How long before I need to worry?

[seancj]

My 10 2.5 inch discus from Backyarddiscus arrived yesterday afternoon. I acclimated them, put them in the tank and turned the lights off for the rest of the evening. All of them looked outwardly healthy upon arrival albeit a bit stressed.
This morning they were still cowered in the back corner of the tank hiding amongst the plants, apparently breathing hard.
Upon returning from work this evening, they are still hiding in the plants and breathing hard.
Water parameters are all very good, temp at 83 (raising it to 84 as we speak).
I expected that it would take them some time to feel comfortable in their new surrounding, but how many days before I start to worry?
I'll perform a large water change tomorrow after work or should I wait a bit?
They are not eating yet either. I have offered frozen bloodworms and Tetra bits to no avail.
Any assurances or suggestions would be very welcome.

[Jhhnn]

I'd make sure the tank is well aerated and that the CO2 level isn't too high, if you're adding it... I'd give 'em a couple more days with close observation before doing anything drastic... well, that's assuming things stabilize and start to improve...

A partial water change won't hurt anything, regardless of what the test kits tell you...

[Eddie]

My 10 2.5 inch discus from Backyarddiscus arrived yesterday afternoon. I acclimated them, put them in the tank and turned the lights off for the rest of the evening. All of them looked outwardly healthy upon arrival albeit a bit stressed.
This morning they were still cowered in the back corner of the tank hiding amongst the plants, apparently breathing hard.
Upon returning from work this evening, they are still hiding in the plants and breathing hard.
Water parameters are all very good, temp at 83 (raising it to 84 as we speak).
I expected that it would take them some time to feel comfortable in their new surrounding, but how many days before I start to worry?
I'll perform a large water change tomorrow after work or should I wait a bit?
They are not eating yet either. I have offered frozen bloodworms and Tetra bits to no avail.
Any assurances or suggestions would be very welcome.

Are there any other fish in the tank? Has this fish tank EVER had fish in it before?

They may just be adjusting, can take several days to a week.

Take care,

Eddie

[Lytehouse]

This is highly frustrating and scary process. As Eddie said, can take several days or week, if all else is well. Can you post any pics of the fish? Have you done water tests? Can you describe the tank set up? The more information the better for people to help and not guess.

Best of luck.

[Chad Hughes]

To be cautious, I would contact the breeder/seller and talk to them about what is taking place with the fish. Sellers should know their fish best and shoud be able to relay the best information to you. We are guessing.

I will say, with shipped fish, it's good to know what the water parameters of the seller are before adding them to your tank. If you read their website, their parameters are given, however they do not list TDS which, IMO, is THE most imprtant parameter to know. Here is their web site link (http://www.backyarddiscusllc.com/id30.html).

What's your water like? Soft, low Ph? Hard, high Ph? If you have soft water, these guys are going to have to adjust to your new water. Typically discus adjust better to harde water when coming from neutral to hard water.

Give them a call and see what they say. That's what I would do. ;)

[yim11]

TDS which, IMO, is THE most imprtant parameter to know.

Even more so than pH? I'm thinking in regards to fish going from low to high (or vice versa) pH...

Thanks,
-jim

[Chad Hughes]

Even more so than pH? I'm thinking in regards to fish going from low to high (or vice versa) pH...

Thanks,
-jim

Yes. Ph low to high is worse that high to low. The same with TDS. Dropping the Ph can cause Ph burn to the gills. Major TDS shifts from high to low cause osmotic shock. The reason that I watch the TDS is because it is a good indicator of Ph, assuming that the water has not been modified with acid or alkaline buffers. If the TDS is a close match, the Ph won't be far off enough to cause a problem. Hope that helps!

