PDA

View Full Version : New 140gal tank... Sump vs. Canister?



David Rose
08-19-2009, 10:26 AM
Hi All,

I just purchased my third aquarium that has two built in overflows and has 4/1" predrilled holes. The tank is 140 gals, 48x24x27.5. I've connected the overflow kits just fine, but now it's time to decide on the filtration/pumps and I would appreciate your recommendations on what would be best for filtration such as two canisters vs. a sump & pump. I've never used a sump before, but have heard that they would be the more efficient way to go.

What do you think and what brand would you recommend? Also, what capacity (gph) flow? I've gone by an article I read that said you need to process 10 times the size of your tank gallons per hour (1400gph?) for good water quality for Discus.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 02:10 PM
I would go with a sump. Heck with buying a way over priced wet dry. Make your own for less than half the price, including the pump. All you need is 2- 1 1/4" standpipes in your boxes, some adapters and fittings, 3/4" tubing for returns, a tank that holds about 30 gals., Eheim 1260 pump, pre filter, and bio media. There is no need at all to get fancy and make little individual compartments for this and that. All I use is a micron bag to act as a pre filter. The water then runs over the bio media in an elevated basket in the sump. The water then drains to the bottom of the sump, and is pumped back into the tank. I have a 240 gal., and two 125 gal. tanks using this style setup for years without a single problem. I just K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid):D

lkevin
08-19-2009, 02:30 PM
I agree, go with the sump. I'm running one on a 120 with dual overflows. With a sump you will get high oxygen levels in the water, and you can hide your heaters and such also. The one thing you will want to think about is that with overflows food can get sucked into your filtration system. You will have to hold frozen foods in the water to make sure it doesn't go all over the place, and maybe use a floating reservoir if you drop flakes in. Not big problems to overcome, but things you will want to think about if you go this route.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 08:17 PM
maybe use a floating reservoir if you drop flakes in.

Thats what I did - just drilled some tinny holes and zip tied a piece od PVC pipe to one of the 2 top braces. The PVC isolated the top of 1/3 of the tank (it extends about 1/2 an inch into the water). Floating food MOSTLY stays out the overflow now. Before I did this SOOO Much food went down the drain it was NUTZ!


All I use is a micron bag to act as a pre filter.

What kinda bag. where is it located? I want to swap my system to this But not sure how I should do it. I got a filter pad there now? Do you have a pic maybe?

Ark:angel:

Jhhnn
08-19-2009, 08:45 PM
Wet/dry overflows and sumps can be noisy, particularly when operated at the flow rates recommended for reef tanks. You neither need nor want that kind of current for discus.

In my own 75 gal wet/dry system, the flow rate is maybe 4-5X the tank capacity (if that) with a couple of #3 sponge filters running as well. I have 8 sub adults approaching 5" in that tank, feed heavily, and change half the water daily to achieve very good water quality...

My system uses the box type overflow w/ sponge prefilter, which I clean in tap water every week or so...

I've been pleased w/ the results so far- it's only been running a few months. It's pretty forgiving wrt overfilling the tank, too- be sure the sump is big enough so that it won't overflow if the pump quits...

Hans is selling bioballs pretty cheap, too...

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 08:54 PM
Ark,the bag is located on the drain pipe going to the sump. I get bags at www.mcmastercarr.com . They have a wide selection at the best prices. The bag in this old picture is a one micron bag with a wire ring in the top. I just bent the ring with my hand so it would not fall off the pipe. The bags I'm using at the moment are 75 micron, nylon mesh. They have a drawstring at the top that can be pulled closed. I like these the best because the nylon material can easily be rinsed and reused.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 09:07 PM
My problem is I am using a BIG wet dry sytem with a Drip tray and 2 feeds into the top. I guess I would need to figure how to fit a Bag in that Drip tray area which is only about 1 or 2 inches deep. I dont like the filtr pads that I am using now.

I guess I need to look at bags!

