common knowledge?

[rickztahone]

I was re-reading Mr. Soh's second book today and i came across something that i asked myself if most on here (mainly newer members) knew about it. it has to do with protein in the discus diet. Juvenile's need high protein 50-60% but after that juvenile stage is over they do not need such high levels of protein. Adults need more carbohydrates and too much protein can have a negative impact on them. so my question would be: Does everyone follow this procedure? does everyone know to switch their discus' diet after they have passed their juvenile stage? I'm aware that although Mr. Soh is well respected some might say that that is only his perspective but it does make sense to me. if anyone does not agree this would be the place to say it for discussion. again, this thread is more to make everyone aware that such information is out there in regards to protein content.

[tcyiu]

Aren't discus are carnivores?

Tim

[rickztahone]

Aren't discus are carnivores?

Tim

point being?

[Double Up]

I just try to keep my discus' diet balanced. Luckily they will eat anything. I alternate pemysis shrimp, hikari forzen bws, tetra color bits, tetra pro flakes, beefheart, hikari discus gold sinking pellets.

[William Palumbo]

I try to keep my Discus diet varied as well. Usually when the fish are reaching adults and start to pair off, they are not being fed as many times as the smaller Discus. My pairs most times get fed only twice a day. So the protien may be there, it's just not being fed to them as much because of the lesser number of feedings. I am not so sure anyone really knows what the ideal Discus diet is...Bill

[rickztahone]

I try to keep my Discus diet varied as well. Usually when the fish are reaching adults and start to pair off, they are not being fed as many times as the smaller Discus. My pairs most times get fed only twice a day. So the protien may be there, it's just not being fed to them as much because of the lesser number of feedings. I am not so sure anyone really knows what the ideal Discus diet is...Bill

makes a lot of sense Bill, i never really thought of that. great point!

[Scribbles]

I think that most creatures require more protiein as juveniles in order to grow. I honestly haven't worried too much about the protein levels that I feed my adults. I feed a variety of flake, pellet and frozen foods and assume that their needs are met.

Chris

[Eddie]

In a round about way....I powerfeed my young fish with protein. My adults get 2 feeds per day of a well rounded pellet or flake. ;)

Eddie

[keef]

Funny actually because I just revised my feeding procedure last week. My juvies still get the same standard pure b/h w/ spirilina powder supplemented with blood worms.

However for my adults I have upped the amount of vegetable/plant matter I mix with their b/h partly in response to a paper I read a while ago which looked at gut analysis of wild caught fish. The methology & analysis seemed fairly sound with the results section indicating a relatively high amount of autochthonous plant matter in the gut of the wild fish. The possibility of Discus being more opportunistic than I first thought got me thinking & has led me to experiment with larger amounts of plant matter in their diets.

Anyway the point being I have now switched my adults to almost a 50/50 b/h & fish etc to plant matter (spirilina, spinach etc) diet. This is supplemented with f/b/w but no flake or pellet. Like I said it is just out of curiosity really & if I notice any ill affects over the coming months I'll go back to the original higher protein foods I used to feed.

PS - it's an interesting paper - I'll have adig around the archives & try to post a link to it if anybody missed it 1st time around.
Cheers,
Keith

[Jhhnn]

This may be the paper keef is talking about-

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/ni/v6n4/v6n4a08.pdf

[stanlee]

actually to look at it in a simplistic manner, if we slice open the gut of a wild discus to see what's inside, it does not prove that is it's usual diet. it only means what the fish can find in its survival in the river.

the second point of high protein diet can also be viewed this way.

young fishes like all young things need a higher protein diet for obvious reasons.

older fish needs less protein. even if u force it to take a high protein , it will come out the other way if the fish is not constipated.

Assuming that the fish can somehow get the extra protein in, are we really doing good or more harm to the fish, taking into consideration that the protein got to come out of the fish somehow after conversion, and we know that if the fish has a liver or kidney, these organs will work overtime to get it out .