[jaykne]

Your water was probably not a very close match, and they are probably just very stressed, but it is also very common for discus to hide and not want to eat the first couple days. Just watch them close make sure you don't see any other symtoms and I would do a water change, I never wait to do water changes on new fish, start them right off with my daily water changes. I would also put some salt in the tank, like a TBLS for every 10gal of water, helps reduce stress and gill function, add more for any water you replace for about a week. Larry

[namasgt]

I never had a fish do this under good water conditions.
If they are not eating there is a problem as juvies like to eat a lot. this only have happened when the water was bad and got fixed by large water change with aged water.
If they are truely stressed as it looks like, and it goes like this for too long they can develope deseases like Hex which is not a very good thing if you have juvies.

plus I strongly recomend you to remove the plants and keep them in a bare bottom. you only have to wait a little over 12 months before they get big and atractive, then you can put them in a planted tank. there is no sense to put a baby discus in a planted tank, they make a lot of mess and WC will be harder in planted tank.

[seancj]

Thank you all for the replies and input.
Here is my post describing the tank in detail:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72954
I came home during lunch today to find 10 of the 11 discus swimming out in the open in two small groups. A single blue diamond is still hiding in the plants. All of them still appear to be breathing a bit fast and none of them will eat bloodworms or tetra bits. They all still scurry back to the plants when I move towards the tank.
I will do a 50% water change when I get home around 4 PM and see what follows.
My tap water is a bit on the hard side. PH is 7.7. Nitrates at about 5.
Plenty of oxygen as I have a trickly filter sump and a small waterfall type return.
The room with the aquarium is a very low traffic room, so they should not be startled at all during the day and very little during the evening.
I'll post more later tonight.
Sean

[Scribbles]

Good to hear that they are coming around. Discus are skittish but they will get used to you. Your little ones might be feeling a bit lost in such a big tank. Just give them time. Young discus do breathe rather rapidly especially when feeling stressed. As long as they don't have one gill clamped or are flashing or scratching I would just keep an eye on them. HTH

Chris

[Chad Hughes]

I'm wondering if it might have something to do with shadowing at the top of your tank. It's open with no cover. Discus hate overhead movement. Maybe they're just spooked? Guessing here. Glad to hear that they are coming around!

[Lytehouse]

Great you have some change in behavior. Also good you are so observant.

Keep us posted. Good luck with the water change.

[Daniella]

When small babies discus have places to hide, they will hide. It is best to keep them in a not too large tank, bare bottom to, but if you want to keep them in a planted tank, you can expect them to be shy. Just a bare bottom tank is really needed at this young age to keep good water quality with the 6 times per day feeding they require.



Thank you all for the replies and input.
Here is my post describing the tank in detail:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72954
I came home during lunch today to find 10 of the 11 discus swimming out in the open in two small groups. A single blue diamond is still hiding in the plants. All of them still appear to be breathing a bit fast and none of them will eat bloodworms or tetra bits. They all still scurry back to the plants when I move towards the tank.
I will do a 50% water change when I get home around 4 PM and see what follows.
My tap water is a bit on the hard side. PH is 7.7. Nitrates at about 5.
Plenty of oxygen as I have a trickly filter sump and a small waterfall type return.
The room with the aquarium is a very low traffic room, so they should not be startled at all during the day and very little during the evening.
I'll post more later tonight.
Sean

[seancj]

I did a 50% water change last night, about 120 gallons or so. A few hours after the water change, still no interest in food and still hiding.
As of this morning:
All discus still appear to be breathing fast this morning but no signs of gill clamping, flashing, or scratching.
They continue to hide near the back pane amoungst the plants. I offered them Tetra Bits and bloodworms again this morning which they ignored.
All other fish (glo lite tetras, neon tetras, baby roselines) are doing very well.
Not sure what else to do. I'd really hate to have to pull out all the plants, which might elleviate the hiding issue, but how would that improve their appetite?
Its the lack of eating that concerns me the most.
Is there any food that they just can't refuse or ignore?
I have emailed BackYardDiscus and reported the issue to them and waiting for a response.
Thanks again everyone for the help.

[Daniella]

wow, how big is that tank? 300 gallons? since you say 50% water change is about 120 gallons. that's probably too large for such small discus and they will get skittish in such large tank.