Is this what you use?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/378/=39gzu7
Filter Bags with Drawstring
Nylon * 18 x 12" x 8" * 75 Micron * Part # 2514K31

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 09:17 PM
My problem is I am using a BIG wet dry sytem with a Drip tray and 2 feeds into the top. I guess I would need to figure how to fit a Bag in that Drip tray area which is only about 1 or 2 inches deep. I dont like the filtr pads that I am using now.

I guess I need to look at bags!

Yeah, I probably would just cut it off, and design my own. :D

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 09:19 PM
My problem is I am using a BIG wet dry sytem with a Drip tray and 2 feeds into the top. I guess I would need to figure how to fit a Bag in that Drip tray area which is only about 1 or 2 inches deep. I dont like the filtr pads that I am using now.

I guess I need to look at bags!

Is this what you use?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/378/=39gzu7
Filter Bags with Drawstring
Nylon * 18 x 12" x 8" * 75 Micron * Part # 2514K31

Yep!:)

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 09:20 PM
Yeah, I probably would just cut it off, and design my own. :D


Cut what Off?

I have a wet dry simmilar to this with about Twice the Bio Ball Area

http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-WET-DRY-FILTER-175-GALLON-REEF-TANK_W0QQitemZ380150496973QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item5882bc3ecd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

I could just make my Own Sump and dump the old wet dry set up all together? What do ya think?

PS - OR I could just Retrofit my Current set up?

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 09:32 PM
Cut what Off?

I have a wet dry simmilar to this with about Twice the Bio Ball Area

http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-WET-DRY-FILTER-175-GALLON-REEF-TANK_W0QQitemZ380150496973QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item5882bc3ecd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

I could just make my Own Sump and dump the old wet dry set up all together? What do ya think?

OK, I see what you mean. Yeah, if I wanted to use bags, I would make my own sump out of an old aquarium or something. The one in the picture is an old 55 gal. aquarium. The picture only shows half of it. It runs a 240 gal. tank with 2 drains, 2 bags as pre filters, and 2 containers containing SeaChem Pond Matrix bio media.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Have you got a Side SHot / Pic. I got a 180 Gal tank - do you run other filtration? Thanks, Ark:angel:

PS - Is your Media Dry or Wet?

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 10:00 PM
No, I can't take side shots because the 55 gal. sump takes up so much room in the cabinet. The tank is 72"x 24"x 31". There is no other filtration on this tank, unless you count the sponges cycling in the sump. :D Part of the media sits above the water line, and part of it is submerged. A piece of Matala mat rests above and below the bio media. It easily supports 27 discus, and a few tetras and other fish.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 10:11 PM
MAN - I wish I could picture it in my head? Does it flow from top to bottom over the media? Poop!

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 10:13 PM
Sounds like the Bio Bedia is "Sandwiched" Between the Matts/spung's?

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 10:28 PM
Sounds like the Bio Bedia is "Sandwiched" Between the Matts/spung's?

You got it. Like a sandwich. The water flows from the tank, down the pipe, into the pre filter bag, out over the media, into the sump, and is pumped back into the tank.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 10:39 PM
This is what I am thinking of trying. Lower the drip pate (maybe pull out some BALL's.) and support it a few inches lower. Use the bags and let them sit on the drip plate. Then the drip plate trickles water over the balls. ALL the Balls are "DRY" and I have a block of filter spunge that is wet. Water moves over plate - threw balls - threw spunge - into SUMP.

This may work? Will only take minor Modification and I get the benefit of the bags!

Ark:angel:

PS - DO you think ADDING THE Matala mat might be a worthwhile investment? I think I have plenty of Biological filtration and I dont think its a necesity.

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 10:43 PM
Yeah, it should work. As long as you can make enough room for the bag, you're set. You'll love the bags. Makes maintenance super easy. No, you won't really need the Matala, I use it mainly to hold my media in place, and to spread out the water coming out of a 1 1/2" pipe.

Arkangel77
08-19-2009, 10:50 PM
YEP - I am GONA DO IT! I will try to post some pics once its done - SHould be EASY - O dang, I gota order the Bags - LOL

Thanks for the tips/help, Arkangel77

PS - Just Ordered the BAGS

Darrell Ward
08-19-2009, 11:17 PM
No problem. Look forward to seeing the pictures. :)

David Rose
08-20-2009, 08:13 AM
Thanks Darrell, Kevin, Jhnnn, and Ark for your respones!

