Intermediate understandings

[Sheldon Goldstien]

We have thought about the basic ideas in discus understanding. I have listed under Post Discus Care a number of basic ways of keeping care of discus. But inmho there is a great deal more. Today the average hobbyist has large sponge filters and attached to the back of the tank mechanical filters. Lots of air lots of light.Its all over the top. Hi temps, Beef Heart.The fish seem to thrive but they dont live very long. I would make a guess that thats why we see so many fish being imported. It would be very interesting to take a pole and see how long discus fish live under these over the top conditions.


In the beginning of the hobby which i believe goes as far back as 1920. These fish were kept by a handful of researchers and biologist types. Mostly in Germany. Some also in Thailand and China. I know of no American that far back. The first American keepers were in the late 1950. Guys like Watley and others had a thriving tropical fish buisness close at hand in Miami which at that time was becoming the center for SA fish. One could go down there and puirchase discus and cardinal tetras easily. The tropical fish trade became a huge buisness. Becomeing the number one hobby worldwide.


I want to present a completly differing view than we unvailed in the Posts The Basic Philosophy of Discus Keeping

1.Temp 78
2.Ph 6.8
3.Filtration ..airstone
4.75 % water change daily
5.Barebottom tanks
6.No electric lites.
7.Daily subdued sunlite
8.!0 hrs of dark
9.Feeding same times everyday.


Sheldon

[David Rose]

Thanks for your post and wanting to share your experience. If I may ask, under these proposed conditions how many years have your Discus lived? Do you have some personal experience stats that would help support and educate others and perhaps compel them to make changes in the way we should raise Discus?

Being a numbers guy, I'm all about statistics.

Thanks in advance!

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Thanks for your post and wanting to share your experience. If I may ask, under these proposed conditions how many years have your Discus lived? Do you have some personal experience stats that would help support and educate others and perhaps compel them to make changes in the way we should raise Discus?

Being a numbers guy, I'm all about statistics.

Thanks in advance!

Well, the longest lived fish i have had was from my original purchase from Watley. A female who is the grand sire of all my turquoise fish. She lived a little over 7 years. She was still able to lay eggs as late as six and ahalf years. Her color as she aged was really something else. That is a unusual trait amongst discsu fish. Their colors deepen as they age. They do not continue to grow though after about 30 months old. Many fish never stop growing. Bigones.. The avergae age of my adult fish at death is about 4 years and some months. I attribute this to the parameters above.

Sheldon

[mmorris]

I would make a guess that thats why we see so many fish being imported.
I continue to disagree with your idea about temp. ;)
I doubt if keeping discus in these `over the top' conditions explains why so many are being imported. I would guess the reasons are because 1) so many die from being kept in poor conditions 2) the hobby/hobbyist is expanding.

[Disgirl]

But I have heard that a healthy discus could easily live 10-15 yrs. 4 years seems quite young. I sure am hoping that mine live way longer than 4. I have angelfish and festivum that are over 11 yrs. now, and they are cichlids from the same areas as discus. But this is indeed an interesting discussion Sheldon and I thank you for your posts about your way of keeping discus. We can all keep learning new things, even those of us who are very long time fish keepers like you and I :D:D.


quote:
The average age of my adult fish at death is about 4 years and some months.

[Sheldon Goldstien]

But I have heard that a healthy discus could easily live 10-15 yrs. 4 years seems quite young. I sure am hoping that mine live way longer than 4. I have angelfish and festivum that are over 11 yrs. now, and they are cichlids from the same areas as discus. But this is indeed an interesting discussion Sheldon and I thank you for your posts about your way of keeping discus. We can all keep learning new things, even those of us who are very long time fish keepers like you and I :D:D.


quote:
The average age of my adult fish at death is about 4 years and some months.

I have never heard of discus living 10 or more years. Where did you get this idea..4 years is old for a discus . They shrink and their skin gets coarse and contracted. The color changes dramatically. They look like old folks ..laugh

Sheldon

[jimmyjoe]

I'm sorry to butt in here but I thought I read in a TFH magazine Jack Wattley stated some discus can live to over 6 + years. So I think it's possible of a 10 year old discus JMO. Jim

[Disgirl]

There is a good discussion about it in the archives here. Don't know how to get that link up here but it is from 11-08-2007, under Discus Life Span, General Discus Discussion, under Main Discus Topics. I would appreciate someone here telling me with how to post a link to another post here. Eddie does it all the time but he is gone for awhile. Anybody else?
Barb :)

[roclement]

Sheldon,

I posted the same question here last month, I asked how many people had a fish that was over 5 years in age, not one response...I have personaly had discus that reached 7 years or so...I know for a fact that they can but in average 4/5 seem too be the norm. Just like humans can live to be over 100 but the majority does not.

My question also inquired if the power feeding method and sterile environment we keep our discus in nowadays is weakining our strains, and affecting longevity but there seems to be no hard data to support that theory...so unless someone actually does a study on the matter we will just be speculating.

