Care of gravel in carpeted aquascape?

[willbldrco]

Hi all,

I've somewhat successfully run a 55g dutch-style planted tank for a few years now and decided to upgrade to a 90g tank planted in the carpeted iwagumi style. Eventually, I'd love to have some discus so that the end result is similar in style to this famous Amano design:

http://www.myfishtank.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/amanotank.jpg

So here is a snap of my old stem-heavy 55g:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2510/4109922443_3607ffc753_o.jpg

And here's my new 90g with the same plants (to help get the tank cycled):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2551/4110791832_229b44e517_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2506/4110027735_cba002e63b_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2585/4110027657_11115643fe_o.jpg

Using my old plants to help cycle the new tank, I've run my new 90g for a few weeks. The water parameters have stabilized near what they were in my 55g. Everything was fine until last week:


Monday: Cherry shrimp became lethargic (weren't doing their usual cleaning)
Tues: One of my 4 ottos started randomly darting around the tank every now and then
Weds: Small islands of floating algae started to form on the water's surface (about the size 1/2 across) and algae started appearing on the glass of the aquarium (much more than the usual little bit I see)
Thurs: 2 cherry shrimp die; the otto from above very sick
Fri: I notice tiny (1/4" long) white worms swirling around my tank when the substrate is disturbed. When the works settle, they burrow into the substrate. From web searches, I believe these are planaria which are harmless to fish, but are an indication of too much uneaten food in the substrate from lack of vacuuming.
Sat: Sick otto dies, last two cherry shrimp die


Today: 3 remaining ottos seems health and happy. All other fish have been fine all along (SAEs, rummy nose tetras). Algae is slowed since I cut the light from 2.8w/g to 1.44W/g, but it is still growing much faster than when everything was in the 55g. Also, pearling and plant growth is happening at reduced levels.

Note: While algae is growing on the glass and water surface (in 1/2" floating islands), nothing is growing on my plants. My plants seem to be fine (pearling, growing, filling in to form lush bunches, etc). Small amounts of algae appear on the oldest plant leaves.

I have a similar environment for this 90g as I had on my 55g:

Weekly water change (50%)
CO2 injection tuned with bubble checker (showing green)
Ferts to NO3 at 10ppm and PO4 at .5ppm with plantex for traces using the EI method
2mo. CF lights at 1.44W/g (turned down from orig of 2.9W/g)


There differences between the 55g and 90g are:

Substrate went from 1.5-3" of typical variety aquarium gravel to 1-7" Eco Complete black (and that's been greatly sloped to provide for the rolling carpeted hills of the iwagumi style I'm looking for)
I no longer vacuum the substrate as I won't be able to do that once I have it carpeted
My KH has declined from about 10-11 degrees to 3-4 degrees since I've included about 1/2 RO water with my water changes now (in preparation for discus)
I have yet to reconnect my UV sterilizer to the 90g tank


Can you help me with my planned fixes and questions by lending your expert advice? :D
To help with the algae, I think I'll reconnect my UV sterilizer
To get rid of the planaria I should cut back on feeding and vacuum the substrate, but how will I be able to continue vacuuming that once I have a carpeted substrate? Note: I will be getting rid of my existing plants and replacing them with a carpeting variety (as in the first picture above, e.g, Glossostigma sp.).
I think I should increase the light back to 2.8w/g just to get the nitrogen system running at a healthy level.

Any advice you could provide would be greatly appreciated!
Regards,

Will

[Sharkbait]

Hi Will,

The battle with algae is a constant one. The goal is to find the balance between light, ferts, and 'consistent' C02 circulation. You will find that from switching to a larger tank, you'll have to be patient and find the difference in your routine. Don't worry, from the looks of your skills, you'll be fine in no time.

The height difference of each tank will be a difference in your routine. Since the heights are different, the light will need to be stronger to reach the gravel of the 90gallon. At 2.8 watts per gallon, you will have a tough time getting a carpeting plant like Glosso to act the way you want. It will most likely stretch vertically rather then stay low and spread. You will need more light. This explains your reduced plant growth.

With more light, you will need more ferts. If you're doing EI method, it's better to overdose a bit (this will not effect your algae growth because you reset every week).

