Gravel Cleaning/Water Changes

[JimG817]

This is my first post. I have enjoyed all of the knowledge that all of you have been sharing and your discus are amazing. I am currently in the running the community phase of a 215 gallon community/discus tank. I have gravel as my substrate, though i know most of ya'll say sand (I already had it!). I have a few questions, if I decide to use the Safety Siphon system or a reasonable facimile to the Jehmco. Can I hook a siphon to a powerhead or some other internal pump to remove the debris in the gravel? Second, how can i refill through the safety siphon? How often should the gravel be changed? If I am not interested in breeding, can I do less than daily changes? If so, at what frequency?

Jim

[Jhhnn]

I'm pretty sure that you could attach a powerhead like a maxijet to a gravel vac, it's just an issue of adapting it up and keeping the gravel out of the pump...

You can also turn off the powerhead on the safety siphon and run water from the tap or aging barrel pump backwards thru the powerhead. Or take off the powerhead to fill. Lots of people start out with a python, add the safety siphon. The python works fine for filling, not so much for draining...

It's extremely important to understand your water. Some people must age their water of run it through a degassing tower to get rid of dissolved CO2. Test the pH of a sample straight from the tap, compare that to a sample that's been aerated for 24 hrs. If the pH goes up substantially, you can't fill from the tap, at least not when doing large water changes. If you can fill from the tap, get the temp right and add water conditioner to the tank before you start to fill.

The gravel will last indefinitely. Your water changing regimen depends on a lot of factors, stocking and feeding levels being the primary determinants. Test the water often, particularly at first, keep free ammonia and nitrites very near or at zero, try to hold down nitrates. Keep in mind that young and sub-adult discus require a *lot* of food if they're to grow out properly, and that more water changes are generally better. Don't flirt with disaster- err on the side of caution. Be prepared to change more water than absolutely necessary to establish a buffer, a safety zone...

[JimG817]

Jhhnn,
Thanks for all the great advise. I will make sure to test my tap water as soon as I get home from work (where i am now!). I currently am mixing waste water and RO/DI water together in a 30 gallon garbage can. When you say aerate the tap water for 24 hours, is running a power head that agitates the surface sufficient or do I need to add air to the water?

Right now my plan is to do 30 gal water changes daily and clean the gravel every 3rd water change. I had initially thought about doing WC every other day but my discus will be too cool to me to risk endangering so I have changed my mind. Thanks to all the folks here!! Does this schedule sound adequate?

Thanks again,
Jim

[zn394]

The schedule is fine, but what do you mean by "waste water"?

[JimG817]

the RO waste water is the water that is fed off that still has all of the other components of tap water that is blocked my the RO membrane. When water is ran through RO it has no dissolved solids or salts or anything, the water that is left over is the waste water.

Jim

[Jhhnn]

The powerhead method should work fine for testing purposes.

I'm not really a very good source wrt community and gravel bottom aquariums. My discus live by themselves in BB tanks. It's just easier, and I wanted to do what I could to insure success when I returned to discus keeping awhile back after many years absence.

I'm sure, however, that keeping stocking levels low and husbandry efforts high pays off in the long run, regardless of the other variables. I'm also sure that water quality testing is imperative, regardless of how well the fish seem to be doing or how much water is changed. It's really a pretty crude indicator of what's going on in our tanks, but if the numbers are right, chances are good that the fish will be, too... I'd recommend using them as your guide to water changing because every aquarium is a unique environment. What you propose seems reasonable, but it may or may not work out that way, depending on a lot of undefined variables.

[David Rose]

Hi Jim,

There are a couple of other threads going within the last week that talk about the saftey siphon for water changes. I'm in the testing phase of wanting to simplify and speed up my water changes. There are a lot of variables and ways to go depending on your goals and costs involved.

As for me, I have a two tanks running and therefore have a Python and Marina version siphon, I have well water and need to age given my PH jumps up over a 48hr period significantly. I use a 100gal aging barrel with a 1" female bulkhead at the top and bottom. I've attached a Mag Drive 1800 inline/externally after trying it as a submersible, which is attached to the bottom 1" bulkhead with a brass ball valve shut off for when not in use. As a submersible, I found it pumped more gph used inline externally. I have tried a regular garden hose and one of those wind up plastic hoses on a reel. The wind up is easier to manage, but doesn't allow as much water flow as a 5/8" (should be food grade/non-toxic type) garden hose IMO. It's a matter of preference. MY RO system drains into the barrel and I can test and pretreat the aged water as needed. I use Prime regardless for peace of mind rather than requirement given I don't have chlorine and chlorimines to worry about. I'm preparing to install a float valve and auto shut off to complete my storage system. I do have an X10 with remote to start/stop the Mag drive from my main level given my storage barrel is on the basement level and I have about 15' head to compensate for with the use of the Mag Drive 1800. This is my system set up for filling my tanks currently.

