious if they skyrocketed.

Thanks again for the threads/posts, this was the most interesting subject matter I have ever come across!

Jim

[rickscics]

I have to agree with post #8 from bs6749
I have cycled tanks using ammonia. I always have had results in the three week range. Smaller tanks less time.
I never have to go through all that now as I always keep extra filters running on my tanks and keep large amounts of media in trays in my sump tanks. I just fill up the new tank and move a mature filter to the new tank. It's ready to go. It's the bacteria colonies in the filter media/ sponges ,you are growing when cycling. You are not cycling the water. When cycling with amonia you do not want to do any water changes until all readings are acceptable. The nitrite colony will take longer to grow than the amonia colony . At least that is what I have found in my experience .

[Disgirl]

Barb:
You and Al are pioneers of the future!!! The Barbal cycling method (or rather the Albarb method) You two can fight over the trademark... XD

One question for you Barb: Did you keep a record of the phosphates during your testing? I'm curious if they skyrocketed.

Thanks again for the threads/posts, this was the most interesting subject matter I have ever come across!

Jim

Thanks a lot Jim! No I didn't test for phosphates. I guess it is too late now or I could get a test kit for it. It can be the Albarb method :D:D! I will see what Al says about this. It sure was his idea, I never would have thought of it. But I was setting up a new tank and had no rush to do it so I thought it might be interesting, and I am not even in Jr High to do it as a science fair project :D.
Barb

[Disgirl]

Well, it was 3 weeks ago today that I added the Miracle Gro fert. to my newly set up tank. It is all cycled and has been for several days. 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and 10 or less Nitrate. Have put in some more plants and when my new angels are out of QT they will go in. I will take a pic then and post it. Thanks again for your interest in my experiment of a new way to cycle with nothing from an existing tank to start it up.
Barb :)

[Chad Hughes]

Barb,

Sounds perfect! So, how long do you estimate that his process takes? I'll be trying this same method on a 1000 gallon system this summer. Should be interesting! LOL!

Have a great weekend!

[Disgirl]

As far as I can tell it took 2-3 weeks. When the Nitrate hit 160 and I did the first wc of 90% as you recommended, the Prime I added messed up the ammonia reading for a couple days before it went back to 0. And I found out not to add any live plants until it is cycled. I guess it is just too much ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for them all at once? Now I am adding just 1/4 tsp. of the fert. every few days to keep the bacteria fed until I put the fish in. Is this the way to go Chad? I guess you will have to add much more fert. to get your huge new system going. Good luck with it and I can say that this method does work :D.

[Chad Hughes]

As far as I can tell it took 2-3 weeks. When the Nitrate hit 160 and I did the first wc of 90% as you recommended, the Prime I added messed up the ammonia reading for a couple days before it went back to 0. And I found out not to add any live plants until it is cycled. I guess it is just too much ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for them all at once? Now I am adding just 1/4 tsp. of the fert. every few days to keep the bacteria fed until I put the fish in. Is this the way to go Chad? I guess you will have to add much more fert. to get your huge new system going. Good luck with it and I can say that this method does work :D.

Barb,

Sounds like you got it down! I may be asking you questions later when I start using this new method. Thanks again for all your work on this!

Best wishes!

[Joan]

Thanks for the info Barb, I've got my 55 gal ready to roll, just need to go buy the Miracle Grow today. I'll keep this thread posted on the results as I go. I'm going to bring the NH3 up to ~5ppm for starters, and maybe add a little food as well during the process. These new AC filters come with bio-chips so maybe the process will go even faster, but no hurries, at the price of tropical fish these days I'm in no hurry to stock. Wish I could do a Discus tank again, maybe next year.

[Disgirl]

Good luck with it Joan. I started out with 1 TBSP for 60 gal water. It got my ammonia to 2-3. You will probably need to add more than that to get up to 5ppm. I will be interested to see how it works for you. I just added more today to see how long it takes to get back down to 0. Fish in a few weeks after their QT. I didn't want this 60 gal. tank to be QT for 10 baby angels although I guess it could be.
Barb :)

[rickztahone]

Thanks for the info Barb, I've got my 55 gal ready to roll, just need to go buy the Miracle Grow today. I'll keep this thread posted on the results as I go. I'm going to bring the NH3 up to ~5ppm for starters, and maybe add a little food as well during the process. These new AC filters come with bio-chips so maybe the process will go even faster, but no hurries, at the price of tropical fish these days I'm in no hurry to stock. Wish I could do a Discus tank again, maybe next year.

i'd skip the food. everything else sounds fine though

[Joan]

You're right, the food would probably stale up the tank too much. I put in a large Tbs of MG last night, waited a few hours and tested. The NH3/NH4 was between 4-5ppm, right where I wanted it. I guess Colorado Springs switched their water sanitation from chlorine to chloramines a few years back so will have to watch out for that. Last time I tested tap water here it was medium hardness and PH out of tap was 7.6. A little high for the critters but extra air and some PH down would always do the trick. I don't think I have to mess with PH while cycling, I don't remember????

[joanr]

Ok, I found my old username and somehow remembered the password after 6 years....I recall someone saying that Nitrifiers can live dormant in a sponge filter that has dried out for many years, any truth to that? I just found about ten of them from my discus tanks and would throw one in the cycling tank if that is actually true.

[Disgirl]

Joan I wouldn't try an old sponge at all. One good reason for this fishless cycling is to not introduce any potentially nasty stuff into a new and clean system. Wouldn't want to risk it. My ph is 7.6 and all went well with the cycle. Looks like you are off to a good start! Remember to add Prime when you do a wc or your chlorine and chlora. will kill off your new bacteria.
Barb :)

[joanr]

Does that mean the NB could survive in the sponge for all these years? Anyhow, they came out of my pristine Discus tanks, no pathogens, parasites or other nastiness.

[Disgirl]

I have no idea how long the bacteria could survive. But I still wouldn't take a chance. Since the MG seems to do the job all by itself you won't need old sponges. If you do use them I sure would get them wet and microwave the heck out of them before putting them in the tank. These days with all this"discus plague" or whatever it is I want to be extra careful with my fish.
Barb :)

[joanr]

I have no idea how long the bacteria could survive. But I still wouldn't take a chance. Since the MG seems to do the job all by itself you won't need old sponges. If you do use them I sure would get them wet and microwave the heck out of them before putting them in the tank. These days with all this"discus plague" or whatever it is I want to be extra careful with my fish.
Barb :)

OK Barb, nix the ancient sponge filters, no need for any extra concerns. I have one more question for you. Since you are still feeding the tank while the Angels are in QT are you going to do yet another huge W/C before you put them in? I'm not sure everything they add in the MG would be good for the fish, and with the pure ammonia method you are only introducing the ammonia, not any other compounds/trace minerals etc.

[Disgirl]

Yes I sure will. Probably at least 75% the day before the fish go in and a good dose of Prime since our water has chlorine.
Barb

[joanr]

Ok, I'm at day three. The ammonia is off the charts, probably at ~8ppm. No nitrites and NO3 is barely 1ppm if that. So, I think you got a jump with the fact that you had some plants in the tank when you started. I don't remember such an ammonia jump with using just the pure ammonia, it started at 4-5ppm. I'll let it brew a few more days and report back. If the NH3/4 is still that high with no other readings, what should I do? A small w/c to get it back down to 4-5ppm?

[Disgirl]

Joan, what is the NPK of the fert you used? MG makes several types. Mine is the 15-30-15 (approx) kind. That could be the difference. The plants I put in were not much and they all turned to mush after a week and I took the stuff out. I think you shouldn't do any wc's until you have much higher Nitrate. When mine got to 160 I changed 90% water and the Nitrate stayed at 30 or less before going all the way down to 5 or so within the next week. All my numbers are great now and I add a bit of fert. every few days. Fish go in in about 2 more weeks, 10 young angels. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Barb :)

[Scribbles]

Wonderful experiment Barb. Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

Chris

[joanr]

Barb, looking at the box it's 24-8-16. My smaller box that's been in the cabinet for years now say's 15-30-15. I had no idea they had different blends of the blue crystals, what do the numbers mean? I hope this won't delay things.

[Disgirl]

Well Joan, there is the answer to your initial high ammonia readings. With fertilizer, the N is total nitrogen (ammoniacal nitrogen and urea nitrogen), your ammonia readings. The P is Phosphate and the K is Potash. You added much more nitrogen than I did with my 15-30-15. But don't worry, it should be fine. It will just take longer for your nitrites and nitrates to go up then down. You are experimenting here too :D. And thanks Chris, for being interested!
Barb

[joanr]

Thanks Barb, I'm just hoping that much "N" isn't overkill, making it impossible for the cycle to start. I'll wait and see, if worse comes to worse I can do a small w/c to get the ammonia back down to 3-4 or thereabouts. This is a great learning experience for my daughter, she's taking an oceanography class this year and although exposed to my discus days, she was too young to appreciate the processes, now she has a tank of her own and she loves doing the water testing.

[joanr]

This is what I think happened since it's been almost a week with nothing happening except for sky high ammonia levels. I found out that too much will inhibit the process as stated below, except I haven't seen any nitrite readings yet.

Too Much Ammonia?

It IS possible to add too much ammonia to the tank (generally several times the amounts suggested in either recipe), as some individuals discovered by mistake (thanks Boozap). What happens in this case is that the ammonia will spike very far off the chart, then the nitrite will spike as well (also way off the chart), and it will continue to spike for a very long time. Why? There are a couple of possibilities. The first is that the filter media and surfaces in the tank or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to grow and maintain a bacterial colony massive enough to convert all of the ammonia and all of the nitrite to nitrates. Another likely possibility is that the ammonia levels are high enough to inhibit growth (through a biofeedback mechanism) of the bacteria rather than promoting it. The solution is quite simple, however. If you realize that you've added way too much ammonia, simply do a water change, or if necessary a series of water changes, to bring the ammonia and/or nitrite levels back into the readable range on your test kit.

So I brought the nh3 back down to about 4-5ppm with 40% w/c, now it's just wait and see.

[rickztahone]

This is what I think happened since it's been almost a week with nothing happening except for sky high ammonia levels. I found out that too much will inhibit the process as stated below, except I haven't seen any nitrite readings yet.

Too Much Ammonia?

It IS possible to add too much ammonia to the tank (generally several times the amounts suggested in either recipe), as some individuals discovered by mistake (thanks Boozap). What happens in this case is that the ammonia will spike very far off the chart, then the nitrite will spike as well (also way off the chart), and it will continue to spike for a very long time. Why? There are a couple of possibilities. The first is that the filter media and surfaces in the tank or oxygen levels are simply insufficient to grow and maintain a bacterial colony massive enough to convert all of the ammonia and all of the nitrite to nitrates. Another likely possibility is that the ammonia levels are high enough to inhibit growth (through a biofeedback mechanism) of the bacteria rather than promoting it. The solution is quite simple, however. If you realize that you've added way too much ammonia, simply do a water change, or if necessary a series of water changes, to bring the ammonia and/or nitrite levels back into the readable range on your test kit.

So I brought the nh3 back down to about 4-5ppm with 40% w/c, now it's just wait and see.

Joan, i'm sorry i hadn't seen your try at the experiment or i would have suggested the small WC to bring your ammonia down to 4-5ppm. please keep us updated and tell us how it goes

[joanr]

My problem was I bought the wrong MG, mine was 24-8-16, instead of the 15-30-15. In some ways the lower concentration of P (phosphates) may be a good deal, but the 24 of N overloaded the tank. Simple fix, just reduce the initial amount by almost half. I'll get back in a few days with some readings after the w/c fix I did last night.