You may want to invest in some bottom feeders so you don't have to worry so much about vacumming the substrate. Cories are a favourite among discus keepers because most are fine with the heat. For plants, I'd even suggest kuhli loaches. Bigger fish will tear up some of the carpet and it's a pain to replant. I gave up on glosso because my kribs kept picking at it and turned it into a home.

[willbldrco]

Thanks so much for your help!


Hi Will,
The height difference of each tank will be a difference in your routine. Since the heights are different, the light will need to be stronger to reach the gravel of the 90gallon. At 2.8 watts per gallon, you will have a tough time getting a carpeting plant like Glosso to act the way you want. It will most likely stretch vertically rather then stay low and spread. You will need more light. This explains your reduced plant growth.


Ah, looks like I'll be shopping for a new light fixture then. ;) Any suggestions on a bright fixture that does not have/need fans? This tank is near my TV so a quiet tank it good for movie viewing, etc.



You may want to invest in some bottom feeders so you don't have to worry so much about vacumming the substrate. Cories are a favourite among discus keepers because most are fine with the heat. For plants, I'd even suggest kuhli loaches. Bigger fish will tear up some of the carpet and it's a pain to replant. I gave up on glosso because my kribs kept picking at it and turned it into a home.

This may sound like a dumb question, but I really have no idea so I have to ask. :p In a fully carpeted tank, how do bottom feeders, umm, get to the bottom? If I achieve my goal, there would be a thick carpet of tiny plants over the substrate which would allow food to fall through, but prevent fish from getting down there to get it. ?? This seems like it would be problematic too for my planaria issue since I won't be able to vacuum through the carpet - those little worms would be in heaven. :angel:

Thanks again for your advice! :)

Will

[Sharkbait]

Ah, looks like I'll be shopping for a new light fixture then. ;) Any suggestions on a bright fixture that does not have/need fans? This tank is near my TV so a quiet tank it good for movie viewing, etc.

That's a toughy. Normally brighter lights produce more heat, which in turn require cooling fans of some sort. I've got some T5HO lights that don't have a fan - GLO fixture 2x54w. However, it wasn't enough, so I got a 4x65w Coralife Power Compact. I live out near a forest in the peace and quiet and the only thing you can hear are my tank and fridge. Trust me, I wasn't too ecstatic about the fan noise. There are computer fans you can find that will reduce the noise...that's the best I've found. Just turn up the TV volume ;)



This may sound like a dumb question, but I really have no idea so I have to ask. :p In a fully carpeted tank, how do bottom feeders, umm, get to the bottom?

As a teacher, no question is a dumb question...just the one not asked :)

I have 3 clown loaches as bottom feeders in my tank. I dunno how they do it, but they have a funny looking mouth that will get around anything. Cories have a similar mouth. I could be completely wrong about this, but as long as they get to it, it really doesn't matter! Kuhli loaches will burrow and go underneath the plants into the substrate (depending how coarse it is).

If your carpet is compact enough and not loose, it will be easier for all fish to get to the food.

If this is a huge worry for you, I've seen some hobbyists use a feeding net that will limit wasted food.

[TankWatcher]

I have loved that famous Amano design since I first saw it. Is that the one by Jeff Senske?

Your tanks are pretty impressive too. Very nice looking.

Will your carpet be glosso or HC? To vacuum, just keep the vac low & close to the carpet & swirl it around. You can add a little extra swirling action with your other hand. Debris should start to lift & then you can suck them up. You could even "gently" rest the gravel vac end onto the carpet, but don't dig in.

I love sterbai cories, but I wouldn't add them to your tank until the carpet is well established. I tried doing a HC carpet myself, but the cories were already in the tank. Because the roots had not yet taken hold in the substrate, the cories continually uprooted my HC as they nosed around in the plants. I think if you wait until your carpet is well established, this won't be an issue and I think you will need the corries to help clean up the tank floor.

