Basic feeding

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Today there are many varied ideas on feeding our beloved discus. In the beginning it was very hard to feed the fish. Many ideas were being tried. But i would have to say tubiflex worms were the food of choice way back when. Tubiflex worms are worms that breed in water that is heavily saturated with nitogeon enriched water and earth from outflows of sue-or water. Yuk..Try getting a wild discus to eat flake. Especially one fresh off the boat. Or plane for that matter. Modern discus today have flake food which they luv and FBW and Beef Heart mix already made up and easy to buy. Frozen shrimp, freeze dried krill. Its incredible. I have always fed my fish SEA FOODS. Just my way. I have a good recipe which i have used for years which gives the fish a great and easy to digest table
note...each prt equals 2ounces
1. Three part peeled and cooked shrimp
2. One part kelp
3. One prt dried cod
4. One prt clams
5. One prt gelatin
6. One prt salt water salmon

Blend all prts except the gelatin together in a large bowl..Finally mixing it down to a paste like texture. Mix gelatin with proper amount of water and miix this into your paste like mix. Blend this again
and place in a mold at least one inch thick. Place this into freezer
The mold should be lined with wax paper for easy removal. After frozen cut in 4 ounce chunks. Wrap each chunk in wax paper and place in a freezer bag.

Slice with a very sharp thin bladed knife. Slice very fine shaving about a 16th of an inch. feed for 3 minutes.. If they eat everything then feed a little more

Sheldon

[DiscusKeeper403]

Thanks for sharing your recipe. Seafood mix is common these days, a lot of people use it, as you say, a great food. Healthy, fresh and simple!!

[plecocicho]

Seafood mix is way better than turkey/beef heart mixtures. You cant introduce any disease, all fats are fluid at room temperature, they are rich in omega 3 fats and other important fatty acids. Only draw back would be, if they contained poison from cyanobacteria blooms. But since ingrediants are meant for the peoples, i guess this hazard is very rare.

[tcyiu]

Why cooked shrimp? Wouldn't raw shrimp be more nutritious?

Tim

[mmorris]

This might be useful:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72072&highlight=thiamine

[tcyiu]

Thanks. I learned something new. BTW, here is another article on wet web media http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

I've extracted the two quotes that interested me:

1) "While it has not yet been scientifically proven that pet fish suffering from the above mentioned symptoms have Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, the parallels with their food fish relatives are striking. The problems of thiaminase are now well known in the professional fields of animal nutrition (e.g. fish farms), but so far this information has not been widely taken up by aquarists and pet owners. But it is clear that those hobbyists keeping large predatory fish and other carnivorous animals need to be familiar with the problem of Thiamine Deficiency Syndrome, and use that information to make sensible choices when selecting food for their livestock."

2) "While freezing does not destroy thiaminase, heating it will. This is why cooked fish is not dangerous with regard to thiaminase for human or animal nutrition. From the perspective of a fishkeeper, the big drawback to cooking food is that heating destroys a lot of the useful nutrients as well. While omnivorous humans compensate for that by eating a varied diet containing both raw and cooked plant and animal foods, piscivorous fish have no such option. They cannot be fed cooked fish and expected to stay healthy."

So 1) we should keep this in mind, but 2) cooking the seafood is a bad idea.

Tim

[mmorris]

They cannot be fed cooked fish and expected to stay healthy."

So 1) we should keep this in mind, but 2) cooking the seafood is a bad idea.

Tim

Does anyone feed their fish nothing but cooked seafood? I won't feed my fish raw seafood; neither will I feed my fish nothing but cooked seafood. We all know that a varied diet is important. I add vitamins to my bh/shrimp mix, as well.

[tcyiu]

There are fish which thiominase-free. Why not feed those raw to avoid thiominase, and yet provide the nutrients which are otherwise destroyed by the heat? Why the blanket prohibition on all seafood??

Tim

[fishorama]

When I worked in a bird hosptial we added B vitamins to the fish for piscavores to counteract the thiaminase. Maybe that's something easy to add to raw seafood mixes.

I know from loaches.com 1 guy's fish that were experiencing neurological signs that seemed due to a lack of B1 ASFAIR. I'll look for the thread. Here http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=11782&highlight=thiaminase

Tim- which fish are thiaminase-free, do you know? I feed a variety of prepared foods that have vitamins added, I wonder if they're enough to prevent problems.

[Eddie]

Never worried about thiaminase in fish, and you'll find the majority of people who use seafood/shellfish in their mixes don't either. When there is concrete proof of any negative affects in feeding discus, then it might be something to think about and I say might. Studies would have to be done on separate groups of fish. Also, the added vitamins that most mixes have are probably counteracting any of this.

This thiaminase issue has zero substantial evidence in discus, and I highly doubt it ever will. ;)

Eddie

[tcyiu]

As for loaches having neurological problems ... gee. I thought they were just being loaches. :D

See this link I posted earlier. Way down at the bottom are the various fish that have it and those that don't.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

Generally, I am against adding vitamins and other nutrients intended for human consumption. Fish and mammals have very different physiology. Lord knows what the vitamins actually do in the fish. Just feed a variety of fresh food that is similar to what they evolved to eat and you should be fine.

Eddie, I agree with you. As far as I know, no fish evolved to eat cooked seafood. Well maybe the ones living near deep sea vents LOL!!