[KJoFan]

Ok I just want to quickly share my experience with the Miracle Gro cycling plan:

7-25: Added 1/2 tsp Miracle Gro to 40g tank

7-27:

Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

7-28:

Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 5+

7-29:

Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 10

7-30:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

8-1: Added 1/2 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 40

Performed 50% W/C


8-2:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25-.5
Nitrate: 20

8-3: Added 1 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

8-5:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40+

Performed 90% W/C

8-6:

Added 5 4" Discus
Added salt

8-7:

2-3 feedings of a cube or two of FBW
no water change

8-8:

2 feedings of two cubes of FBW
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

75% W/C

And all is well. :D

So all in all it took 11-12 days to completely cycle the tank. I only ever got my ammonia levels up to .5 that I noticed, although I didn't test the first couple days after originally adding the Miracle Gro. But, even with not waterchanging after their first full day in the tank, the levels were within reason. I'd call it a success and will definitely use this method again if I need get another tank up. ;)

[Eddie]

Ok I just want to quickly share my experience with the Miracle Gro cycling plan:

7-25: Added 1/2 tsp Miracle Gro to 40g tank

7-27:

Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

7-28:

Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 5+

7-29:

Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 10

7-30:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

8-1: Added 1/2 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 40

Performed 50% W/C


8-2:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25-.5
Nitrate: 20

8-3: Added 1 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

8-5:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40+

Performed 90% W/C

8-6:

Added 5 4" Discus
Added salt

8-7:

2-3 feedings of a cube or two of FBW
no water change

8-8:

2 feedings of two cubes of FBW
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

75% W/C

And all is well. :D

So all in all it took 11-12 days to completely cycle the tank. I only ever got my ammonia levels up to .5 that I noticed, although I didn't test the first couple days after originally adding the Miracle Gro. But, even with not waterchanging after their first full day in the tank, the levels were within reason. I'd call it a success and will definitely use this method again if I need get another tank up. ;)

Wow! That is fast fast! Great info! Thanks

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Sorry I missed the last several posts! Wowie, so glad it is working for others too :D:D:D. I added 15 Rummies to my tank today and all is well in there. 0 Ammo., 0 Nitrites and about 20 Nitrates. Keep up the posting folks...
Barb :)

[joanr]

Karen, which MG did you use? The 15-30-15 or the 24-8-16? The concentrations are printed on the side of the box upper right hand.
You cycled super fast!!

[KJoFan]

Hi Joan,

Mine was the 24-8-16. Yes it did cycle fast. As I said, I didn't get my Ammonia up too high to start with, which probably was part of it. But I knew I wasn't going to be adding a huge bio-load right off, and was only looking for a good starter colony of bacteria. I think it worked out well. I may test again tonight at water change time, just to see what the levels are, make sure everything is staying as it should. This will be their first day at full feed.

[joanr]

0.25 to - 0.50 NH3 to start? That's very low load, but like you said enough to start the cycle. You used the same concentration as I did.
Maybe with this MG it doesn't need the 5ppm initially. We'll all just have to keep experimenting. I did a w/c 2 days ago and brought the NH3/4 back down to measurable levels, it's now sitting at 4-5ppm. But still no NO3. What temperature did you keep the water at while cycling?

[KJoFan]

It might have been higher to start, I didn't start testing for a few days after adding the initial MG. So I can't say 100% what the NH3 started at. All I was looking for was to kick start the cycle. The load is low in the tank, and the feeding schedule will ramp up, not start heavy right away, so I'm confident that it will/has caught up to right where it should be.

I forgot to add that I also added some floating guppy grass from one of my shrimp tanks right from the start. This could have aided in the cycle a bit, I'm sure it harbored some good bacteria.

I kept my tank around 84-85, as that was where I wanted it for the fish.

[joanr]

Thanks Karen, wish I had some NB from a safe source! My water temp is at 82 right now, that should be ok. I'm going to do another small change to bring the NH3 down to around 3-4ppm and then just let it sit for a few days without changing anything. If I remember correctly it would take a week or so just to see the NO3 with the pure ammonia method. Guess I'm getting too impatient after reading the quick results you and Barb had.

[KJoFan]

I have extra guppy grass, I could send you some if the bacteria would survive shipping.

It is definitely hard to be patient with these things. We always want instant results! :)

[Disgirl]

Hang in there Joan, it will cycle. I think the large dose of nitrogen at the beginning just did things differently. But with your wc's it will be good soon. Karen used way less so her cycling went faster. I used 1 tbsp for 60 gal. All our experimenting is working isn't it? It is so good to find out that one can successfully get the cycle going without having to put POSSIBLE bad stuff from another tank into a new setup. Just a different way than straight ammonia, and faster it seems. Congrats Joan and Karen on trying it!
Barb :)

[joanr]

Yep, I remember sending off for some NB in a glass jar that cost me an arm and a leg, and I'm not sure if it did any good anyhow. I'll just be patient and post results as they come, can't afford to stock the tank till next month anyway....lol.

[Disgirl]

Yep, I remember sending off for some NB in a glass jar that cost me an arm and a leg, and I'm not sure if it did any good anyhow. I'll just be patient and post results as they come, can't afford to stock the tank till next month anyway....lol.

This just reminded me of something that happened to me several years ago :(. I could not get the green water to leave my Koi pond. I tried so many things. I fell for an ad for a jar of stuff that was supposed to "eat" the algae causing the green water. That jar of powder cost me $35 and it did nothing at all. What a scam that was. In the end it was a UV light that solved all my green water trouble. I had almost forgotten that until you mentioned a jar of stuff :D. I guess we have all been snookered at some time!
Barb

[Eddie]

Hey Barb, I am gonna try cycling about a half a dozen new sponge filters using a particular type of miracle grow rated at 30-10-10. I am waiting for my new Azoo air pumps to arrive and then it is on! I am gonna be cycling them in a 30 gallon rubbermaid bin. It will be interesting to see how it pans out!

Everything still going well with your tank?

[Disgirl]

Hey Barb, I am gonna try cycling about a half a dozen new sponge filters using a particular type of miracle grow rated at 30-10-10. I am waiting for my new Azoo air pumps to arrive and then it is on! I am gonna be cycling them in a 30 gallon rubbermaid bin. It will be interesting to see how it pans out!

Everything still going well with your tank?

Hi Eddie, yes all is well in my experiment tank. No ammonia or nitrites. Nitrates are 20 or less. I have added some plants and 12 Rummies and 3 little Corys. I am pleased with it. Did not use one single thing from an existing tank to set this one up! If you use the 30-10-10 fert. you will be putting a whole lot of Nitrogen (your ammo. here) into the water all at once. So you will have a high ammonia reading. Joan tried that too and her cycling went different than mine, with high ammo. and didn't go to Nitrite as quick as mine did with the 15-30-15. If you can't get a diff. fert. maybe just start out with way less of it? How about 1 teaspoon in 30 gal. to start, then test water the next day and see if you have at least 2ppm. If not then add a bit more. Keep us up on the testings :D.
Barb

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie, yes all is well in my experiment tank. No ammonia or nitrites. Nitrates are 20 or less. I have added some plants and 12 Rummies and 3 little Corys. I am pleased with it. Did not use one single thing from an existing tank to set this one up! If you use the 30-10-10 fert. you will be putting a whole lot of Nitrogen (your ammo. here) into the water all at once. So you will have a high ammonia reading. Joan tried that too and her cycling went different than mine, with high ammo. and didn't go to Nitrite as quick as mine did with the 15-30-15. If you can't get a diff. fert. maybe just start out with way less of it? How about 1 teaspoon in 30 gal. to start, then test water the next day and see if you have at least 2ppm. If not then add a bit more. Keep us up on the testings :D.
Barb

Most definitely! Be a cool experiment!

Thanks for doing all the leg work! :)

Eddie

[joanr]

I'm still not seeing any Nitrites after almost 2 weeks of this. I did lower the NH3 with a w/c about 4 days ago, still waiting for NO2. The ammonia is still at 4ppm, no change there.

Eddie, yes, by all means re-calculate for that 30 formula. I'm just wondering if the lower phosphates in my 24-8-16 has something to do with how slow this is going for me. I don't know why that would be though. AL???

[Eddie]

I'm still not seeing any Nitrites after almost 2 weeks of this. I did lower the NH3 with a w/c about 4 days ago, still waiting for NO2. The ammonia is still at 4ppm, no change there.

Eddie, yes, by all means re-calculate for that 30 formula. I'm just wondering if the lower phosphates in my 24-8-16 has something to do with how slow this is going for me. I don't know why that would be though. AL???


Will do Joan, it will be a few more days as I am waiting for my new air pumps should be interesting. I am wondering what the ideal number would be for the fastest cycle.

Take care and will jump on this thread when the pumps get here!



Eddie

[Disgirl]

Joan and Eddie, I am now wondering if ph and hardness affects the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate ? My ph is 7.6 and hardness is only 50ppm. Temp is room, 75 degrees. My MG is 15-30-15. I started out with only 2-3ppm ammonia on day 2. It was all gone by day 7 and the nitrites and nitrates were rising. I can see that this is still an experiment in progress. Other factors seem to come into play here. Keep posting your results!
Barb

[joanr]

It's now been 3 weeks since adding the MG. Two weeks were wasted since I overdosed the water and that prevented the cycle from starting. One thing for sure, you do not need 5ppm of MG as you would with regular pure ammonia. Three nights ago I again did a 35% w/c to get the NH3 down to about 3-4ppm. Yesterday I measured trace amounts of Nitrite and today it's at 0.3 or so. Hopefully this will increase on a daily basis and then I guess I could accelerate things even more by adding a teaspoon of Rid-X, heh, they say the bacteria in Rid-X will eat anything...lol. Only joking, but that's what I thought when I saw the commercial for the stuff tonight. So, the cycle has started, I'll keep posting the progress every few days. Too bad I didn't notice the difference in the formulas when I started this.

[Eddie]

It's now been 3 weeks since adding the MG. Two weeks were wasted since I overdosed the water and that prevented the cycle from starting. One thing for sure, you do not need 5ppm of MG as you would with regular pure ammonia. Three nights ago I again did a 35% w/c to get the NH3 down to about 3-4ppm. Yesterday I measured trace amounts of Nitrite and today it's at 0.3 or so. Hopefully this will increase on a daily basis and then I guess I could accelerate things even more by adding a teaspoon of Rid-X, heh, they say the bacteria in Rid-X will eat anything...lol. Only joking, but that's what I thought when I saw the commercial for the stuff tonight. So, the cycle has started, I'll keep posting the progress every few days. Too bad I didn't notice the difference in the formulas when I started this.

Thanks for the update! It will be interesting to see how much I will need to use with mine being 30-10-10. Probably like 1/2 teaspoon! I'll be cycling about half dozen filters in a rubbermaid. Should be interesting! Hopefully my Azoo pumps arrived today!

Take care,

Eddie

[Disgirl]

It's now been 3 weeks since adding the MG. Two weeks were wasted since I overdosed the water and that prevented the cycle from starting. One thing for sure, you do not need 5ppm of MG as you would with regular pure ammonia. Three nights ago I again did a 35% w/c to get the NH3 down to about 3-4ppm. Yesterday I measured trace amounts of Nitrite and today it's at 0.3 or so. Hopefully this will increase on a daily basis and then I guess I could accelerate things even more by adding a teaspoon of Rid-X, heh, they say the bacteria in Rid-X will eat anything...lol. Only joking, but that's what I thought when I saw the commercial for the stuff tonight. So, the cycle has started, I'll keep posting the progress every few days. Too bad I didn't notice the difference in the formulas when I started this.

Looks like it is finally starting Joan! Be patient and I bet it will move along now.
Barb :)

[Disgirl]

Thanks for the update! It will be interesting to see how much I will need to use with mine being 30-10-10. Probably like 1/2 teaspoon! I'll be cycling about half dozen filters in a rubbermaid. Should be interesting! Hopefully my Azoo pumps arrived today!

