super red, naturally??

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

hey guys...so I have been kind of taking interest and shopping around for some reeeaallllly RED discus. I had purchased some ARGDs a while back, they are lovely fish, but they have lost most of the red about them due to lack of color enhancing feeds. I was wondering, are there any SUPER red fish out there, that will stay just as red as how they are advertised, even WITHOUT color enhancers? like, if I bought a flamingo or a super red melon, or a stendker fire red...would these fish STAY solid red without a red enhancing mix?? or are all these SUPER reds that we see, super red due to astaxanthin?

any thoughts? what red discus will STAY red red red??!!

Im actually gonna have a big can of tetra color bits by the end of the day, I may try feeding these pretty heavy in the albino tank and see if it brightens up my ARGDs....good idea?

thanks for any imput guys, its much appreciated.

take care everyone, thank you!:D:)

[brewmaster15]

Jason,
The color red in fish is derived from pigment they ingest...Discus can not make red pigments unless they are given it in some food sources... There are pigments in various algae and invertebrates as well as plants that are eaten by fish and then deposited into pigment cells.. This happens naturally as the fish ages.

Astaxanthins are a natural pigment from an algae... and though they will color up a red fish nicely....theres alot of different pigment sources out there....some natural, some potent chemical analogues of natural ones (carophyl pink for ex.)

hth,
al

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

I get it now, so Al, what your saying is...all red fish basically have the red gene that will allow them to go super red, but they wont show that super red naturally? maybe more and more as the fish ages, but the super red fish are all enhanced by some sort of ingested red enhancer, weather it be natural or chemical? so if you see some super duper red RGDs for sale, at say 3.5 inch size...they have been fed with lots of red enhancer, and if you purchase the fish and dont give it some form of red enhancer in its diet, it will lose its red??

did I get that right? LOL!

thanks alot for explaining that to me Al, I have talked with some sponsors about it abit, I was thinking along that track, just wanted to clear it up and see what everyone has to say. thank you!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jason,
Thats pretty much what I am saying, just remember that not all pigments are created equal.... case in point the natural pigment Astaxanthin as found in a species of algae... Its used commonly to color up fish red and in things like salmon to make the meat pink...laboratories looked at this pigment and and developed one thats chemically the same( an analogue) ..called it carophyll pink.....the difference is Carophyll pink is made in a lab, and is formulated to be better absorbed so it works better and faster than Astaxanthin at coloring a fish red... This pigment has found widespread use in the ornamental fish industry as a result.

If you were to buy a fish thats colored with carophyll pink...you probably won't be able to maintain that degree of red if you don't feed it the same pigments...

There is also the whole realm of Hormones and hormone like chemicals which govern the development of secondary sex characteristics like color...These too, can affect how a fish colors up by sending the fish signals that make it think its sexually mature and therefore its time to color up for mating displays. ..but again... these only affect how pigments are used when they have been consumed...

If your ARGDs have lost much of their red and you want it back, I would suggest getting them on a diet higher in red pigments... Home made foods with naturose (astaxanthin) added would be good, commercial feeds high in krill( a good red source) like NLS and Ocean nutrition... Thats should help alot...

hth,
al

[Rod]

Hi Jason, I think Al is right. Customers demand lots of color in discus even when they are very small, so carophyll pink is commonly used to enhance before sale. And it does back off unless you have the right enhancers. However ,as they mature the colors will again become more intense. The only ingredients i feed to my discus that contain pigments are prawn and tetra color bits. Also spinach which contains lutein for yellow. If they have the gene for super red color, then even this modest amount of pigment should be enough to make them spectacular imo. Most discus need 12/18 months to show full color. Importers can ask for uncolored discus if buying in advance, i have for my own collection, good suppliers shouldn't have a problem with that if so requested. Personally i don't mind watching the color come in over time, but most people want instant....

[silent_thunder]

Hi Jason,
Thats pretty much what I am saying, just remember that not all pigments are created equal.... case in point the natural pigment Astaxanthin as found in a species of algae... Its used commonly to color up fish red and in things like salmon to make the meat pink...laboratories looked at this pigment and and developed one thats chemically the same( an analogue) ..called it carophyll pink.....the difference is Carophyll pink is made in a lab, and is formulated to be better absorbed so it works better and faster than Astaxanthin at coloring a fish red... This pigment has found widespread use in the ornamental fish industry as a result.

If you were to buy a fish thats colored with carophyll pink...you probably won't be able to maintain that degree of red if you don't feed it the same pigments...

There is also the whole realm of Hormones and hormone like chemicals which govern the development of secondary sex characteristics like color...These too, can affect how a fish colors up by sending the fish signals that make it think its sexually mature and therefore its time to color up for mating displays. ..but again... these only affect how pigments are used when they have been consumed...

If your ARGDs have lost much of their red and you want it back, I would suggest getting them on a diet higher in red pigments... Home made foods with naturose (astaxanthin) added would be good, commercial feeds high in krill( a good red source) like NLS and Ocean nutrition... Thats should help alot...

hth,
al

Hi Al...

WHat if your feeding them food with high sources of astaxanthin and the color does not come back? I have a steckler red fire or red fire =L= I can`t remember the name who lost his color within a few weeks whilst the other remains a great color...

Then what?

Thx

D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al...

WHat if your feeding them food with high sources of astaxanthin and the color does not come back? I have a steckler red fire or red fire =L= I can`t remember the name who lost his color within a few weeks whilst the other remains a great color...

Then what?