The simple rsponse I got was "who cares?"! Since most of us only keep a fish for a couple of years and they either die, or we trade them, who cares how long they can live or how strong their offspring will be? I find the issue facinating and would like to find some data/research that could look into some of these issues but I have none.

My fish are in simple tanks with heaters and sponges, no lights other then natural light, I do WC daily and keep my temps in the upper 80's. I feed them twice a day for adults, and as much as I can for juvies at a minimum of 5 times...semi-powerfeeding I guess!

I can see the difference in growth betweem ,my fry and the ones that Bob has, both from the same clutch, mine are around 1 to 1.5 inches, Bob's are around 2 inches so I know that power-feeding works. I am curious to see if my fish catch up eventualy or if they will always be smaller?

I find this subject very interesting but I wouldn't go as far as to extrapolate that the reason we are importing so many fish is due to shorter longevity, I would agree with the post that states that the hobby is growing, shipping is getting better, more strains are becoming available, etc. but longevity would not even be a blimp in my radar.

Rodrigo

[pcsb23]

I have never heard of discus living 10 or more years. Where did you get this idea..4 years is old for a discus . They shrink and their skin gets coarse and contracted. The color changes dramatically. They look like old folks ..laugh

SheldonNot had a discus myself.. but see no reason why not with the proper care etc....


... I posted the same question here last month, I asked how many people had a fish that was over 5 years in age, not one response...I have personaly had discus that reached 7 years or so...I know for a fact that they can but in average 4/5 seem too be the norm. Just like humans can live to be over 100 but the majority does not...
Rod,

Sorry you didn't get a response from me, I must have missed the post :o When I temporarily closed my fishroom down (about a year 18 months ago) I sold most of my fish but gave my favourite to a friend, the fish was at least 8 years old when I handed it over, not sure if it is still going, but I've attached a pic taken in 2006.

[smiley]

Interesting subject..I want to take mine past just 4 years :)

Barb if i may help

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=419616

[David Rose]

Hi Barb,

The way I do it Barb is:

1. go to the thread that you want to link in your message.

2. once there, you should see what is called an address box at the top of your browser that changes every time you go from one web page to another.
beginning with "http://......"

3. Move your cursor with your "mouse" and click in that address box once. With just one click you should have highlighted the address in the box that starts with "http://.....", which usually turns blue indicating it is highlighted. Or you can also highlight this address manually by placing your cursor in front of the http and drag and highlight it.

4. Once the entire address is fully highlighted, do a copy/paste by clicking "Ctrl" and "C" similar to when you do it in other programs such as MS Word processing programs.

5. Now that you've copied the URL address, you need to go back to the thread you want to post it to and create your Reply message. When you get to the point you want to insert the link, just paste it in by clicking "Ctrl" and "X".

And that's all there is to it. There's always more than one way to do things, but this is the easiest to type up in instructional form.

HTH,

:)


There is a good discussion about it in the archives here. Don't know how to get that link up here but it is from 11-08-2007, under Discus Life Span, General Discus Discussion, under Main Discus Topics. I would appreciate someone here telling me with how to post a link to another post here. Eddie does it all the time but he is gone for awhile. Anybody else?
Barb :)

[roclement]

Nice fish Paul! Goes to my point that they can live longer then 4/5 years but very few people can do that. How did you raise him? Power feeding, wc, temps, etc?

Rodrigo

[Lytehouse]

The interesting thing to me is no other fish has such a faithful following--- freshwater or salt. Nobody in salt water asks how long their fish (or coral) has been alive and I've never heard of it in any other freshwater fish. It's an interesting phenomenon/loyalty.

One quetion I wish were addressed further came from Rodrigo:

"My question also inquired if the power feeding method and sterile environment we keep our discus in nowadays is weakining our strains, and affecting longevity but there seems to be no hard data to support that theory...so unless someone actually does a study on the matter we will just be speculating."

Seems to make sense intuitively, but evidentially there is no evidence to support--- one way or the other.

[Scribbles]

Very interesting. I've had LFS discus live 6 years and am looking forward to many more years with my Stendkers. I think that when you talk about keeping discus long term you also have to look at stress levels such as moving tanks and adding other discus/fish. They don't like change and with change you get stress. Consistancy is the key.

Chris

[rickztahone]

Nice fish Paul! Goes to my point that they can live longer then 4/5 years but very few people can do that. How did you raise him? Power feeding, wc, temps, etc?

Rodrigo

this is a great question because if Paul did powerfeed, use beefheart or did things that Sheldon might think out of the norm then it proves that it does not have an adverse affect on the discus life expectancy. of course that would only be one case but it's a start IMO

[Darrell Ward]

I'm sorry to butt in here but I thought I read in a TFH magazine Jack Wattley stated some discus can live to over 6 + years. So I think it's possible of a 10 year old discus JMO. Jim

I don't know, but I have a couple of fish that are over 5 years old. They are as healthy as any of my other fish.