Well I am definitely going to add a sump, but DYI plumbing :scared: ???

I did add some water in the overflow area and open tank to test for leaks especially in the overflow area. I only added a few inches and ended up with some dripping from one of the drains from the inside of the bulkhead. I'm guessing that the adjustable drain pipe isn't water tight at the bottom, but is that normal?

As a result, I did add some safety shut-offs for ease of maintenance and so I don't end up with a flooded living room. Pics below. What do you think?

Also, given I have two overflows drains/returns, how do you typically plumb the return from the wet/dry splitting it for the two returns?

Regards,
David

Darrell Ward
08-20-2009, 03:43 PM
A leaky bulkhead is not what you want. You may want to replace the gasket. In a pinch, you can remove bulkhead gasket, toss it, and run a heavy bead of silicone at the base of the bulkhead fitting. Install the bulkhead. Some silicone will squish out from the base as you tighten the nut, but it's no problem. Let it cure overnight. I have a 125 gal. that has been running 3 years with no gaskets. The bulkheads are siliconed. When I set up the tank, it was used, and the old gaskets were brittle, so I tossed them. The valves aren't really necessary on the drains, the overflows will only drain as much water as is pumped back into the tank. This is the reason for the overflow boxes. The valves on the returns can be useful for adjusting flow however. If you only use one return pump, you will need to split the return line from the pump into two returns with a tee fitting.

David Rose
08-20-2009, 04:49 PM
Thanks Darrell!

Yep, maybe overkill with the shut offs, but I wasn't taking any chances since I haven't been able to find sufficient detail on how the wet/dry sump and overflows all function and how they are supposed to work past what you get in the set up instructions. Especially what not to do. LOL

Take care,
David




A leaky bulkhead is not what you want. You may want to replace the gasket. In a pinch, you can remove bulkhead gasket, toss it, and run a heavy bead of silicone at the base of the bulkhead fitting. Install the bulkhead. Some silicone will squish out from the base as you tighten the nut, but it's no problem. Let it cure overnight. I have a 125 gal. that has been running 3 years with no gaskets. The bulkheads are siliconed. When I set up the tank, it was used, and the old gaskets were brittle, so I tossed them. The valves aren't really necessary on the drains, the overflows will only drain as much water as is pumped back into the tank. This is the reason for the overflow boxes. The valves on the returns can be useful for adjusting flow however. If you only use one return pump, you will need to split the return line from the pump into two returns with a tee fitting.

Darrell Ward
08-20-2009, 05:15 PM
It's all really simple. The average person will pick up on it the first time they set a sump up. In fact, the principle is so simple, it makes you wonder how companies justify the high prices they charge for wet dry filtration, when you can make your own for a fraction of the cost. Shout out if you have any questions.

Arkangel77
08-20-2009, 08:52 PM
Well I looked at my set up and I don't have the room I thought I had? I am thinking of a DIY Sump. Where can I find some plans? Any Ideas??? Thanks, Arkangel77

PS - dlr1961, I hope you donít mind me Jumping all up in your thread?



PPS - I just had an epiphany! Instead of Moding my Current wet dry or Building a new Sump. I am going to ADD a Chamber for the Micron filter and then let that chamber flow into the Wet dry just as it is now! Seems like a decent idea to me. Just make a chamber that holds the Filters then let that overflow into the Wet Dry! I LIKE IT!!!!!!!

David Rose
08-20-2009, 10:33 PM
No problem... from what I get out of it, you want to add a micron bag prefilter, but currently have a pad filter tray. Couldn't you just cut a micron bag or equivalent material in a square to fit your tray? Just pull and rinse periodically.

I think I'm getting a Eshopps sump with similar set up as you and was considering doing this once I have a chance to look at the actual sump layout. If that doesn't look like it will work, I will most likely put a foam prefilter on the 1.25 intake tube inside my MegaFlow Overflow kit.