Take care,

Eddie

Yes, just a little bit to start Eddie. Test the next day and see if you have 2-3 ppm ammo. That seems to be good to start with, from what this experiment is showing. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
Barb :)

[joanr]

Eddie, I have a question for you. I've seen some pics of your tanks and really like the idea of BB tanks w/the potted plants. A little something extra besides the Cary Blue Paint. I've always wondered what to use in the pots? Is it a mixture of gravel or what? I've never done live plants in my discus tanks.

Tonight's readings are really showing some action now. Ammo is 3.5 ppm, NO2 is between .5 and 1ppm, ph holds steady here at 7.4 and water temp at 80F. Haven't measured nitrates yet, and still need to buy the KH, GH kits. For the little tetras going in there, I'm not messing with the PH. So considering that the first 2 weeks were probably overkill, I'd say that's pretty quick since the w/c on the 14th. Start about 3-4ppm and I think we have a quicker way to cycle than with pure ammo alone. How much of a bio load it will handle at first stock remains to be seen. I don't think it matters what formula is used, just adjust for desired ammo ppm.

Barb, how is your tank holding? Any sudden spikes? Besides the quicker cycle, what do you think are the pros of using the MG? Do you think the cycle quality is better, resulting in larger colonies?

[Eddie]

Hey there Joan, the plants have nothing for substrate. They are Anubias and can be tied off to anything and grow with low light. Probably the easiest plant IMO. The plants are tied to big rocks that are set inside the pots, nothing else. Easy as pie!

Take care,

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Hi Joan, my tank is doing just great. I have 15 Rummies and a small pleco in there along with plants in the gravel now. Plan to add my 12 young angels in a week or two. I never tried the straight ammonia cycling. Always just used old filter media from another tank to start up a new one. But Al's idea seemed like a good one so I tried it and can say it definitely worked. I have no ammonia, no nitrites and 20 or less Nitrates now. Plan to do a big wc soon before I add my angels. Sounds like yours is moving along well now. I know of at least 3 others who are trying this now on a tank. Eddie is right about Anubias being easy to grow. No soil needed and no high light either! I have anubias that is at least 25 yrs. old, at least the plants come from 25 yr. old stock. The plants aren't cheap but very long lived.
Barb

[joanr]

Thanks Eddie and Barb, I'll try the Anubias for sure. Glad your tank is staying stable, bet you can't wait to add the Angels. I had a Calico Angel I swear was 6", she was a monster. Didn't like any of my other tropicals, what a b.

Eddie, your discus are gorgous! I can't wait for Kenny's next shipment and/or Dan. My original stock was from Sunrise Tropicals back in the day when there were only about 12 strains to choose from. Then a batch from Cary. Now it's like jelly beans, so many awsome strains, it's going to be hard to choose.

[joanr]

Tonight's readings; Aug 20
Ammo: 0
Nitrite: 5ppm
Nitrate: 15pp

Ok, so now what? Do I wait to add small tester amounts of MG until I see the Nitrite down to 0? Or give it a little more ammo now? Doesn't seem like I'm going to have large amount of Nitrate at the end of this, maybe the different mix.

[Disgirl]

Good, it's working Joan! Don't add anything yet. Don't even do a wc yet. Just wait until your ammo and nitrite are both 0. Then add a bit of the MG, test the next day to make sure you have some ammo. reading. Then see if it goes back to 0 in a day or two. Keep doing this, you are feeding the good bacteria, do a wc when your nitrates get over 20 or even 40. In another week or so you may see 0, 0, and low nitrates. You can add some fish when your readings are stable and any MG added is "used" in a couple days. I added 15 rummies to the 60 gal tank when I had 0 ammo, 0 nitrite and 20 or less nitrate and it was that way over a week. All is well in there. :)
Barb

[joanr]

Ok Barb, thanks. This is a lot quicker than pure ammo. I'd like to know why though, maybe Al could shed some light on why the MG would work faster.

[Eddie]

Thats great Joan, and thanks for the comment. I finally got air pumps today so I will be starting this project tomorrow! Can't wait, heaven knows I need to start fresh again with all new equipment and filters.

Take care!

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Ok Barb, thanks. This is a lot quicker than pure ammo. I'd like to know why though, maybe Al could shed some light on why the MG would work faster.

I think it is because of the different type of ammonia. My fert. is ammoniacal nitrogen and urea. Also the phosphate and potash must make a difference too in the growth (feeding) of the bacteria, these are not in plain ammonia. These things are just IMO and what I am experimenting with. Al, any ideas to offer here :D? Or am I wrong? At least it does work to start a tank up from scratch!
Barb

[brewmaster15]

Barb, Joan and everyone else trying this... I'm really glad to see it working well for you and I hope everyone keeps posting their experiences here with miracle grow....

I wish I could add something as to why it may be working better but I'm not sure we have enough info...many things can affect the biofilter...... pH and hardness do.
We also have to be sure to compare apples to apples not oranges when we look at the nitrogen sources....


My biggest concerns were not so much would it work...but would there be algael Blooms also....and so far I don't think anyone has experienced them....still I'd not expose the tank to bright light while cycling!

Keep up the good work all... its great seeing an idea in action!

Thanks,
al

[joanr]

I've kept the lights on during the day, figured that everything needs light, including bacteria, and absolutley no bloom as yet.
Eddie, let us know how your filters do in the rubbermaid, should work just fine, I've cycled many filters that way. Saves water.

I figure this should be ready to go by mid-week, I'll post more numbers tomorrow.

[Disgirl]

And I never had any algae bloom either even though I had my lights on for 12 hrs. daily since I had a few anubias plants in there. I had had those anubias plants in bleach water first to kill Black beard algae on them, so there was no beneficial bacteria on them when I added them at the start of the experiment. Fertilizer only! Also this tank gets an hr. of morning sun every day! Just more info. here to help in the experiment :D Thanks for your info Al and Joan!
Barb

[Eddie]

Day 1

30 gallon rubbermaid, 5 Hydro IVs and 2 smaller sponges. I have no lights on the container at all. Using the 30-10-10.

PH-7.2
Ammonia-3.0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate0

I have added another teaspoon of MG this morning to see if I can get the ammonia up a bit higher.

Its interesting how everyone is having different readings across the board. Very strange how there is not nitrite/nitrates in my test.

Take care and be back tomorrow on this one!

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Hi Eddie, I didn't see any nitrite until day 5 but did have nitrate on day 3. I think that the different compositions of fertilizer some of us are using does give different numbers. However, it seems everyone is reaching the same final result. I am helping several others do this cycling too! Good luck with your sponges!
Barb :)

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie, I didn't see any nitrite until day 5 but did have nitrate on day 3. I think that the different compositions of fertilizer some of us are using does give different numbers. However, it seems everyone is reaching the same final result. I am helping several others do this cycling too! Good luck with your sponges!
Barb :)

Ah, okay, thought there was nitrite/nitrate after the first day with the other tests. So far so good, I guess. :D

Thanks for chiming in,

Eddie

[joanr]

Hi Eddie, you won't see nitrites or nitrates for several days until you establish some nitrosomis bacteria that will eat the ammo. Then after awhile you get nitrobacters which eat the nitrites and change them into nitrates. Or something like that. I waited almost 1.5 weeks until I saw nitrites and a few more days unil the nitrates were measurable. You are going to keep the water in the rubbermaids de-chlorinated and heated? I think the bacteria will grow quicker in 79-84 deg. F. I wouldn't take the ammo past 4ppm.
I did this a long time ago with some sponge filters and although I thought they were cycled turns out I had a series of mini cycles occur when adding stock. Next time I also added the HOB sponges for the AC to the brew and had a stable cycle which held up under six discus juvies. The more biological media you can throw into the mix the better. Just don't add any Amquel or Prime, use the AquaNova or something similiar to de-chlorinate.

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie, you won't see nitrites or nitrates for several days until you establish some nitrosomis bacteria that will eat the ammo. Then after awhile you get nitrobacters which eat the nitrites and change them into nitrates. Or something like that. I waited almost 1.5 weeks until I saw nitrites and a few more days unil the nitrates were measurable. You are going to keep the water in the rubbermaids de-chlorinated and heated? I think the bacteria will grow quicker in 79-84 deg. F. I wouldn't take the ammo past 4ppm.
I did this a long time ago with some sponge filters and although I thought they were cycled turns out I had a series of mini cycles occur when adding stock. Next time I also added the HOB sponges for the AC to the brew and had a stable cycle which held up under six discus juvies. The more biological media you can throw into the mix the better. Just don't add any Amquel or Prime, use the AquaNova or something similiar to de-chlorinate.

Thanks Joan, nothing in the container except 6 sponges running. Normal temp in all my tanks without heaters, is 86F so the container may be a little cooler. No lights on the container at all. I have to get my readings today so we'll see how its going. Thanks for the info!

Take care,

Eddie

[Eddie]

Day 2

PH-7.0
Ammonia-4

Just gonna let this roll like it is for now and monitor the rest in a day or 2.

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

The advantage of the fishless cycle is that you don,t introduce unwanted bugs or bacterias from another tank.

It's ok if you use your own sponge but if you borrow one from someone else, this could be risky.




42 days Ricardo? Never heard that one myself. I always heard about 23-25. What I do now is an instant cycle. It involves keeping multiple sponge filters in a tank and when I set up a new tank I take one that established and place it into the new tank and put a new filter into the old tank. There you have yourself an instant cycle. This also works if you know someone that can give you some filter media if you are setting up your first tank.

[Eddie]

Day 3

Added a 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda on day 2 to help stablize the PH

PH - 7.2
Ammonia - 4
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - Did not test

Eddie

[Eddie]

Day 4

PH-7.2
Ammonia-5.0
Nitrite-0

;)

[Disgirl]

Hi Eddie, I see you have high ammo. right now but nothing else. That is due to the high nitrogen fertilizer you started with. But it will eventually show nitrite and then nitrate. May just take longer than the lower one I used, 15-30-15. If you are patient, and I know you are, things will progress just as hoped for :D. I am helping several others with the same thing, via pm, and all theirs are doing quite well! Looks like this big experiment is a success, even with different fertilizers. I see in the stores that most Miracle Gro now is 20-20-20. I feel sure this will work just fine too for those who can only get this formulation.
Barb :)

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie, I see you have high ammo. right now but nothing else. That is due to the high nitrogen fertilizer you started with. But it will eventually show nitrite and then nitrate. May just take longer than the lower one I used, 15-30-15. If you are patient, and I know you are, things will progress just as hoped for :D. I am helping several others with the same thing, via pm, and all theirs are doing quite well! Looks like this big experiment is a success, even with different fertilizers. I see in the stores that most Miracle Gro now is 20-20-20. I feel sure this will work just fine too for those who can only get this formulation.
Barb :)

Sounds good Barb, I am not in a hurry as all my tanks still have antibiotics in them, so no need for nitrification. But once they all get healed up, into the tanks, the cycled filters will go. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

What's going on with the cycle?


Day 4

PH-7.2
Ammonia-5.0
Nitrite-0

;)

[Eddie]

Still no nitrites, ammonia is still at 5. I added a heater to the barrel as it was a bit cool. I know nitrifying bacteria thrive at warmer temps. Maybe some nitrites in the next few days. So today is only day 6.

Eddie

[joanr]

I'm stuck at the Nitrite stage, 6 days now since Nitrites showed up but they are hanging in at around 3-4ppm, nitrates between 5-10. I think this was always the longest stage, but really, this is not as quick for me as for Barb. I think it was the additional nitrogen added at the beginning. Also, reading other various cycle diaries some people keep adding ammo even when they are seeing nitrites, but in small quantities. I don't know if that is necessary or not. I did think this would have cycled by now, but with the pure ammo it can take 6 weeks, and looks like it's going to be the same with the MG for me.