[mikel]

It's sad to think these beautiful animals can only live for about 5-7 years:(.....My parrots are supposed to live for 75 years, and just the thought of having to will them to someone who would love them and treat them responsibly is staggering. I wish my blues can live a long long time too. mike

[Disgirl]

Thank you Smiley and David! I will try to post a link to a post soon. This is indeed an interesting topic. I plan to do all I can to keep my discus living a long (healthy of course) life. I think of them as pets just like my cats who I do all I can to give long lives to. I think my Koi will outlive me for sure if I keep them healthy. Once again I must refer to an angelfish and festivum I have. They are both over 11 and look just the same as they did when they were 2 or so. No power feedings ever, and never more than 2 medium sized meals a day of mostly dry foods and a little frozen foods once in awhile. Never sick a day in their lives. These are also flat cichlids (laterally compressed) and live in the same waters as discus in the wild. Not in with my discus of course. Let us keep this thread going for awhile and get lots of people's input. Sheldon, thanks for getting it going :D.
Barb

[Sheldon Goldstien]

this is a great question because if Paul did powerfeed, use beefheart or did things that Sheldon might think out of the norm then it proves that it does not have an adverse affect on the discus life expectancy. of course that would only be one case but it's a start IMO

Well in my experience here is the way the ageing goes. After they have reached full adult size between 5 and 7 inches depending on age and strain and generation. They will begin spawning about every 7 to 10 days. If you take the free swimmers off of them within 24 after they free swim. We for the most part take the new free swimmer away quickly and begin them on a Brine Shrimp diet. Also adding super finely chopped red worms and kelp mix. They love it. Parents will spawn usually within 5 to 7 days after taking off the free swimmers. You can keep this cycle going for up to 9 months without a break. Finally you will see the spawns getting smaller and smaller untill she finally stops laying eggs. After this shut down the fish are generally retired to a life in a large planted tank or sold off. In the trade called proven pairs. No breeder in his right mind sells a production pair at thier peak One production pair can produce many thousands of fish in a relatively short time. In Thailand which still produces most of the worlds discus fish. They place ten pairs of breeders in a pond about 100 feet by 20 feet. Within six months there are thousands of fish in these ponds of varying sizes.

The fish after about 2 years begins to slow way down in growth, in fact a discus might not grow much after 14 months. If they are given proper care and fed with common sense they will stay healthy without much tending to for up to 4 or maybe 5. It is super rare for a discus to live beyond 5 years old. At about 40 months old they will begin to fade. Like when you get old. Skin wrinkles you get smaller your appetite diminishes your metabolism slows. About 2 months before they pass the color may change dramatically. A number of my Watleys that have lived a long time turn a deep PURPLE color. Truely amazing.

Sheldon

[roclement]

Sheldon,

I find your imput amazing, not meaning to be in any way negative or funny here, you write with what seems to be knowledge based on experience so I need to ask, as I am sure many are thinking....what is your background?

Do you breed discus for sale, hobby? How does one aquire such perceived experience that in some parts differs from most established knowledge?

I am curious that's all as I agree with some of what you are saying and know for a fact that a lot of your references to Asian fish, breeding behaviour, etc are true.

Can you help my curiosity and tell us a bit mor about your experience in the hobby, what you do, pictures of fish etc would be awesome!

Rodrigo

[wgtaylor]

I want to present a completly differing view than we unvailed in the Posts The Basic Philosophy of Discus Keeping

1.Temp 78
2.Ph 6.8
3.Filtration ..airstone
4.75 % water change daily
5.Barebottom tanks
6.No electric lites.
7.Daily subdued sunlite
8.!0 hrs of dark
9.Feeding same times everyday.
Sheldon
Hi Sheldon
I'm no expert but 78 is the low end of the water temp they come from.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73758
Bill


Sheldon,
I posted the same question here last month, I asked how many people had a fish that was over 5 years in age, not one response...
Rodrigo
Rod, I answered and a couple others.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73425
Bill

[pcsb23]

Nice fish Paul! Goes to my point that they can live longer then 4/5 years but very few people can do that. How did you raise him? Power feeding, wc, temps, etc?

Rodrigo
Just raised in what I would call a fairly normal way. I got the fish as a 3" tl juvvie. I don't "Power" feed like some do, rather try and feed at regular intervals. It probably got three to four feeds a day, daily or every other day w/c. I don't routinely feed a lot of beefheart, rather use it as part of a balanced diet, so once a day on average, other foods would be fbw, granules (tetra/TonyTan/Ocean Nutrition etc), red & white worms, brine shrimp - so varied.

Temps would have been around 84f (29C) +/- 2f (1C). I have found over the years that if discus are kept for cionsistent lengths of time at temps below 82f (28C) then sooner or later they become ill - I can't explain it but I guess the lower temps may stress them some or reduce their metabolic rate such that it impairs their immune system. Speculation of course.

I guess the one lesson I have learned is we can take liberties with discus, and for a while we will get away with them, but sooner or later they will suffer.