Tonight, I drained the MegaFlow chamber of all the water and removed the two drain bulkheads that are leaking. The gaskets are new, but I may do as Darrell suggests and apply silicone without the gasket. I'm hoping this will resolve my slow leak issue. We'll see!




Well I looked at my set up and I don't have the room I thought I had? I am thinking of a DIY Sump. Where can I find some plans? Any Ideas??? Thanks, Arkangel77

PS - dlr1961, I hope you don’t mind me Jumping all up in your thread?



PPS - I just had an epiphany! Instead of Moding my Current wet dry or Building a new Sump. I am going to ADD a Chamber for the Micron filter and then let that chamber flow into the Wet dry just as it is now! Seems like a decent idea to me. Just make a chamber that holds the Filters then let that overflow into the Wet Dry! I LIKE IT!!!!!!!

Arkangel77
08-20-2009, 10:38 PM
I thought of that - It was my First Thought. However, I think It would be better to have the BAG in tact, less chance of stuff getting out. I am liking my pre filter "Bag / Box" Idea. I think it will be easy. I am gona try it - I will start a thread when I do. I already ordered the Bags. Thanks, Arkangel77

Darrell Ward
08-20-2009, 11:37 PM
Hey David, if your bulkhead gaskets are new, it may be that a grain of dirt or other foreign matter got between the glass and the gasket, causing the leak. You could try cleaning it all good, and reinstalling. But yeah, you can silicone that sucker as well. When it cures, it ain't gonna leak! :D

David Rose
08-21-2009, 07:28 AM
I wondered about that too given they are new. Who knows... I did wipe out the area well and thought I wet the gaskets, or maybe I tightened the bulkheads too tight, but I'm going to retry them and throw in some plumbers tape. If that doesn't work this morning after testing, I will head off to Home Deopot and see if I can get some new ones.

I'll post the results later today.

Thanks for all your help!
David

David Rose
08-21-2009, 10:10 AM
Good news, the second time was the trick and I have no leaking. The substrate is in and now I'm filling the tank. :D

Arkangel77
08-21-2009, 10:34 AM
:thumbsup:

Sweet

Darrell Ward
08-21-2009, 02:37 PM
Sounds good.

tcyiu
08-25-2009, 03:01 PM
BTW, this is a little late, but I thought I would pass along a tip re: sealing with silicone. I work on my boat a lot. And there are some principles of sealing boats that also apply to aquariums.

When you apply silicone to a bulkhead, hand tighten the bulkhead, but not all the way. Let the silicone cure. And then tighten some more. The reason is that most everyday silicone shrinks as it cures.

After the silicone has cured, make sure that you are twisting/tightening the side of the bulk head that does NOT have the silicone gasket. You want to compress the silicone some more. If you twist the side with silicone, the silicone will get torn up and you will have leaks.

Hope this helps prevent leaks for anyone doing silicone work.

Tim

David Rose
08-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the pointers Tim! I'll keep it in mind for future reference. As it turned out, my bulkheads were new and I lucked out with the gaskets working out just fine, so I didn't use silicone. Given it was my first time working with bulkheads, it was probably something I did in my first attempt installing.

Take care,

Arkangel77
09-03-2009, 08:55 PM
I got that Micron filter in place guys. Let me show ya how I did it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=568272#post568272

Arkangel77

discusjoe27
09-13-2009, 12:00 PM
a sump is basicly a wet/dry right if I remember, wet/dry is that the media gets wet, but air can still get to it consitering it "dry". sump-wet/dry, refugium depends on the media, and how the "square boxs" where built.

David Rose
09-13-2009, 04:28 PM
Yep, bioballs are usually the media. I ended up buying an Eshopps as per the diagram below with two drains and large media chambers. It came with 10 gallons of bioballs. Half or less are under the water line as the drip tray trickles from above.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/EshoppsSumpSet-up.jpg

I was too chicken to build something for now, but I'm getting more confidence now in my plumbing skills after this set up.




a sump is basicly a wet/dry right if I remember, wet/dry is that the media gets wet, but air can still get to it consitering it "dry". sump-wet/dry, refugium depends on the media, and how the "square boxs" where built.