[Disgirl]

Joan, yes it is taking longer for you. Must be the diff. MG. And maybe different ph and temp? Looking at my notes I see that my nitrites were at 10 on day 8, ammo 0 and nitrates were 80. I did a 90%wc the next day when the nitrates hit 160. After that all the numbers kept falling for another week and by the 17th day I had ammo 0, nitrites0 and nitrates 5-10. So, why not try at least 50% wc and see what happens. Then when the nitrite is 0 add a bit of MG and test to see results. It will happen soon I think :D.
Barb

[Eddie]

Yup, looks like the 30-10-10 is not the way to go. I still have zero nitrites and high ammonia, about 5 and today is day 8. :(

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Eddie, how about a 50%wc and see how that brings down the ammo. Then hopefully the nitrite will start to go up, then nitrates. I guess this experiment shows that it is best to start with a low nitrogen fertilizer. I forgot, how much of the MG did you use in how much water? I started mine off with a tablespoon in 60 gal only because Chad suggested that as a starting point.

I added my 10 baby angels to my experiment tank the other day along with the 15 1" rummies. All is well in there, numbers 0,0 and 20 or less. Good luck with your tub o sponges!
Barb :)

[Eddie]

Sounds like a good idea Barb, as the cycle may have stalled out. I had 2 teaspoons total in a 30 gallon rubbermaid. I will change out some water tomorrow and run some more tests. ;)

Thanks

Eddie

[joanr]

Yes Eddie, that's what happened to me with the 24-8-16 mix. I waited almost 2 weeks for something to happen with my ammo at 5+ the whole time. Then I did two 30% water changes 2 days apart and got the ammo to stay down to abiut 3ppm. Within 2 days the ammo was way down and nitrites spiked to deep purple, perhaps off the chart. Tonight I'd say they are at 3ppm or so, but it's hard for me to distinguish between those purple/pinkish shades on the card. I may do a small w/c again tomorrow if the nitrite is still the same and see what happens. By all means get your ammo down to around three, I think you'll then see some progress.

Barb, my PH started to tank a few days ago so I boosted it up a little with some ph-up. It starts out here at 7.5 out of the tap but always drops down to 6.8 to 7.0 within days. Not surprising though, a little added crushed coral would probably help at this point.

[Eddie]

Thanks Joan, it definitely stalled. Man this MG only takes a tiny bit. One box of it will cycle a million tanks! Just finished doing a 50% WC and will check again tomorrow. Ammonia was high into the 8 ppm range.

Eddie

[joanr]

I just added some CCoral and a handful of aqua salt to the tank for some buffering/electrolytes. I think my lower phosphate content in the initial MG dose may have slowed things down, nitrobacters need some phosphates to grow and my nitrate is still so low. I added a small live plant also. Hope this speeds things up. Tonight the Nitrite is around 2ppm, so it's still moving along but at a snails pace. Time for some Fritz-7?? LOL

[Eddie]

I just added some CCoral and a handful of aqua salt to the tank for some buffering/electrolytes. I think my lower phosphate content in the initial MG dose may have slowed things down, nitrobacters need some phosphates to grow and my nitrate is still so low. I added a small live plant also. Hope this speeds things up. Tonight the Nitrite is around 2ppm, so it's still moving along but at a snails pace. Time for some Fritz-7?? LOL

Yup, still have high ammonia, no nitrites. Did another 50% WC today. I will give it a few more days and then it's on to the Japanese super bio. :(

Eddie

[Disgirl]

What is that Eddie? The super bio? My MG cycle worked so fast and well and I sure hoped it would for the rest of you. The 15-30-15 must be the difference.
Barb :)

[Eddie]

What is that Eddie? The super bio? My MG cycle worked so fast and well and I sure hoped it would for the rest of you. The 15-30-15 must be the difference.
Barb :)

Yeah, might have to try it again with the 15-30-15. There is a Japanese product out here called BIO that works like a champ. ;)

Eddie

[joanr]

Can we even find the 15-30-15 mix anymore? Where did you buy yours Barb? I looked in Walmart and Lowes and a few grocery stores and they only had the 24 mix.

[Disgirl]

Well, my fert. is in a box from several years ago. But I see that some other brands of the powered fertilizer are 15-30-15. I don't see why it has to be Miracle Gro. Any brand should do. I also have some Peter's that is the same number. I also think the MG 20-20-20 should work, I see it in local hardware store garden depts. like AceTrueValue here. I may try my 20-20-20 on an empty tank just to see how it does. If I do I will post results. Good luck Joan and Eddie, hope it works soon for you.
Barb :)

[joanr]

Ok, I started the cycle on 8/1/09 with way too much MG, lol, and here's where I'm at today 9/6/09 week 5 or so.

Ammo: 0.0 (don't think they add chloramines here, but will check on Tuesday) Ammo out of the tap is always 0 so probably not.
Nitrites: 2 ppm
Nitrates: 6ppm
ph: steady with CC at about 7.3

I've had to do several w/c's to keep levels under control. So what we have learned here is that the 15-30-15 mix is the best one to use. I expect this cycle should complete by end of this week, hopefully.

Eddie, how's it going with your filters?

[Eddie]

Ok, I started the cycle on 8/1/09 with way too much MG, lol, and here's where I'm at today 9/6/09 week 5 or so.

Ammo: 0.0 (don't think they add chloramines here, but will check on Tuesday) Ammo out of the tap is always 0 so probably not.
Nitrites: 2 ppm
Nitrates: 6ppm
ph: steady with CC at about 7.3

I've had to do several w/c's to keep levels under control. So what we have learned here is that the 15-30-15 mix is the best one to use. I expect this cycle should complete by end of this week, hopefully.

Eddie, how's it going with your filters?

Hey Joan, nothing, Its stalled at 4 ppm of ammonia. Haven't checked it today but will just keep the daily water changes until I can get some nitrites. Hopefully soon! :o

Take care and it looks like yours is working out now.

Eddie

[Daniella]

How is that supposed to work though? It's just fertilizer and does not have the good bacterias needed. How exactly is it supposed to accelerate a cycle?

Any info on that?

I used Superbac to restart my cycle when I had to kill my biofilter with a PP dose last time and it took 11 days to complete in my 120 gallon and took 2 weeks in my 20 gallons. Not sure why it took longer in my small aquarium but well..it's better than wait 5 weeks. I guess even with live bacterias it is not so fast.

Each time I noticed that when the nitrites start to raise, the cycle is nearly completed. Seem that the bacterias that convert nitrites to nitrates grow faster than those that convert ammonia to nitrites. Why is that?


Hey Joan, nothing, Its stalled at 4 ppm of ammonia. Haven't checked it today but will just keep the daily water changes until I can get some nitrites. Hopefully soon! :o

Take care and it looks like yours is working out now.

Eddie

[Eddie]

How is that supposed to work though? It's just fertilizer and does not have the good bacterias needed. How exactly is it supposed to accelerate a cycle?



Daniella, I would not say it does not have the good bacterias needed, and it does not accelerate the cycle. It is a different method for doing a fishless cycle. Read up on using household ammonia for cycling filters. Miracle Grow is being tested for cycling filters, an expirement. The title of the thread states idea, not fact. Many of us are trying this method and several people have finshed cyling their filters in as little as 14 days. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

Oh I understand why you use it but I am just trying to understand how it can speed up a cycle?

Why would this be any different than using pure ammonia?

Does Miracle Grow have live bacterias in it? Also are you sure that those who cycled in 14 days did not add any source of bacterias at all? like an old sponge filter etc..which already had the bacterias on it?

YOu started from scratch with no other source of bacterias and that is maybe why your cycle takes longer? I am just trying to understand how Miracle Grow would work with this.

Not disputing the benifit of it in any way :)



Daniella, I would not say it does not have the good bacterias needed, and it does not accelerate the cycle. It is a different method for doing a fishless cycle. Read up on using household ammonia for cycling filters. Miracle Grow is being tested for cycling filters, an expirement. The title of the thread states idea, not fact. Many of us are trying this method and several people have finshed cyling their filters in as little as 14 days. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

Oh I understand why you use it but I am just trying to understand how it can speed up a cycle?

Why would this be any different than using pure ammonia?

Does Miracle Grow have live bacterias in it? Also are you sure that those who cycled in 14 days did not add any source of bacterias at all? like an old sponge filter etc..which already had the bacterias on it?

YOu started from scratch with no other source of bacterias and that is maybe why your cycle takes longer? I am just trying to understand how Miracle Grow would work with this.

Not disputing the benifit of it in any way :)

Yes, pure Miracle Grow. Does ammonia have live bacterias in it? ;)

[Daniella]

Not sure I understand your reply. Do you mean that Miracle Grow have some sort of dry bacterias in it?

Ammonia does not have any live bacterias in it and is just a food source, but often people add some in a way or another. Like using and old sponge filter or a bit of gravel from a cycled tank. We all have a different environment as well, with some people maybe having more live bacterias present and some much less. Ph is also a factor and TDS, so many factors are affecting this.

I just tought that Miracle grow is just another food source for the bacterias that provide ammonia, just like using pure ammonia so I was wondering how it was different.





Yes, pure Miracle Grow. Does ammonia have live bacterias in it? ;)

[Eddie]

Not sure I understand your reply. Do you mean that Miracle Grow have some sort of dry bacterias in it?

Ammonia does not have any live bacterias in it and is just a food source, but often people add some in a way or another. Like using and old sponge filter or a bit of gravel from a cycled tank. We all have a different environment as well, with some people maybe having more live bacterias present and some much less. Ph is also a factor and TDS, so many factors are affecting this.

I just tought that Miracle grow is just another food source for the bacterias that provide ammonia, just like using pure ammonia so I was wondering how it was different.

Having presence of ammonia (ammonia source) is how the cycle starts. People who use household ammonia to cycle a filter from scratch are not adding anything but ammonia to the tank. Brand new filter media, nothing that had any bacteria colony prior, simply ammonia.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Not sure I understand your reply. Do you mean that Miracle Grow have some sort of dry bacterias in it?

Ammonia does not have any live bacterias in it and is just a food source, but often people add some in a way or another. Like using and old sponge filter or a bit of gravel from a cycled tank. We all have a different environment as well, with some people maybe having more live bacterias present and some much less. Ph is also a factor and TDS, so many factors are affecting this.

I just tought that Miracle grow is just another food source for the bacterias that provide ammonia, just like using pure ammonia so I was wondering how it was different.

I read from their site:

"Miracle-Gro® is strictly a fertilizer; it does not contain any pesticides. Further, the product is made from food-grade quality ingredients."

According to what I could find, the ingredients are as follows:

Ammonium phosphate
Urea
Potassium chloride
Boric acid
Copper sulfate
Iron EDTA
Magnesium EDTA
Urea phosphate
Zinc sulfate
Sodium molybdate

The percentage breakdown is as follows:
Total Nitrogen: 15%
9.2% urea nitrogen
5.8% ammonium nitrogen

Available phosphate: 30%;
Boron: .02%;
Soluble Potash: 15%;
Copper: .07%;
Iron: .15%;
Manganese: .05%;
Molybdenum: .00005%;
Zinc: .06%





Yes, pure Miracle Grow. Does ammonia have live bacterias in it? ;)

[Eddie]

Not sure I understand your reply. Do you mean that Miracle Grow have some sort of dry bacterias in it?

Ammonia does not have any live bacterias in it and is just a food source, but often people add some in a way or another. Like using and old sponge filter or a bit of gravel from a cycled tank. We all have a different environment as well, with some people maybe having more live bacterias present and some much less. Ph is also a factor and TDS, so many factors are affecting this.

I just tought that Miracle grow is just another food source for the bacterias that provide ammonia, just like using pure ammonia so I was wondering how it was different.

I read from their site:

"Miracle-Gro® is strictly a fertilizer; it does not contain any pesticides. Further, the product is made from food-grade quality ingredients."