[roclement]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply and the heads up on the past thread, I lost track of it and didn't see the last replies...I guess I should have said power fed instead of force feeding.

Also when I said sterile, I obviously didn't mean in the full sense of the term, maybe I should have used the term "very clean" or even sterile looking...

By the way, it is possible tp force feed a fish, they will eat untill they die as long as food is available, that is why fish get bloated and die if extremely overfed. If you offer food, they will eat non-stop and while we are not literally shoving food down their throats as with gueese, we are "forcing" them to feed by following their natural insitinct.

And when we reference chicken or cows stuffed in coupes or in confined spaces...have you ever seen the picutres of some breeders farms? dozens of fish confined in samml tanks, side by side with no space to move...I don't think that comparsion is that far off...

Rodrigo

[steve.ryall]

Just to confirm what Paul has said, I did look after the fish that Paul posted the photo of, but it sadly passed away about 4 months ago. It was still a lovely fish to the end and I miss it. But it had a long happy life in both of our care.

Steve

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Sheldon,

I find your imput amazing, not meaning to be in any way negative or funny here, you write with what seems to be knowledge based on experience so I need to ask, as I am sure many are thinking....what is your background?

Do you breed discus for sale, hobby? How does one aquire such perceived experience that in some parts differs from most established knowledge?

I am curious that's all as I agree with some of what you are saying and know for a fact that a lot of your references to Asian fish, breeding behaviour, etc are true.

Can you help my curiosity and tell us a bit mor about your experience in the hobby, what you do, pictures of fish etc would be awesome!

Rodrigo
Hi Rod.. I am a 4th generation dairy farmer and bee keeper. I pretty much retired from the dairy end of it..laughing. My sons and daughters and thier families do all the work now. I do the bees. I have been into animals all my life. Discus were my great love though. I do not sell my fish any more. I did though and had a good go of it.

Sheldon

[Rod]

Here is a photo of a 9 year old ghost discus, discus average 7 years imo. ( i have many around this age)

[wgtaylor]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply and the heads up on the past thread, I lost track of it and didn't see the last replies...I guess I should have said power fed instead of force feeding.

Also when I said sterile, I obviously didn't mean in the full sense of the term, maybe I should have used the term "very clean" or even sterile looking...

By the way, it is possible tp force feed a fish, they will eat untill they die as long as food is available, that is why fish get bloated and die if extremely overfed. If you offer food, they will eat non-stop and while we are not literally shoving food down their throats as with gueese, we are "forcing" them to feed by following their natural insitinct.

And when we reference chicken or cows stuffed in coupes or in confined spaces...have you ever seen the picutres of some breeders farms? dozens of fish confined in samml tanks, side by side with no space to move...I don't think that comparsion is that far off...

Rodrigo
Hi Rod,
I havn't experienced discus getting bloat and die of excessive food but get bloat from eating too much dry food then swelling in their gut which causes the bloat. Other foods just lay and decay causing other problems.
Bill

[mmorris]

Like when you get old. Skin wrinkles ...
Sheldon

I've had young fish wrinkle. :)

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Here is a photo of a 9 year old ghost discus, discus average 7 years imo. ( i have many around this age)

Thanks for your thoughts. You the man. That Ghost does have the signs of old age..

Sheldon

[roclement]

This is a good thread!

Sheldon,

Fair enough, it's amazing how different peoples views and notions on the care, feeding, and lifespan of our beloved fish are! For a fish that is known as a difficult to keep species, there seems to be a lot of different theories succesfully keeping and breeding them!

My take so far is that stability and clean water is the number one thing, feeding varies but no matter what your personal philosophy is, as long as you feed them they will grow!

Good stuff!

Rodrigo

[Darrell Ward]

Here is a photo of a 9 year old ghost discus, discus average 7 years imo. ( i have many around this age)

I'd sell that fish on Aquabid as an amazing, rare, new black color morph for $500! Sorry, I couldn't resist. Just kidding of course. :p

[Sheldon Goldstien]

This is a good thread!

Sheldon,

Fair enough, it's amazing how different peoples views and notions on the care, feeding, and lifespan of our beloved fish are! For a fish that is known as a difficult to keep species, there seems to be a lot of different theories succesfully keeping and breeding them!

My take so far is that stability and clean water is the number one thing, feeding varies but no matter what your personal philosophy is, as long as you feed them they will grow!

Good stuff!

Rodrigo

Consistency. I believe if we poled the truely expierenced people here we would see they have adapted a pattern. This pattern aids the fish in establishing HOMOSTASIS. This has its own momentum and can carry animals including us to full fill our genetic inheritance.

