OMG!

[Daniella]

My wild heckel has just paired up with my eruption and they have spawned in my community tank. I came back from the store to find the heckel very aggressive and all the other fish at the far end of the tank and wow..eggs are on the driftwood!

Can hardly beleive it :)

there was not much courtship. the eruption shaking from time to time but it was mostly bowing to each other with fins erected. I just removed a pair because the disturbed the peace as they spawned and now I have 2 of my other adults at it again. geezzz...Is there a way to keep discus in a community tank without them pairing and spawning?

I really don't know what to do with them :-/

Anyone know what the babies would look like from a heckel and an eruption?

I still have to see if the eggs are fertile but they both making pass at it. They are not yet done and I can see both of them doing it.

[Eddie]

If you don't want to raise the fish, don't separate them. Spawning is a way of life for fish.....completely natural. Also, the fish are cichlids, very territorial, so I am not sure what you were expecting.

Eddie

[Daniella]

I was not expecting such aggression. Each time a couple pair up and spawn there is chaos in my aquarium.

I have seen many beautiful aquariums with many adult discus all getting along together perfectly and I was kind of expecting this I admit. Not the havoc that I get all the time.

That's what I would like. I tank full of adult discus all living together more or less in peace. 120 gallons = 12 to 14 discus max.

Honestly, I was not expecting this at all.

I am trying to take some photos of it. will put them on the web a bit later :)





If you don't want to raise the fish, don't separate them. Spawning is a way of life for fish.....completely natural. Also, the fish are cichlids, very territorial, so I am not sure what you were expecting.

Eddie

[Eddie]

I was not expecting such aggression. Each time a couple pair up and spawn there is chaos in my aquarium.

I have seen many beautiful aquariums with many adult discus all getting along together perfectly and I was kind of expecting this I admit. Not the havoc that I get all the time.

That's what I would like. I tank full of adult discus all living together more or less in peace. 120 gallons = 12 to 14 discus max.

Honestly, I was not expecting this at all.

I am trying to take some photos of it. will put them on the web a bit later :)

Yeah, I have never seen tanks of discus with no aggression at all. Maybe pictures but pictures don't really tell much of the story.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Oh I have seen it and I know a few people who have such tank.

Dunno what would happen if I would put the other couple back. there would be fighting no doubt. The more I wait and the more there will be problem I guess if I wish to return them to the main tank. I can isolate a couple causing trouble but I cannot do it for 2 couple. I only have 5 adults and now there is only one adult not at it (because he's alone).

Strangest thing is that right now my water quality is awfull. I have had ammonia at .25 to .50 for a week and now for 3 days nitritres were at around .25 to .50 because I had to cycle my tank again after desinfection for flukes.

I do 60 % water change each day but that still does not get the water free of all these poisons. That does not stop them from breeding.

And now as I write this my other couple in the 20 gallons are spawning as well. I am about to pull my hair out.

I was thinking of buying more adults. Either that or selling them and going with less aggressive fish, not sure.

I did a big consession by going bare bottom and throwing away all my plants, but I still don't have a founctional aquarium.






Yeah, I have never seen tanks of discus with no aggression at all. Maybe pictures but pictures don't really tell much of the story.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Ammonia is irrelevant when PH levels are neutral or below. The nitrite you may just be juggling with the water changes. Definitely keep doing your water changes and salt would be a good thing.

Guess you best move on to other fish because there is only fantasy in what you saw. Cichlids are temperamental and when it comes to breeding, there will only be havoc if there are other fish around.

Eddie

[lemondiscus]

I have to agree with Eddie... I have had Discus almost 2 years and they ARE NOT peaceful fish by ANY means! Ever since I have kept them I have seen bullying to almost no end.... Discus are like Angels to a degree... peaceful until they pair and then reake havok on everyone in the tank that comes near their site...

I had a pair (as you know AND an undesirable one) in my 125... they took over 80% of the tank putting the other 9 in a 5" x 19" area.... Thats the 2 I am playing with now...

Discus are cichlids... cichlids have their ways about them... you may not see the cichlid in them all the time, but IT DOES come out!!! They are NOT peaceful fish! Its a joke if you think they are.... Again like Eddie said, I thought when I first got into Discus that from the pictures they were calm, shoaling fish.... WRONG!

[April]

discus quite often will start spawning if a bit of ammonia present. my friend jason used to say ..if you want to jump start them laying..add a bit of ammonia. or..just fluctuations will get them going.
adult discus are always pushing and moving others out of their way if they want to spawn..no sense moving any out until you see if the eggs are fertile. they will keep the others away . unless you have a tank full of one sex..they will lay . even then..females will lay with each other..etc.
adult discus push and shove and have their place in the tank.
welll..let us know if they are fertile.

[Daniella]

Salt is already in the tank and the cycle is practicaly completed. I have used Superbac live. It took about 10 days to do but my Ph was around 7. I guess it would have taken a bit less if my Ph had been optimal.

I will talk to these people and see what they think. How they acheive balance in all this.



Ammonia is irrelevant when PH levels are neutral or below. The nitrite you may just be juggling with the water changes. Definitely keep doing your water changes and salt would be a good thing.

Guess you best move on to other fish because there is only fantasy in what you saw. Cichlids are temperamental and when it comes to breeding, there will only be havoc if there are other fish around.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Some pics, not the greatest pics though...

I can see the heckel was doing pass on the driftwood here:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603556/original

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603697

and the eruption right after:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603652/original

and now the eruption is fanning the eggs:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603732

Anyone can tell me if the heckel is a male or a female? I think it's a female because of the behavior but not sure:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603674/original

[Chad Hughes]

From your pictures there is no possible way to tell. If you had the opportunity to take photgraphs, that would have been the ideal time to sex the fish.... in the act. That being said, you still won't know if this is a pair or not until their fry go free swimming. This will confirm a true pair. Until then, you wait..... ;)

[Eddie]

I will talk to these people and see what they think. How they acheive balance in all this.

Balance in what?

[Daniella]

balance, equilibrum, zen, something viable without chaos all the time.

They have many discus living together and each time I go there it's very peacefull and no discus fight.

As for the pair, I did watch it but both were doing the same move so hard to tell wich one was laying eggs and wich one was fertilizing the eggs.

I know the eruption was fighting with my other male (confirmed) to spawn with my female melon (confirmed) so I am guessing the eruption is a male as she did spaw with that eruption once after he won a fight and my checkerboard was temporary in exile. So that would make the heckel a female because I have eggs. This morning only one egg is white and the eruption is guarding them like an hawk.

Also the heckel was previously only fighting with my female melon. so from the behavior I concluded that the heckel is a female and the eruption a male.




Balance in what?

[Eddie]

Zen.....I am trying to think if there is a group of fish where there is total zen. I was thinking puffers but I am sure I've seen them be aggressive too. :D

Eddie

[lemondiscus]

bThis morning only one egg is white and the eruption is guarding them like an hawk.

IME with ANGELS the male tends to guard and fan the eggs more than the female... however they do take turns but more often than not it was always the male that seemed to be a better parent...

Again that is my experience... My 2 discus that are spawning I noticed are exhibiting the exact same behavior with the male guarding/fanning the eggs more than the female.

They just laid eggs yesterday again and I felt privileged to watch them make their runs on the spawning site! It was about 45 minutes of entertainment for me (god I am a fish nerd!... lol )

[Eddie]

Just making a guess but the heckel might be the female which is pretty interesting. You should try to successfully raise the fry if they go free swimming.

Eddie

[lemondiscus]

Just making a guess but the heckel might be the female which is pretty interesting. You should try to successfully raise the fry if they go free swimming.