According to what I could find, the ingredients are as follows:

Ammonium phosphate
Urea
Potassium chloride
Boric acid
Copper sulfate
Iron EDTA
Magnesium EDTA
Urea phosphate
Zinc sulfate
Sodium molybdate

The percentage breakdown is as follows:
Total Nitrogen: 15%
9.2% urea nitrogen
5.8% ammonium nitrogen

Available phosphate: 30%;
Boron: .02%;
Soluble Potash: 15%;
Copper: .07%;
Iron: .15%;
Manganese: .05%;
Molybdenum: .00005%;
Zinc: .06%

LMAO, no they don't Daniella. This is why I am telling you, read up on fishless cycling a filter using pure ammonia. There is no bacteria added. Adding any filter media from another tank is not doing a fishless cycle. Defeats the purpose. ;)

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/fishless_cycle.shtml

Eddie

[Daniella]

So again with my question, how does Miracle grow is different from using pure ammonia to do a fishless cycle?




LMAO, no they don't Daniella. This is why I am telling you, read up on fishless cycling a filter using pure ammonia. There is no bacteria added. Adding any filter media from another tank is not doing a fishless cycle. Defeats the purpose. ;)

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/fishless_cycle.shtml

Eddie

[Eddie]

So again with my question, how does Miracle grow is different from using pure ammonia to do a fishless cycle?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71625

[joanr]

So again with my question, how does Miracle grow is different from using pure ammonia to do a fishless cycle?

I think you are asking about the benefits of using the MG compared to just pure ammo. It's my understanding that the MG contains elements that would quicken the cycle and help the bacteria to colonize faster. Like the phosphate content for example. It does not contain either type of live bacteria needed for nitrification, just the ammo and other trace minerals and elements.

Our test was done using different mixes of the MG formula, some are 15-30-15, or 24-8-16, 30-10-30 or whatever. Eddie and I both overloaded with Ammo and stalled out our cycles. I didn't realize the mix was different until I read the mix strenght on the box. The results varied, and even though Barb had more Nitrates at the middle of her cycle than necessary, her formula provided the fastest result. So, if you do try this get the 15-30-15 mix.

[April]

very interesting read. how would it work with plants in the tank? it has everything plants like..i have never fishless cycled..but..this sounds interesting. thanks for both of you taking the time to try out als idea and report all your findings.

[joanr]

Hiya April, nice to see you are still active here, haven't been onboard since '06, a long battle with hubby's colon cancer but he pulled through and we are both anxious to start a new discus tank. So sad to see that Barb Newell passed on, we three used to have some lively chats! Anyhow, I think that the few plants that Barb started out with died from the excess nitrites etc, they just didn't make it through the cycle process. But don't planted tanks kinda naturally cycle the tank without all the fuss? I don't know, it's always been BB tanks with me. I don't like cycling this way, I would always add a cycled filter from an existing tank to start a new tank, didn't have to worry about the safe source problems, but all in all if I hadn't made the intial mistake with the formula mix I think it would have gone a lot quicker than a pure ammo cycle.

[Disgirl]

very interesting read. how would it work with plants in the tank? it has everything plants like..i have never fishless cycled..but..this sounds interesting. thanks for both of you taking the time to try out als idea and report all your findings.

Well, for a few days I did have a bit of cabomba and a couple pieces of anubias, all had been in a weak bleach solution first to kill any snails or eggs and any bacteria would also have been killed. But when my nitrates got to 160 the cabomba melted away over night, the next day I did a 90% wc as Chad suggested (he advised me along the way) and took out all plant remains. As the ammonia went down, the nitrites went up, the nitrates then went way up, then ammo none, nitrites none and nitrates under control at 20 or less. I now have a cycled tank with angelfish and a few plants doing great. Daniella, this is just a different way to do a fishless cycle. Ammonia is still fine but this is an alternative. Neither has any bacteria to start things out. As in almost all aspects of discus keeping there are many ways to accomplish the same goal.
Barb

[April]

hello Joan. im so glad to hear your husband pulled through. i know you had a hard time with him.
glad to hear your able to get back into discus again.
i do the same..have extra sponges on hand. but when i import..i pp all my tanks and sponges..we have the advantage here of our ph being below 7 so our ammonia is not harmful. so im able to just rebuild with daily wcs and get the filter back up to cycled . of course.with large wcs ..a filter is barely necessary .
harder water areas of course need a better cycled filter.

[Paige H]

Hi everyone!

I've just started cycling my tank using ammonia instead of fish. I'll post my results when the cycle is complete... it all seems to be going frightening smoothly.

I did put some of my filter media in a healthy established tank and added that when I started putting ammonia in the new tank, and I think that's what's making things go so smoothly.

My only concern is that I didn't think I was supposed to do a water change during the cycle, but it hasn't even been a week yet, and my nitrates are going to be through the roof... will it interfere and delay the cycle if I do a large water change?

Thanks!

Paige

[Eddie]

Hi everyone!

I've just started cycling my tank using ammonia instead of fish. I'll post my results when the cycle is complete... it all seems to be going frightening smoothly.

I did put some of my filter media in a healthy established tank and added that when I started putting ammonia in the new tank, and I think that's what's making things go so smoothly.

My only concern is that I didn't think I was supposed to do a water change during the cycle, but it hasn't even been a week yet, and my nitrates are going to be through the roof... will it interfere and delay the cycle if I do a large water change?

Thanks!

Paige

Using media from another established tank can help out the cycle but you can contaminate the new tank with whatever was in the old tank. This is one of the reasons why people use the fishless/ammonia cycle. Pure ammonia, brand new filter..all completely new equipment. This eliminates cross contamination. ;)

Eddie

[joanr]

My only concern is that I didn't think I was supposed to do a water change during the cycle, but it hasn't even been a week yet, and my nitrates are going to be through the roof... will it interfere and delay the cycle if I do a large water change?

Thanks!

Paige

You won't need to do a w/c if your test readings are within reason. I had to do several w/c's because I added too much MG and the ammo and then the nitrites were off the chart. Nitrates you can take care of with the large w/c you have to do at the end of the cycle, but you'll need to test and let us know where you're at with at least ammo, nitrite, nitrate and ph.:o I've read about three different methods of doing the pure ammo cycle and have heard of people cycling with dead shrimp, flake food and other forms of organic material that will break down into ammonia.

[Daniella]

Probably also there is something else hat is responsible for a faster or a slower cycle. for exemple, those bacterias come from somewhere and they should not be in the water where we have clorine and treatment. So basicaly people who have more ambiant load of there bacterias will probably have a faster cycle and those who have less in their environement will have a slower cycle, no matter what they use to start it.

Those that use rain water should have a faster cycle probably since there should be some nitrifying bacterias in the outside environement that goes in the rain water.

So basicaly what help in MG is the phosphate content. Thanks for the explanation on that.




I think you are asking about the benefits of using the MG compared to just pure ammo. It's my understanding that the MG contains elements that would quicken the cycle and help the bacteria to colonize faster. Like the phosphate content for example. It does not contain either type of live bacteria needed for nitrification, just the ammo and other trace minerals and elements.

Our test was done using different mixes of the MG formula, some are 15-30-15, or 24-8-16, 30-10-30 or whatever. Eddie and I both overloaded with Ammo and stalled out our cycles. I didn't realize the mix was different until I read the mix strenght on the box. The results varied, and even though Barb had more Nitrates at the middle of her cycle than necessary, her formula provided the fastest result. So, if you do try this get the 15-30-15 mix.

[Eddie]

So basicaly what help in MG is the phosphate content. Thanks for the explanation on that.

Actually, that is just an assumption, this is still in test mode. The nitrogen also affects the cycle. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

Probably that are many things affecting the cycle process but I guess the main thing is how many live bacterias are present in the environment to begin with. That's my guess as to why some go faster and some go slower.

So yours failed because your ammonia was too high?

How is it going with your sponge filter cycling?


Actually, that is just an assumption, this is still in test mode. The nitrogen also affects the cycle. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

Probably that are many things affecting the cycle process but I guess the main thing is how many live bacterias are present in the environment to begin with. That's my guess as to why some go faster and some go slower.

So yours failed because your ammonia was too high?

How is it going with your sponge filter cycling?

Steady high ammonia, maybe to much nitrogen to fast. I don't have the time now since I am leaving on Saturday. Guess I'll have to go with the trusty old SafeStart for now. I'll continue this one again down the road with something in the 15-30-15 range. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

You are lucky to be able to get safestart. I cannot get it in Canada. I can get Superbac but that cost a fortune and it is not 48 hours, rather 11 to 14 days to cycle.


Steady high ammonia, maybe to much nitrogen to fast. I don't have the time now since I am leaving on Saturday. Guess I'll have to go with the trusty old SafeStart for now. I'll continue this one again down the road with something in the 15-30-15 range. ;)

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Steady high ammonia, maybe to much nitrogen to fast. I don't have the time now since I am leaving on Saturday. Guess I'll have to go with the trusty old SafeStart for now. I'll continue this one again down the road with something in the 15-30-15 range. ;)

Eddie

Eddie, out of curiosity, I am soon going to try cycling a bare tank, no gravel or anything but water, with a sponge filter and MG 20-20-20 just to see how it compares with the 15-30-15 MG I used before. I will let you all know how it does. Hope to start it up next week. I guess I should start a new thread for it.
Barb :)

[joanr]

OMG, there is yet another mix of this stuff? 20-20-20? LOL. I'm seeing a little more progress daily, it's cycling but still slowly. I quess in the end I'll have one heck of a colonization built up.
Ammo: 0
Nitrites: 1
Nitrates: between 6-9, hard to tell the shade of orangish yellowish

So, I'm starting to see some movement of the nitrites to nitrates, should be another 4-5 days. If not I'm going to break down and pour a gallon of useless Cycle into the tank. nah...

[Disgirl]

Yep, fertilizers come in all sorts of formulas! I have at least 6 different ones. I just thought, maybe I should try some Fish Emulsion fertilizer someday. It is made of "pureed" fish and is a very good fertilizer when mixed with water. Smells bad though. I will have to see if it is sterilized so no bacteria would be in it to start. Al put all sorts of ideas in my head, using fertilizers to start cycling :D.
Barb

[Paige H]

You won't need to do a w/c if your test readings are within reason. I had to do several w/c's because I added too much MG and the ammo and then the nitrites were off the chart. Nitrates you can take care of with the large w/c you have to do at the end of the cycle, but you'll need to test and let us know where you're at with at least ammo, nitrite, nitrate and ph.:o I've read about three different methods of doing the pure ammo cycle and have heard of people cycling with dead shrimp, flake food and other forms of organic material that will break down into ammonia.

My ammonia is coming down. I've been adding some daily now to keep from running out. My nitrites are peaking now, about 3.3 mg/l, but it was the nitrates that were worrying me. They were off the chart. I did change about 50%, but they are back to where they were. I was concerned about the algae on my plants. It was taking over... but I might just let it run its course now. I'll just have to keep the plants clean... see how it goes from there. As soon as the nitrites and ammonia stay at 0, I'll do a huge water change and add some otos!

Thank you,

Paige

ps - I forgot - my pH is about 7.2... I'll be starting to add peat granules as soon as I can find them.

[joanr]

When all is said and done, I've never cycled a tank 100% with the "fishless cycle". I've always had to add some bacteria source or even put a few fish in, and then do big water changes until the colonies were better established. Even with params at "0" the introduction of a few fish, food and other solids would spike the levels, but not to dangerous readings, mostly nitrites at 0.25. Established tanks seem to take months, but at least this way we are sparing starter fish the torture. I never had planted tanks, and the addition of live plants seems to be so beneficial, I'm going to do my next discus tank with some plants in pots or behind a retaining wall of some sort.