Sheldon

[Tito]

Sheldon - I appreciate your experience. Many good questions coming from the readers of this thread. I noticed you keep using "we" when you make statements. You are either telling stories or you are telling the truth. I beleive you are telling the truth. Still..there is more to the story here than you care to share. Just by listening to you I can tell there is more to the story. I don't know if you ran a business selling Discus or not but my bet is that you did at one point. Your statements sound very Jesus like. You speak with authority. That can only come from experience and not the usual, I read this book and this is what I want to share with you all. LOL

I like emperical data. And the emperical data that this great forum has shown me is that not many people have kept their Discus for a long time. No stab at any of the members here not at all - just an observation. And the observation speaks volumes. Someone here said we are at the most speculating. Nothing wrong with speculation but when we are speculating we should just admit it and speak in that type of manner. I have never kept a Discus for more than a year. In fact - this will be my first time doing a few things. 1. Growing out Discus. 2. Keeping them for over a year. 3. Breeding them.

One thing is for SURE. Unless someone speaks out otherwise. No one here has said they've kept a Discus for 10 or 15 years. Sheldon - your statements are going to be hard to oppose without someone saying, this is my experience that proves otherwise.

Edit: I hate to start something but I have to - it's my nature! LOL I don't see the usual suspects posting comments on your threads Sheldon. Taht is speaking tons of volumes to me right now.

[Eddie]

Edit: I hate to start something but I have to - it's my nature! LOL I don't see the usual suspects posting comments on your threads Sheldon. Taht is speaking tons of volumes to me right now.

People don't always have to post to disagree Tito. I know you are expecting some all out brawl on the subject but people can actually be civil, and being able to listen to somebody without contort is what keeps information flowing. People all have different ways of doing things and not one way is better than the other because opinions are all variable. ;)

Eddie

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Sheldon - I appreciate your experience. Many good questions coming from the readers of this thread. I noticed you keep using "we" when you make statements. You are either telling stories or you are telling the truth. I beleive you are telling the truth. Still..there is more to the story here than you care to share. Just by listening to you I can tell there is more to the story. I don't know if you ran a business selling Discus or not but my bet is that you did at one point. Your statements sound very Jesus like. You speak with authority. That can only come from experience and not the usual, I read this book and this is what I want to share with you all. LOL

I like emperical data. And the emperical data that this great forum has shown me is that not many people have kept their Discus for a long time. No stab at any of the members here not at all - just an observation. And the observation speaks volumes. Someone here said we are at the most speculating. Nothing wrong with speculation but when we are speculating we should just admit it and speak in that type of manner. I have never kept a Discus for more than a year. In fact - this will be my first time doing a few things. 1. Growing out Discus. 2. Keeping them for over a year. 3. Breeding them.

One thing is for SURE. Unless someone speaks out otherwise. No one here has said they've kept a Discus for 10 or 15 years. Sheldon - your statements are going to be hard to oppose without someone saying, this is my experience that proves otherwise.

Edit: I hate to start something but I have to - it's my nature! LOL I don't see the usual suspects posting comments on your threads Sheldon. Taht is speaking tons of volumes to me right now.

Hi Tito...Well Tito glad to here you are doing expanded discus keeping. It can be very rewarding. If i can be of service just let me know. I have found that at Simply there are many levels of knowledge. All good ideas inmhview. Im glad it has gone so well. The use of ..we...is the way we speak Laughing

Sheldon

[Tito]

Thanks for the kind words Sheldon and Eddie. Well it's pretty late and it's time for beddy bye. LOL

[Scribbles]

This is a very interesting thread. It just goes to show that there is more than one way to keep a discus. Some of the ideas brought up I agree with such as plenty of clean water and consistant feeding. However, I respectfully disagree with keeping discus at 78 F, but if it works for you go with it. Whatever the methods consistancy is a key factor.

Chris

[Tito]

This is a very interesting thread. It just goes to show that there is more than one way to keep a discus. Some of the ideas brought up I agree with such as plenty of clean water and consistant feeding. However, I respectfully disagree with keeping discus at 78 F, but if it works for you go with it. Whatever the methods consistancy is a key factor.

Chris

I think 78 F sounds a little low myself. 80-82 sounds fair to me though.

[Sheldon Goldstien]

I find it interesting that no one felt just useing an air stone for filtration was kinda odd. Temp seems to be a stopping point. 78/80..80/82..i doubt if the thermometers are accurate enough. They probably have an error point of plus or minus 2 to 4 degrees.

Sheldon

[pcsb23]

..i doubt if the thermometers are accurate enough. They probably have an error point of plus or minus 2 to 4 degrees.
can't speak for others, but I use laboratory grade thermometers, which are precise.

[Darrell Ward]

I find it interesting that no one felt just useing an air stone for filtration was kinda odd. Temp seems to be a stopping point. 78/80..80/82..i doubt if the thermometers are accurate enough. They probably have an error point of plus or minus 2 to 4 degrees.