So we will indirectly be giving the fish a premature liver +/- kidney organ failure i.e. sending the discus to fish heaven earlier.

this is my humble take on the emphasis of high protein for discus.
:)

[William Palumbo]

Stan and Keef have some good points and observations. I know in his book Heiko shows a breakdown of what he found in the guts of Discus thru the various high and low river levels, and it comprises mostly of detritus. I would think in MY mind, fish living in a huge watershed such as Amozonia, would have access to plenty of food. But...so many times we see wild caught Discus, with very large eyes, like they are somewhat stunted, and if were an aquarium strain, we would say that they WERE stunted. I would think that would never happen with all that freshwater and "food ". Also on a side note, what is it that makes wild Discus grow so slow? Even in the past when I would power feed them and change water everyday, they seemed to look the same as my domestics passed them by size wise and color wise. IME power feeding wilds did not work. As was said above, the fish can only utilize what it needs, and expells the rest in one form or another. Does the Discus in the wild have a much slower metabalism(growthrate), but reach their adult size YEARS later? Unlike our tankraised Discus who are mature and full size at 12-18 months...Bill

[rickztahone]

Funny actually because I just revised my feeding procedure last week. My juvies still get the same standard pure b/h w/ spirilina powder supplemented with blood worms.

However for my adults I have upped the amount of vegetable/plant matter I mix with their b/h partly in response to a paper I read a while ago which looked at gut analysis of wild caught fish. The methology & analysis seemed fairly sound with the results section indicating a relatively high amount of autochthonous plant matter in the gut of the wild fish. The possibility of Discus being more opportunistic than I first thought got me thinking & has led me to experiment with larger amounts of plant matter in their diets.

Anyway the point being I have now switched my adults to almost a 50/50 b/h & fish etc to plant matter (spirilina, spinach etc) diet. This is supplemented with f/b/w but no flake or pellet. Like I said it is just out of curiosity really & if I notice any ill affects over the coming months I'll go back to the original higher protein foods I used to feed.

PS - it's an interesting paper - I'll have adig around the archives & try to post a link to it if anybody missed it 1st time around.
Cheers,
Keith


actually to look at it in a simplistic manner, if we slice open the gut of a wild discus to see what's inside, it does not prove that is it's usual diet. it only means what the fish can find in its survival in the river.

the second point of high protein diet can also be viewed this way.

young fishes like all young things need a higher protein diet for obvious reasons.

older fish needs less protein. even if u force it to take a high protein , it will come out the other way if the fish is not constipated.

Assuming that the fish can somehow get the extra protein in, are we really doing good or more harm to the fish, taking into consideration that the protein got to come out of the fish somehow after conversion, and we know that if the fish has a liver or kidney, these organs will work overtime to get it out .

So we will indirectly be giving the fish a premature liver +/- kidney organ failure i.e. sending the discus to fish heaven earlier.

this is my humble take on the emphasis of high protein for discus.
:)


Stan and Keef have some good points and observations. I know in his book Heiko shows a breakdown of what he found in the guts of Discus thru the various high and low river levels, and it comprises mostly of detritus. I would think in MY mind, fish living in a huge watershed such as Amozonia, would have access to plenty of food. But...so many times we see wild caught Discus, with very large eyes, like they are somewhat stunted, and if were an aquarium strain, we would say that they WERE stunted. I would think that would never happen with all that freshwater and "food ". Also on a side note, what is it that makes wild Discus grow so slow? Even in the past when I would power feed them and change water everyday, they seemed to look the same as my domestics passed them by size wise and color wise. IME power feeding wilds did not work. As was said above, the fish can only utilize what it needs, and expells the rest in one form or another. Does the Discus in the wild have a much slower metabalism(growthrate), but reach their adult size YEARS later? Unlike our tankraised Discus who are mature and full size at 12-18 months...Bill

all very interesting points. Bill, that is some great insight on WC's which i am not too familiar with. it is curious that even being power fed w/ great water quality they still did not grow out as fast. Mother nature has her own set of rules i guess

[David Rose]

Good thread....

It's my understanding that you also feed high protein such as beef heart mix to pairs to prepare them for spawning...correct?

[pcsb23]

Aren't discus are carnivores?

Timomnivores :)

[plecocicho]

This is a google translate of an interesting german article. Like all google translates is far from optimal.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=sl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aquanet.de%2Fcontent%2Ffachbeit rag%2F59b6fd8c-8096-4457-85dc-a6c88b7ad048&sl=de&tl=en
Discus fish are small particle feeding omnivors, with the tedency to herbivors.

[tcyiu]

omnivores :)

Thanks to the the great links to papers in this thread, I now know that these guys are omnivores/opportunistic feeders in the wild. I was always wondering why I haven't seen canine teeth on my discus.

J/K. LOL!!!

Makes sense to feed more vegetable matter to adults. I'll mix it up a little for the big guys.

Tim