[Eddie]

When all is said and done, I've never cycled a tank 100% with the "fishless cycle". I've always had to add some bacteria source or even put a few fish in, and then do big water changes until the colonies were better established. Even with params at "0" the introduction of a few fish, food and other solids would spike the levels, but not to dangerous readings, mostly nitrites at 0.25. Established tanks seem to take months, but at least this way we are sparing starter fish the torture. I never had planted tanks, and the addition of live plants seems to be so beneficial, I'm going to do my next discus tank with some plants in pots or behind a retaining wall of some sort.

Yeah, I love anubias tied to anything. Now that I have some plecos, the manzanita branches can be put back in. ;)

Eddie

[champak]

@DANIELLA
The possibility of MG cycled faster than pure ammonia cycle is i think may be because of it not only adds ammonia but also nitrite in to the tank you can check this chart drafted by KAREN:-

Ok I just want to quickly share my experience with the Miracle Gro cycling plan:

7-25: Added 1/2 tsp Miracle Gro to 40g tank

7-27:

Ammonia: .5
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 5

7-28:

Ammonia: .25-.5
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 5+

7-29:

Ammonia: 0-.25
Nitrite: 1-2
Nitrate: 10

7-30:

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 2
Nitrate: 10

8-1: Added 1/2 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25
Nitrate: 40

Performed 50% W/C


8-2:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: .25-.5
Nitrate: 20

8-3: Added 1 tsp of Miracle Gro after test results on this date

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

8-5:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40+

Performed 90% W/C

8-6:

Added 5 4" Discus
Added salt

8-7:

2-3 feedings of a cube or two of FBW
no water change

8-8:

2 feedings of two cubes of FBW
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20

75% W/C

And all is well.

So all in all it took 11-12 days to completely cycle the tank. I only ever got my ammonia levels up to .5 that I noticed, although I didn't test the first couple days after originally adding the Miracle Gro. But, even with not waterchanging after their first full day in the tank, the levels were within reason. I'd call it a success and will definitely use this method again if I need get another tank up.
__________________
-Karen

so the reason is that not only the ammonia consuming bacteria grow simualtaneously, nitrite converting bacterias also grow in same period of time.
Deepesh

[fishorama]

This is an interesting method.

champak- which MG did you use?

[Eddie]

This is an interesting method.

champak- which MG did you use?

Those were actually Karen's results, not Champak's. Karen used 24-8-16


Eddie

[fishorama]

Oops, too early for clear reading. TY

[joanr]

Ok, cycle is yet again stalled at Nitrite stage between 1-2ppm for the last 1.5 week. I'm headed over to Petsmart to get a bottle of SafeStart. At this point, it coudn't hurt. Since I haven't added any more MG to the tank since the initial dose I figured I needed to get some sort of ammo source in there to keep things rolling along, so I added about 1/2 teaspoon of the 15-30-15 mix which BTW, I found out in my shed, and the ammo was taken care of by this morning. So it's just stuck with Nitrite removal. I'll let you all know how the SafeStart works. I wish they still had the Bio-Spira for freshwater, only now for saltwater. I'm gonna put 1/2 bottle in today, check levels tommorrow and maybe do a 90% w/c tomorrow and add the rest of the bottle. Then Monday or Tuesday some Danios or Rasboras.

[joanr]

Can't find SafeStart anywhere except online, will have to go with the Seachem Stability for now. Results in a few days.

[Disgirl]

Good luck Joan! I am getting ready, as soon as my sponges arrive, to start a second experiment using 20-20-20 MG to see how it does. This is definitely an experiment still in progress isn't it? And my 3rd experiment will be using Fish Emulsion fertilizer which is 5-1-1, a pureed stinky brown liquid made from wild salt water fish. I have to find out if it is sterile with no bad bacteria or parasites in it. Do any of you know? Plants love it!
Barb :)

[joanr]

Remember when I was joking around about putting in the Rid-X for septic tanks that has the munching bacteria in the TV Commercial? Well today when I was reading about the Bio-Spira on one of the tetra groups, a guy in there swears by one of those septic tank products. I'll try to find that thread again and tell you the name of the stuff. He says it works better than any of the "cycle" products.

I think we know what not to do with the MG by what happened to me. Taking the tank to ammo 5ppm with the MG will not work, leaves way too much nitrite to be removed, even with several w/c's the nitrites persisted. Today before the w/c I had about 1 ppm. After a 90% w/c I still had .5ppm an hour later. So in went the Stability. Let's see what happens. Sure about that fish emulsion?? It might stink up the house. LOL

I found it on Badman's Tropical Fish Group, here:
"Yes, some of the claims I read were that Septo-Bac not only accelerates the new tank cycling process, but can be used to control ammonia/nitrite spikes in established tanks".

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=10810.0

[Eddie]

Hope it all works out Joan. My cycle was stalled and still stalled when I left. I did a 50% WC and left town. If it doesn't cycle, I'm not worried about it. Got a huge bottle of SafeStart if I need it. :D

Take care,

Eddie

[River Studio]

Hi All,

We are just on the final stage of cycling a Juwel Lido 120 with 15-30-15 MG and it seems to have worked out very well over a 14 day period.

We now have Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 50

We have been in Italy for 10 days and returned to find all the readings levelled out more or less where we hoped they would be. We will do a 100% water change today and keep the filtration matured with 5 blue tetras we have had for a while.

As an experiment it does seem that MG is worth using but maybe not more than pure amonia, but possibly easier to get hold of?

Our preferred method is Seachem Stability and introducing fish after a few days. This stuff really does work very well. A friend is using Tera Safe Start and it seems to be very similar. We haven't seen any high Nitrite spikes when using Stability and everything seems to run very smoothly.

We just thought we would chip in with our experience and thanks to everyone for a great forum. Very lively and interesting.

Dave & Caroline
UK.

[brewmaster15]

Hi All,

We are just on the final stage of cycling a Juwel Lido 120 with 15-30-15 MG and it seems to have worked out very well over a 14 day period.

We now have Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 50

We have been in Italy for 10 days and returned to find all the readings levelled out more or less where we hoped they would be. We will do a 100% water change today and keep the filtration matured with 5 blue tetras we have had for a while.

As an experiment it does seem that MG is worth using but maybe not more than pure amonia, but possibly easier to get hold of?

Our preferred method is Seachem Stability and introducing fish after a few days. This stuff really does work very well. A friend is using Tera Safe Start and it seems to be very similar. We haven't seen any high Nitrite spikes when using Stability and everything seems to run very smoothly.

We just thought we would chip in with our experience and thanks to everyone for a great forum. Very lively and interesting.

Dave & Caroline
UK.

Thanks Dave and Caroline!:)

[River Studio]

Thanks Dave and Caroline!:)

You are very welcome. This forum is great and there's so much information on here....wonderful stuff.

Dave & Caroline.

[joanr]

Glad to hear it went well for you! The 15-30-15 is definately the best mixture we have found to work as yet. What level of ammo did you start out with after the initial dose?

BTW, the Stability is working nicely for me, only a trace of nitrite left after 24 hrs so I put 4 zebra danios and 4 barbs in there late last night. Hardy fish, and the Tiger Barbs never stop for second. They make me very nervous but they are not going to stay for long....

[joanr]

Anybody read anymore about the Septo-bac? I'd have no idea if it would be toxic or not, but I'm going to find out more about using it this week. Al, have you heard about this stuff?

[River Studio]

Glad to hear it went well for you! The 15-30-15 is definately the best mixture we have found to work as yet. What level of ammo did you start out with after the initial dose?

BTW, the Stability is working nicely for me, only a trace of nitrite left after 24 hrs so I put 4 zebra danios and 4 barbs in there late last night. Hardy fish, and the Tiger Barbs never stop for second. They make me very nervous but they are not going to stay for long....

If I remember the ammonia was 3 or 4ppm but just before we left for Italy the nitrites went through the roof and the nitrates were climbing stadily. When we got back everything was reading clear.

We did a 100% water change today and plopped the blue tetras in the tank and they are as happy as can be. I guess there might be a fair sized colony of beneficial bacteria in the filter so I am not expecting any spikes at all. I will post if there is anything worth noting.

I really don't like the blue tetras, very fast moving and quite aggressive towards each other. Maybe they need to be in a larger shoal to calm down (we only have 5) in a Juwel 120L Lido tank. The tetras will be moved again in a few days because we are just about to use that tank for some discus.

The Seachem Stability really is good stuff. I wonder what would happen if you used Stability part way through the MG process. Maybe it would speed everything up? Maybe it would turn into a bio-soup!:rolleyes2:

Nice talking with you,

Dave & Caroline.

[joanr]

The Seachem Stability really is good stuff. I wonder what would happen if you used Stability part way through the MG process. Maybe it would speed everything up? Maybe it would turn into a bio-soup!:rolleyes2:

Nice talking with you,

Dave & Caroline.

That's basically what I had to do yesterday. My nitrites were hanging in there for weeks and just wouldn't get below 1ppm. So I decided I needed a little boost to get over that hump. And it worked like a charm. I will continue to use it over the next 7 days like it says on the bottle. Not seeing any blooms from this stuff, no soup yet!!

I am going to do this next time I cycle a tank, which will be for my next batch of discus. I will use the 15-30-15 mix, bring the ammo level to about 3ppm, wait 2 weeks and then add daily doses of either the SafeStart or Stability to speed things up and insure a good colony. Sounds like a plan.
Nice to have you folks on-board!

[River Studio]

That's basically what I had to do yesterday. My nitrites were hanging in there for weeks and just wouldn't get below 1ppm. So I decided I needed a little boost to get over that hump. And it worked like a charm. I will continue to use it over the next 7 days like it says on the bottle. Not seeing any blooms from this stuff, no soup yet!!

I am going to do this next time I cycle a tank, which will be for my next batch of discus. I will use the 15-30-15 mix, bring the ammo level to about 3ppm, wait 2 weeks and then add daily doses of either the SafeStart or Stability to speed things up and insure a good colony. Sounds like a plan.
Nice to have you folks on-board!

I would be inclined to just use Stability and Prime and keep an eye on the water changes every day. There's no doubt that stability is very efficient and my next tank cycle is going to be back with Stability. I like the fact that the MG works but we have also proved that Stability works on its own so I guess it's a matter of personal choice.

Nice to know that cycling a tank can be speeded up though, and with stuff like Stability and SafeStart around there's more possibilities than ever. MG is definitely the cheapest option and at 14 days to get a heavily cycled tank which will cope with just about anything is very good news.

Thanks for the welcome. We are off discus buying tomorrow. I wonder what I will come back with? So many choices these days but we have some Golden Albino's and Altum Snakeskins on reserve and the most beautiful Penang Eruption that didn't quite erupt! He has less spots than normal but has the most fabulous lilac and red markings with fewer spots on the body.....most people would pass him/her over but it is a visually stunning fish so we are going to give it a home.

We have 4 Juwel Lido 120L tanks for juveniles and pairs and a Juwel 300L for water storage/changes sited in the garage.

Keep in touch,

Dave & Caroline

[joanr]

Thanks for the welcome. We are off discus buying tomorrow. I wonder what I will come back with? So many choices these days but we have some Golden Albino's and Altum Snakeskins on reserve and the most beautiful Penang Eruption that didn't quite erupt! He has less spots than normal but has the most fabulous lilac and red markings with fewer spots on the body.....most people would pass him/her over but it is a visually stunning fish so we are going to give it a home.

Please post some pics when you get them home and acclimated, we all love seeing everyone's new babies! :)

[River Studio]

Please post some pics when you get them home and acclimated, we all love seeing everyone's new babies! :)

Sure thing. We just got a call to delay picking up our discus. Such a shame but now set for Wednesday. Oh well, a cycled tank with nothing in it should be ok for a few days.....we hope.

Dave & Caroline.