Eddie
I would too!

[Eddie]

There are not too many folks that can say they bred a heckel. The funny thing is this fish has been in your tanks for maybe 3 months, most heckels don't get comfortable that fast....well comfortable enough to spawn anyways. You got yourself a pretty healthy and vigorous fish.

Best of luck with them,

Eddie

[Daniella]

Not even 3 months since I bought it on June 21. Funny thing is that fish at the pet store was apathetic..not moving and I first thought it was sick. It was trying to hide in the far corner of the aquarium, not moving from there. They said they had it for 4 months but I doubt it.

It's now the boss of my aquarium :) It is a very tough little one. Recently I did pp treatments (one per week for 2 weeks and last one on agust 21) so that heckel went trough the treatment like the rest. Amazing I think that it spawned despite the treatments, despite the bad water quality.

I have also notice a major increase in appetite for the last few days so that might be explained by the laying of eggs, not sure.

I still need to see if the eggs are fertile.

Very bad timing though since I am leaving for vacation sunday for 7 days and they spawned in the community tank (good thing I got rid of the tetras) :(



There are not too many folks that can say they bred a heckel. The funny thing is this fish has been in your tanks for maybe 3 months, most heckels don't get comfortable that fast....well comfortable enough to spawn anyways. You got yourself a pretty healthy and vigorous fish.

Best of luck with them,

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

Spawning discus typically eat less. Just thought I'd put that out there. :o

[Daniella]

hmm I will see if the eggs are fertile and if they are I will have certitude I have a pair there..




Spawning discus typically eat less. Just thought I'd put that out there. :o

[April]

well..hopefully by tomorrow you see little wigglers. you can clearly see the breeding tube on the heckel in your third pic. thats what you shouldve been looking for..the males..pointy...the girls..wide and flat on the end.
hopefully they dont eat them before they hatch so you can see if fertile.

[Daniella]

In this photo I think I see the breeding tube of the heckel:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603628/original

they have not eated the eggs and the eruption is extremely protective. He only come to eat for a very short time and rush back to the eggs. The heckel is less interested in the eggs..it come from time to time to vent them but it's mostly the eruption doing all the work.

So the heckel is the female?




well..hopefully by tomorrow you see little wigglers. you can clearly see the breeding tube on the heckel in your third pic. thats what you shouldve been looking for..the males..pointy...the girls..wide and flat on the end.
hopefully they dont eat them before they hatch so you can see if fertile.

[April]

possibly..looks like it may be..which is great..you mustve stimulated her with your water spikes or something..or low ph. who knows.

[Daniella]

Ph is 7.1 to 7.2 and temperature is pretty constant to 28C. TDS vary a little from 100 to 150 depending how much emergency water change I had to do and I much osmosis water I had available (mix of tap and osmose). I had salt in the tank like about 2 days before spawning (1 teaspoon per 10 gallon).

Nothing special really, plus bad water quality for 11 days (ammonia and at the end nitrites)


possibly..looks like it may be..which is great..you mustve stimulated her with your water spikes or something..or low ph. who knows.

[Chad Hughes]

Sounds like a complete accident to me! ;)

[ifixoldhouses]

dang, did you take all those pix of eagles and such?

[lemondiscus]

dang, did you take all those pix of eagles and such?

I know I was admiring her photography skills if those are all her photos (I think they are!)

[wgtaylor]

Hi Daniella,

Looks like a very nice female heckle and a very rare event.
I see why you titled this thread "OMG", congratulations, well done. :)
Wish you the best is saving some of the fry if it is meant to be. :)
Take care,
Bill

[Daniella]

Yes those are my photographs. I take wildlife and landscape but mostly wildlife.

Wish I had such skill for photographying fish, lol.



I know I was admiring her photography skills if those are all her photos (I think they are!)

[Daniella]

I can't do anything for this spawning because I am leaving tomorrow for a week vacations. My neighbourg will come to feed the fish once a day. I think for this time it's pretty much doomed unless I would not go but everything is setup and reserved and I would lose the money for my reservation if I cancel now.

This was really unexpected so nothing was planned for it. They are in a community tank and I don't give much hope to the fry if it start to go swimming everywhere.

If they have spawned now, good chance they will do it again though.







Hi Daniella,

Looks like a very nice female heckle and a very rare event.
I see why you titled this thread "OMG", congratulations, well done. :)
Wish you the best is saving some of the fry if it is meant to be. :)
Take care,
Bill

[Eddie]

Not to put a damper on the vacation but this is something that does not happen EVER, female heckel spawning in a community tank with hybrids. I would cancel my vacation, remove all the other tankmates and raise the fish for an accomplishment, only a handful of people could say.


Eddie

[Moon]

It is very unusual for a female heckel to spawn. Most likely your heckel is a male spawining with a domestic female. It still is a very exiting event to have a heckel spawn. Hope the eggs hatch for you.
Joe

[Daniella]

Unfortunatly I cannot do that. I am not alone in this vacation and plans have been made for a long time. Hopefully they will spawn again, I don't see why not? What if I cancel my vacation and they eat the free swimming fry? I would have spoiled my vacation, lose the money for nothing.

It's their first spawning, so not sure what is going to happen. Anything goes.

I could remove the other fish and leave them alone and see what happen when I return. I have a 45 gallons aquarium and I could put my adult tiger with my 5 youngs in there.



Not to put a damper on the vacation but this is something that does not happen EVER, female heckel spawning in a community tank with hybrids. I would cancel my vacation, remove all the other tankmates and raise the fish for an accomplishment, only a handful of people could say.


Eddie

[Eddie]

Yeah, definitely take the others out and try to figure out a way to prevent the fry from going into your filter intake. ;)

[Daniella]

I posted a pic where you can see the breeding tube of the heckel. Can you id if it is a male or female? I really beleive it's a female from the behavior.

I would be very surprised if it was a male. And the eruption is definitly a male because it has spawned once with my female melon. Fighting between the eruption and the former boyfriend (checkerboard) was way too nasty for a female/male fight for another female. Why would a female fight with the male of a pair to gain access to breeding with another female? sounds a bit crazy no?

So that eruption finaly won and spawned with my female melon. That would have mean that a female was fighting with a male to conquer another female and then spwaned with her (2 females spawning together).

this is the pic were we can see the heckel breeding tube.

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/116603628/original



It is very unusual for a female heckel to spawn. Most likely your heckel is a male spawining with a domestic female. It still is a very exiting event to have a heckel spawn. Hope the eggs hatch for you.
Joe

[Daniella]

no way they are going through the filter intake because I have 2 pre-filter sponge. :)

but it's a 120 gallon, so they will get lost in no time I am afraid. Also they are used to eat 3 times a day and my neighbour can only feed them once..they will be hungry so maybe they will eat the fry.

sigh, this is a really bad timing :(



Yeah, definitely take the others out and try to figure out a way to prevent the fry from going into your filter intake. ;)

[Eddie]

no way they are going through the filter intake because I have 2 pre-filter sponge. :)

but it's a 120 gallon, so they will get lost in no time I am afraid. Also they are used to eat 3 times a day and my neighbour can only feed them once..they will be hungry so maybe they will eat the fry.

sigh, this is a really bad timing :(

Ah..you never know, bet you will be thinking about it the entire time you are on vacation.....anxiously waiting to return home. :D

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

yes I will be haunted by this for sure. Really bad timing and I am leaving but do not wish to leave, so it's not fun. I am also worried to leave this feeding chore to my neighbour..will he wash his hands? or put all sort of bad bacterias in my aquarium? I have all sort of worry crossing my mind.