Thx

D

Hi,
If I had that situation where all the fish were looking good colorwise and one was not....I would suspect that the fish was ill, maybe parasites or some other stress factor and take it from that angle when dealing with it.

hth,
al

[hedut]

Hi,
If I had that situation where all the fish were looking good colorwise and one was not....I would suspect that the fish was ill, maybe parasites or some other stress factor and take it from that angle when dealing with it.

hth,
al


Question:
So what would you do in that situation? do you separate that fish?

thanks
hendri

[tcyiu]

... commercial feeds high in krill( a good red source) like NLS and Ocean nutrition...
hth,
al

Hehe. I fed my Red Turqs Spectra A+ which is high in krill. They turned bright orange. I thought it was kinda cool. But my wife hated that shade of orange, so I stopped feeding and they're back to normal. :p

Tim

[brewmaster15]

Question:
So what would you do in that situation? do you separate that fish?

thanks
hendri

Hi Hendri,
Yes I would separate that fish...observe it in isolation for several days... make sure its eating well, and the feces are normal...based on what I observe at that point I would make my decision as to what to do next.

hth,
al

[Eddie]

I also like to add, "The Poor Mans" red color enhancer to my mix for ....paprika!

Other natural components that I use:

shrimp
salmon
carrots

Eddie

[vss]

Based on my own limited experience, the RGD is very red, and the color does not fade.

When she came at 3.5'', it's almost pale white, but as she grows and matures, the red color becomes more and more intense. I have only fed her with NatuRose for a couple of weeks when she was young, and then I stopped it because the red color that the Naturose gives is not the way I want. Afterwards I just fed her with meat mix with shrimp and tetrabits, and the red color is well-developed. In the recent month, I stopped all kinds of food for red color enhancing, like shrimp&tetrabit, and only fed my fish with beef/tuna/salmon mix and blood worms, because I want to see if her face color can return from yellow to white if I don't feed her with red. The white face hasn't come back yet so far, but the red color on the body is well maintained.

Red color is sex linked, and usually female show more red than male (I feel lucky as I got a female RGD :)). Also I heard albino red need a lot of color enhancer to keep the red color. Quality brown-based red fish like rose red and San Merah also have very intense red color, but again it depends on the gender, and it is kind of dark.

HTH :)

-Xiaofei

[rickztahone]

Hehe. I fed my Red Turqs Spectra A+ which is high in krill. They turned bright orange. I thought it was kinda cool. But my wife hated that shade of orange, so I stopped feeding and they're back to normal. :p

Tim

that's NLS right? it's just that thera A+ with garlic or something? or is it another food entirely?

[Rod]

I stopped all kinds of food for red color enhancing, like shrimp&tetrabit, and only fed my fish with beef/tuna/salmon mix and blood worms, because I want to see if her face color can return from yellow to white if I don't feed her with red. The white face hasn't come back yet so far, but the red color on the body is well maintained.

-Xiaofei

Hi Xiaofei, Make sure you remember to post an update picture of your red girl. She is a beauty. :D

Rod

[brewmaster15]

Based on my own limited experience, the RGD is very red, and the color does not fade.

When she came at 3.5'', it's almost pale white, but as she grows and matures, the red color becomes more and more intense. I have only fed her with NatuRose for a couple of weeks when she was young, and then I stopped it because the red color that the Naturose gives is not the way I want. Afterwards I just fed her with meat mix with shrimp and tetrabits, and the red color is well-developed. In the recent month, I stopped all kinds of food for red color enhancing, like shrimp&tetrabit, and only fed my fish with beef/tuna/salmon mix and blood worms, because I want to see if her face color can return from yellow to white if I don't feed her with red. The white face hasn't come back yet so far, but the red color on the body is well maintained.

Red color is sex linked, and usually female show more red than male (I feel lucky as I got a female RGD :)). Also I heard albino red need a lot of color enhancer to keep the red color. Quality brown-based red fish like rose red and San Merah also have very intense red color, but again it depends on the gender, and it is kind of dark.

HTH :)

-Xiaofei
-Xiaofei,
If you want to really stop feeding her reds....you have to consider that salmon a source..Its a strong source of pigments and depending whether its wild or farm raised...may actually have carophyll pink in it.... Also watch out for spirulina..though its a green algae..its a good source of orange pigments.

hth,
al

[vss]

-Xiaofei,
If you want to really stop feeding her reds....you have to consider that salmon a source..Its a strong source of pigments and depending whether its wild or farm raised...may actually have carophyll pink in it.... Also watch out for spirulina..though its a green algae..its a good source of orange pigments.

hth,
al


Thanks for reminding me that Al! :)I'll take the salmon out of my recipe. Btw, salmon is not ornamental fish, why it's fed with carophyll pink? is it good for the growth and health of this type of fish? or just to make the meat look nicer?

[Ed13]

Thanks for reminding me that Al! :)I'll take the salmon out of my recipe. Btw, salmon is not ornamental fish, why it's fed with carophyll pink? is it good for the growth and health of this type of fish? or just to make the meat look nicer?
Primarily to make the meat look nicer;). Gray/pale salmon meat is less appealing than the pink/orangish of wild caught and farm raised ones lack that color.
I doubt it adds any other benefits.

If I remember corectly isn't asthaxantin derived from spirulina through a process Al?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ed,
Not Spirulina but another algae..a marine one..Haematococcus microalgae:)

-al

[joanr]

Jason, my Super Flamingo from Kenny stays red but shows different degrees of redness throughout the day. I feed prime reef and ON flake, Angelflake and live/frozen foods. I think with such a variety a SF would be a good choice, but of course their faces are whitish, not a solid red fish. But the red part is blazzing red!

[Ed13]

Hi Ed,
Not Spirulina but another algae..a marine one..Haematococcus microalgae:)

-al

At least I got one part right, huh?!:D

[vss]

Hi Xiaofei, Make sure you remember to post an update picture of your red girl. She is a beauty. :D

Rod


Sorry I missed your post Rod...Sure I'll take some shots on her once I'm done with my midterms;)

-Xiaofei:)