Sheldon

It doesn't really matter if your thermometer is not accurate by two degrees. It's close enough, two degrees probably ain't killing fish. I've just used an air stone before and no filter, when I didn't have a sponge cycled. It's not that big a deal, you just can't afford to skip daily water changes. ;) Dude, you should really learn to relax and enjoy fish keeping, not treat it like Frankenstein working on his monster. The hobby supposed to be fun, you seem to want to treat it like work. Breathe deep.... :D

[Sheldon Goldstien]

It doesn't really matter if your thermometer is not accurate by two degrees. It's close enough, two degrees probably ain't killing fish. I've just used an air stone before and no filter, when I didn't have a sponge cycled. It's not that big a deal, you just can't afford to skip daily water changes. ;) Dude, you should really learn to relax and enjoy fish keeping, not treat it like Frankenstein working on his monster. The hobby supposed to be fun, you seem to want to treat it like work. Breathe deep.... :D

Funny. Its a live, its a live...Its work, its fun, what more can you ask for on Gods green earth. Being a diary farmer all my life work is something you cant avoid.

Sheldon

[wgtaylor]

Philosophical questions are fun and generate plenty of responses but doing so in the beginner section can generate confusion for the inexperienced that come here from all over the world. Just something to concider. :)

For an accurate thermometer I use one that can be purchased inexpensively from the food section at a grocery store. Calabrate in a glass of crushed ice and water to 32 F.
Pretty accurate and reads temp in a couple seconds.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Water%20Change/temp-adj.jpg

[mmorris]

I find it interesting that no one felt just useing an air stone for filtration was kinda odd. Sheldon

I took it as filtration AND airstone, because I fail to see how an airstone can provide filtration. You leave your fish seriously dependant on wc's but OK.....

[Disgirl]

Great idea Bill! I'm gettin' one! Thanks!
Barb :)

[Tito]

How do I become a "Discus Hobbyist Challenger"? I love to challenge! LOL

NO fair.

[Darrell Ward]

Funny. Its a live, its a live...Its work, its fun, what more can you ask for on Gods green earth. Being a diary farmer all my life work is something you cant avoid.

Sheldon

Dairy farming is hard work. I grew up on a horse farm. Dairy cows are even more work than raising horses.

[Darrell Ward]

Philosophical questions are fun and generate plenty of responses but doing so in the beginner section can generate confusion for the inexperienced that come here from all over the world. Just something to concider. :)

For an accurate thermometer I use one that can be purchased inexpensively from the food section at a grocery store. Calabrate in a glass of crushed ice and water to 32 F.
Pretty accurate and reads temp in a couple seconds.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Water%20Change/temp-adj.jpg

That's a cool looking thermometer! It even says "Taylor" on it. :D

[Scribbles]

I find it interesting that no one felt just useing an air stone for filtration was kinda odd.Sheldon

I think of using an air stone for aiding in gas exchange only. You wouldn't need filtration if water changes were sufficient. Some of the discus growers in Asia don't use filtration at all, just 100% water changes 2-3 times daily.

Chris

[Rod]

I'd sell that fish on Aquabid as an amazing, rare, new black color morph for $500! Sorry, I couldn't resist. Just kidding of course. :p

lol Darrell, unfortuntly that one died only a few months after the photo was taken. He was a stunning fish in his youth.


I find it interesting that no one felt just useing an air stone for filtration was kinda odd. Temp seems to be a stopping point. 78/80..80/82..i doubt if the thermometers are accurate enough. They probably have an error point of plus or minus 2 to 4 degrees.

Sheldon
I don't find the use of airstones odd, what i find odd is how nothing has really changed re filtration in discus tanks in many many years. Where are the filters that save us from doing so many water changes?? The technology is there, but noone is embrassing it.

[roclement]

"I don't find the use of airstones odd, what i find odd is how nothing has really changed re filtration in discus tanks in many many years. Where are the filters that save us from doing so many water changes?? The technology is there, but noone is embrassing it"

Great point!!! We can purify water with so many more toxic chemicals then fish waste but we can't have a comercially available tank filter that can clean that up for us...

Rodrigo

[Sheldon Goldstien]

lol Darrell, unfortuntly that one died only a few months after the photo was taken. He was a stunning fish in his youth.


I don't find the use of airstones odd, what i find odd is how nothing has really changed re filtration in discus tanks in many many years. Where are the filters that save us from doing so many water changes?? The technology is there, but noone is embrassing it.

Hi Rod..most people these days use a sponge filter and some kind of mechanical device. Like these water fall filters.There are trickle filters and wet dry filters and big system filters that are connected to a number of tanks. What kind of filtration do you use and how can you improve it? I rather like water changeing. SInce i only use a small airstone water changes are essential for my fish.

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Philosophical questions are fun and generate plenty of responses but doing so in the beginner section can generate confusion for the inexperienced that come here from all over the world. Just something to concider. :)

For an accurate thermometer I use one that can be purchased inexpensively from the food section at a grocery store. Calabrate in a glass of crushed ice and water to 32 F.
Pretty accurate and reads temp in a couple seconds.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Water%20Change/temp-adj.jpg

I think with all the info that has been generated in this thread the beginner can feel assured that he has been given good advice on all sides and from many experienced keepers. For the beginner a good temp will be between 80/ 84. I hope this resolves this temp issue

thanks

Sheldon

[roclement]

Cna't say enough how much I like this thread! It has been respectful and productive showing that we can all get along without agreeing on everything!