If I had any chance of having the internet where I go I would love to install a web cam but it's deep in the wood so no internet.



Ah..you never know, bet you will be thinking about it the entire time you are on vacation.....anxiously waiting to return home. :D

Take care,

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

As I understand it, first spawns are seldom successful, regardless of circumstances. There''s really nothing you can do at this point, other than to go on vacation and enjoy yourself. Forget the job, the fish, the whatever stands in the way of having a really good time...

None of us is the master of the universe, so there are times when the best we can do is let it go... the likelihood of all your fish being just fine when you come home is pretty much overwhelming. Worrying and wishing things were different won't change that at all.

Edit- seems like an interesting pairing with both partners being red and blue, one striped, one spotted. somewhere down the road, they may produce some very beautiful, interesting and different sort of offspring...

[April]

just go and have fun..and whatever will be will be. you could come home to two fish carrying fry..or..then laying again or whatever. just be sure your neighbour doesnt overfeed. they parents really lay off food alot when caring for fry..so dont worry about it. they can go a long time with no food. id stick to clean food like bloodworms . one cube a day..and nothing else. no flake . too risky the neighbour will overfeed. id do that for all the tanks. tell her one cube a day..and nothing else. good luck..have a good trip and let us know when your back how it went.

[kaceyo]

If your still having issues with your water I wouldn't feed them at all while you're gone. They can go a week without food, no prob. Otherwise April has it right. One cube of BW's p/tank. Your neighbor can't overfeed that way and it's clean food.
Have fun on your trip,

Kacey

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Discus are like the people who keep them....

Sheldon

[Apistomaster]

It is unusual for female Heckels to breed in captivity, even within their own species. Probably the greatest obstacle to breeding Heckels is to get a female Heckel to spawn. Males frequently spawn with wild Blue/Browns and apparently domestics. These crosses are dead ends. Their progeny don't help getting any closer to the real goal.

Heckels are the most frustrating species for breeders wishing to produce purebeds.
That is why the Heckel subforum was begun in the first place. A pair of wild Heckels breeding and raising their fry is newsworthy because it still is such a rare event.

[Jhhnn]

It is unusual for female Heckels to breed in captivity, even within their own species. Probably the greatest obstacle to breeding Heckels is to get a female Heckel to spawn. Males frequently spawn with wild Blue/Browns and apparently domestics. These crosses are dead ends. Their progeny don't help getting any closer to the real goal.

Heckels are the most frustrating species for breeders wishing to produce purebeds.
That is why the Heckel subforum was begun in the first place. A pair of wild Heckels breeding and raising their fry is newsworthy because it still is such a rare event.

I'm not convinced wrt the whole "dead end" characterization. It seems clear that some hybridization and mixing occurs in wild fish- if it didn't, then fertile crosses wouldn't be possible...

That makes the whole idea of "pure" heckels a misconception. What seem to be "pure" heckels are fish where the appearance of other wild strains has been bred out by constant generational backcrossing into the general population of heckels. Aquarists can accomplish much the same results w/ linebreeding- father to daughter of a domestic female partner, then father to grand-daughter of that pairing, etc, and also by back-crossing part heckel progeny to other heckels...

If the goal is to create a lineage of domestic heckels, then that kind of breeding will create fish that are indistinguishable from so called "pure" heckels after a few generations...

[Apistomaster]

Only very little interspecies gene flow seems to occur rarely where S.haraldi and S.discus have overlapping ranges. Not too different than wolves hybridizing with coyotes. Despite these rare events the two species maintain their core genome and characteristic phenotypes.

Heckels have been crossed with wild S.haraldi in captivity many times but the genetic compatibilities seem to limit how many filial generations may be produced to olny a few generations with diminishing fertility .This has been what has been experienced with these crosses since the early 1960's. At the present time there is no indication a phenotype with stable classic Heckel characteristics will ever arise from a wild X domestic hybrid Discus line.

A more familiar and analogous circumstance exists among wolves, coyotes and domestic dogs.
A domestic dog with a wolf or coyote phenotype has never become a trusted reality nor is regarded as a domestic wolf or coyote even though a few of these hybrids have occurred in the wild. Yet Coyotes, wolves and dogs are generally regarded by even layman as different from each other.
This is actually an old line of discussion regarding Heckel hybrids. All that has ever come of it are some rather heated flame wars, a few intermdiate hybrids and still no wild Heckels have been successfully used to create a captive bred population one can order snd Heckel X Domestics have led to nothing anyone seems interested in creating due to lack of demand to the extant such hybrids were able to be sustained beyond a few generations.
Few discus breeders are willing to raise a hybrid which has very lttle demand.
There are many pages discussing many points of view in the archives of simplydiscus which could take days to review. Without at keast knowing where we have already been it is a difficult subject to discuss reasonably.

[Tito]

Perhaps an all female or all male tank to prevent breeding and the aggression that comes with it. African Cichlid Peacock keepers practice this - I myself have not done it so I have no real experience. Just an idea.

[Apistomaster]

The Discus species, especially Heckels and Greens don't easily produce hybrids with domestics.
S. haraldi, Blue/Brown Discus do readily breed with domestic strains. The domesticated discus are primarily the result of selective breeding of wild S. haraldi so they interbreed freely. S. haraldi is the most adaptable species of wild Discus and varies greatly in appearance over it's wide range. These qualities made it possible for so many domesticated color varieties to be selectively bred from a few unusually colorful or uniquely colored specimens. It has taken some 50 to 60 years to develop so many domestic color varieties and a lot of work by a lot of dedicated breeders.
Hybrids are never going to be very important in the Discus hobby. They obviously can bred in aquarium conditions but they are fairly rare.
The various Rift lake Cichlids species radiation arose rather recently in geological time so they have lower barriers that inhibit hybridization in aquarium conditions. I mean this in the context of fish from the same lake and belonging to the same genus. Their spawning behaviors also make hybrids easier.
Discus have to form a fairly strong pair bond, at least during their breeding season and their reproductive biology involves long term cooperation between a pair. The three species have fairly limited areas of overlapping ranges where natural hybrids do occasionally occur. In nature, I only know of wild caught hybrids being found between S. haraldi and S.discus. Even these areas are fairly unique in having both 2 species present in water that is on a borderline in which each species can live in and rarely breed together. For the most part, each species is isolated by distance and/or their preferred water chemistries pretty effectively. In the earliest days of Discus domestication, some work was done that resulted in the introduction of some Green Discus genes to domestic Discus but not much more hybridization experiments between S. haraldi and S. aequifasciata seems to have done since.
We see some captive Heckel, nearly always a male, that decides to breed with any available female but their own kind. A pretty weird thing, really.

[Jhhnn]

I think you're pretty far out on a limb, Apistomaster.

Not that I'm expert, at all, but it seems to me that domestic RSG's are descended from wild greens, and that leopards and other red spotted discus likely have roots there, as well. Not to mention the huge range of color and pattern in wild fish, some of which have obvious heckel ancestry-

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%e4nge/INDEX.htm

Just sayin'...

[Daniella]

Well I came back home and no fry left.

My neighbour said he saw a few tiny baby swim around the parents, but I had to leave all the fish in the main tank and could not remove them because my other tank was not cycled and there was 1ppm of nitrites in there.

My main tank had been cycled for about 2 days before I left. My neighbour feed the fish predefined portion that I had put in separated container, each labeled for each day, so there was no overfeeding possible. He fed them only bloodworms.

I had put my home made devider but it is not tight enough and when I had fry before they could go free swimming and cross it in many spots. I think they got eated by the other fishes on the other side of the devider.

