Oh my, another newbie!

[Bela]

I've decided to face my fear and learn to keep discus. Have been keeping Africans and other S. Americans for years, with good success (and plenty of failures!). Here's the plan:

SETUP:
70G Oceanic Tech, on a stock Tech stand.
Wet/dry trickle in a 20 G sump (I like the extra water in the system)
18W UV sterilizer.
Thinking about adding some Chemi-Pure to the trickle stack.
Coralife 2x96W compact (royal blue for dawn/dusk, 6700k for daytime) w/ Current USA white moon LED strip. I usually give them daylight for 2 hours in the morning, and another 5 or 6 in the afternoon/evening.

I'd been wanting to set up a planted tank but after reading many posts here over the past weeks have decided to be grown up about it and learn to keep the fish first. Maybe I'll put some philodendron above the tank and have the roots trail into the water - might look nice with a piece of bogwood.

STOCK:
8 juvies (of the, oh, adolescent size? say 2-3 inch?) Thought I would start with 8 as this would probably yield 6-7 (with luck and if the discus gods smile on me and I practice good husbandry!).
Have not concluded on a strain (my girlfriend votes for something blue - and that carries a lot of weight).
Some tetras - in fact they'll be the initial inhabitants to get it cycled. A shoal of 10 - 20. I like the way Bloodfins act.


WATER:
I live in NYC and the water here is ph 6.8 - 6.9 from the tap - stable after 24 hours.
GH and KH both in the 0 - 1 degree range.
Nitrite 0 detected, Nitrate 0.1 - 0.2 mg/liter (from NYC official parameters in 2008 test).
Given these parameters I don't believe I need to use additives (am I wrong?), though I am concerned about the lack of buffering capacity with little/no hardness.
I like the look of Kent Blackwater - kind of a moody tinge, any thoughts?
I've used Kent AF Cichlid Essential with my Africans and would probably use Kent Discus Essential (I'm a bit loyal to their products). Any experience or thoughts with this additive or water treatment?
One specific question is what dechlorinator people prefer. I notice that using Stress Coat (or Big Al's equivalent) raises the ph for me by about 1/2 a step to 7.0 - 7.5.
Water changes: Given my work schedule I plan to do 40 - 50% 3 times/week, using aged water (48+hrs, however long since the last change).


So . . . PLEASE throw darts at my scheme! Bring it on.
This is fun project for me and I'm looking forward to it.

Many thanks in advance. - KW

[akumastew]

1 ppm of Nitrite would be bad.

[Bela]

1 ppm of Nitrite would be bad.

Thanks, I had copied the MAX permitted by NYC rather than the actual. Edited accordingly. - KW

[akumastew]

Using the 10g/ discus general rule. Some people have differing opinions on this rule. You can keep more Discus per gallon, if you can keep your water at good levels.

8 Discus would require ~80 gallon volume.

Which leaves 10 gallons or the other fish.

1" of fish per gallon. This would allow you 10 x 1" fish to make up the rest.

As for the lack of buffering in your water, you do run a risk of a pH crash.

Which would be bad.

I am not sure on what method of re-adding kH to your water would be, but from reading on these forums, it seems important that you can maintain the same conditions from water change to water change.

I am a novice myself, but so far I have had no issues keeping water parameters the same from change to change.

I do check the main tank and water I am going to add before adding it, to make sure that they are similar.

[Larry Bugg]

Don't give up entirely on the plants. For now use pots and driftwood. On the driftwood attach something like anubias or java fern. I use superglue to attach but others also use fishing line or thread. In the pots you have a lot of choices but swords or crypts make excellent choices. Some people use a soil substrate capped with sand or gravel. I just use the same substrates that I have in my planted tanks and put a root tab in the substrate for ferts.

[frenchie100]

Sounds like a good plan so far, just needs to be fine tuned ;)!

Here are my opinions:

-I go by the 10 per fish rule and if you get eight 2-3inchers you should end up with 8 adults, no reason to lose any along the way. This is important with juvies because of the heavy feeding.

-Make sure you look at the thread called "what not to buy" to make sure you are getting good stock to begin with. That is of extreme importance when first starting off. You are bound to make mistakes but if you have good quality healthy fish to begin with they will be a lot more forgiving!

-Your GH and KH are a concern for sure: GH needs to be higher so your juvies can grow, and KH needs to be higher ( more than 3) to prevent sudden shifts in pH. I see that you are going to be aging your water so then you can add minerals into the barrels.

- Keep in mind that some tetras do not do well in 86F water that juvies need, so make sure if you are going to go that route that you know you are getting compatible ones.