[Disgirl]

Hi Dave and Caroline, welcome to SD! Glad to hear the MG worked for you too. I found that after my tank was cycled it was a couple weeks until I put fish in. Every 3 or 4 days I added 1/2 tsp of MG to feed the bacteria. It worked well. You might want to put in a bit today or tomorrow to feed them until you get those beautiful discus you described. Please let us see them sometime!
Barb :)

[River Studio]

Hi Dave and Caroline, welcome to SD! Glad to hear the MG worked for you too. I found that after my tank was cycled it was a couple weeks until I put fish in. Every 3 or 4 days I added 1/2 tsp of MG to feed the bacteria. It worked well. You might want to put in a bit today or tomorrow to feed them until you get those beautiful discus you described. Please let us see them sometime!
Barb :)

Hi Barb and many thanks for the warm welcome.

I have the tail end of a bottle of Stability so I might use that up on a daily basis to keep the bacteria count up. If Wednesday gets changed, I have a back up plan and I will definitely be going shopping.....:)

Dave & Caroline

[Disgirl]

Sounds like a good plan! You must be looking forward to those new fish!
Barb :)

[River Studio]

Sounds like a good plan! You must be looking forward to those new fish!
Barb :)

Yes we certainly are. We have been reading as much as we can on the various strains etc and we were thinking of going for German bred discus but we have made a committment to buy some Asian discus so we hope everything works out well.

We have heard/read that the German bred fish are tougher and prefer harder water we have in Europe so water changes are less fiddly. We will just have to see how things pan out and we will play an active part in this forum, without being pests.

Thanks again for the input.

Dave & Caroline.

[River Studio]

Hi,

We picked up 4 Golden Albino's last night from Paul & Ange at Discus South in Hampshire UK, and they have settled in rather well. Just fed them their second feeding, a light feeding of bloodworm and this time they scoffed it up like gluttons. They didn't seem that interested this morning.

We will probably do 25% to 35% daily water changes over the next couple of weeks to make sure the filter unit can keep up with the increased bio-load.

We are also going to cut down on the lighting because the Juwel unit has the new T5 tubes and the discus really don't like the light levels.

We will post some pictures when the discus are fully settled in and we have time to do them.

Thanks again,

Dave & Caroline.

[Disgirl]

Good luck with your new fish and be sure to let us see them one of these days! I am glad your tank is cycled and ready for them! I am about to experiment with yet another way to do a cycle. Will start a new thread for it.
Barb :)

[River Studio]

Good luck with your new fish and be sure to let us see them one of these days! I am glad your tank is cycled and ready for them! I am about to experiment with yet another way to do a cycle. Will start a new thread for it.
Barb :)

Hi Barb,

That sounds interesting. Let me know what you are planning, and how things develop. I have a slightly cloudy water issue this evening but the discus seem very happy.

[joanr]

Hi,

We picked up 4 Golden Albino's last night from Paul & Ange at Discus South in Hampshire UK, and they have settled in rather well.
We will post some pictures when the discus are fully settled in and we have time to do them.



Congrats on the new arrivals! I love the GA's, can't wait to see them!

On the cycling issues I've had another setback with my 55 gal. I bought the Stability and after the first big dose the nitrites went down to .25 or less. But now tonight they are back up to almost 1 ppm. Honestly this is one stubborn cycle. Ordered the Safestart from DFS, hope it works a tad better. The few danios and barbs in there are not showing signs of any stress or suffering yet, so hopefully the Stability is helping out somewhat while this tank does it thing. I don't want to do any more massive w/c's cause I think I need to let it all brew for awhile. You'd think some company by now would have an instant cycle product that actually worked as advertised.

[Disgirl]

Aw geeze! I almost feel like it is my fault Joan. So sorry it isn't working for you like it did for me. As soon as I get my new sponge order, none at lfs around here, I am going to try cycling a 20 gal with sponge using Fish Emulsion fertilizer like I mentioned the other day. The smell will go away in a day or less. Maybe this will be yet another way to do it. I will start a new thread for it. Hope yours moves along better.
Barb :)

[River Studio]

Congrats on the new arrivals! I love the GA's, can't wait to see them!

On the cycling issues I've had another setback with my 55 gal. I bought the Stability and after the first big dose the nitrites went down to .25 or less. But now tonight they are back up to almost 1 ppm. Honestly this is one stubborn cycle. Ordered the Safestart from DFS, hope it works a tad better. The few danios and barbs in there are not showing signs of any stress or suffering yet, so hopefully the Stability is helping out somewhat while this tank does it thing. I don't want to do any more massive w/c's cause I think I need to let it all brew for awhile. You'd think some company by now would have an instant cycle product that actually worked as advertised.

Hi Joan,

When we next cycle a tank we will use Seachem Stability and dose as instructed on the bottle. After a week we will introduce the discus and things should be fine. I am not sure how it works but Stability seems to lock up the harmful amonia/nitrite and allow the development of the bio-filter by introducing bacteria. It sounds implausible but it actually works and the fish show no signs of stress.

One thing we noticed was that even though Nitrites are registering on the test kit (Hagen) there's no reaction from the fish.

If the MG process gets 'stuck' it mnay be best to do a 50% water change and a second 50% water change a couple of days later. If you have Stability of SafeStart, dose it after the second water change and see where things are.

A friend of ours has just set up a tank with SafeStart and introduced the discus after 3 days. 4 weeks later still no problems and he now has zero readings on Amonia and Nitrites. Water changes take care of the Nitrates.

Sorry for the long post but maybe something here helps.

Dave & Caroline.

[joanr]

Thanks, wasn't sure what to make of the Nitrite readings, but if the stuff is locking up the NO2 that would account for not seeing any stress from the fish, but not sure what nitrite poisening would look like since I've never had fish in a tank with nitrites registering 1 pmm or under. Ammo is not a problem, it's "0". Nitrates are staying at safe levels also. Unlike keeping Discus, I do not intend on doing daily w/c's for a small group of little tetras so they are at the mercy of the Stability for now...I changed out 75% of the water several times now, think I'll just let it all brew for a week and see what happens.

[joanr]

Aw geeze! I almost feel like it is my fault Joan. So sorry it isn't working for you like it did for me. As soon as I get my new sponge order, none at lfs around here, I am going to try cycling a 20 gal with sponge using Fish Emulsion fertilizer like I mentioned the other day. The smell will go away in a day or less. Maybe this will be yet another way to do it. I will start a new thread for it. Hope yours moves along better.
Barb :)

Sorry, missed this post by several days! No it's not your fault at all! I'm the one that insisted on original dose to take it up to 5ppm, not you! Anyhow, it is fully cycled now and the little tetra's are happy campers, no deaths. Next time using the 15-30-15 and a bottle of SafeStart, should be real quick....lol

[Disgirl]

Sounds good Joan! Glad to hear your fish are doing well, mine too!
Barb :)

[joanr]

Sounds good Joan! Glad to hear your fish are doing well, mine too!
Barb :)
That's great Barb, let us know when you try the fish emulsion. I've run into a few threads on some other tropical forums where folks are using the Rid-X stuff to cycle. I was only joking about that! I'll search some more and see if I can find some more convincing data. Right now it's just a few snips about " I know a guy that cycles with Rid-X", but no hard data or methodology. I guess the first thing would be to read the list of ingredients. I don't think it would have the ammo, but maybe it would be useful to speed the nitrite part of the cycle.

[Disgirl]

Joan, is Rid-X the stuff people pour down the drain when they have a septic tank to "grow good bacteria" to get things going in the septic tank?
Barb :)

[joanr]

Yes it is! Also a brand called Septic-X. All bacteria that munch waste. I'm going to follow up when I learn more about using this stuff for cycling tanks. Sounds like another experiment is in the works...lol.

[Disgirl]

OK you do Rid-x and I will do the fish emulsion fert! I am up for yet another experiment! I start it tomorrow, 20 gal tank and large sponge, water, nothing else except a tsp of the FE, as it is called by gardeners.
Barb :D

[joanr]

OK you do Rid-x and I will do the fish emulsion fert! I am up for yet another experiment! I start it tomorrow, 20 gal tank and large sponge, water, nothing else except a tsp of the FE, as it is called by gardeners.
Barb :D
There's just something icky about using Rid-X, can't imagine why....lol. But it would be far cheaper than the bottles of Safestart, but don't know yet if it has the right type of bacteria for our purposes. If anything it would be a cycle booster, not a cycle starter like the MG or pure ammo.

[Matt in Houston]

24-8-16 miracle grow dosed last night...2 heaping tbl spoons in a 210 gallon tank gave me ~3 ppm ammonia this morning.

Filtration is an Eheim 2180 @ 85 degrees f. May hook up the cpr cr3000 wet/dry tonight as well.

I also added a few floating plants from an established tank. I will update as things progress!

[Disgirl]

Good luck Matt. Just be sure to keep an eye on the nitrates when they start to go way up. When mine got over 100, before a big wc, my plants melted. That was the cabomba. Java moss, the only other plant I had was fine though. Keep posting about your results!
Barb :)

[joanr]

24-8-16 miracle grow dosed last night...2 heaping tablespoons in a 210 gallon tank gave me ~3 ppm ammonia this morning.

Filtration is an Eheim 2180 @ 85 degrees f. May hook up the cpr cr3000 wet/dry tonight as well.

I also added a few floating plants from an established tank. I will update as things progress!

Matt, that's the formula mix I used, and it did take longer than the 15-30-15 mix. Just don't add any more MG or you will get a real long Nitrite stage. I think that when the Nitrites show up instead of waiting out the cycle a bottle of Turbo 700 or SafeStart could be added at that point to speed things along. Are you the Matt that did the Watermelon paint job on your tank? If so, did you post pics of that color yet?

[joanr]

Good luck Matt. Just be sure to keep an eye on the nitrates when they start to go way up. When mine got over 100, before a big wc, my plants melted. That was the cabomba. Java moss, the only other plant I had was fine though. Keep posting about your results!
Barb :)

Barb, I don't think he will see as much Nitrate as you did, different phosphate amount in the mixes, after dumping way too much of the 24-8-16 into my 50 gal, Nitrates were still always at a minimum and now after completion they are hanging in there at about 5-7 ppm.

[Disgirl]

Yes, I see what you mean Joan, about the Nitrates. Thanks for the info.
Barb:)

[Matt in Houston]

Matt, that's the formula mix I used, and it did take longer than the 15-30-15 mix. Just don't add any more MG or you will get a real long Nitrite stage. I think that when the Nitrites show up instead of waiting out the cycle a bottle of Turbo 700 or SafeStart could be added at that point to speed things along. Are you the Matt that did the Watermelon paint job on your tank? If so, did you post pics of that color yet?

Sounds good thanks for the info...


Yes my tank is watermelon now....I love it. I have been busy plumbing in filters but when I get home from work tonight I will take the time to post some pics.

[joanr]

Thanks, looking forward to seeing that color, haven't decided what color to use on my 55gal yet, depends on what strains I end up ordering next month.

[Eddie]

Well, thought the cycle might have been complete but instead, the ammonia is reading zero and the nitrites are reading OFF the charts high. I did a water change so we'll see in a few days. It will be interesting to see how the cycled filters handle the load I put on them in the long run. ;)

Eddie

[joanr]

Well, thought the cycle might have been complete but instead, the ammonia is reading zero and the nitrites are reading OFF the charts high. I did a water change so we'll see in a few days. It will be interesting to see how the cycled filters handle the load I put on them in the long run. ;)

Eddie

W/C's didn't help much with my 50 gal, Nitrites would go down for a day or so and then spike back up. I threw in a bottle of Stability over a week's time and the tank finally cycled, all params holding steady for 5 days now, no high Nitrates, got about 15 various tetras in there now. I think we just added too much MG formula. But you've got wrigglers! How cool is that! Any luck with the Blue pair yet?

All, still can't find much about using the Rid-X. Only one post that says to put a cup of the stuff in 1 gal of de-clorinated water, mix well, let the solids drop to bottom and pour the liquid into tank. I'm going to try it one of these days, just not on the tank I'm going to cycle for my future Discus.