So the spawning did produce free swimming but none survived. Meaning that I do have a female heckel which spawned with my male eruption. She definitly has a thing for that fish as she always was acting nice with him. She is not very nice to the other fish in the aquarium, sometimes even nasty. and she is only nice to that one and has been since day one.

I think the problem why people are having so much trouble to breed heckel females is because they don't have a female. I read that most female are not retained by the people who catch them because they are not colorfull enough. They put back in the water the females and keep the males because they have full body striation and females are darker and don't have much striations in the back.

This could explain why people have so much trouble to breed them, as they probably have all males with pale colors and full markings.

My female is dark, very dark and has only the front half with striations. She does not have much markings. I think she is going to spawn again with that male because I see her and the male doing the bowing and all the courtship.

Now all the fishes are together again as I removed the divider. The eruption and the heckel are in one side of the aquarium and the other couple occupy the opposite side. Nice thing is that male eruption finaly gave up on the female melon and seam to have settled on the heckel. Maybe I will have another spawning, but not sure what I would do because if I remove the heckel couple, I seriously doubt that she will lay eggs in a small aquarium. If she lay eggs in that big aquarium, I will have to find a better devider that will keep the fry at bay.

All my fish were well when I returned but they seemed a bit zombie like. I did a big water change and they returned to their old selves again. The water was a little cloudy when I returned with quite a bit of poop at the bottom but no ammonia and no nitrites, nitrates was at 10ppm so not so bad. Ph was stable as well, so all is good.

Anyone know of a good way to make a home made devider or where to buy one? I saw some sponge divider but I would like to know if anything else exist?

thanks everyone for the input.

[Daniella]

Yes that would definitly mean peace but the problem is knowing which is male and which is female. In my fish, none have definite sign to show this. My males don't have any apparent difference that I can see with the females. None have the long back fin.

The only way I can tell which is wich is from their behavior. I have 2 females now and I got a bit attached to them so I don't really want to get rid of them but if I have to replace them one day I will try my best to get males, all males. That surely exclude buying young discus.


Perhaps an all female or all male tank to prevent breeding and the aggression that comes with it. African Cichlid Peacock keepers practice this - I myself have not done it so I have no real experience. Just an idea.

[April]

i have the sponge that hans sells daniella.open cell foam. i could send you a piece. it works well. tight..as long as you cut it so it fits tight. babies wont get through. but id have a hydro sponge on both sides of it. air and water circulation or it goes stagnant. 36.00 its 20x20. the rest you could use for prefilters or throw in aquaclears or what have you.

[Apistomaster]

Hi jnnn,

You are incorrect about the ancestry of domestic RSG as the term is most widely used.
They are derived from red turquoise and would be best described as green spotted red turquoise. There are some few lines of real S.aequifasciatus bred selectively from good wild Red Spotted Green discus specimens. It is more challenging to breed wild Greens.. Good luck finding them; they are quite rare. See what you get when you order a domestic "Red Spotted Green."
Some lines of red spotted leopards appear which vaguely resemble a red spotted green but have no relationship to the real wild RSG.

The wild Discus most think are "obviously" Heckel hybrids are normal color variations of S. haraldi.

Daniealla,

Heckels sexes are identical. Pretty much like sexing wild Angels. Best guide to sexing them is observing pair behavior out of large groups or the rare occasion when breeding tubes may be actually seen.
It is very rare to have a female Heckel spawn let alone with a domestic male. You may have had a shot at actually breeding Heckels if you had happened to have a male Heckel with her. Nearly all the aquarium hybrids are male Heckel X Other; either a female wild haraldi or female domestic genetically 99% S.haraldi.

I do not take a position unless I am sure I have ducks, or discus if you will, in a row.

[Daniella]

I do have a pair with the heckel and the eruption but not sure how it's strong. Too bad I could not return in time to see the free swimming fry. I would have liked to see this.

I am not sure how strong the bond is between the pair because my eruption always prefered my red melon female and he's still fighting with my checkerboard male for her. Each day I can see little fights here and there between those 2 so not sure he's much interested in the heckel.

when the heckel had spawned I had removed my couple melon/checkerboard to a smaller aquarium about a week before so they were alone and the eruption had no other female to breed with than the heckel. If I want them to breed again I will have to put them alone in a large tank where they will feel comfortable or find another place for my red female melon and her mate. There was only one adult with them (a male pigeon blood) and he was at the far end constantly.

Even if I would buy other heckel, there is no garantee that she would breed with any of them because she is really picky as to wich she likes and wich she doesnt. It's quite obvious from her behavior wich fish she likes though :)

It's too bad that a female like that is not part of a breeding program heckel to heckel because I do think there would be a good chance of her breeding with a male. She is very friendly and very bold and I can see she is a dominant fish.

I don't know anyone in my area who is dedicated to breeding heckel because I would probably try to arrange something with her for a while to see if she does breed with another heckel.



Hi jnnn,
Heckels sexes are identical. Pretty much like sexing wild Angels. Best guide to sexing them is observing pair behavior out of large groups or the rare occasion when breeding tubes may be actually seen.
It is very rare to have a female Heckel spawn let alone with a domestic male. You may have had a shot at actually breeding Heckels if you had happened to have a male Heckel with her. Nearly all the aquarium hybrids are male Heckel X Other; either a female wild haraldi or female domestic genetically 99% S.haraldi.

I do not take a position unless I am sure I have ducks, or discus if you will, in a row.

[Daniella]

20 inches is a little short but I could manage with a little lower water level. My aquarium is 18" x 22" high.

each time I put a devider, I always get the water from one side of it and expel it on the other side so that there is water circulating all around. I would probably have to put one of my heater on the other side as well but I am interested in buying this. Please send me a private message if you have one (brand new) for sale.

I have a good strong air pump so I could put hydrosponges as well.

thanks.


i have the sponge that hans sells daniella.open cell foam. i could send you a piece. it works well. tight..as long as you cut it so it fits tight. babies wont get through. but id have a hydro sponge on both sides of it. air and water circulation or it goes stagnant. 36.00 its 20x20. the rest you could use for prefilters or throw in aquaclears or what have you.

[lemondiscus]

Even if I would buy other heckel, there is no garantee that she would breed with any of them because she is really picky as to wich she likes and wich she doesnt. It's quite obvious from her behavior wich fish she likes though :)

It's too bad that a female like that is not part of a breeding program heckel to heckel because I do think there would be a good chance of her breeding with a male. She is very friendly and very bold and I can see she is a dominant fish.

I don't know anyone in my area who is dedicated to breeding heckel because I would probably try to arrange something with her for a while to see if she does breed with another heckel.

I have a female Heckel and I have seen her tube so she IS verified as a female. She is a VERY picky fish as well. I had Domestics in with her and a few Male (Verified by tubes and 1 male paired with my blue turk) Domestics were courting her with no result.

I removed all of the Domestics leaving her with what I THINK are 2 males... She jitters and either 1 of the 2 MAY answer back with another jitter but She does not seem entirely interested in either of them. She only seems like she is about 60% interested in breeding. I have what I THINK is a male that is almost ALWAYS around her...

As Apistomaster said, there is NO way to identify them by really anything. Vents are located in a SLIGHTLY different spot than domestics (almost touching the anal fin) and it is not often they put tubes down. Even behavior does not work because this female is THE ALPHA of the tank! Even with the Domestics she dominated the tank!

The pairing behavior almost always starts on a 50% WC but still with no result.