To drain, I decided to not get the Safety Siphon with power head for total cost purposes and decided to by a Maxi-Jet 1200 for about $26 and attached it to my current Marina siphon hose. It comes with all I needed and pumps 295gph, but it's a matter of preference to get a more powerful power head. You could also buy the hose from any hardware such as HD, Lowes, or ACE, but you'd have to deal with an alternative vacuum tube to be adapted to the hose. Assuming you have at least a siphon at this point already, I let the power head drain the majority of the water from the tank and use the vacuum tube and smaller hose separately to drain off waste/debris into a 5 gallon barrel at the same time the tank is being drained by the power head. I have a 140gal that is not planted, so it only takes 1-2 five gallon bucket to completed the vacuuming process on a sand substrate. With the use of the power head, I drain to my side yard in good weather, but will probably feed the hose to a utility sink in the winter months.

Using this process, I can change water in 45 minutes on my 140 and 46 gallon aquariums now.

Notes: If you get the Safety siphon, you will still need to buy vinyl tubing as the description details for the Safety siphon state, you will need a Python or similar siphon. That said, having to buy the Marina or similar, you will already have what you need to fill your tank directly from the sink assuming you have no water quality issues to compensate for.

PS: I did try to attach my tubing and vacuum to the Maxi-jet directly; however, my tank is 27 or 32" deep and vacuum tube is 24" and the Maxi-jet 1200 wasn't powerful enough to create a siphon. I'm fine with using the bucket vacuum process for the 10 minutes it takes, but may eventually will try to get the attached vacuum to work with a more powerful power head or see if I can prime the siphon better as I further test. That said, I would definitely recommend a more powerful power head such 500+ gph.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Best,

[JimG817]

Thanks Jhhnn I will keep up on monitoring all phase of the water in my system from the tap to the show tank.

Dlr, thanks for the insight into your system. I live in Dallas, TX area, so we have no basements!! My water storage will be in the garage, as soon as i can get my hands on something to use. I would like something at least 100 gals or so. I have seen the other threads about the safety syphon and like the setup of them. I think I am going to just use a garden hose for a drain hose. I am not quiet sure what to use as a fill hose those. Are garden hoses or other rubber hoses safe for the filling process?
Dlr, a question. What are you using as an additive to you RO water to make it right? Is there a reason you aren't using part of the waste water from your RO system to add back?
Thanks,
Jim

[David Rose]

Food grade barrels are listed on Craigslist.org pretty often. I started with a 55gal, but given I set up additional tanks I needed something bigger. Some folks have been lucky to find bigger on Craigslist. I ended up getting this one from Plastic-Mart. http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=3421

As for hoses, 5/8" garden or vinyl are both fine to fill. Whatever is easiest to roll up and connect easily. I leave mine connected permanently. I would buy a new hose (should be food grade/non-toxic type) used only for filling and just run water through it first to rinse out any dust or debris.

I'm on well water and have a Culligan RO system after my water softening system that supplies a kitchen faucet for drinking water, the refrigerator water dispenser, and a drain to my storage tank. The Culligan system boast of 1:1 efficiency, so I wasn't so concerned with waste water at the time. I use Kent's RO Right currently, but may consider using waste water later on if I can automate this. If I were paying for city water or had less efficiency, I would be more motivated to do something now. For now it's on next year's project list.

[Jhhnn]

The 55gal plastic barrels can be daisy-chained together pretty easily using uniseals and pvc pipe, if you have the floor space. 275 gal food grade totes are also available sometimes on craigslist for cheap. Avionics30 has a thread somewhere about 'em. They'd be great in a garage, but they won't fit thru the door into most homes...

I'd be careful wrt garden hoses for filling. Some are fine, I'm sure- others maybe not... you know how if the hose is laying out in the summer and you turn it on to get a drink that the water can taste bad until it's run for quite awhile? I'm sure it'd taste bad to the fish, as well, so give it the taste test, if nothing else...