-I would recommend doing a fishless cycle to prevent the introduction of any disease.

- If you would like to use a UV sterilizer, I would get a higher wattage ( 25W or 36W).

Good luck, this is an exciting adventure you are embarking on! Might get overwhelming at times but there is plenty of people to help here!

Hope that helps!

Julie

[Don Trinko]

Read a lot first.
Be prepaired for a lot of water changes(WC). There is a variety of opinions abought WC but it is neccisary. What will keep your other ciclids happy will give you sick discus.
It is not hard to keep discus but they do have certain REQUIRMENTS. these requirments are not optional.
Some of the requirments are; clean water, warm temperature, good food, etc.
Don T.

[Peachtree Discus]

Read a lot first...

that's worth saying twice

[mkv]

I personally don't like to mess around the chemistry of the water with additives. You will spend endless hours working on keeping it stable. For a display tank it's best left alone. If you goal is breeding then is a different ball game. Just my 2 cents

[exv152]

Some tetras - in fact they'll be the initial inhabitants to get it cycled. A shoal of 10 - 20. I like the way Bloodfins act.

Like akumastew said, too crowded for a 70 gallon.



-GH and KH both in the 0 - 1 degree range.

This is too low, KH at that level will leave you suceptible to a pH crash. There are products to fix this.



I've used Kent AF Cichlid Essential with my Africans and would probably use Kent Discus Essential (I'm a bit loyal to their products). Any experience or thoughts with this additive or water treatment?

I personally prefer Seachem products because they provide a full analysis of the elements and their quantities, and others like Kent don’t. At least last time I checked.

[Eddie]

My only advice, take it from those with experience. You can click on any members name and see all the posts they've started. Very valuable tool when it comes to taking advice!

All the best of luck with your tank!


Eddie

[Bela]

Thanks everyone, this is all very helpful. I've answered my question about dechlorinators, after searching the site here seems to be a consensus that Seachem Prime is the preference (though pricey!). A lot of the equipment I listed is from prior setups, so it sort of is what it is (i.e., the UV won't be gettin any stronger!).

For my low KH, would people recommend adding something like Kent R/O to bring it up in the 10 range? What other products to people here prefer? And yes, 20 tetras will be a big bioload on this 70G, even with a 20G sump. Rather have some excess water capacity.

Anyway, I thank you all and will be back! - KW

[Eddie]

As far as your KH, you can simply add crushed coral or baking soda. You'll have to mess around with right amount. A bag of coral in your sump should do the trick though.

Take care,

Eddie

[joanr]

One other thing I'll add, don't run the UV while cycling the tank, wait till you get a good build up of bacteria.
Like Eddie said, the crushed coral is great for controlling PH crash and boosts the KH, you can just add it to your holding tank in a small media bag, last a real long time.

[frenchie100]

I personally don't like to mess around the chemistry of the water with additives. You will spend endless hours working on keeping it stable. For a display tank it's best left alone. If you goal is breeding then is a different ball game. Just my 2 cents

This is usually a good rule to go by, but not in this case. In this case the OP has GH and KH values that are way too low to a point that it will be dangerous for his future fish ( read my above post for a clarification).

Julie :)

[akumastew]

From the water chemistry description, it is almost like he has RO pumped straight to his house.

And if you look up all my early threads, you will see there are plaenty of questions that I asked that will help you learn from my experience.

[Eddie]

I have less than 1 KH and my PH stays totally stable, every day....but thats because I change 100% every day. ;)

[Bela]

Good advice on the coral. I'm used to keeping Africans and working with additives to keep hardness way up, but like the idea of going simple, and a bag in the sump should do just fine. I suppose I ought to add one in my aging barrel too. I'm nervous about no buffering and don't want the fish to be hurt in a crash.

Yeah, NYC water is soo soft the knowledgable and honest LFS owners will tell you straight out to not waste $$ on an r/o filter. But cross the river to NJ and the water is rock hard. NYC takes its tap from 2 watersheds 100 miles or so north of the city in the Catskills.

Good point on the UV, hadn't considered it. I ran this on another tank in past but it was up and cycled by the time I put it on. Think I'm going to cycle fishless this time to avoid risk of infecting the tank with anything. Have done this before with straight ammonia from the grocery and somehow it always kind of blows my mind that it works!