So my point is, a female Heckel to pick a male IS a rare event and just because you put her in with other Heckels that are THOUGHT to be males she may never like any of them. Also the move may not be effective. It takes a LONG time for a Heckel to adapt to a new tank IMO and from what I read.

My idea is IF I get lucky enough to get a Heckel pair is to remove all other fish and leave them in my display tank to do their business instead of moving them...

[Daniella]

Yes I think that too. Although from the behavior I think it was easy in my case to tell my heckel was a female because of her behavior with the other fish. In fact it is easy to tell all my adults apart just from their behavior.

From what I saw, the females are more dominant than males and they start the shaking, not the males. My heckel is also the dominant fish except that she has resistance when my female melon is there.. Both females are equaly dominant and females only fight with females. In my tank, males always give way to a female and they never fight with any of my females, they just give up lol!

The female heckel dominate all males except she does not have any bit of aggression for my eruption. I think they are like open books..very easy to see what they like or not.

Like you said, the best way would be to remove all other fish and leave the couple with their eggs.

Mine took quite a short time to get comfortable since she breed 2 months and half after I got her. I don't think she would have done this if I did not have the male eruption. Not sure why but she's nuts about him. She follow him and fight other fish with him when he's in a fight. It's fascinating to watch their behavior in general.

Mine spawned in awfull water conditions, go figure :) And it is her who really initiated the courtship with the male. The male at first was not interested in her one bit.




As Apistomaster said, there is NO way to identify them by really anything. Vents are located in a SLIGHTLY different spot than domestics (almost touching the anal fin) and it is not often they put tubes down. Even behavior does not work because this female is THE ALPHA of the tank! Even with the Domestics she dominated the tank!

The pairing behavior almost always starts on a 50% WC but still with no result.

So my point is, a female Heckel to pick a male IS a rare event and just because you put her in with other Heckels that are THOUGHT to be males she may never like any of them. Also the move may not be effective. It takes a LONG time for a Heckel to adapt to a new tank IMO and from what I read.

My idea is IF I get lucky enough to get a Heckel pair is to remove all other fish and leave them in my display tank to do their business instead of moving them...

[lemondiscus]

I also found like you stated that she wants to spawn in what is considered improper PH conditions (in my case)

I dont use RO, I use tap (dechlorinated of course) and my tap is PH 7. I use peat moss in my filters but with 50% WC daily my peat cant keep up.

Its the male that seems to not have the interest at the moment. He has taken guard over a few things in the tank (a piece of driftwood, a piece of slate) but she seems to want the filter intake which is too short for them to spawn on really.... Because its not her "ideal" spot it seems she just does not do it.

You are right about the behavior observations and I noticed in my tank it is more the females that are the bullies! The males seem to be VERY passive (only with the females though) and they DO give up when attacked by a female dropping their heads down and turning away.

Right now in my 125 I have 3 Heckels and I think its 1 female and 2 males by behavior ALTHOUGH I have seen the females tube so I know she is a she.... the males refuse to drop their tubes down.

In my observation this is 100% different than with domestics where the females have their tube out all day everyday but the females dont have their tubes down....

In my observation Heckels are DEFINITELY a group of their own displaying completely different attitudes and behavior than the other discus. Even the shaking is MUCH LESS obvious than with domestics. The domestics that paired shook A LOT, the Heckels just jitter here and there and also use their pelvic fins to "rub themselves" but its not quite the same courtship ritual as the domestics I had pair.... Maybe mine are not pairing, but it REALLY seems they are.

Did your female seem MUCH more subtle than a domestic? Or is this just me?

[Daniella]

Yes much more subtle than my domestic. My female melon shake like 50% of the time and quite strongly. With the heckel I had to pay attention to see it and it was more obvious when the male eruption would bow to the female melon and she would come by his side and bow too as if he was bowing to her, poor thing.

It was sometimes sad to see how she was trying to get his attention but he only had eye for the other female. He was even chasing her away sometimes. He only pay attention to her when the other female is not there, so maybe she will just give up on him, not sure.

Right now the heckel is at one side of the aquarium and the male eruption is trying to win the red melon female and fighting with her mate (checkerboard). This had been going on since yesterday. snip...







Did your female seem MUCH more subtle than a domestic? Or is this just me?

[lemondiscus]

Right now the heckel is at one side of the aquarium and the male eruption is trying to win the red melon female and fighting with her mate (checkerboard). This had been going on since yesterday. snip...
The waiting game! lol....

If only things happened faster.

I am glad to hear that they are more subtle. I was worried it was just me... even the males are not as obvious. She is "herding" the male she likes back on the half of the tank that is "hers"

I have heard so many on here say you CANT breed Heckels in an aquarium... I have never thought it was impossible as there are those claiming it happened... most breeders dont want to breed them because they are not colorful enough, and they just are simply harder to get from the wild (I can only get these here in Virginia RARELY!)

That combined with the subtle courtship behavior and the almost impossible sexing ability, thats IMO why they are not common-place and domesticated. I stare at my Heckels about 3-6 hours a day and they are BY FAR not obvious on what they are doing right away.

Also IME/IMO although its easily argued, I DONT think that low PH levels are the way to go. I had a guy I respect greatly at a LFS explain why and this is what he said: Wild Discus are collected from puddles and shallows during the dry season. This time of the year there is not much water movement and a LOT of decaying matter from the shores that was consumed by the water. Since this is the time collection is done, most tests show VERY acidic water. However Discus spawn in the rainy season and these same areas become more neutral during the rainy season due to the increased water movement.

What I have done is I did WCs 50% 1 time a week with peat in my filter holding my PH @ 6.2.... Now I brought it back up and WC 50% daily and maintaining a PH of 7.

So your bad water quality mimics the dry season and as you started to correct it, to the fish it was becoming the rainy season. IMO even Heckels can TOLERATE less than ideal water conditions for a short period in time as they would NEED this ability in the wild to survive. Then as the water cleans up they are thinking it is the rainy season and time to spawn.

Again I am by NO MEANS an expert but this DOES make sense!

[plecocicho]

The differences in sexual behevior clearly show difference between two species. Actually Bleher took measures also during the flood season and they dont look so much different.

[Daniella]

I thought that females were darker and less colorfull than males? At least that's what I read here in this forum, that most females get put back in the water because they are not colorful enough and males get picked up because they are lighter and more colorfull with more striations. Is that correct?



The differences in sexual behevior clearly show difference between two species. Actually Bleher took measures also during the flood season and they dont look so much different.

[plecocicho]

Collecters strike for alpha discus or at least beta discus. Those heckels have blue colour on the cheeks (blueface) and can be both male or female. sex doesnt matter in discus world.

[lemondiscus]

I thought that females were darker and less colorfull than males? At least that's what I read here in this forum, that most females get put back in the water because they are not colorful enough and males get picked up because they are lighter and more colorfull with more striations. Is that correct?
I dont think there is a color difference in males or females... if there were it would be easier to pick a male and a female (however my female has red in her as well as blue... the males have only blue and are more grayish in the body than the female BUT I personally dont rely on that)

Again I am by NO MEANS an expert and yes there are TONS of more qualified members on this forum than myself (Hans, Blecher and MANY OTHERS maybe even including yourself Daniella!)

(Disclaimer: I actually feel quite stupid on this board myself when it comes to keeping Discus... I am one of the younger ones on the board (27) and only have been keeping discus for 2 years now. I have had good times and bad times with them but I have had my Heckels for almost a year and from what I have read I am doing a good job to have them still alive considering some of the mistakes I have made and some of the problems I have encountered. Still I am BY FAR one of the least qualified on here barely knowing the difference in the domestic strains. I honestly dont care much for domesticated discus anymore after messing with the Heckels and probably wont continue with domestics in 10 years... BUT the domestics have been my learning experience over the years.