To the extent fish eat other fish raw, and have done so forever, I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. However, I do agree that to feed a diet that is exclusively one species is a cause for concern.

Tim

[Eddie]

See this link I posted earlier. Way down at the bottom are the various fish that have it and those that don't.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/thiaminase.htm

Eddie, I agree with you. As far as I know, no fish evolved to eat cooked seafood. Well maybe the ones living near deep sea vents LOL

To the extent fish eat other fish raw, and have done so forever, I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. However, I do agree that to feed a diet that is exclusively one species is a cause for concern.

Tim

For sure, best to have a variety. Either way, I add vitamins and other ingredients that contain their own vitamins/minerals.

Eddie

[fishorama]

Thanks Tim, I didn't look at the entire article :o. I'm going shopping today & thought I may need to change the discus' list from shrimp & banana etc.

[mmorris]

Never worried about thiaminase in fish, and you'll find the majority of people who use seafood/shellfish in their mixes don't either. When there is concrete proof of any negative affects in feeding discus, then it might be something to think about and I say might. Studies would have to be done on separate groups of fish. Also, the added vitamins that most mixes have are probably counteracting any of this.

This thiaminase issue has zero substantial evidence in discus, and I highly doubt it ever will. ;)

Eddie

I suspect people don't worry about thiaminase in fish because they are ignorant of its impact, or they cling so stubbornly to their traditional way of doing things that they cannot accept evidence that suggests their methods need adjustment. Scientists do not need to do a study of every single species of fish, discus included, in order to understand the impact of thiaminase on fish! If thiaminase breaks down thiamine in seafood, why wouldn't it continue to do so when more is added? It's really simple to play it safe. If you add a seafood that is known to contain thiaminase, like shrimp, cook it first. If it does not contain thiaminase, don't!

[tcyiu]

So thiaminase breaks down thiamine. OK. Check. Got it.

Heat from cooking breaks down many nutrients including protein. Hmmm. No check.

Discus did not evolve to eat cooked foods. Hmmm. No check.

I don't get it. To preserve thiamine, we're going reduce the health benefits of the other nutrients in raw seafood by cooking it?

Discus are fish. They evolved to eat other fish (ref the threads about cardinal tetras as discus snack food) amongst other things like worms, bugs and whatever else fits in their mouths. All of which is raw.

And even if one is concerned about thiaminase, you haven't answered the question why not feed raw seafood from fish that do NOT have thiaminase?

The statement "I won't feed my fish raw seafood" seems to me a little out there. Whether you approve or not, fish have been eating raw seafood ever since - well forever.

Castigating people who will continue to feed raw shrimp as part of a varied diet as either "ignorant" or "stubbornly clinging" (my paraphrase) is not helpful. Thanks to your pointing it out, I do now have some additional knowledge I did not have before. AND it will be used to moderate the amount of shrimp I feed. But I for one, will not rush to the logical extreme because of a few articles on the internet.

I will only do so when Eddie tells me to. ;) JK

Tim

[Mr Wild]

I have a good recipe which i have used for years which gives the fish a great and easy to digest table
note...each prt equals 2ounces
1. Three part peeled and cooked shrimp
2. One part kelp
3. One prt dried cod
4. One prt clams
5. One prt gelatin
6. One prt salt water salmon

Blend all prts except the gelatin together in a large bowl..Finally mixing it down to a paste like texture. Mix gelatin with proper amount of water and miix this into your paste like mix. Blend this again
and place in a mold at least one inch thick. Place this into freezer
The mold should be lined with wax paper for easy removal. After frozen cut in 4 ounce chunks. Wrap each chunk in wax paper and place in a freezer bag.

Slice with a very sharp thin bladed knife. Slice very fine shaving about a 16th of an inch. feed for 3 minutes.. If they eat everything then feed a little more

Sheldon

Hi Sheldon

Just a quick question, when you say Dried cod can you use smoked cod?

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Hi Sheldon

Just a quick question, when you say Dried cod can you use smoked cod?

Hi Mr Wild..i would have to say no..smoking may cause unwanted chemicals to form..if you cant get the cod ..leave it out

Sheldon

[mmorris]

So thiaminase breaks down thiamine. OK. Check. Got it.

Heat from cooking breaks down many nutrients including protein. Hmmm. No check.

Discus did not evolve to eat cooked foods. Hmmm. No check.

I don't get it. To preserve thiamine, we're going reduce the health benefits of the other nutrients in raw seafood by cooking it?

Discus are fish. They evolved to eat other fish (ref the threads about cardinal tetras as discus snack food) amongst other things like worms, bugs and whatever else fits in their mouths. All of which is raw.

And even if one is concerned about thiaminase, you haven't answered the question why not feed raw seafood from fish that do NOT have thiaminase?

The statement "I won't feed my fish raw seafood" seems to me a little out there. Whether you approve or not, fish have been eating raw seafood ever since - well forever.

Castigating people who will continue to feed raw shrimp as part of a varied diet as either "ignorant" or "stubbornly clinging" (my paraphrase) is not helpful. Thanks to your pointing it out, I do now have some additional knowledge I did not have before. AND it will be used to moderate the amount of shrimp I feed. But I for one, will not rush to the logical extreme because of a few articles on the internet.

