water changes for discus tank..

[neupane00]

hello, i am not trying to be lazy but its a real question and i am very curious. I have discus tank setup with 2 sponge HOB filter. and phosphate, nitrate reactors to absorb phosphate and nitrate. I am doing water changes twice a week. But is it really necessary? what are we trying to achieve when we do water cahnges twice weekly for discus. Trying to lower nitrate nutrients right>? if you have nitrate absorbing media and nitrate is fairly low like 2-5ppm, its it okay not to do as often water change.. What really is the deal with water change, what are we trying to achieve? I have fairly high ph water.. and everytime i do water changes, i need to prepare low ph, soft water, with amazon and all added in. So trying to see if less frequent water changes is a possibility.

[namasgt]

I used to do 50 to 80 % water change everyday. and that was just because they were juvies and I wanted them to grow properly.
They say that fish will produce a hormone, that will only allow them to grow to the size of their environment. changing the water will reduce this hormone so that the fish can grow in captivity to its proper size.
When they become adults I would only do 80 % a week and thats if the tank is not overcrowded.

[namasgt]

Also in my opinion 50%, 2 times a week is allready the minimum you are doing for your Discus in terms of water change.

[Chad Hughes]

hello, i am not trying to be lazy but its a real question and i am very curious. I have discus tank setup with 2 sponge HOB filter. and phosphate, nitrate reactors to absorb phosphate and nitrate. I am doing water changes twice a week. But is it really necessary? what are we trying to achieve when we do water cahnges twice weekly for discus. Trying to lower nitrate nutrients right>? if you have nitrate absorbing media and nitrate is fairly low like 2-5ppm, its it okay not to do as often water change.. What really is the deal with water change, what are we trying to achieve? I have fairly high ph water.. and everytime i do water changes, i need to prepare low ph, soft water, with amazon and all added in. So trying to see if less frequent water changes is a possibility.

Well, if you read through the many threads on this site in regards to water changes, their frequency and water quality, you'll find a wide range of opinions. I'm not one to change a bunch of water every day. Now, this is all based on the type of system that you run, how many fish, size of tank, feeding regime, etc....

You sound like like you have a pretty good understanding of how to remove the undesireables from your closed system. That being said, have you ever looked at your TDS over time to see how it rises? Naturally we all check for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Those are the basics. Discus like CLEAN water. Another aspect of water quality that is not tested is pathogen load. There are tons of little bugs, bacteria and virus cells that multiply over time without moderate water changes.The funny thing about discus is that they are dirty fish, yet they must have excellent water quality. This is what typically drives the large, frequent water changes.

Now, all that being said, there are ways that you can adapt your filtration system to keep water cleaner for longer periods of time. You're on the right track attempting to remove your nitrate and phosphate from the water column through resins. What is not being addressed is the pathogen load and TDS that develops. There are ways to deal with this. I use ozone as my pathogen/bacteria/virus minimizer. Ozone, in my experience also keeps TDS in check. Some people use UV sterilization in a similar manner.

You are on the right track with your ideas of filtration. I don't know what size your tank is but from the filtration that you described it sounds like you may be right around 55 gallons. Something to keep in mind about sponge filters is that they do not remove particulate from the water column. These filters are simply bio-filters. The HOB is taking out particulate as well as biological filtration.

IMO keeping a discus tank from multiple weekly water changes requires overfiltration. I'd say at least two canister filters or a canister and a wet/dry/sump. A method of sterilization, either O3 or UV, and proper stocking and feeding regimes.

I'm sure others will chime in with their views. These are mine. You can check out my system at this link (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71402)!

Best wishes!

[neupane00]

Also in my opinion 50%, 2 times a week is allready the minimum you are doing for your Discus in terms of water change.

i am still not understanding.. everyone says "its the minimum".. but why?? what are we trying to get rid of with water change if we have GOOD filteration, nitrate remover, no ammonia, nitrate.. etc etc.. besides hormones (as mentioned above) for grown... my discus are all 6 inches and i dont want them to grow really fast now.
also for water change, do u guys use water from the tap (like using python) or aged water?