I am however NOT NEW to fishkeeping. I used to breed Oscars and have had several of them until my female jumped out of the tank. I gave up on them at that time and went to discus and angels... I bred angels for about a year and sold my breeding pair to dedicate my hobby and tank space to discus. Today... well thats all I keep.)

[Daniella]

I am even less experienced than you are. I have a heckel (only one) for only 3 months and I have discus for only 8 months. I too had my bad experiences with them and the plague (or at least something with the plague symptoms).

Must be doing something right though if she had spawned :)


I dont think there is a color difference in males or females... if there were it would be easier to pick a male and a female (however my female has red in her as well as blue... the males have only blue and are more grayish in the body than the female BUT I personally dont rely on that)

Again I am by NO MEANS an expert and yes there are TONS of more qualified members on this forum than myself (Hans, Blecher and MANY OTHERS maybe even including yourself Daniella!)

(Disclaimer: I actually feel quite stupid on this board myself when it comes to keeping Discus... I am one of the younger ones on the board (27) and only have been keeping discus for 2 years now. I have had good times and bad times with them but I have had my Heckels for almost a year and from what I have read I am doing a good job to have them still alive considering some of the mistakes I have made and some of the problems I have encountered. Still I am BY FAR one of the least qualified on here barely knowing the difference in the domestic strains. I honestly dont care much for domesticated discus anymore after messing with the Heckels and probably wont continue with domestics in 10 years... BUT the domestics have been my learning experience over the years.

I am however NOT NEW to fishkeeping. I used to breed Oscars and have had several of them until my female jumped out of the tank. I gave up on them at that time and went to discus and angels... I bred angels for about a year and sold my breeding pair to dedicate my hobby and tank space to discus. Today... well thats all I keep.)

[lemondiscus]

I am even less experienced than you are. I have a heckel (only one) for only 3 months and I have discus for only 8 months. I too had my bad experiences with them and the plague (or at least something with the plague symptoms).

Must be doing something right though if she had spawned :)

As have I had plague once... lost 2 of 10 from it.... Tank stunk, fish were white with slime buildup... without a doubt, plague....

Definitely a fun hobby though, it makes you think and experiment!

Yes to get a female to spawn... you MUST be doing something right! (to a degree I must be to only loosing 2 to the plague, recovering a Heckel from HITH and another from internal hex and keeping what I have had for about a year.... I also have 2 other pairs now in my domestics.... I am flat out of tank space now with a 20 gallon, a 30 gallon, a 55 gallon and my 125 all occupied with discus... I NEVER thought this day would come.... )

[Apistomaster]

I sold the 10 Heckels I had raised rom 3 inch juveniles acquired a little over 4 years ago.
There were 3 pairs that formed after they matured. They were almost cookie cutter identical except for the little variations normal among all individual Heckels.

The females tend to choose an area which has a likely useful spawning substrate and she will stay close to that potential site most of her time. The males guard the boundaries of the pair's chosen territory but regularly joins the female near the likely spawning site. They do much of there pair bonding ritual displays at these "quaility time" periods.

Heckels are by evolutionary adaptation, always a black water species, which is one of the reasons why they have such limited exposure to the S. haraldi found in clear/white water.
Heckels, even outside of the low water season are always found in extremely soft acid water.
Virtually no measurable hardness and in a ph rarely more than 4.5 and more typically, between 3.5 and 4.0.

The new owner has set up a couple of the pairs in Catalpa stain straight RO water which has had the pH adjusted down to 3.5 to 4.0 using Muriatic acid. In these more natural conditions the Heckel are much happier and have become more brilliantly colored than when These are the conditions in which spawning Heckels will most likely occur. I kept them in local tap water in which spawning is extremely unlikely.
In the photo below you can see the most dominant pair and the wide perimeter they maintained around the wood closest to them which they regularly cleaned. This is the stage many of us experienced in keeping Heckels often reach. I have been there before, beginning as far back as 1970. 10 randomly selected adult Heckels. You can see what a uniform appearance Heckels have regardless of sex.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckelsfeedbag0003.jpg

The same fish, different view.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/3-22Heckel2.jpg

Same fish at about 1 year old.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckels0003rs-1.jpg

[Eddie]

I sold the 10 Heckels I had raised rom 3 inch juveniles acquired a little over 4 years ago.
There were 3 pairs that formed after they matured. They were almost cookie cutter identical except for the little variations normal among all individual Heckels.

The females tend to choose an area which has a likely useful spawning substrate and she will stay close to that potential site most of her time. The males guard the boundaries of the pair's chosen territory but regularly joins the female near the likely spawning site. They do much of there pair bonding ritual displays at these "quaility time" periods.

Heckels are by evolutionary adaptation, always a black water species, which is one of the reasons why they have such limited exposure to the S. haraldi found in clear/white water.
Heckels, even outside of the low water season are always found in extremely soft acid water.
Virtually no measurable hardness and in a ph rarely more than 4.5 and more typically, between 3.5 and 4.0.

The new owner has set up a couple of the pairs in Catalpa stain straight RO water which has had the pH adjusted down to 3.5 to 4.0 using Muriatic acid. In these more natural conditions the Heckel are much happier and have become more brilliantly colored than when These are the conditions in which spawning Heckels will most likely occur. I kept them in local tap water in which spawning is extremely unlikely.
In the photo below you can see the most dominant pair and the wide perimeter they maintained around the wood closest to them which they regularly cleaned. This is the stage many of us experienced in keeping Heckels often reach. I have been there before, beginning as far back as 1970. 10 randomly selected adult Heckels. You can see what a uniform appearance Heckels have regardless of sex.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckelsfeedbag0003.jpg

The same fish, different view.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/3-22Heckel2.jpg

Same fish at about 1 year old.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Heckels0003rs-1.jpg

Larry, how did you know you had any females if they never spawned for you? :confused:

[lemondiscus]

Eddie - You can tell the females and the males because in my case I have caught them with their tubes down. That is probably the only way to tell and they dont seem to do it for very long and not that often so it requires close observation.

Larry - You are right about the pairing behavior. I see the same thing with mine. The female has to pick the male and the male has to like the spot she chose. Once there they guard it and bod when at the site.

I read every post you make and dedicate my full attention so I can absorb what you have to say. Again I am by no means experienced with discus and rather young on keeping them (the next generation per say).

I have gone a bit unorthodox in keeping them myself and seem to have got better results by doing so. For a while I had the low PH but they did not seem too interested in doing anything there. Boosting WC and going more neutral has created my pairs. I did have them with domestics (all domestics now have been moved to another tank) and the domestics started pairing in the display with them which may have sparked the Heckels interest.

There HAS to be a way to get them to spawn in a tank and raise young... there ARE documented pairs of Heckel Female x Domestic Male AND Heckel Male x Domestic Female. With that in mind IT HAS to be possible for the Heckel x Heckel spawn!

What I think is there is a missing piece to the "formula" of spawning. With domestics its (Water Changes + GOOD Food + Males and Females = Spawning Pairs). SOMETHING is missing with the Heckels though.

I am mid experment now leaving ONLY the female Heckel and the male Heckel SHE like (I had a male that liked her but he would not answer her "jitters/shaking" so she lost interest in him and went to the other male). I removed ALL other leaving just those 2 in my 125 gallon display. This is different than the standard remove the pair.

We all know Heckels dont like to be moved so I thought instead of moving the pair remove everything else (I dont know if this has been done before but hey, its all about experimenting).