I will only do so when Eddie tells me to. ;) JK

Tim

You seem to be basing your decision to continue feeding raw shrimp and other seafoods containing thiaminase on the notion that our options are either to destroy the thiaminase or to destroy the protein and other nutrients. As I understand it, thiaminase does strip the Vitamin B from the food. To what degree does cooking destroy the quality of the protein? Perhaps you could find some scientific literature on that. I don't know offhand, but when the science advises that seafood containing thiaminase be cooked before feeding to fish, I'm not going to cling to some traditional notion. I did, in fact, answer the question about feeding raw fish that does not include thiaminase. Your point about `I won't feed my fish raw seafood' is correct - I should have added `that contain thiaminase'. My error. I could only think of two reasons why people would choose to ignore the experts who publish scientific research on issues that concern us. You came up with a third. :) Best do what Eddie says. ;) You might want to review the literature that relates thiaminase with reproductive problems in fish.

[tcyiu]

You seem to be basing your decision to continue feeding raw shrimp and other seafoods containing thiaminase on the notion that our options are either to destroy the thiaminase or to destroy the protein and other nutrients. As I understand it, thiaminase does strip the Vitamin B from the food. To what degree does cooking destroy the quality of the protein? Perhaps you could find some scientific literature on that.

I would state it as the belief that cooking significantly changes the nutritional value foodstuff in ways that we do NOT know if it is beneficial for discus. What we do know is unlike humans, they did NOT evolve to process cooked foods. They may actually benefit from some aspects of cooked food. But there are just as likely to be other deleterious effects that we don't know about.

Through heat, proteins get de-natured. I just plain do not know if fish can use de-natured proteins (I know humans can). Through heat, all enzymes (including thiaminase) get broken down. Most vitamins are diminished (to varying degrees). Some nutrients (like iron) actually increase, probably due to the red meat proteins being broken up. But most other minerals are lost (depending on the cooking method). In vegetables, anti-oxidants are destroyed.

With all these massive changes to the nutritional value of the cooked meat, is it wise to focus only on vitamin B1 and ignore the rest?

Here's the abstract of one paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4T1944J-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4645c6db6663e7970ffb36501abe12a7So

A few notes:
- We can't see the rest of the paper unless we subscribe to the service.
- In the abstract, the quote of interest: "Calcium, sodium, potassium, magnesium and phosphorus decreased during cooking in all cuts and cooking processes, while iron and zinc were found to increase in beef. All vitamins decreased during cooking, with thiamine showing the highest losses, from 73% up to 100%."
- This paper deals primarily in the effect cooking on fat in beef. It has a narrow focus, but it seems to be typical of papers dealing in nutrition. See next comment. (I picked this one because it deals in changes to a meat. There are lots of papers dealing in carrots, but I felt it was a little bit of stretch ;) ).
- It appears that the common underlying belief in both scientific literature and popular literature is that cooking affects food nutrition. It is so pervasive, that there is really no study of the general phenomena. (Sort of like trying to publish a paper that earth is round - not a great way to advance your career to publish an obvious finding). What one finds a lot of are papers like the one above which focus on some minutia. Since there are lots of papers dealing in various specific changes of lots of parameters many different foodstuff, one can draw the general conclusion that cooking foods cause a lot of changes.
- Lastly, please see the comment that thiamine is drastically reduced. Isn't this exactly what you are trying prevent? In other words, by cooking foods to destroy thiaminase, you're also destroying thiamine? Isn't the cure worse than the disease?

As for popular press, I assiduously avoided all the raw-foodist publications. I see the raw food movement as yet another example of non-scientists, taking one narrow set of data and taking it to a logical extreme, while ignoring all the other data.

Here is one more article from a general publication. I am not trying to position these people as being particularly credible. I just want to show that even in the popular press, the common wisdom is that cooking changes the inherent nutritional value (generally decreasing the nutritional content).

http://www.magazine.ayurvediccure.com/how-nutrients-are-lost-as-the-food-gets-cooked/

The quote of interest is "The longer a food material is exposed to heat, the greater is its nutrient loss."

I hope this helps you understand why I'm not a fan of cooked foods for our pets, especially if it is ostensibly being done for nutritional reasons. (BTW, lets anyone draws the wrong conclusion that I am a Raw Food believer, trust me, I am their worst nightmare. I loved cooked foods - for myself. Not for my fish).

Tim

[mmorris]

Why are you examining red meat, Tim? Seems like a pointless exercise. You are quoting "Health, Fitness, Sex & Glamour?" LOL It is hardly scientific and in serious need of editing! :D Nevertheless, to continue your quote:
"The longer a food material is exposed to heat, the greater is its nutrient loss. A food material that is immersed in hot boiling water loses more nutrients when compared to one that has been steamed...It is quite normal for the food to loss fifteen percent of their nutrition as they get cooked...As a compensation of this loss of nutrients food undergoes many other changes that in turn support our health...As the food gets prepared, nutrients present in it get converted into other easily absorbable forms..."
I can see why YOU didn't continue with the quote - it doesn't support your argument.
I've read extensively on the subject of feeding raw thiaminase-containing seafood and every source I have found advises us to cook it - whether it is for human consumption, for cat consumption, or for our fish.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA097

'Utilizing raw fish as a main ingredient in fish feeds has long been recognized to be harmful to the health and growth of fish due primarily to the presence of the anti-nutrient, thiaminase. Thiaminase, an enzyme that destroys thiamine (vitamin B-1), one of the essential water-soluble vitamins, is mostly found in freshwater fish and is destroyed by heat (i.e., cooking). Other concerns related to using raw fish in diets include the spread of infectious diseases such as mycobacterium and botulism.'
Tim, if you want to continue to feed raw thiaminase-containing seafood to your fish, feel free! I think the health concern is serious enough to merit mentioning.