Another thing to consider is the maintenance of keeping the glosso or HC low. Once you solve your light issue, it won't become leggy or grow upwards so much - but you will still need to thin it out. I used to be part of a planted tank forum and the guys there told me that periodically you need to uproot the glosso or HC, trim it from the bottom and replant the stems. Sounds like a lot of work to me. I was going to trim from the top & scoop up the cutting with a net - but as my carpet was a lost cause I never got to test whether that would work. The people helping me at the time said it was better to pull it out & replant instead - but I really hope that is not true, as one day I will try again but I am far too lazy for that LOL



Monday: Cherry shrimp became lethargic (weren't doing their usual cleaning)
Tues: One of my 4 ottos started randomly darting around the tank every now and then
Thurs: 2 cherry shrimp die; the otto from above very sick
Fri: I notice tiny (1/4" long) white worms swirling around my tank when the substrate is disturbed. When the works settle, they burrow into the substrate. From web searches, I believe these are planaria which are harmless to fish, but are an indication of too much uneaten food in the substrate from lack of vacuuming.
Sat: Sick otto dies, last two cherry shrimp die

Are you using ADA Aquasoil? Aquasoil leaches ammonia for the first few weeks, so it's best not to add aquatic life during that time. ADA will cycle a tank for you, without having to add additional ammonia source (I found this out when I used ADA aquasoil in my 7ft tank). I think you said you’re using eco complete though, so that's probably not the issue here.

Can't wait to see pictures of your tank as it progresses.

[willbldrco]

I have loved that famous Amano design since I first saw it. Is that the one by Jeff Senske?

I don't think so. I've seen this picture all over the web and on several sites the photo credit is given to Amano himself, so I think this is his tank.


I love sterbai cories, but I wouldn't add them to your tank until the carpet is well established. I tried doing a HC carpet myself, but the cories were already in the tank. Because the roots had not yet taken hold in the substrate, the cories continually uprooted my HC as they nosed around in the plants. I think if you wait until your carpet is well established, this won't be an issue and I think you will need the corries to help clean up the tank floor.

That's a great tip; thanks!!


Another thing to consider is the maintenance of keeping the glosso or HC low. Once you solve your light issue, it won't become leggy or grow upwards so much - but you will still need to thin it out. I used to be part of a planted tank forum and the guys there told me that periodically you need to uproot the glosso or HC, trim it from the bottom and replant the stems. Sounds like a lot of work to me. I was going to trim from the top & scoop up the cutting with a net - but as my carpet was a lost cause I never got to test whether that would work. The people helping me at the time said it was better to pull it out & replant instead - but I really hope that is not true, as one day I will try again but I am far too lazy for that LOL

Oh, I hear you!! Part of wanting to go with an iwagumi style was a hope that by having a limited species of plants (1 or 2), pruning would be less of a chore. I'm wondering if that is a correct assumption. If you must rip out, prune, and then replant the growing tips of a carpet plant, well, that sounds like a nightmare - even if you only have to do it once a month.

Can anyone with an established carpeted tank offer a summery of your pruning methodology?
Regards,

Will

[willbldrco]

Hi Will,
The battle with algae is a constant one. The goal is to find the balance between light, ferts, and 'consistent' C02 circulation. You will find that from switching to a larger tank, you'll have to be patient and find the difference in your routine. Don't worry, from the looks of your skills, you'll be fine in no time.

Thanks for the reassurance! :) I adjusted my tap/RO mixture in my aging drum and it seems to have helped somehow with the algae. It used to be 90%RO and 10%tap (I have hard rocky mountain water), but now it's 50/50. I think my KH was way too low (closer to 2-3 degrees) and is now about 4-5 degrees. Algae growth on the sides of the tank is greatly reduced despite the fact that I brought my light back up to 2.8W/g. That floating algae stuff is almost totally gone!



The height difference of each tank will be a difference in your routine. Since the heights are different, the light will need to be stronger to reach the gravel of the 90gallon. At 2.8 watts per gallon, you will have a tough time getting a carpeting plant like Glosso to act the way you want. It will most likely stretch vertically rather then stay low and spread. You will need more light. This explains your reduced plant growth.

Oh yeah. I didn't think of that. The new tank is about 4" taller than the old tank. Hmmm... Yeah, time for more light!



With more light, you will need more ferts. If you're doing EI method, it's better to overdose a bit (this will not effect your algae growth because you reset every week).