[Chad Hughes]

i am still not understanding.. everyone says "its the minimum".. but why?? what are we trying to get rid of with water change if we have GOOD filteration, nitrate remover, no ammonia, nitrate.. etc etc.. besides hormones (as mentioned above) for grown... my discus are all 6 inches and i dont want them to grow really fast now.
also for water change, do u guys use water from the tap (like using python) or aged water?

Water chagnes are all relative. If you have a 200 gallon tank with 6 discus in it, you don't have to change your water twice a week. That, IMO, is common sense. If you have a 55 gallon with 10 discus in it, then you'll likey perform daily water changes. See the difference?

The easiest way (meaning no thought involved) to keep discus water clean is to change it as often as possible. It's very difficult for anyone here to reply to your questions based on the information that you have given. For all we know you have 20 fish in a 30 gallon tank. There is no amount of media that is going to keep that water clean for long. ;)

[namasgt]

Water chagnes are all relative. If you have a 200 gallon tank with 6 discus in it, you don't have to change your water twice a week. That, IMO, is common sense. If you have a 55 gallon with 10 discus in it, then you'll likey perform daily water changes. See the difference?

The easiest way (meaning no thought involved) to keep discus water clean is to change it as often as possible. It's very difficult for anyone here to reply to your questions based on the information that you have given. For all we know you have 20 fish in a 30 gallon tank. There is no amount of media that is going to keep that water clean for long. ;)

you are right, we need to know the tank size and nubmer of fish you have.

Also,
for my water changes I just used the phyton and filled from the tap after I used the Prime. but that depends on what water you have from tap. mine was kinda stable at 7.4 PH. If your PH is 9 out of the tap and then drops to 7 or 6, it might stress your Discus if you dont age the water.

[neupane00]

A) 57 gallon tank (36 wide x 18 x 22 high)
B) filter:
2 HOB aquaclear 50s (one running with Chemi-Pure, another with activated carbon)
1 360 canister filter (filled with ammonia, nitrate remover)
1 phosphate reactor
c) Inline heater set at 86.5 degrees
D) Inline UV to kill bacteria
E) 7-8 plants (has eco-complete gravel.. so its not a bare bottom tank)
F) I feed once a day. bloodworm, and other mixed frozen food. (no beefheart)
G) Stock:
school of 12 cardinal tetras
2 german blue ram
5 rummynose tetra
4 about 5 inches discus
2 about 3 inches discus

[Chad Hughes]

A) 57 gallon tank (36 wide x 18 x 22 high)
B) filter:
2 HOB aquaclear 50s (one running with Chemi-Pure, another with activated carbon)
1 360 canister filter (filled with ammonia, nitrate remover)
1 phosphate reactor
c) Inline heater set at 86.5 degrees
D) Inline UV to kill bacteria
E) 7-8 plants (has eco-complete gravel.. so its not a bare bottom tank)
F) I feed once a day. bloodworm, and other mixed frozen food. (no beefheart)
G) Stock:
school of 12 cardinal tetras
2 german blue ram
5 rummynose tetra
4 about 5 inches discus
2 about 3 inches discus


That's better. :)

I'd say you would be OK with this setup changing 50% or more of your water weekly.

Best wishes!

[namasgt]

A) 57 gallon tank (36 wide x 18 x 22 high)
B) filter:
2 HOB aquaclear 50s (one running with Chemi-Pure, another with activated carbon)
1 360 canister filter (filled with ammonia, nitrate remover)
1 phosphate reactor
c) Inline heater set at 86.5 degrees
D) Inline UV to kill bacteria
E) 7-8 plants (has eco-complete gravel.. so its not a bare bottom tank)
F) I feed once a day. bloodworm, and other mixed frozen food. (no beefheart)
G) Stock:
school of 12 cardinal tetras
2 german blue ram
5 rummynose tetra
4 about 5 inches discus
2 about 3 inches discus

Id say you are overstocked with fish. your allready maxed out with 6 Discus. but your feeding once a day so the water is not getting that much messy.
whats your PH out of the tap and what do you bring it down to? you said its high.