[poconogal]

fish have been eating raw seafood ever since - well forever
Just a "minor" point here... there's not a single Discus in the wild that has ever eaten SEAfood to begin with, since SEAfood is anything that comes from the OCEAN, so that alone invalidates statements like the above, when discussing the diet of a freshwater fish like Discus.


Just feed a variety of fresh food that is similar to what they evolved to eat and you should be fine.
Of course this is sound advice, but again, while Discus have not evolved to eat cooked foods, Discus have not evolved to eat seafood either. Seafood is not now, nor has it ever been, nor do I think it ever will be, a natural diet for a wild FW Discus. (Barring some cataclysmic occurrence to the earth, like a giant meteor striking our planet and forcing the ocean totally into the Amazon basin). :D But then again, if that occurred, there'd be no Discus anyway, unless they adapted very quickly to the salinity of the ocean.

So why is seafood being fed to Discus in the first place? Saltwater aquarists are advised not to feed goldfish or other FW fish to marine species, as FW fish are not a natural marine food and do NOT contain the proper nutrients for marines. Seems to me that the reverse would hold true. That is also the reason behind there being separate commercial foods made for marine fish and FW fish. So it appears to me that the seafood issue goes even beyond cooking or not cooking shrimp!

[Disgirl]

Another good topic! I have always heard that we feed our discus seafood rather than freshwater fish because seafood will not harbor the dangerous parasites that can infect discus. Although, as Connie said, discus do not eat seafood in the amazon! So, why exactly are we feeding cooked or raw seafood instead of freshwater fish to our discus :confused:
Barb :)

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Whynot use fishmeal instead of raw seafood? 99.999% of all commercial aquaculture farms use a fishmeal based food with great results. A whole lot cheaper too...

-Ryan

[tcyiu]

I think the health concern is serious enough to merit mentioning.

Agreed - worth mentioning. But at the exclusion of other concerns. I would say no.

poconogal, I am using "seafood" in the generic sense just like all the supermarkets and fishmongers sell trout, tilapia, smallmouth bass, freshwater shrimp as "SEAFOOD."

Mysis shrimp which is a freshwater shrimp. I'd feel like an idiot if I referred to it as "PONDFOOD". But if it makes you happy, I'll stop saying "SEAFOOD".

LAKEFOOD, RIVERFOOD, PUDDLEFOOD, STAGNANTPOOLSFROMAMAZONFOOD. Come up with a better name. Whatever gets the conversation back to the core issue.

Look, I agree that thiminase breaks down thiamine is a fact. But heat breaks down thiamine and other nutrients is also a fact. Why keep avoiding that issue?

Humans have adapted to extract nutrients out of cooked foods. As many papers have shown, as a species, we generally benefit from eating cooked meats. The extended quote that mmorris thought supported her case in fact refers to humans.

Again I will state, we do NOT know if discus will fare better or not with cooked foods because of the significantly changed nutritional content. There is no evidence they benefit from cooked foods (unlike humans) - and more importantly, common sense would be that diminished nutrient content of cooked foods is not good. What we do know is that they have done just fine with raw foods since forever.

I think I will bow out and take leave at this point. The conversation seems to be cemented in the realm of beliefs and not science. When one fact (whether science based or not) becomes THE TRUTH and other inconvenient facts/evidences are ignored or swept under the rug because it is contrary to THE TRUTH, it is no longer rational, but is dogma. I can't dispute beliefs, so I won't.

Tim

[mmorris]

I think the science makes it perfectly clear that my discus will benefit if I cook the seafood that contains thiaminase. ;)

[poconogal]

....poconogal, I am using "seafood" in the generic sense just like all the supermarkets and fishmongers sell trout, tilapia, smallmouth bass, freshwater shrimp as "SEAFOOD."

Mysis shrimp which is a freshwater shrimp. I'd feel like an idiot if I referred to it as "PONDFOOD". But if it makes you happy, I'll stop saying "SEAFOOD".

LAKEFOOD, RIVERFOOD, PUDDLEFOOD, STAGNANTPOOLSFROMAMAZONFOOD. Come up with a better name. Whatever gets the conversation back to the core issue.

Tim
Tim, the discussion, the core issue, was regarding cooked v. uncooked shrimp, SEAfood, from the ocean, not Mysis shrimp, which is ridiculous to have brought up, since I don't think anyone would attempt to cook Mysis. Are you going to now tell me that the discussion was about cooking Mysis shrimp? I don't think so...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I'll just throw out there that Red meat contains Thiamine, and many that feed seafood do so as part of a Beefheart Mix..... multi-vitamins that contain vitamin B are also added to the mix.....

So whats the net result of the native Thiamine plus the thiamine thats in the multivitamins... minus the Thiaminase?.. not sure....

Anyone care to try and find out what the amounts of thiaminase are in seafoods like Shrimp?

Theres also the fact that most don't feed one kind of food exclusively...that minimizes the chance of a deficiency.