Instead of removing your plants, why not buy another smaller aquarium and let them grow in there a bit with bare bottom tank? They will be much less skittish in a smaller tank with no place to hide and they will grown much better in a smaller aquarium with good water change and many feedings per day. It's much easier to keep the tank clean.

2,5 inches are very small fish.

Adults would do very well in your large planted tank, even young adults.

As for the food, why not try to get some white worms culture? I started some starving fish on these and they started eating.

California black worms is another options but they can be expensive and hard to culture and your fish might get hooked on them and refuse all other food.

White worms are nice because they are loved by fish and they are easy and cheap to culture.

Are all of them breathing fast? might be parasites or they are afraid.






I did a 50% water change last night, about 120 gallons or so. A few hours after the water change, still no interest in food and still hiding.
As of this morning:
All discus still appear to be breathing fast this morning but no signs of gill clamping, flashing, or scratching.
They continue to hide near the back pane amoungst the plants. I offered them Tetra Bits and bloodworms again this morning which they ignored.
All other fish (glo lite tetras, neon tetras, baby roselines) are doing very well.
Not sure what else to do. I'd really hate to have to pull out all the plants, which might elleviate the hiding issue, but how would that improve their appetite?
Its the lack of eating that concerns me the most.
Is there any food that they just can't refuse or ignore?
I have emailed BackYardDiscus and reported the issue to them and waiting for a response.
Thanks again everyone for the help.

[bs6749]

I agree that they need to be in a smaller tank. I'd look for a 55g tank and grow them out in that until they are about 4" and then transfer them into your 240g tank.

In the 55g growout tank I would add some aquarium salt to the water. It seems to help calm my new arrivals.

[seancj]

Good news! I came home today from work and found 10 of the 11 discus swimming out in the open AND 8 of the 10 have started eating! I think they are finally coming around.
I'm looking for a 55 gallon as I type. As has been suggested, I think I'll move the discus to the 55 until they are ready for the display tank. I am thinking about plumbing the 55 and the 240 together so the transition down the road will be easy.

[YSS]

I don't agree with those who say bigger tanks are not well suited for small discus. If they want to hide because that's what they are comfortable with, then they should hide. I have a 265G tank and my juvie discus (I've had many) never had any issues because of the size. You have 11 discus in a 240G. I don't think you need to do 50% water changes that often. Best of luck! Your tank is awesome!

[Scribbles]

If they are starting to eat and get comfortable I'd just leave them where they are and keep an eye on them.

Chris

[namasgt]

they can not refuse California Black worms, there is a sponsore here that sells them, you get them the next day you order.
good luck

[Lytehouse]

How the little guys doin'?

[seancj]

Unfortunately, not much change. I wasn't able to switch them to a smaller tank this weekend as I'd hoped.
Most are still hiding much of the day. A few of the slightly larger ones are nibbling but none of them are 'chowing down', in fact, I still have not seen many of them eat at all, but I have to assume that they are or they would be looking worse than they do.
BackYardDiscus sent me some of their flake food, but the discus won't touch it :confused: I was assured that they couldn't refuse this 'mixture' but they are not interested in it at all.
All other fish are eating like pigs and are happy and healthy.
I raised the temp up to 85/86 degrees and feed the tank 5 times a day. I'll do a water change again tomorrow night.
I'm starting to wish I had just gone with angelfish!:angry:

[Lytehouse]

Discus can be frustrating and scary, but highly rewarding.

As others have said, you have a big tank and they are small. They will grow. They are probably finding a lot to pick at when nobody is around watching. Give it some more time.

Any chance of some pics?

[Daniella]

I thought they were eating live worms? Have you tried to make a beefheart mix? or a seafood mix? that might be more accepted. I really do think such large tank is intimidating for small fish and not the best way to raise such small discus.

One solution might be to get some adults discus or young adults. The little ones will maybe feel more secure with adults. It did it for me except that my adults are getting fed each time the small ones eat so they are getting fat!