[Eddie]

W/C's didn't help much with my 50 gal, Nitrites would go down for a day or so and then spike back up. I threw in a bottle of Stability over a week's time and the tank finally cycled, all params holding steady for 5 days now, no high Nitrates, got about 15 various tetras in there now. I think we just added too much MG formula. But you've got wrigglers! How cool is that! Any luck with the Blue pair yet?

All, still can't find much about using the Rid-X. Only one post that says to put a cup of the stuff in 1 gal of de-clorinated water, mix well, let the solids drop to bottom and pour the liquid into tank. I'm going to try it one of these days, just not on the tank I'm going to cycle for my future Discus.

Thanks Joan, I have a nice big bottle of SafeStart that I might have to use then. I'll test the water today and see what the deal is. Funny thing is, I only put 2 teaspoons of the 30-10-10. That is some potent stuff!

The blue pair hasn't done anything since I left. I put them back into a community tank to make room for new fish coming on Monday. ;) These ARD with fry are more than a handful at the moment too.

Take care,

Eddie

[joanr]

Connie, how's it going with the fish emulsion? Have you started it yet?

[Eddie]

Well, mine wasn't a success, I ended up pouring a bottle of SafeStart in and after a week, the filters were fully cycled. I am sure the MG helped to get everything going though. Might have to try it again some day.

Eddie

[joanr]

I found the 15-30-15 mix in my garage from a long time ago. Started a 40gal cycling three days ago with a little squeeze from a sponge filter from the tank I just cycled. Added a cap of Safestart every night, it's done already, ate up 3ppm of ammo in 12 hrs. Of course there goes the whole idea of not using bacteria from another tank, but in this case the other tank is still safe. So when my Kenny order arrives on Saturday all should be ok, still have most of the bottle of SafeStart just in case.

[Disgirl]

Sounds good Joan! Sorry Eddie, maybe better luck with it next time! It is me that will do the fish emulsion experiment soon. I had to put off setting up the tank for it. I have a hand injury and have to limit using my right hand for awhile. Must save it for the nightly wc's on my one discus tank :D. But I do plan to do it as soon as I can. I have all necessary stuff for it. Will let you know when I do it.
Barb :)

[joanr]

Sorry for the mistaken identity, and to hear about your hand, hope it heals for you quickly! I still have only found that one reference to the Rid-X, but I'm out of tanks to try it on for now. Maybe my little 10 gal hospital tank....lol.

[River Studio]

Hi Guys,

Following our MG cycling experience we did encounter a problem 10 days after the tank seemed to be cycled. We had a 'bacterial bloom' and a moderate nitrite spike. Not sure how this happened but it certainly causeed a bit of head scratching.

We have just cycled another tank but decided to do it differently this time. We used Household Amonia and a small bottle of Tetra SafeStart.

We set up the tank for 24hrs and when everything was running well we added the SafeStart. An hour later we added the Amonia. On a 120Ltr tank we added 6 drops from a spare Hagen test kit pipette. Within 12hrs Nitrites were showing and in 24 hrs both Nitrites & Nitrates were rising steeply. After 48hrs the Amonia levels decreased by about 50% so we topped it up with 4 more drops.

Within 7 days the Amonia was being depleted within 12hrs and a double (12 drops) dose was depleted in 24hrs. The filter used is a Juwel internal BioFlow filter that came fitted in the tank and we also used a 120Ltr rated sponge filter in the tank which we will use to seed the next tank cycle process.

After adding the fish everything has been fine and no sign of any spikes or a 'bacterial bloom'. I guess this doesn't prove anything but I do wonder if the MG can give false readings due to the other compounds in the mix?

Anyway, we hope some of this info is of use.

Dave & Caroline.

[joanr]

The SafeStart is a product that actually works for most people. I had a small bloom in the 50 gal that I cycled with the MG but that is fairly normal for new tanks. Cut down on the lighting for a few days and it cleared up, although didn't see Nitrite spike.

[River Studio]

The SafeStart is a product that actually works for most people. I had a small bloom in the 50 gal that I cycled with the MG but that is fairly normal for new tanks. Cut down on the lighting for a few days and it cleared up, although didn't see Nitrite spike.

Hi Joan,

I think Tetra have a very good product with SafeStart and over here in the UK it isn't expensive. Seachem Stability also works well and things have certainly moved on.

This has been an interesting thread and I'm sure something good will come from all the gathered information.

There are also some really interesting and friendly people and it's a real pleasure to be on here.

Take care,

Dave & Caroline.

[Steve_Warner]

Hi All,
Great thread and very interesting! I was at K-Mart today and found a powdered MG product called "Bloom Booster"(small purple box) that was a 15-30-15 ratio mix. K-Mart also sells their own line of general fert with a 15-30-15 ratio mix. HTH.


Steve

[Matt in Houston]

Looks like my 210g tank is finished cycling after 21 days. Also keep in mind I used two bottles of Tetra Safe Start which did help to kick in some nitrates. I think the reason it took me a little longer was due to the amount of MG I started with, two tablespoons which gave me around 4 ppm ammonia.. When doing a fishless cycle using plain liquid ammonia I always start at around 4 PPM ammonia....but I think its probably best to dose the MG no higher than 1 ppm ammonia at anytime in your tank if you want a faster cycle.

Of course using a higher ammonia level to cycle the tank will probably allow a higher initial bioload. My tank can eat around 3 ppm ammonia in half a day...probably more but I havent tested higher than that. Im just not sure many people fully stock their tank in one day to take advantage of that anyway.

So after a large water change, I sit at 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 nitrate. Let the fun begin!

[Disgirl]

Really good to hear Matt! Glad it worked for you and I agree, looks like a smaller amt. of nitrogen at the beginning is the best way to go. Soon I am going to try another fertilizer as an experiment.
Barb :D

[joanr]

Great Matt, can't wait to see your new crew in that stand out tank, it's just begging for fish now!

[Matt in Houston]

Great Matt, can't wait to see your new crew in that stand out tank, it's just begging for fish now!

LOL I'm shopping now...Already have some green neon tetra in QT. Probably looking a at school of 100 of them. Not sure if they will become snacks though lol. Oh well, they're cheap enough and worth it to find out...should be plenty places in the woods to school around where the discus cant get them. Night could be a different story though...:o

I'll update my thread as things progress. :D

[River Studio]

We have just cycled a tank (Juwel Lido 120Ltr) with Amonia and Seachem Stability in 10 days! We put the Stability in the tank and 24hrs later started feeding the Amonia in. We continued with the Stability for the whole 10 days. When the Amonia was at 4ppm we held it there and after 7 days the bacteria were clearing the Amonia in 24 hrs and at 10 days all the Amonia was consumed in 12hrs......cycled tank!

I guess there are lots of different methods to do this but the Amonia + either Stability or SafeStart would be my choice and we will use it again.

[Matt in Houston]

We have just cycled a tank (Juwel Lido 120Ltr) with Amonia and Seachem Stability in 10 days! We put the Stability in the tank and 24hrs later started feeding the Amonia in. We continued with the Stability for the whole 10 days. When the Amonia was at 4ppm we held it there and after 7 days the bacteria were clearing the Amonia in 24 hrs and at 10 days all the Amonia was consumed in 12hrs......cycled tank!

I guess there are lots of different methods to do this but the Amonia + either Stability or SafeStart would be my choice and we will use it again.

What about your nitrites? I wouldnt consider a tank fully cycled until it is stable with zero ammonia and zero nitrites, no matter how quickly it eats ammonia. In my experience getting rid of the nitrites and converting them to nitrates is a process that takes longer than converting ammonia to nitrite.

Have you tested for nitrites? If not please do before you put any fish in that tank just to be safe. Good luck with the tank!

[River Studio]

What about your nitrites? I wouldnt consider a tank fully cycled until it is stable with zero ammonia and zero nitrites, no matter how quickly it eats ammonia. In my experience getting rid of the nitrites and converting them to nitrates is a process that takes longer than converting ammonia to nitrite.

Have you tested for nitrites? If not please do before you put any fish in that tank just to be safe. Good luck with the tank!

When I wrote that the bacteria ate the Amonia I should have added that the Nitrite and Amonia levels returned to zero after 12/18hrs.

That would suggest that the tank is cycled, don't you think?

During the whole process the Nitrates have steadily grown so a 100% water change was necessary and now we are maintaining the filter with a few drops of Amonia every day.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

[Matt in Houston]

Yes, much clearer now with the added information you just provided. Thats good news...

I agree if your nitrite levels and ammonia levels are now back to zero you should have a cycled tank! Looks like that stability works pretty good.

[River Studio]

Hi Matt,

Yes I think either Seachem Stability or the SafeStart would do the trick. I prefer Stability and have grown to trust Seachem's range of products. Their Purigen is excellent and Prime can dig you out of a real hole if you ever get a Nitrite spike.

[target]

I just started a cycle on a 46 gallon tank last night. I used a liquid plant food, (Not MG) that is 10-15-10 for its formula. I started with ~1 TBSP and got my ammonia up to ~1ppm. Will test tonight when I get home for work and see what I have. The tank is bare bottom, no plants or gravel, just 2 sponges. Should be interesting to see if the results are as good as when there are some plants.

[joanr]

Depending on how quickly you need the tank cycled, we have also combined the process with either SafeStart or Stabililty during the Nitrite spiking period to shorten the cycle with good success. SafeStart works better IME, and some folks add fish right away but I used it when the Nitrites stalled and it really helped within a few days it cycled fully.

[target]

Tested my water tonight when I got home from work. Less than 24 hrs after addind the plant food and my cycle has started.

Ammo: ~1
Nitrites: 0.5
Nitrates: no reading yet

[joanr]

Just wondering why you brought the ammo to only 1 ppm. We all took it to at least 3ppm initially. You might need a little more ammo to insure a better load of bacteria.

[target]

I kept it low because when I read through this thread it seemed like a lower ammo made it easier to cycle. I will leave it for tonight and if it drops will add some more tomorrow.

[joanr]

I kept it low because when I read through this thread it seemed like a lower ammo made it easier to cycle. I will leave it for tonight and if it drops will add some more tomorrow.

Yes, we were all using different strengths of the MG. Eddie and I overdosed at 4 -5 ppm and had much longer cycles. I think that 2-3 is what the fastest and still successful initial amount for the cycle to complete with a good amount of bacteria was. Does that make sense? ;) Are you looking for a quick cycle or do you have plenty of time?

[target]

I am looking for a quick cycle as it took 4 weeks linger for me to get my tank than planned and I will be getting my fishes from the Forrest shipment April is getting early Nov.

[River Studio]

Amonia at 2ppm seems to be the fastest way to cycle the tank and the whole cycling process can be as brief as a week if you manage to get the balance right.

All the best with it and I'm sure things will work out fine.

[joanr]

I am looking for a quick cycle as it took 4 weeks linger for me to get my tank than planned and I will be getting my fishes from the Forrest shipment April is getting early Nov.

Ok, so time is a factor, get a bottle of SafeStart ( bottle size depends on tank capacity ) and start using it when your nitrites peak, should cut the time in half. Just dump in the recommended amount for your tank. Measure nitrite & ammo each day. When both are 0 ppm and you still don't have your fish in tank you will need to feed your filters a little ammo each day to keep things cycled while you are waiting. Do huge w/c before adding fish.

[target]

Ok, so time is a factor, get a bottle of SafeStart ( bottle size depends on tank capacity ) and start using it when your nitrites peak, should cut the time in half. Just dump in the recommended amount for your tank. Measure nitrite & ammo each day. When both are 0 ppm and you still don't have your fish in tank you will need to feed your filters a little ammo each day to keep things cycled while you are waiting. Do huge w/c before adding fish.

Thanks for the advice. I was headed to the LFS this evening anyways, so I will look for a bottle of that as well.