My water changing system kinda lamely described in this thread-

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74240

Fish pics in the same photobucket link, too...

[tcyiu]

I'd be careful wrt garden hoses for filling. Some are fine, I'm sure- others maybe not... you know how if the hose is laying out in the summer and you turn it on to get a drink that the water can taste bad until it's run for quite awhile? I'm sure it'd taste bad to the fish, as well, so give it the taste test, if nothing else...

Jhhnn is right. For draining water, a garden hose is OK but not great since part of it will be submerged in your tank. For filling a tank, it is definite No-No. The issue is that garden hoses have plasticizers to keep the hose flexible. This chemical will leach into the water, and even more so when under pressure or when warmed up. It is toxic, but I don't know the level of toxicity. The general rule is, if it smells bad, don't put it in your tank.

There are potable water hoses (e.g. for RV drinking water hookups). These are typically white with blue stripes. You can use these. Depending on length, it might be cheaper to buy lengths of 5/8" clear vinyl hoses at Home Depot. You can also buy "repair" kits that allow you to affix a standard hose connector to the vinyl hose. I do this for my water fill hose.

BTW Jim, what do you mean by this?:


I had initially thought about doing WC every other day but my discus will be too cool to me to risk endangering so I have changed my mind.

What part of your water change regime could endanger the fish? That part has me puzzled.

Tim

[David Rose]

Tim that's amazing regarding the use of a garden hose to fill your tank. This is the first I've read that warning on SD. I don't submerge mine, but I guess it's a matter of time then with the contact during transfer.

I'll definitely will have to research the garden hose I use.

[Jhhnn]

They're getting pretty proud of clear vinyl tubing at the home centers. Something like this might be a better buy-

http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/?t=5&m=g1&itemNumber=74512

For low head applications, these pumps look to be a good buy- I've not used them-

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9849

Their model 3000 seems particularly attractive for the purpose...

I think JimG817 started out with the idea of changing water every third day, then moved up to daily, which explains the comment about not wanting to endanger his fish... He may be able to back off from there, dunno, but it's a good place to start...

[tcyiu]

I think JimG817 started out with the idea of changing water every third day, then moved up to daily, which explains the comment about not wanting to endanger his fish... He may be able to back off from there, dunno, but it's a good place to start...

Thanks for that. I read it out of context. Hey Jim, every third day is not that bad. On my adult discus tanks, I change water every week. On my juvenile grow out tank, I change every day. It all depends on how much you feed (and how much they poo).

BTW Jhhnn, the link to the RV boat hose is exactly what I had in mind. AND the price/ft is cheaper than the clear vinyl hoses I have been using. If it were me, I would definitely snip off the existing fittings at either end and replace with the plastic "repair" fittings. I have plexi tanks, and the idea of a metal fitting banging around as I change water gives me the willies.

Dave,
I learned about plasticizers when I was looking to hook up city water to my boat's water system. Aside from getting a pressure regulator (so as not to blow up the plumbing), the boating forums were adamant about getting potable water hoses. Subsequent research convinced me.

Tim

[David Rose]

Thanks Tim and Jhhnn. I'll be sure mine is is labeled food grade/non-toxic or replace it.

Update: mine is food grade. I've revised my earlier post to include. Thanks for the heads up on this topic guys! Amazing how much reading I do on SD and various other resources and haven't seen this info before.

Sorry Jim, for misleading you, but you can rely on folks on SD to bring their personal knowledge to the table as well and make helpful post for us all.

[JimG817]

Good morning to all responders and thanks for all the invaluable information!! I will definitely NOT be using a garden hose to fill!! Thanks Tim for that!!

Dlr thanks for the link to the storage tanks. I will use it if I can't get one elsewhere on Ebay or Craigslist.

Jhhnn thanks for the links I will be using them today.

Tim are the plastic repair fittings available anywhere?

Do any of you know how i would set up an auto topoff for my sump, especially the triggering it to fill? i know how to shut it off.

Jim

[Don Trinko]

Water change and Bare bottom/sand or gravel bring many different opinions. I have 4 Discus tanks, 2 with sand 2 with gravel.

1. BB is less work. You see the crud with BB and to some extent with sand but you don't with gravel. Cleaning the gravel/sand is neccisary. I have never actualy changed the sand or gravel.
2. I water change 50% twice a week.
There are many threads on WC. It is totaly different If you are raising fry, feeding different, over stocking etc. All IMO; Don T.