:
Unfortunately, not much change. I wasn't able to switch them to a smaller tank this weekend as I'd hoped.
Most are still hiding much of the day. A few of the slightly larger ones are nibbling but none of them are 'chowing down', in fact, I still have not seen many of them eat at all, but I have to assume that they are or they would be looking worse than they do.
BackYardDiscus sent me some of their flake food, but the discus won't touch it :confused: I was assured that they couldn't refuse this 'mixture' but they are not interested in it at all.
All other fish are eating like pigs and are happy and healthy.
I raised the temp up to 85/86 degrees and feed the tank 5 times a day. I'll do a water change again tomorrow night.
I'm starting to wish I had just gone with angelfish!:angry:

[Eddie]

I don't agree with those who say bigger tanks are not well suited for small discus. If they want to hide because that's what they are comfortable with, then they should hide. I have a 265G tank and my juvie discus (I've had many) never had any issues because of the size. You have 11 discus in a 240G. I don't think you need to do 50% water changes that often. Best of luck! Your tank is awesome!

You may not agree but that isn't saying much.

Sean, your juveniles will breath fast, thats what they do. Watch the temps as this may affect some of your plants. Don't give up yet, angel fish are nice but they don't come close to a beautiful adult discus. I remember mentioning to you that sub-adults or adults would have been best for your set-up. There is a huge ocean of room for your babies, they will take a while to get comfortable. Just give them time. One thing I find that helps with baby discus is the reduced amount of light. I think you have a ton of of wattage shining on them right. Having too much light will force them to hide IMO.

Wishing you the best with them and hope they start to eat for you.

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

interesting, mine don't breath fast. I just got 2 blue diamond 2.5 inches (now 3") and they only breath fast when they had gill flukes (when I got them). After treatment they breath just a little tad faster than the adults..which is quite slow.

Maybe it would help if you would tell how fast they are breathing? Like how many breath they take in like 5 seconds or 10 seconds so that we can compare and see if they are really in distress or normal.

Mine will breath a little faster after eating but since yours are not eating, it's not relevant.

[Apistomaster]

Fast breathing in small Discus indicates that something is stressing them.

A bare bottom smaller tank as has been suggested, does work best for very young discus. Everything is easier to control. Uneaten food is easy to remove. You can be sure in a tank as large as yours the Discus are not finding all the food. If some other fish are present like schools of Tetras, 12 Corydoras sterbai and a couple Bushy Nose plecos would help ensure that no food is allowed to go uneaten.

It is not unusual for very small Discus to hide but the presence of some Tetras helps Discus feel more at ease. They take cues from the behavior of other fish when they calculate the level of danger they perceive. If other fish are rushing to the food, then the small Discus will feel it must be safe and their competitive instincts will kick in and a feeding frenzy ensues.

I have handled 1000's of Discus and typically healthy young Discus will begin to take food within 15 minutes after being released from the bag. It's best to feed them lightly in the first couple days but after that they should feed voraciously.

[YSS]

You may not agree but that isn't saying much.



I am providing an opinion based on my experiences of keeping juvy discus in my 265G tank. As I stated in my post above, I've never had issues with my juvy discus because of size of my tank and I am suggesting that the OP should not move his discus to a smaller tank. I suspect something is up with water that's not making the discus happy and moving the fish to a smaller tank with same water is not going to make any difference. But I have been wrong before. A lot of folks here have a lot more experiences than I do. After all, I have only been keeping discus for just over 4 years and really got the hang of it in the last year or so.

[Eddie]

I am providing an opinion based on my experiences of keeping juvy discus in my 265G tank. As I stated in my post above, I've never had issues with my juvy discus because of size of my tank and I am suggesting that the OP should not move his discus to a smaller tank. I suspect something is up with water that's not making the discus happy and moving the fish to a smaller tank with same water is not going to make any difference. But I have been wrong before. A lot of folks here have a lot more experiences than I do. After all, I have only been keeping discus for just over 4 years and really got the hang of it in the last year or so.