In my situation its the female that seems to have more interest in spawning than the males.... Again, being rather new at keeping discus I am not sure if this is how it normally works. This is my situation though and behavior varies a bit depending on environment from what I have seen.

Again I will re-iterate, I AM NOT a person to listen to! I am too new at keeping these fish compared to many others to be words to pay attention to.... Its just what I have done and my thoughts. As you see from earlier posts I was wrong in what I was thinking, it does not mean however that I am going to deviate from the experiment much but the information may help guide me for future work.

[Daniella]

Very nice fishes!

why did you sell them?


I sold the 10 Heckels I had raised rom 3 inch juveniles acquired a little over 4 years ago.
There were 3 pairs that formed after they matured. They were almost cookie cutter identical except for the little variations normal among all individual Heckels.

[Apistomaster]

Very nice fishes!

why did you sell them?
You have read that I have been keeping and breeding Discus most of my life, These Heckels were hardly my first. I needed more tank space for getting a group of wild Red Spotted Green Discus.
In the last 5 decades of many other experts trying to breed Heckels only a handful of people have ever done it.
However I have successfully bred wild Greens and Blue/Brown before so I know they are not a lost causes. I had all the fun I wanted to get from my last group and sold them to one of the few people I believe has a reasonable chance of breeding them.
Heckels can live in water with the less extreme low pH and softness than they are native to but a successful spawning of Heckels has never occurred outside those extremely low water chemistry parameters.

I don't what it is with you about the sexes of Heckels issues that you do not seem to get. When large groups of randomly caught Heckels are kept then both sexes will be present. It isn't like they wear a sign on them saying which sex they are. It is a fact that healthy well maintained Heckels in less than water ideal, compared to their naive conditions, still form pairs and get as far as cleaning a spawning site even making trial spawning runs. It is just harder than Hell to get the female Heckel into full breeding condition. Personally I suspect that Heckels would become more likely to spawn if they were kept in tanks of 1000's of gal and at the right chemistry. Heckels are very social Discus compared to the other 2 species, often found in large groups of 50 to 100 and this is not easy to replicate in normal aquariums of only 125 to 240 gal capacity.
But I have nothing to prove. My peers agree with me only some haven't yet reached the same conclusion I have about the need for very large groups in enormous tanks.
I don't mind sharing what I know but I will not waste my time on those who have not paid their dues nor fully caught up on the literature of what is known about these fish but still ignore what very experienced Discus breeders choose to share.
Breeding wild Discus is much more challenging tha breeding domestics and the Heckel present the most difficult challenge of all.
I am the guy who suggested the formation of the Heckel sub-forum in the first place to have a central place to share what we learn and any progress we made in our attempts to figure out how to breed Heckels. They are so different as to require a brain trust of skilled wild discus breeders to even have a chance of learning from each other and perhaps finding the solution to the challenges Heckels present.
I breed fish for fun and the challenge but primarily for the money. Heckels were not contributing towards earning their keep but my friend who has them now is willing to go the extra mile I was not towards breeding them. They are in the hands of one who is also working on breeding wild Altum Angelfish. The Altums have very much the same water chemistry requirements. This is significant and relevant to breeding Heckels because the Altum Angelfish is the Heckel of the wild Angelfish. One tough nut to crack and another species which has only been bred a handful of times in their history as an aquarium fish. They also come from waters with no measurable hardness and a pH of 3.5 to 4.0. He has a massive 300 gpd RO unit which helps making frequent large water changes of the right chemistry for the Heckels much easier.
I find breeding fancy dwarf plecos to be a more practical use of my limited space.
I already breed species which are no longer allowed out of Brazil and added $1500 worth of Hypancistrus zebra(10 fish) to my core of species I want to breed in addition to the L134, L260 and L333 already breeding.
I haven't given up on Discus and I have set up several pairs of wild S. haraldi, Nhamunda Blue Discus in their own breeding tanks.

[lemondiscus]

I don't mind sharing what I know but I will not waste my time on those who have not paid their dues nor fully caught up on the literature of what is known about these fish but still ignore what very experienced Discus breeders choose to share.


I do hope that this was not directed towards myself because as I stated I do listen to EVERYTHING you have to say! I have MUCH respect from all of your threads you have written (yes pertaining to Heckels I have followed all of your posts). I have spent many months reading before I ever actually joined the site or contributed anything on here because truth be told, I have nothing to actually contribute... just a newbie learning the ropes! :)

As I stated, I am rather new and learning.... I am one of those people that DOES realize that no matter how much you know, you will NEVER know it all! ;)

[Apistomaster]

Hi lemon,
Not to worry. You are exactly the kind of person new to the hobby who is soaking all the information you can and won't remain a "beginner" for long.

And I'm not suggesting I know everything. I just have been involved with wild Discus from the very beginning of my interest in Discus and began keeping all three species now over 40 years ago and began breeding wild Blue/Browns and green Discus long before ever getting around to any domestic types.
I just sometimes get prickly whenever beginners appear to disregard what anyone with a good deal of experience with breeding and keeping all of the wild Discus species shares freely.
I would definitely listen carefully to what anyone who has mastered breeding Heckels has to say.
The Heckels have long frustrated the best efforts of many an experienced hand at breeding wild Discus.There have been very few breeders who have bred Heckels over the past 5 decades and not one has led to establishing a stable strain of pure bred Heckels in the hobby. There has never been a time in the history of S. discus in the hobby when so many skilled breeders have applied themselves to the challenge of breeding Heckels. If a major breakthrough is imminent, it should be now. That said, we do know more about Heckels than at any previous time in the past and many of us have come very close. We have had fish that are obvious pairs going through all the right motions right up to but not quite the actual spawning let alone raising purebred Heckels from wild caught fish. This is what is so frustrating. There is no shortage of documented reports of male Heckels spawning with either wild S. haraldi or domesticated females. All these experiences point to the problem being our seemingly inability to bring wild females into breeding condition without knowing why this is so. Few disagree with this assessment who have tried very hard to breed Heckels themselves.
Some few do not agree but their evidence is usually anecdotal and they have no experience breeding other wild Discus nor often any experience with even keeping wild Heckels personally.

[lemondiscus]

Hi lemon,
Not to worry. You are exactly the kind of person new to the hobby who is soaking all the information you can and won't remain a "beginner" for long.

And I'm not suggesting I know everything. I just have been involved with wild Discus from the very beginning of my interest in Discus and began keeping all three species now over 40 years ago and began breeding wild Blue/Browns and green Discus long before ever getting around to any domestic types.
I just sometimes get prickly whenever beginners appear to disregard what anyone with a good deal of experience with breeding and keeping all of the wild Discus species shares freely.
I would definitely listen carefully to what anyone who has mastered breeding Heckels has to say.
The Heckels have long frustrated the best efforts of many an experienced hand at breeding wild Discus.There have been very few breeders who have bred Heckels over the past 5 decades and not one has led to establishing a stable strain of pure bred Heckels in the hobby. There has never been a time in the history of S. discus in the hobby when so many skilled breeders have applied themselves to the challenge of breeding Heckels. If a major breakthrough is imminent, it should be now. That said, we do know more about Heckels than at any previous time in the past and many of us have come very close. We have had fish that are obvious pairs going through all the right motions right up to but not quite the actual spawning let alone raising purebred Heckels from wild caught fish. This is what is so frustrating. There is no shortage of documented reports of male Heckels spawning with either wild S. haraldi or domesticated females. All these experiences point to the problem being our seemingly inability to bring wild females into breeding condition without knowing why this is so. Few disagree with this assessment who have tried very hard to breed Heckels themselves.
Some few do not agree but their evidence is usually anecdotal and they have no experience breeding other wild Discus nor often any experience with even keeping wild Heckels personally.
I enjoy the colorations and personalities of the wilds FAR GREATER than the domesticated strains.