Akuma - I'll look at your earlier threads.I'm all about learning from other's experience (now if I could get my kids to do the same!). - KW

[BAM]

Bela,

I have had discus for close to 2 years now, in a 70 gallon planted tank. I had some failures early, but I have had the current disus for a year now and all is well. My problems went away when I went to RO water instead of well water. I do not know why, but it worked. I use Kent RO Right to add minerals back to the RO water, 2 teaspoons per 20 gallons. along with 0.25 teaspoon of baking soda and age it at least 24 hours. I have found Kent's RO Right a much better product to use than "Equilibrium". Eight discus is too many in a 70 gallon tank. Six or 7 tops will do it.

My discus came from "Discus Madness". Google it. I have been very pleased with them. When starting out, I found I real value to being able to go and see and talk to the the owner. Discus Madness is located in NJ close to Newark Airport, so it is an easy drive from NYC. I live in south Jersey now and will drive 2.5 hours each way gladly to see and pick out what I want.

Good luck.
BAM

[exv152]

I would go with the crushed coral to raise the KH, but stay away from baking soda, its effects are short lived, and in fact, can cause problems if you use a pinch too much. Crushed coral will raise the KH slowly and naturally.

[Bela]

My discus came from "Discus Madness". I have been very pleased with them.

I'm really glad you mentioned this, and great to know they're a quality source. I found their site a month or two ago and have been ogling their fish ever since. Since they're relatively close, and I'm not finding any discus specialists in NYC proper (seems hard to believe!), I'd been planning a drive out there to see their stock.

Thanks!

[fishorama]

I have low KH too, usually 2-3 but it has dropped to 1 a few times. My pH a lot dropped too because, unlike Eddie ;), I only change 30-60% daily. I now have crushed coral in the filter & add ~1/2 teaspoon baking soda to the unaged tap.

[Bela]

Can I ask for more advice on boosing kh and gh in my water? My water out of tap runs below 2 degrees kh and gh. I've added crushed coral to the sump as suggested here (about 1-1/2 cups in a media bag) and see no measurable increase in water hardness. Still running 2 degrees for both kh and gh. Note that I'm into day 3 of a fishless cycle on the tank, don't know if the ammonia level would affect this or not (abt 4 ppm), I'm not much of a chemist.

But, if I'm doing 40 - 50% water changes every 2 or 3 days, and can't raise hardness above 2 degrees in the past 3 days with coral, how can I give my fish sufficient hardness? I'll constantly be adding low mineral water. I intend to age water, and would put a bag of coral in the aging barrel, as well as keep a bag in the sump. And I like the idea of not turning to additives. but maybe I don't have a choice? Any thoughts? Thanks again, KW

p.s. - where do people find decent aging barrels? I've no desire to keep something that looks like a garbage can in the corner of my bedroom!

[Eddie]

Can I ask for more advice on boosing kh and gh in my water? My water out of tap runs below 2 degrees kh and gh. I've added crushed coral to the sump as suggested here (about 1-1/2 cups in a media bag) and see no measurable increase in water hardness. Still running 2 degrees for both kh and gh. Note that I'm into day 3 of a fishless cycle on the tank, don't know if the ammonia level would affect this or not (abt 4 ppm), I'm not much of a chemist.

But, if I'm doing 40 - 50% water changes every 2 or 3 days, and can't raise hardness above 2 degrees in the past 3 days with coral, how can I give my fish sufficient hardness? I'll constantly be adding low mineral water. I intend to age water, and would put a bag of coral in the aging barrel, as well as keep a bag in the sump. And I like the idea of not turning to additives. but maybe I don't have a choice? Any thoughts? Thanks again, KW

p.s. - where do people find decent aging barrels? I've no desire to keep something that looks like a garbage can in the corner of my bedroom!

Hey there Bela, I think you will be fine aging and changing water every 2-3 days with 2 degrees KH. The crushed coral will help buffer your PH. Doing regular water changes will keep your PH stable. Nitrification in itself will generally reduce KH but you will be fine IMO. Having coral in the sump and aging barrel will be fine.

While your cycling the tank, you are not doing water changes right? Just keep a bag of coral in the sump and let her run.

Aging barrels can be found on craiglist or simply rubbermaid trashcans work fine. Really depends on how much water you will be aging.

Take care,

Eddie

[Disgirl]

You can put a tablecloth and a piece of round or square thin wood on top to make a table out of your wc barrel! Was suggested to me months ago by someone here.
Barb :D

[Bela]

Thanks both. Right, no h2o changes while cycling, just coral in da sump! I love the idea of turning the barrel into a table. That fits my bachelor lifestyle oh so well.

This discus adventure is turning into a hell of a learning experience. Much more interesting than work.

later - bela