[neupane00]

my ph right outta the tank is 7.3 about. i think thats too high. and GH of 150ppm .. so i use Instant Amazon to bring the hardness down and ph down to about 6.8.. this is what i use http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4088

[neupane00]

my ph right outta the tank is 7.3 about. i think thats too high. and GH of 150ppm .. so i use Instant Amazon to bring the hardness down and ph down to about 6.8.. this is what i use .. (i guess i cant post the link. pls search for product called "Instant Amazon")

[namasgt]

my ph right outta the tank is 7.3 about. i think thats too high. and GH of 150ppm .. so i use Instant Amazon to bring the hardness down and ph down to about 6.8.. this is what i use .. (i guess i cant post the link. pls search for product called "Instant Amazon")

I kept my water at 7s, thats what was out of the tap and I did not use any additives. Discus will be fine at these high PH values as long as it stays stable and not fluctuate.

[Darrell Ward]

IMO, there is no need to lower your pH of 7.3, or use any chemical media either. I have never used any chemical media, just a pre filter and bio. Too much stuff going on, and way too much money being spent on that tank. My advice is to keep things as simple as possible. Save the money you spend on that stuff and set up another tank with some new discus. :) By the way, the main reason for water changes is to rid the tank of dissolved organics, and water changes is the only really effective way to remove them.

[Jhhnn]

One thing I'm sure about wrt this discussion is that 3" discus won't grow worth a damn on 1 feeding per day... Sub-adults are voracious feeders, and will basically stop growing at ~1 year old, no matter their size...

I'd also rate the tank as overstocked, although not heavily. I'm pretty conservative in that respect- when things start to go bad in heavily stocked tanks, it can happen quickly, very quickly...

Even though I'm currently a member of the change a lot of water daily club, I'm a rather keen fan of Chad's methods, and may well seek to use them when I'm more advanced in the hobby...

OTOH, I've invested a fair amount of time, effort and money into making water changes quick and easy, and encourage others to do the same. At some level or another, Eddie's, my own, or Chad's, they're entirely necessary because we can't measure more than a few water parameters and are dealing with intangibles that only fresh water can really address adequately. I'd rather err on the side of caution than flirt with disaster...

[Eddie]

i am still not understanding.. everyone says "its the minimum".. but why?? what are we trying to get rid of with water change if we have GOOD filteration, nitrate remover, no ammonia, nitrate.. etc etc.. besides hormones (as mentioned above) for grown... my discus are all 6 inches and i dont want them to grow really fast now.
also for water change, do u guys use water from the tap (like using python) or aged water?

Spent water that needs to be replace by replenished water. Discus absorb just as much from water as they do from food. Also, fouled water is just a disease outbreak waiting to happen. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

In order to get back to the OPs original quest for information...

I'd stop tinkering with your water parameters. Use aged tap with a conditioner such as prime. Do as many water changes as you see fit. Obviously more is better than less. If you feel that your filtration system is sufficiently cleaning the water that you do not need to change water as often as you do, then that is your way of doing things.

There are far too many posts on this forum talking about this exact subject to bring it all back up. I'm sure some of you agree. Please read the posts!!

I wish you the best!

[Lytehouse]

Just coming back to Discus from saltwater reefs,

One of the guru speakers in that field is fond of saying:

"The best solution for pollution is dillution", ie....

water changes are the option for removing wast from water, regardless of filtration. Believe me, there are no more complicated filtration systems than saltwater reefs and the standard is water changes.... JMO

[Don Trinko]

All that follows is IMO;
1. Most discus keepers feed 3 to 6 times a day. Some will feed less after fish are near adult. I fed mine 4 times untill they matures . Now I feed 3 times a day.
2. There are literaly thousands of threads on WC ranging everywhere from 100% twice a day to 20% a month or less. IMO it depends mostly of the following: A: number of fish per gal of water. B: amount and number of feedings. C: Age of fish.
Most discus keepers agree that they need clean water but differ in opinion abought how many/how much/how offten to change water to acomplish this.
Don T.