The whole Heckel thing I got into was the challenge of keeping the "hardest" of the discus to keep.

I enjoy the whole hobby of discus for the fun, learning and thinking that is required to do it. It IS NOT for the lazy, the people on a whim or like you said those that want to do it THEIR way... I mean, there ARE many ways to do things with Discus... everything I have read on this forum and other sites points to this... however THERE ARE TONS of definite no nos in the hobby...

I am also a member on another forum as well that is more for general fishkeeping and not specializing in discus and I cant tell you the number of people I have stressed "If you are going to get into discus, buy ADULTS and buy 6 or more!" Some have listened, others have not... those that didnt... well, now they have none or less than they started with!

I know this stuff because I went through it already and even I am afraid of the care of keeping Juvies even though now have 2 breeding pairs of domestics...

Eventually though I want to be like you and handle the wilds and not so much of the domestics... The breeding thing for me IS NOT for the money but the experience and also the joy of seeing the life, development and reproduction of discus. I am still fascinated by the parental feedings... I have not seen it first hand yet but its a goal I have... Along with my seemingly futile attempt at breeding these Heckels...


Edit ---- Mastering Heckels... lmao... Nothing I have read has said ANYTHING about anyone mastering them! They are a beast of their own that us humans are along for the ride on! lol

[Daniella]

I guess that was directed to me, but I read this thing about females heckel on the nada forum and here is the link:

http://forum.discusnada.org/showthread.php?p=5921#post5921

Maybe the problem is not that I do not sink in things that people say, but rather that I sink in too much of what I read, at least if that's not true.

If it is not true than it is not true.. I have no idea what is true or not anymore. I thought it was an interesting reading.

As for my heckel, she has spawned again yesterday evening (guessing) or early this morning. I found them this morning with the eggs (did not see it this time). 2 times a week apart. Water is TDS 150 and Ph is 7.5.

Not sure what will happen though since there is no devider and I had no time to put one this morning when I saw this. My male eruption is wierd. Was fighting yesterday like crazy to be with the melon female but this morning both couple are on their side of the aquarium and the eruption is with the heckel. Seem that my pair checkerboard and red melon has very strong bonds now.




Hi lemon,
Not to worry. You are exactly the kind of person new to the hobby who is soaking all the information you can and won't remain a "beginner" for long.

And I'm not suggesting I know everything. I just have been involved with wild Discus from the very beginning of my interest in Discus and began keeping all three species now over 40 years ago and began breeding wild Blue/Browns and green Discus long before ever getting around to any domestic types.
I just sometimes get prickly whenever beginners appear to disregard what anyone with a good deal of experience with breeding and keeping all of the wild Discus species shares freely.
I would definitely listen carefully to what anyone who has mastered breeding Heckels has to say.
The Heckels have long frustrated the best efforts of many an experienced hand at breeding wild Discus.There have been very few breeders who have bred Heckels over the past 5 decades and not one has led to establishing a stable strain of pure bred Heckels in the hobby. There has never been a time in the history of S. discus in the hobby when so many skilled breeders have applied themselves to the challenge of breeding Heckels. If a major breakthrough is imminent, it should be now. That said, we do know more about Heckels than at any previous time in the past and many of us have come very close. We have had fish that are obvious pairs going through all the right motions right up to but not quite the actual spawning let alone raising purebred Heckels from wild caught fish. This is what is so frustrating. There is no shortage of documented reports of male Heckels spawning with either wild S. haraldi or domesticated females. All these experiences point to the problem being our seemingly inability to bring wild females into breeding condition without knowing why this is so. Few disagree with this assessment who have tried very hard to breed Heckels themselves.
Some few do not agree but their evidence is usually anecdotal and they have no experience breeding other wild Discus nor often any experience with even keeping wild Heckels personally.

[wgtaylor]

Daniella,
I hope you have better luck with this batch of fry and are able to save some. Exciting to have a female heckel spawn.

I read that post on nada a while back and thought it intriguing but have seen other heckel female with full color that have spawned. I agree, especially with wilds, you cannot tell sex by looking but it sounded good.
I hear you when you say your not sure what to believe anymore. It has always been that way, everyone that wrote a new book on discus had to generate enough controversy to sell new books. Not everything could be believed but makes for good reading. :D

I'm not sure why anyone on this site would get upset with any question being asked about discus, that is why we are all here. Ignore opinions and try to extract only facts. I think you have done well with your heckel and I would bet there are some that are going back over your prior posts to try to see if they can find what triggered your heckel to spawn. You have succeeded where others have not. I for one appreciate your open sharing of your experiences with your discus and wish you the best with this spawn. :)
Take care,
Bill


I guess that was directed to me, but I read this thing about females heckel on the nada forum and here is the link:

http://forum.discusnada.org/showthread.php?p=5921#post5921

Maybe the problem is not that I do not sink in things that people say, but rather that I sink in too much of what I read, at least if that's not true.

If it is not true than it is not true.. I have no idea what is true or not anymore. I thought it was an interesting reading.

As for my heckel, she has spawned again yesterday evening (guessing) or early this morning. I found them this morning with the eggs (did not see it this time). 2 times a week apart. Water is TDS 150 and Ph is 7.5.

Not sure what will happen though since there is no devider and I had no time to put one this morning when I saw this. My male eruption is wierd. Was fighting yesterday like crazy to be with the melon female but this morning both couple are on their side of the aquarium and the eruption is with the heckel. Seem that my pair checkerboard and red melon has very strong bonds now.

[Daniella]

I surely wish I knew what trigger her to breed. My water is really not the best around and Ph is far from their acidic water. She went through stressfull PP treatments, being moved in QT for these treatments, first time with a net and second time with a bucket.

I give her plenty of white worms. When I was breeding chiclids I used white worms to trigger their breeding and it worked well.

I am sure people have tried all this and probably she just spawn because she wants to and she really like this male. Each discus is unique and have its own personality I guess.

The male is getting a bit aggressive with her though and does not want to let her take care of the eggs... Not sure why because she did not eat the eggs last time.

Glad to know about the heckel color for male and female are the same as I beleived what I read there.




Daniella,
I hope you have better luck with this batch of fry and are able to save some. Exciting to have a female heckel spawn.

I read that post on nada a while back and thought it intriguing but have seen other heckel female with full color that have spawned. I agree, especially with wilds, you cannot tell sex by looking but it sounded good.
I hear you when you say your not sure what to believe anymore. It has always been that way, everyone that wrote a new book on discus had to generate enough controversy to sell new books. Not everything could be believed but makes for good reading. :D

I'm not sure why anyone on this site would get upset with any question being asked about discus, that is why we are all here. Ignore opinions and try to extract only facts. I think you have done well with your heckel and I would bet there are some that are going back over your prior posts to try to see if they can find what triggered your heckel to spawn. You have succeeded where others have not. I for one appreciate your open sharing of your experiences with your discus and wish you the best with this spawn. :)
Take care,
Bill

[Daniella]

Yesterday I came back from work and the eggs had been eated. The 2 couples were near by each other on the same driftwood and there was no more major fighting.

I will order a separator if I can find one I like and will try this again. I am sure if I move the heckel she will not spawn again. I tried moving my other pair to my 20 gallons aquarium and they would not spawn either.

[rwong2k]

can't wait to get an update on this pair breeding!