My plants are growing well (even with my other issues) so my main battle is algae prevention. Would over dosing help with that? I shoot for post-water change ferts to be at NO3=10ppm and PO4=.5ppm. Frankly I have no idea how to dose Plantx for traces. I just dump in a gram for every 35g of water I change (as recommended by the person who sold me the ferts). Potassium is kinda guess work too since some gets added with the major ferts.


You may want to invest in some bottom feeders so you don't have to worry so much about vacumming the substrate. Cories are a favourite among discus keepers because most are fine with the heat. For plants, I'd even suggest kuhli loaches. Bigger fish will tear up some of the carpet and it's a pain to replant. I gave up on glosso because my kribs kept picking at it and turned it into a home.

Robyn suggested Cories too. I'll have to try them out. Do you know of a web resource that tells you fish ratios to get for a 90g discus tank (e.g, how many clean up crew fish to have per discus in a 90g)?

Thanks for your advice; I really appreciate it! :)

Will

[TankWatcher]

I don't think so. I've seen this picture all over the web and on several sites the photo credit is given to Amano himself, so I think this is his tank.Yeah, I've seen that beautiful tank linked in several places on the web. I only asked because Jeff Senske represents ADA in the USA, which of course is Amano's company. Jeff does a lot of tanks to demonstrate the ADA products. I remember there was a beautiful planted tank he did for a aquascape comp & I got confused & thought it was the one you linked. But now I think on it, you are right. It wasn't the one you linked at all. I'll see if I can find the link to that one.

[TankWatcher]

Hi again

Here is a link to the ADA USA site. Go to galleries and have a look at the beautiful plant tanks http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/

This is another one of Jeff's. http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2006.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=3&id=127
I based my tank on this one, although it ended up nothing like it really, as I don't have his talent. I couldn't get all the same plants, but I liked that none of them are stem plants that need pulling / trimming / replanting. In other cases, like the chain swords, I decided I'd prefer crypts.

I hope the glosso doesn't need pulling & replanting. Someone here is sure to be able to say. The guys who where helping me at the time were plant perfectionists. The fish, well fish weren't their main focus - it was all about the plants. I hope trimming from the top will be the go. The only other problem there, is trimming in the tank means you will have all the bits of glosso floating around that you will need to net.

[theblondskeleton]

Hey!

I may be of assistance, here. My carpet is actually Hemianthus Callatrichoides 'cuba' not Glosso - but HC is actually much smaller and (I believe) more challenging to maintain.

Both HC and Glosso are considered stem plants. Thus, trimming them kind of falls into the same category. I simply trim the tops of my HC - mowing it like a lawn. It has been maintained over 6 months so far with no major issues. I do vacuum the carpet weekly to keep the detritus from going anaerobic - flow is very limited where the growth is dense and cyano can be an issue sometimes.

I can see the logic in uprooting and trimming from the bottom - as that is what some do with the larger stemmies as well. However, I also know how much work it is to plant a simple foreground of HC in a 90 gallon - not even 1/3 of the tank - let alone an entire iwagumi style lawn! It would be insane to attempt it even on a monthly basis.

My carpet has developed - over the course of months - about 1/4" of less dense growth near the roots, but it is hardly noticeable. I'm going to continue trimming from the tops. Uprooting means reestablishing the entire lawn every month, and mine took longer than that to grow in the first time.

That's the story with HC. Glosso will likely be easier to maintain due to it's larger size.

As far as lights - think not in terms of WPG. For a tank as deep as a 90G, it's more a question of what kind of light. I had 260W of PC lights over my tank and pathetic growth. I switched to half that with T5HO and got HC to lay down for me. T5HO with good individual reflectors is what will get you good carpet growth - unless you prefer Metal Halide. I would avoid PC's with a deep tank.

[exv152]

Can you help me with my planned fixes and questions by lending your expert advice? :D
To help with the algae, I think I'll reconnect my UV sterilizer
To get rid of the planaria I should cut back on feeding and vacuum the substrate, but how will I be able to continue vacuuming that once I have a carpeted substrate? Note: I will be getting rid of my existing plants and replacing them with a carpeting variety (as in the first picture above, e.g, Glossostigma sp.).
I think I should increase the light back to 2.8w/g just to get the nitrogen system running at a healthy level.