Lastly I have used shrimp cooked and uncooked and if you cook it it loses its ability to bind the BH mix together.

ps..Ryan...I also tried the fish Meal sold by FTFFA in the 50 pound bags...alls I can say is Messy and it has a high ash content.

-al

[brewmaster15]

HI Connie,


So why is seafood being fed to Discus in the first place? Saltwater aquarists are advised not to feed goldfish or other FW fish to marine species, as FW fish are not a natural marine food and do NOT contain the proper nutrients for marines.Ironically...the reason often cited there is thiaminase content... :) Freshwater fish have Thiaminase also in them ;) and quite alot of it by my understanding.



So why is seafood being fed to Discus in the first place? Saltwater aquarists are advised not to feed goldfish or other FW fish to marine species, as FW fish are not a natural marine food and do NOT contain the proper nutrients for marines. Seems to me that the reverse would hold true. That is also the reason behind there being separate commercial foods made for marine fish and FW fish. So it appears to me that the seafood issue goes even beyond cooking or not cooking shrimp!

if you look at the ingredients of any commercial fish food....whether its for salt water fish or fresh water fish... the source of fish is marine... even when they say fishmeal... its almost always a marine " whitefish" as thats whats commercially availible, financially feasible, and stores best...Additionally most high end tropical fish foods for freshwater species contain Krill or plankton...again...a marine source.

hth,
al

[poconogal]

....if you look at the ingredients of any commercial fish food....whether its for salt water fish or fresh water fish... the source of fish is marine... even when they say fishmeal... its almost always a marine " whitefish" as thats whats commercially availible, financially feasible, and stores best...Additionally most high end tropical fish foods for freshwater species contain Krill or plankton...again...a marine source.

hth,
al

Hi Al. I know that the commercial fish foods have marine source fish as ingredient(s) (I'm a compulsive label reader :D), but I would imagine that ingredients would be more capable of meeting FW tropicals nutritional needs rather than the nutritional needs of a Dottyback or Marine Angel. Otherwise, would there be a need for separate foods for Marine and FW? I also think that even though marine sourced ingredients are contained in FW fish food, those marine sources may be different than that contained in a marine fish food.

Recently I purchased a food specifically for Discus made by Red Sea. It's called VibraGro and it sounded interesting. It contains, among other things, fish hydrolysate, fish meal, krill meal, soy meal, kelp meal, wheat germ, blood worms, ulva, spirulina, marine pigments, etc., and a whole host of vitamins and minerals - the can states that it consists of a variety of natural marine, animal and plant meals, etc. All of my Discus went crazy for it the first time (and only time) it was fed, because I then found out that Red Sea stopped making this food 3 YEARS ago! Once I found that out I felt very leery about feeding it so I contacted Red Sea who replaced that little can of food with 2 buckets of MarineGro, which the label lists as contents: fish meal, wheat, fish oil, wheat gluten, krill hydrolysate, ulva, spirulina, CE natural pigments, minerals, astaxanthin. Also has only 3 vitamins - A, D3, Ascorbic Acid. The ingredients are very different from the Discus food, but with the Marine food having higher protein content, higher fat and less moisture. My Discus have no interest in this food whatsoever; I guess the "stuff" that's in it does not appeal, while the "stuff" in the other food, targeting Discus, apparently contains the "stuff" that Discus like. Given the vast difference in ingredients between the 2 foods and the reaction of my Discus, I also think its possible that the marine fish meal sources are different than the fish meal contained in MarineGro. However, neither food lists the source of its fish meal. Now ON Discus Flakes, on the other hand, lists plankton, salmon filets and squid as its first 3 ingredients.

But when its stated in a discussion to feed Discus as close to their natural diet as possible, or what they have evolved to eat, it would never be salmon, or cod, or krill, or marine shrimp, regardless of what the commercial food ingredients are. These ingredients are certainly not their natural diet nor what they've evolved to eat. If one wants to feed what would be close to the natural Discus diet, or what they've evolved to eat, then a seafood mix would not be it.

[Tito]

Man. After reading all this - is there anyone feeding Discus what they naturally eat? LOL

I know I don't - I feed flake food and bhrine shrimp stuffed with spirulina but that's about it. Sure am glad my fish are still all making their way to the 5" mark on these foods alone. Their colors are pretty good too.

I sure wouldn't want to go thru all the changes preparing food for fish. If I did - I'd have to say I would have to change to another hobby. My wife (very valleyish ya know what I mean) she would not have me stuffing the fridge or freezer with some guck I made up from a whole bunch of stuff. Since we live in an apartment - I'd have no room for one of those small freezers you can store in the basement.

Whew! Sure am glad I can just feed good old fashion Flake Food.

One thing is for sure - Discus don't eat steak or a Cow that may have fallen into the river. LOL

[brewmaster15]

Connie,
I think if you look closer at foods made for marine and freshwater fish you'll see that in many/most cases the main difference is labeling and marketing... but thats speculation as the manufacturers will not disclose all that.


But when its stated in a discussion to feed Discus as close to their natural diet as possible, or what they have evolved to eat, it would never be salmon, or cod, or krill, or marine shrimp, regardless of what the commercial food ingredients are. These ingredients are certainly not their natural diet nor what they've evolved to eat. If one wants to feed what would be close to the natural Discus diet, or what they've evolved to eat, then a seafood mix would not be it. Yesterday 09:26 PM true...its not possible for us to duplicate what they eat in the wild in any practical sense.. Periphyton is not readily availible yet:)..