I am splitting my smaller fish into two batches and changing the temperatures, very slowly, on one of them from 86 to 80 degrees...just want to see if in the next few months I can see any measurable difference in temp variance alone...gives me something interesting to do! :)

Rodrigo

[wgtaylor]

Cna't say enough how much I like this thread! It has been respectful and productive showing that we can all get along without agreeing on everything!

I am splitting my smaller fish into two batches and changing the temperatures, very slowly, on one of them from 86 to 80 degrees...just want to see if in the next few months I can see any measurable difference in temp variance alone...gives me something interesting to do! :)

Rodrigo

Great idea. I think it wont take long to see them get sluggish at 80 F but sure would be interested in your feedback. I've had heater failure and temp of 78 F, they quit eating altogether. :(
oops.....I ment quit eating at 75 F, not 78 F.
Bill



I think with all the info that has been generated in this thread the beginner can feel assured that he has been given good advice on all sides and from many experienced keepers. For the beginner a good temp will be between 80/ 84. I hope this resolves this temp issue

thanks

Sheldon

I try to keep my discus between 82 -84 F. I set my contest discus at 85 F to try and get their metabolism pumped a little for growout, competition driven. :)
Bill

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Great idea. I think it wont take long to see them get sluggish at 80 F but sure would be interested in your feedback. I've had heater failure and temp of 78 F, they quit eating altogether. :(
Bill




I try to keep my discus between 82 -84 F. I set my contest discus at 85 F to try and get their metabolism pumped a little for growout, competition driven. :)
Bill

Inmho. another key factor in speedy growth is having the fish in the right size tank for thier size. Now we are also talking bio mass. This is a critical factor. Many hobbyists do not take this factor into consideration. I have done extensive research into speedy growth versus tank size amount of feeding per day versus water changes and tempertaures versus ph and water hardness. Now take a deep breathe and relax.

1 free swimmers 100 per 2 gallons
2. 1/16 inch to 3/4 inch 100 per 10 gallons
3. 3/4 to one inch 100 per 20 gallons
4. one inch to 1.5 inch 50 per 20 gallons
5. 1.5 inch to 2 inch 100 per 50 gallons

From two inches to three inches...for super rapid growth 6 two inch for 20 gal
from 3inch to 4 inch 4 for 20 gals from 4 inch to 6 inch 4 for 30 gal

feeding for super rapid growth . 2inch three times a day, wc three times a day 75%..temp 82
feeding for super rapid growth..3inch 2 times a day, wc three times a day 75%..temp 82
feeding for super rapid growth 4 to 6 inch 2 times a day, wc twice a day 75%.. temp 80

Sheldon

[mmorris]

I don't find the use of airstones odd, what i find odd is how nothing has really changed re filtration in discus tanks in many many years. Where are the filters that save us from doing so many water changes?? The technology is there, but noone is embrassing it.

Hmmmm an economic niche. I'd buy a few. Who can pull it together? :)

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Inmho. another key factor in speedy growth is having the fish in the right size tank for thier size. Now we are also talking bio mass. This is a critical factor. Many hobbyists do not take this factor into consideration. I have done extensive research into speedy growth versus tank size amount of feeding per day versus water changes and tempertaures versus ph and water hardness. Now take a deep breathe and relax.

1 free swimmers 100 per 2 gallons
2. 1/16 inch to 3/4 inch 100 per 10 gallons
3. 3/4 to one inch 100 per 20 gallons
4. one inch to 1.5 inch 50 per 20 gallons
5. 1.5 inch to 2 inch 100 per 50 gallons

From two inches to three inches...for super rapid growth 6 two inch for 20 gal
from 3inch to 4 inch 4 for 20 gals from 4 inch to 6 inch 4 for 30 gal

feeding for super rapid growth . 2inch three times a day, wc three times a day 75%..temp 82
feeding for super rapid growth..3inch 2 times a day, wc three times a day 75%..temp 82
feeding for super rapid growth 4 to 6 inch 2 times a day, wc twice a day 75%.. temp 80

Sheldon

With today's technology/filtration techniques those numbers could be increased quite a bit, given that stress due to overcrowding doesnt become an issue. At bare minimum you could maintain your above stocking densities with drastically reduced water changes by using more efficient filtration and management techniques. I do agree with you 100% that high stocking densities will usually yield better results in terms of growth/quality. It's that competition among the fish that drives their voracious appetites. If fish dont eat, they dont grow. More they eat at each feeding, the faster they grow....given that water parameters remain stable (ammonia/nitrite, alkalinity, temp, DO, etc).

-Ryan

[Sheldon Goldstien]

With today's technology/filtration techniques those numbers could be increased quite a bit, given that stress due to overcrowding doesnt become an issue. At bare minimum you could maintain your above stocking densities with drastically reduced water changes by using more efficient filtration and management techniques. I do agree with you 100% that high stocking densities will usually yield better results in terms of growth/quality. It's that competition among the fish that drives their voracious appetites. If fish dont eat, they dont grow. More they eat at each feeding, the faster they grow....given that water parameters remain stable (ammonia/nitrite, alkalinity, temp, DO, etc).