Precisely

[YSS]

Precisely

You can provide a different opinion on this matter based on your experience if you have one. After all, you are the one who think keeping discus is easier than keeping most other fish despite all the trouble you've been having recently.

[Eddie]

You can provide a different opinion on this matter based on your experience if you have one. After all, you are the one who think keeping discus is easier than keeping most other fish despite all the trouble you've been having recently.

Precisely

[jhamil]

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
WHEN I PURCHASED MY DISCUS THE PROVIDER TOLD ME TO INCREASE THE TEMPERATURE TO 87 DEGGREES AFTER ACCLAMATION AND TO STARVE THEM FOR 24 HOURS. THE INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE WOULD INCREASE THEIR APPETITE AND NOT FEEDING THEM FOR 24 HOURS WOULD MAKE THEM REALLY HUNGRY AT THAT POINT I INTRODUCED WHAT THEY WOULD BE EATING AT A REGULAR BASIS (BLOOD WORMS). LISTEN DO YOU HAVE ANY TANK MATES FOR YOUR JUVIES THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT ALSO TRY LIVE BLOOD WORMS THAT MAY GET THEM GOING. GOOD LUCK.. DO YOU HAVE PICTURES

[Eddie]

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
WHEN I PURCHASED MY DISCUS THE PROVIDER TOLD ME TO INCREASE THE TEMPERATURE TO 87 DEGGREES AFTER ACCLAMATION AND TO STARVE THEM FOR 24 HOURS. THE INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE WOULD INCREASE THEIR APPETITE AND NOT FEEDING THEM FOR 24 HOURS WOULD MAKE THEM REALLY HUNGRY AT THAT POINT I INTRODUCED WHAT THEY WOULD BE EATING AT A REGULAR BASIS (BLOOD WORMS). LISTEN DO YOU HAVE ANY TANK MATES FOR YOUR JUVIES THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT ALSO TRY LIVE BLOOD WORMS THAT MAY GET THEM GOING. GOOD LUCK.. DO YOU HAVE PICTURES

Whats with the CAPS LOCK

[H82LOS3]

Hmmm very interesting thread, same thing happen to my 2" blue diamond!
But for me it has been a week n no sign of eating

Do u have any update to thread starter?

[Eddie]

Hmmm very interesting thread, same thing happen to my 2" blue diamond!
But for me it has been a week n no sign of eating

Do u have any update to thread starter?

What is your tank size, fish amount and fish size. This will usually narrow it down every time. As long as water quality is top notch anyways.

Eddie

[H82LOS3]

What is your tank size, fish amount and fish size. This will usually narrow it down every time. As long as water quality is top notch anyways.

Eddie

Ok sorry i forgot about my information, sorry to hijack thread.

I have 40 gal planted tank:
8 neon tetras
2 discus (red pigeon n blue diamond) about 2.5" size
5 corycatish
4 orange tetras
4 adult guppies + lots of babies

My filtration:
fluval 405
aquaclear 50

-The red pigeon discus is fine and swimming around. She eat alot of hikari brineshrimp and bloodworms only. But only the blue diamond hiding behind the plants in the corner.
Please help?

[Eddie]

Yeah, there is the problem, only having 2 discus is bad joo joo. I am sure the pigeon is bullying the BD like crazy. I recommend 5 discus minimum unless you have a pair.

Take care,

Eddie

[H82LOS3]

Yeah, there is the problem, only having 2 discus is bad joo joo. I am sure the pigeon is bullying the BD like crazy. I recommend 5 discus minimum unless you have a pair.

Take care,

Eddie

Hmmmm yea interesting, you are right. The red pigeon is bullying blue diamond, so do you think i should buy more discus? How many more should i buy for my 40 gal planted tank?

[Eddie]

Well you are kind of at a max right now for a 40. I would only keep a pair in 40 gallon community tank.

Eddie

[H82LOS3]

Well you are kind of at a max right now for a 40. I would only keep a pair in 40 gallon community tank.

Eddie

Thanks alot for the help eddie!