Seriously..I think we sometimes make things too complicated and obsess and focus on the smallest detail and in doing so miss the big picture. Not too belittle the issue of Thiaminase... it is a real issue and something to be concerned about if feeding alot of it in exclusion of anything else.....if people want to rule it out by cooking...Thats fine..I have tried and the resulting mix was not well recieved nor was it as clean..... also...I'd still bump up the vitamens added though as up to 30% of the thiamine is lost during cooking, not to mention others nutrients.

Enzymes work on substrates and theres a Stoichiometry for each enzyme... X amount of enzymes work on X amount of substrateI have no idea what the stoichiometry is for thiaminase...I've looked and can't see any literature.


A varied diet is key in this, and helps minimize the effect... IMO.

I currently feed vitamen and ingredient enriched Beefheart/seafood mix homemade, hikari bloodworms, san fran bay frzn Brine shrimp, assorted flakes to juvies, ocean nutrition formula one and two pellets,NLS pellets, and live compost worms...

I'm not worried about difficencies in mydiscus diet because its Diverse...and basically I've used it for years...I've bred fish on it, and raised fry to adult on it.... always room for improvement but I honestly am comfortable with my current feeding regiment..:) I'm sure there are other better ones out there though.

hth,
al

[Tito]

Connie,
A varied diet is key in this, and helps minimize the effect... IMO.

I currently feed vitamen and ingredient enriched Beefheart/seafood mix homemade, hikari bloodworms, san fran bay frzn Brine shrimp, assorted flakes to juvies, ocean nutrition formula one and two pellets,NLS pellets, and live compost worms...

hth,
al]

Pable Teepoo (spelling)
HE speaks a lot about this when promoting his NLS product. He says hobbyist don't need to have such a variety. That the fish get all they need from his Pellets. I'm sure other food manufactures will say something similar. Of course there is the most obvious observation "they just say that to have you buy only their product". Obvious to a duck I know....yet and still....I wonder if there is any truth to it.

Most flake foods or pellets are made of mixed ingredients....with that being said...there may be something to that - maybe all we need to do is feed the fish a flake food and a pellet food of some type and call it a day. I bet millions of hobbyist do this all the time. I bet zillions of fish don't care to complaint either. I also bet there aren't too many people that can honestly say well I've kept this fish for 10 years and fed it this (_________) food for ten years and look at it now. So you know - I hate to always be the Devil's advocate. But just maybe, just maybe - too much is being made out of nothing. Commercial fish food has been in the hobby since the beginning and I personally think it works and is problably just as adequate if not more adequate than a novice fish fancier who wants to create his/her own concoction. And even that novice is still going to be able to feed hungry fish with gelatin. Jello has gelatin and kids l o v e it! LOL

But you know what - it makes for good internet convo. Tea, Coffee anyone? LOL

[brewmaster15]

Tito,
To each his own (tank of fish that is) ...if you are happy with what you feed..and the fish are happy for you...then I say...pour yourself a cup of java, tea or whatever and enjoy your fishes...:) Thats what a hobby is all about.

but then again...for those interested in carrying things out further with their fish ...threads like this one are a very valuable resource that provide information, challenge ideas, and make people think.

regards all... time to feed my homemade surf and turf and grab my cup of Java!:D

-al

[poconogal]

Well, time for my 2nd cup of java and I just fed the Discus some Vitamin Plus flakes. I don't make homemade for them, I'm a bad Discus mom I guess! :D They do get a varied diet though, flakes from different companies, tetra bits, sera granules, NLS, FBW, Mysis, SF Brand BH among others. Do they need all this stuff? Perhaps yes, perhaps no, I just like buying new foods for them, LOL!

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Tito,
To each his own (tank of fish that is) ...if you are happy with what you feed..and the fish are happy for you...then I say...pour yourself a cup of java, tea or whatever and enjoy your fishes...:) Thats what a hobby is all about.

but then again...for those interested in carrying things out further with their fish ...threads like this one are a very valuable resource that provide information, challenge ideas, and make people think.

regards all... time to feed my homemade surf and turf and grab my cup of Java!:D

-al

Hi Al..thanks for having this great forum and allowing me the chance to stir the pot.

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Besides the SEA FOOD MIX. I feed red worms i raise myself. I also dyhrate them and add kelp and few other foods and make my own flake. The whole idea of making ones food is a good one and helps one be active in every aspect of keeping your fish. I think Watley may be one of the first beef heart guys. I also feel he was looking for a hi protien food to replace TUBIS...which as i recall were the number one food for discus at the time. Now feeding Tubis will make your fish grow like no other source. Large spawns viable fry.Sounds fantastic. But the big draw back is they are carriers of many pathogeons harmful to both fish and possibly man. In asia i believe they feed them heavily. I never liked the idea of BH. But the sea food which is easy to obtain and super rich in many vitamins and minerals also almost a pathogeon free source of food. Decided it for me.
The Thiamnase is not a real issue. Cooking the shrimp in my mix adds some body and disinfects the shrimp which come from many sources and handling procedures.

Sheldon

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al..thanks for having this great forum and allowing me the chance to stir the pot.

Sheldon

Try stirring the pot on another site Marc... I'm tried of banning you here.

Marc Fleishman, aka American Breeder...aka..tinsel town tommy...aka discusmonk...aka discus toad.... and now AKA Sheldon Goldstien. ...