I may be repeating what others are saying here, but I would suggest testing the water parameters to be 100% sure of what you're dealing with. I'm sure you may have some risidual ammonia or nitrite in there, which would explain the shrimp and otto dying.

The planaria is very common in my experiences setting up new tanks, and usually tend to go away fairly quickly (couple of weeks).

As for the algae, either not enough or inconsistent levels of CO2 usually lend to algae growth.

Later, when you've planted the glosso, you can simply vacuum the substrate by holding the python tube pressed into the glosso gently, or you can run your fingers through the glosso to bring up any debris while vacuuming just above the glosso.

Just my 2 cents.

PS I must say though, very nice planted tanks!

[TankWatcher]

Both HC and Glosso are considered stem plants. Thus, trimming them kind of falls into the same category. I simply trim the tops of my HC - mowing it like a lawn. It has been maintained over 6 months so far with no major issues. That's great to know, cause you're right, HC is an absolute pain in the butt to plant in the first place. So you wouldn't want to do it twice, though that's what the pple in my previous planted tank forum gang did.

I wouldn't have that much spare time on my hands & I was planting up a 7ft tank.

[theblondskeleton]

By the way - great looking dutch setup! 55's are notoriously difficult to get depth out of!

And Tankwatcher - Hear, hear on the bits of glosso floating about. I turn off my filter when I trim, and scoop the floating bits from the surface with a net - and STILL have a heck of a time getting it all out. I trim every other week, as well.

[TankWatcher]

Whilst still a pain, netting it out is a little easier if you turn off filters & air bubbles whilst doing it. I used to have a similar problem when I used riccia - always little bits floating after a hair cut.

[TankWatcher]

Another "cheating" foreground plant is wisteria. You can actually train it to grow horizontally, instead of vertically. The beautiful HC and glosso carpets are nicer, but wisteria is easier and great for sucking up nitrate.

[willbldrco]

Another "cheating" foreground plant is wisteria. You can actually train it to grow horizontally, instead of vertically. The beautiful HC and glosso carpets are nicer, but wisteria is easier and great for sucking up nitrate.

Indeed! While it's not what I want in the end, it's what I'm using now at the "nose" end of my new 90g (see pic below). Looks like a lawn of crabgrass tho. ;)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2551/4110791832_229b44e517_o.jpg

And for some reason it does grow horizontally in this tank. In my 55g it grew straight up with occasional shoots.


By the way - great looking dutch setup! 55's are notoriously difficult to get depth out of!

Thanks! That was taken on one of it's good days. ;)


I simply trim the tops of my HC - mowing it like a lawn. It has been maintained over 6 months so far with no major issues.
[...]
My carpet has developed - over the course of months - about 1/4" of less dense growth near the roots, but it is hardly noticeable.

That is really good to know! Interesting about how 1/4" of the bottom is less sparse. I wonder if that sparseness grows over time. It seems like with the carpet blocking light from above, the growth at the base of the plants would be light-starved. I'm really interested in how your HC carpet will progress as you keep up with your top-trimming over the months...


The planaria is very common in my experiences setting up new tanks, and usually tend to go away fairly quickly (couple of weeks).

As for the algae, either not enough or inconsistent levels of CO2 usually lend to algae growth.

PS I must say though, very nice planted tanks!

Thanks!! :)

Ah, ok, I was wondering where the heck those planaria came from. I've not been feeding any more than when I had everything in the 55g. But I've not been vacuuming the substrate like I had been doing in my old tank either. I hope it's not the lack of substrate vacuuming because :balloon:I want that lawn!:balloon: :)

Speaking of feeding, I'm wondering if that is why the shrimp died: The shrimp where new along with the 90g (didn't have any shrimp in the 55g) and I just assumed they would "eat stuff" they found in the tank like ottos. Should I have fed them something shrimp-specific? They seemed to LOVE the tank for a couple weeks (got sooooper red and where active), but then they sorta disappeared into the shadows - into the folds of bushy plants, hidden from view. After another week, they died over a period of a week. I have a video of a shrimp dying that I should upload and post in case it could help in diagnosing the problem.

Very frustrating.

The otto might have died from old age. I've had him for about 3 years. The other three ottos seem healthy and are very actively running around the tank scrubbing algae off everything. :)

Thanks everyone for all the great info!

Will