-Ryan

Hi Ryan..I can tell you this. These stats are tried and true. No matter how much bio filtration you would add to these tanks WC can not be slighted ever. I do not use filters as stated earlier. WC is my due diligence. You simply can not get away with anything less even if you have super bio filtration. Thats if you want super rapid growth. The heavy densisty is critical to super growth.

Thanks again for your thoughts

Sheldon

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Im not saying the WC's could be stopped entirely, but they could be reduced quite a lot if done right. A lot of it involves the type of food that is fed. A clean food is essential...one that produces as little excess ammonia, remains stable in the water, and is of proper nutritional value for the fish being fed (proper protein, lipid, calories, etc). There is a lot more involved than just adding additional biological filtration to a system to say that water changes can be reduced. Granted adequate biological filtration is absolutely essential (as well as the overall design efficiencies of the biofilter). You could even go so far to say that beefheart/seafood diets increase our needs to do water changes due to how improperly balanced they are (excessive protein for example gives us an increased amount of ammonia in the water which strains the biofilter and forces us to do a water change).

We are beginning nutritional studies on discus, developing diets that take a step away from the beefheart/seafood mix and into the pelleted/gelatin based food. Aside from determining proper protein, lipid, and calorie levels of say a 30 day old discus; we are also trying to determine an ideal conditioning diet for adults to give the best results in terms of quantity of fry and quality of fry spawned. On top of all that we are also using recirculating system technologies to maintain the water quality during times of intensive feeding (more so than traditional filtration methods). One major topic of our research includes the need to reduce water changes (standing from a "green" perspective) using such technology. We are still in the beginning stages of our research, but im sure it will be interesting to find out and compare our notes to previous attempts by other Univsersities/facilities.

After all, there is so little conclusive research out there done specifically on discus that any research is good.....it brings us all a little closer to making the hobby a little more enjoyable (or does the unknown make it so enjoyable?).

-Ryan

[rickztahone]

Sheldon i'm curious if you happen to have pictures of your discus by any chance?

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Im not saying the WC's could be stopped entirely, but they could be reduced quite a lot if done right. A lot of it involves the type of food that is fed. A clean food is essential...one that produces as little excess ammonia, remains stable in the water, and is of proper nutritional value for the fish being fed (proper protein, lipid, calories, etc). There is a lot more involved than just adding additional biological filtration to a system to say that water changes can be reduced. Granted adequate biological filtration is absolutely essential (as well as the overall design efficiencies of the biofilter). You could even go so far to say that beefheart/seafood diets increase our needs to do water changes due to how improperly balanced they are (excessive protein for example gives us an increased amount of ammonia in the water which strains the biofilter and forces us to do a water change).

We are beginning nutritional studies on discus, developing diets that take a step away from the beefheart/seafood mix and into the pelleted/gelatin based food. Aside from determining proper protein, lipid, and calorie levels of say a 30 day old discus; we are also trying to determine an ideal conditioning diet for adults to give the best results in terms of quantity of fry and quality of fry spawned. On top of all that we are also using recirculating system technologies to maintain the water quality during times of intensive feeding (more so than traditional filtration methods). One major topic of our research includes the need to reduce water changes (standing from a "green" perspective) using such technology. We are still in the beginning stages of our research, but im sure it will be interesting to find out and compare our notes to previous attempts by other Univsersities/facilities.

After all, there is so little conclusive research out there done specifically on discus that any research is good.....it brings us all a little closer to making the hobby a little more enjoyable (or does the unknown make it so enjoyable?).

-Ryan

Good luck with your research

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Sheldon i'm curious if you happen to have pictures of your discus by any chance?

Yes i do..but at the moment i do not have a computer friendly camera. Also i understand that when you post pics on Simply they become the domain of this site.

Sheldon

[wgtaylor]

Hi Sheldon
You know the old saying, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Digital cameras are extremely cheap now and you can post your pictures on photobucket.com or anywhere you wish.
Then you can link those pictures to this site. I think that method is preferred because this site doesn't have to store your pictures on their servers, saving space on their servers.
Just colors up the posts if you find a need it's easy. :)
Bill

[brewmaster15]

Yes i do..but at the moment i do not have a computer friendly camera. Also i understand that when you post pics on Simply they become the domain of this site.

Sheldon That is not true. This site will never use a photo that a member posts unless permission is explicitedly given by that member. I'd be interested to learn what gave you the idea otherwise.

Actually I'd rather know how many times we have to ban you before you get the idea...Marc Fleishman, aka American Breeder...aka..tinsel town tommy...aka discusmonk...aka discus toad.... and now AKA Sheldon Goldstein.

At least change your posting styles and stop having fun at the expense of this forum's membership.

Sorry everyone...I should stepped in here sooner.

-al