At least change your posting styles and stop having fun at the expense of this forum's membership.

Sorry everyone...I should stepped in here sooner.

-al

[mmorris]

Seriously..I think we sometimes make things too complicated and obsess and focus on the smallest detail and in doing so miss the big picture. Not too belittle the issue of Thiaminase... it is a real issue and something to be concerned about if feeding alot of it in exclusion of anything else.....if people want to rule it out by cooking...Thats fine..I have tried and the resulting mix was not well recieved nor was it as clean..... also...I'd still bump up the vitamens added though as up to 30% of the thiamine is lost during cooking, not to mention others nutrients.

Enzymes work on substrates and theres a Stoichiometry for each enzyme... X amount of enzymes work on X amount of substrateI have no idea what the stoichiometry is for thiaminase...I've looked and can't see any literature.


A varied diet is key in this, and helps minimize the effect... IMO.

I currently feed vitamen and ingredient enriched Beefheart/seafood mix homemade, hikari bloodworms, san fran bay frzn Brine shrimp, assorted flakes to juvies, ocean nutrition formula one and two pellets,NLS pellets, and live compost worms...

I'm not worried about difficencies in mydiscus diet because its Diverse...and basically I've used it for years...I've bred fish on it, and raised fry to adult on it.... always room for improvement but I honestly am comfortable with my current feeding regiment..:) I'm sure there are other better ones out there though.

hth,
al

Weren't you cooking the whole lot, stock and barrel? I I followed your recipe and it stunk to high heaven! LOL
Points of interest:
"A diet consisting of 35% (thiaminase-containing) alewives was associated with a 95% decline in lake trout egg thiamine relative to controls whereas a diet consisting of 100% alewives resulted in a 97% decline."

[brewmaster15]

Weren't you cooking the whole lot, stock and barrel? I I followed your recipe and it stunk to high heaven! LOL Lol... that was a long time ago when I was worried about thiaminase;) I thought Paul and I set you straight on beefheart mixes at the NEDA sunday morning coffee talk;):D:D



"A diet consisting of 35% (thiaminase-containing) alewives was associated with a 95% decline in lake trout egg thiamine relative to controls whereas a diet consisting of 100% alewives resulted in a 97% decline. yes...but how much vitamens were added to the group>:)

and honestly...I may need to feed some thiaminase containing alewives here... before I run out of tanks:p:p:p:p


-al

[mmorris]

Lol... that was a long time ago when I was worried about thiaminase;) I thought Paul and I set you straight on beefheart mixes at the NEDA sunday morning coffee talk;):D:D

yes...but how much vitamens were added to the group>:)

and honestly...I may need to feed some thiaminase containing alewives here... before I run out of tanks:p:p:p:p


-al

Tongue-in-cheek? Our chat, you know, had nothing to do with thiaminase or cooking. ;) No vitamins were added. :confused: The 'net is full of reports of thiamine deficiency issues in fish, iguanas, crocodiles, cats etc. that trail back to thiaminase. If we don't know the stoichiometry, why take chances that some of the added thiamine will be broken down as well? It's so simple - when you add shrimp, add cooked!
No need to feed the alewives - just get more tanks! :)

[brewmaster15]

Martha,
Have you tried cooking it yet and feeding it? :) Its isn't all that tasty to my discus!

Okay lets try it this way... and I am not saying that everything on the web is wrong about thiaminase only that theres a big difference between feeding an exclusive diet of thiaminase containing foods (which is what studies like this do) and feeding a diverse diet diet where one food may be lacking in thiamine or may not depending on how much enzyme is actually present, how much thiamine is added to the diet and the stoichiometry which is not clear.

Think Humans here a moment...do we get all our nutrition in one kind of food? of course not, ideally we vary the diet and take suppliments to make up the difference.... I tend to regard my fishes nutrition in a similar fashion... to each is own....but if I am going to cook my shrimp and seafoods...I'm eating them...not the fish!:):):)



This is pure hypothetical BSing on my part...
This is a super stretch here but for alls we know the presence the of thiaminase is not a bad thing of itself.. The probelm may be the diets themselve are lacking in native thiamine in excess of the enzyme..... its a biological process that no one seems to know why it exists and yet its everywhere.. Its got a purpose beyound causing deficiencies.... The thiaminase may actually be there to counter higher than needed Thiamine in the diet... so if the diet in thiamine is lacking ...its a problem...if not..it isn't.

-al

[mmorris]

This is pure hypothetical BSing on my part...
This is a super stretch here but for alls we know the presence the of thiaminase is not a bad thing of itself.. The probelm may be the diets themselve are lacking in native thiamine in excess of the enzyme..... its a biological process that no one seems to know why it exists and yet its everywhere.. Its got a purpose beyound causing deficiencies.... The thiaminase may actually be there to counter higher than needed Thiamine in the diet... so if the diet in thiamine is lacking ...its a problem...if not..it isn't.

-al

I don't cook the shrimp. I buy it cooked and add it to the bh. My fish love the stuff. A varied diet? Of course! Al's hyphothesis #242: That's possible. What we do know, though, is that thiaminase exists in some seafoods and not in others, and that the species studied that feed on thiaminese-rich foods suffer as a result. When treated, which includes thiamine-dips, the effects are stopped or reversed. At the end of the day, we really need the stoichiometry, as you brought up originally. Do we know for sure that the thiaminase is not working on added thiamine?