[David Rose]

RE: Auto top/shut off example

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14690

If you use the banner at the top of the SD page, it will benefit SD given they are an affliate.

[JimG817]

Thanks Tom and David!

[tcyiu]

Tim are the plastic repair fittings available anywhere?


Pretty much any home and garden or hardware store will carry what you need. Here's a link to something on Amazon. I'm not suggesting you buy from there. Just look at the pretty pictures ;-)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BWRNWS

Note that there are metal screws holding the two halves of the clamp together. If you were really fanatical about it, I suppose you could swap those out for stainless steel.

Tim

[JimG817]

WOW Tim those are amazing pictures.:D Thanks for link.

And thanks again for everyones imput especially Jhhnn, Tim, Don and David!! I feel like I might know what I'm doing!!!!

[David Rose]

We've all had folks here on SD help us along the way...that's what this site is all about!

Best of luck and I look forward to seeing pictures of your fish and tank set up. :)

PS: Here's some recent pictures of my discus that didn't look so good a couple of weeks ago having various issues going on.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=576717#post576717

[JimG817]

WOW WOW WOW!!! Those look amazing!!! Where did you get the white and yellow ones from? I also like the your friend the red and white one and the yellow and red one. I am not up on strains so what types are they? I only hope that my discus look have as nice as those do. What are you feeding them?

Jim

[David Rose]

The two white & yellow are APDs (Albino Pearl Diamonds) from Kenny (Kenny's Discus)

The Red/White is a "Blue Pigeon Blood" and the Orange/White is a "Silver Pigeon Blood that I bought from an SD member, but came from Hans-Discus, which are Stendker Discus.

The Red with Yellow or White faces are both RGDs (Red Gold Diamonds) that are about 3 months apart in age. The white face still has some coloring up to do and the face and body coloring will be impacted by what you feed them as well. I purchased these from Eric (Carolina Discus) who raised them, but they came from Kenny's Discus in the states.

All those mentioned are SD Sponsors, who I have purchased from so far and can't say enough about their customer service and quality of stock. I would also like to mention that Kenny imports from Forrest directly from Malaysia who breeds most of my beauties! His listed in the Sponsor section as well.

As for feeding: currently they are getting a variety of foods such as Al's (owner of the SD) frozen beef heart mix (surf & turf), Hikari frozen blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, AngelsPlus.com High-Pro Growth formula flake, sometimes Ocean Nutrition Reef formula flakes, Thera bits and AngelsPlus Color bits and or Earth worm sticks.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Jhhnn]

I don't think you need an auto topoff for your sump, not if you're changing water/ refilling on a regular basis. I just let the level on my one wet/dry sump kinda run wild a little bit. Doesn't seem to be an issue, so long as it's not too low. Even if the water level is a little high, up slightly into the bioballs, no problems. My sump is a little on the large side, however. The one thing you want to be sure of is that the sump doesn't overflow when the pump is off for any reason.

Reef keepers need to pay more attention, for sure, since salinity is an issue for them...

[JimG817]

David,
Thanks for all the information on your discus. I will keep you in mind if I have any more questions.

Jhhnn,
I was always told that too much bubbles/aireation can cause "pop-eye". Is this not an issue in your experience?

Jim

[Jhhnn]

David,
Thanks for all the information on your discus. I will keep you in mind if I have any more questions.

Jhhnn,
I was always told that too much bubbles/aireation can cause "pop-eye". Is this not an issue in your experience?

Jim

Meh. My tanks are heavily aerated, particularly the one w/ the wet/dry sump filter- it's the whole point of wet/dry filtration. I blow off excess capacity from the airpump via large airstones in the aging barrels, as well.

Never a problem. I figure the whole bit wrt aeration and popeye is an old fishtale. Popeye is a very dangerous condition, usually bacterial, highly contagious- fish that have it are generally goners... I lost a tankful of altum angels to it 30 years ago. Once it started, I was helpless. We didn't have as many antibiotics as we do today, but we didn't have as many resistant disease organisms, either...

Nasty stuff...

[JimG817]

Yes Jhhnn it is and was particular back then in the stone ages!!! I was just starting out then. I remember getting a trio of wild blues from the wholesaler that i worked at and thinking they we the greatest ever!! It was a 55 with a the trio and a trio of Uaru Cichlids and an 8" Synodontis Angelicus!! :D

Jim