[brewmaster15]

Martha,

I think theres alot we don't know with regards to Thiaminase....and how it may affect our fish insitu given our diverse diets and vitamen suppliments.:)

I think its important to realize though that thiaminase is in many freshwater fish at high levels.....It has a purpose....we just don't know what that purpose is...

I do know that many overseas breeders add raw prawn/shrimp to their discus diets and as far I can see.. They don't have any breeding issues....so either they are supplimenting with additional vitamens to compensate...or theres much more to the equation than just thiaminase and thiamine.

-al

[mmorris]

You may be right. All I have is the science to hand. I'll use cooked shrimp. ;)

[Elite Aquaria]

Martha,

I do know that many overseas breeders add raw prawn/shrimp to their discus diets and as far I can see.. They don't have any breeding issues....so either they are supplimenting with additional vitamens to compensate...or theres much more to the equation than just thiaminase and thiamine.

-al

I can't vouch for others but I know for a fact that Wayne uses 70% fresh raw shrimp and 30% Beef heart. I also do a similar mix and we both add a multivitamin and Vitamin D and Calcium.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I can't vouch for others but I know for a fact that Wayne uses 70% fresh raw shrimp and 30% Beef heart. I also do a similar mix and we both add a multivitamin and Vitamin D and Calcium.

From what I recall though, Wayne doesnt add any of the vitamins into the mix until just before feeding. I would imagine this would keep a lot of the vitamins at their most potent (minimize/negate any thiaminase issues), and is probably the reason why his fish are so healthy and vibrant. Maybe vitamin deficiency is more of an issue than most of us realize... :confused:

-Ryan

[mmorris]

Maybe vitamin deficiency is more of an issue than most of us realize... :confused:

-Ryan

I think so. The analysis on thiamine deficiency on fish is on those that feed predominately on species with a thiaminase content and the consequences are severe. The fry of affected spawns die immediately after hatching, for example. The list of symptoms is impressive. So what is the impact of a limited amount of thiaminase? Does the addition of thiamine to the diet compensate entirely? We don't know, but the science tells us not to feed raw seafood that contains thiaminase. It's really so easy to avoid.

[brewmaster15]

from what I recall though, Wayne doesnt add any of the vitamins into the mix until just before feeding. I would imagine this would keep a lot of the vitamins at their most potent (minimize/negate any thiaminase issues), and is probably the reason why his fish are so healthy and vibrant. Maybe vitamin deficiency is more of an issue than most of us realize... :confused: Ryan from what I can see in the literature that won't matter as the reaction is rapidwhen the enzyme and vitamen meet and whats more so the act of freezing and thawing actually aids in the reported effects of thiaminase on thiamine due to the tissue rupturing..

-al

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Wow, then it must be an almost instant reaction then. Hrmm...interesting.

-Ryan

[brewmaster15]

think so. The analysis on thiamine deficiency on fish is on those that feed predominately on species with a thiaminase content and the consequences are severe. The fry of affected spawns die immediately after hatching, for example. The list of symptoms is impressive. So what is the impact of a limited amount of thiaminase? Does the addition of thiamine to the diet compensate entirely? We don't know, but the science tells us not to feed raw seafood that contains thiaminase. It's really so easy to avoid.

Martha,
We can speculate alls we want on the effects here but one thing we do know...theres alot of people out there, myself being one that does not cook these seafoods and has not had their discus adversely affected in a tangible way......of course theres going to be those that may question that, but I feed my festivums, angel fish, Discus, and port cichlids all the same diet and I sure don't see a problem with breeding or difficiencies...if anything I get overrun with Fry....so I guess thats subjective but It tells me that if I am impacting them with thiaminase...I am also countering it by my varied feeding regiment and vitamens.... and really...Thats good enough for me...though I am open to seeing people try raising or breeding a group of discus on raw seafood verses cooked seafood both groups also fed vitamens and a diverse diet.:)

Gotta run... having broiled shrimp and scallops on a bed of quinoa.;):D:D

-al

[mmorris]

theres alot of people out there, myself being one that does not cook these seafoods and has not had their discus adversely affected in a tangible way......-al

I'll cook my shrimp. It may be that `excellent health' isn't as good as it gets.

[brewmaster15]

Martha,
We all find our paths in this hobby in what we innately feel is how to do things after seeing how other do things....... Its the sign of someone that has confidence in their skills and an acquired set of experiences to draw upon.

I'm glad to see you are at that point....you've come a long way!:)

Lucky fish you have there.;)

-al

[mmorris]

Well, I'm not bloody well cooking the bh anymore. :D

Thanks Al.

[poconogal]

I'll cook my shrimp. It may be that `excellent health' isn't as good as it gets.

Can you make mine with garlic butter sauce? Heavy on the garlic, capice?

[Cakes]

Well, time for my 2nd cup of java and I just fed the Discus some Vitamin Plus flakes. I don't make homemade for them, I'm a bad Discus mom I guess! :D They do get a varied diet though, flakes from different companies, tetra bits, sera granules, NLS, FBW, Mysis, SF Brand BH among others. Do they need all this stuff? Perhaps yes, perhaps no, I just like buying new foods for them, LOL!

I always split foods with my Dad. Splitting is best it, keeps stuff fresher.