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roclement
12-08-2009, 09:16 PM
Hello everyone…I write this with a sad heart since I do not want to affect someone’s business in a negative way but…I am at a point with no options and don’t want anyone else to go through what I am going through at the moment…I have been a member of the forum since 2002 and this is the first time I am doing this…

I placed an order with Fishking USA vie their pre-order thread for this last shipment, actually Bobtools ordered for me and we shared shipping, same as we did before…I ordered 5 two inch Standing Egg BD at $20 each, and 2 two inch Red Turks at $10.50 each…order was accepted, payment requested was sent.

Once fish had arrived shipping arrangements were made and delivery confirmed…a couple of days before shipping was scheduled they informed Bobtools that they did not have my red Turks but could replace them for 3 inchers …mind you we had already confirmed the fish and sent portion of the payment…I declined since at $10.50 a fish it would be a treat, at $26 a fish it is not worth it IMO…asked that just send me my BD and that was ok since Bobtools was receiving fish anyway shipping cost would be amortized…first red flag went up in my head…maybe it’s just me but…after asking for money you tell me that you can’t fill the order…at least offer the replacement fish at the discounted price but…that’s just my opinion…moving on…

I call Bob on Tuesday morning and he tells me he is not sure what is going on…he never received a tracking number for the fish so we have no clue what time the fish are coming in, he calls Fishking and Mandy tells him they should be here at some point during the day (?)…then sends him a tracking number…it’s 40 degrees outside…kind of cool for fish to spend the day in the UPS truck…fish arrive at Bob’s house at 11:00am or so…maybe the worst has past…wait…box is wet…here we go…

We open the box and in the middle of the newspapers is a bag with Bob’s fish, and a bag with mine…inside it five miniscule bags with a fish in each…never seen such small bags in my life, they were 4 inches in diameter, the fish could barely move! Two of the bags have no air in them and the water temperature is 60 degrees…I rush the fish home and acclimate them via drip slowly as not to shock them…they are in bad shape…one looks ok…

Fish go in the tank, they look horrible, bad, clamped fins, burnt fins, and dark areas that look like nerve damage on the bodies…these fish were beat up! I call Fishking…

I explain to them what’s going on and the state these fish are in…I send them pictures via e-mail…the explanation I was given for the small bags was “to save in shipping costs…” at my expense and at the fishes suffering??? Second explanation…”two inch fish are difficult to offer and ship”…so why did you!? Regarding my incomplete order…”oh we did not receive them…” so why did I pre-order and pay and not get notified earlier????

They tell me they are going to call Mr. Cheng and contact me back…no response for the rest of the day…

Second day…one fish is dead…one looks ok…three look bad, clamped fins, frazzled, hiding…not eating…no response from Fishking…at around 3:00pm my time I e-mail them…”what’s going on…?” Three hours later the reply, this is copied from their e-mail along with my reply:

“Hi Rod,
We can do the full refund if you ship the fish back ALIVE. Or we can credit back each fish for $5.0 because that's what we made on each fish.
We won't ship with UPS as much since they are the main reason damaging the box.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

James & Mandy”

MY REPLY

“...so..I am speechless...now I have to send the fish back! Alive if I want a credit of any sort...I have to find a box...bag them...pay for shipping...and put the fish through the same stress as they were put through just in order to receive some sort of compensation from you!!! I don't ship fish! Notice the emphasis on ALIVE...so if the fish get there dead then I am **** out of luck? I am done with this...tomorrow I will post my experiences on Simply with pictures and let the members deal with it...talk about bad service!
I spent $100 in fish, plus $50 some bucks for my portion of shipping and you want me to accrue more expenses by shipping them back to you and IF they get there ALIVE you will refund me...if not you want to give me $20...please keep your money! I'll try to save these fish, one is dead already...shame on you!
Rod”

So my options are…take $20 bucks and be done with it, or spend over $100 for shipping to send 4 fish back that may not make it anyway to receive a $100 credit from them…so if I follow their logic this is what happens…

I spend $150 for five 2 inch fish ($100 for fish, around $50 for my portion of shipping)
I currently have 3 fish in bad shape, one dead, one ok
I send the 4 back and maybe get $80 credit; I pay an extra $100 or so for shipping…
So I end up with zero fish…at an expense to me of $250 - $80 = $170…did I mention that I end up with no fish!? And maybe…if they get there alive…I would get $80…does this make any sense????

First off…if the fish were in condition to ship, we wouldn’t be having this conversation…second if, as stated in the e-mail above from them, they don’t use UPS much…why did they??? And if UPS if to blame…sue them! Not my fault!!!

I choose to do the following…I do not want their $20 offer…read the e-mail…again not my problem how much you make per fish…they cost ME $20 per fish plus shipping…and I will try to nurse these fish back to health…they ended up costing me $37.50 per fish…for sickly, beaten up, BD…not a good deal…

Now they reply to my e-mail:

“Rod,

Our apology for not letting you understand what we had offered. We meant, if you don't want to keep the fish, you can send them back with full refund. But if you do want to keep the fish, we'll credit back $5 for each fish since the shipping process damage the fish fin. That's what we meant.
It is your right to do whatever you want on Simply, but there won't be any stores or sponsers will do full refund with shipping cost if fish is back dead.
Our uncle owns a fish wholesale near our place for more than 14 years. And based on his expert experiences, water around 60 degree is very normal, especially when it's winter. As long as the fish arrived live, they will recover soon.
Please let us know what you think, and we'll do what we should do.

Best Regards,”

My Response:

“James and Mandy,

Thanks for the clarification, it does make more sense this way...I can't send the fish back, I don't ship fish...I understand your offer and think it's fair, the only thing that I ask is that you refund me fully for one fish since it died and I will accept the $5 for the others, that would make the refund a total of $40, $5 for four fish, and $20 for the fish that didn't make it. I think that's a fair compromise since the shipping responsability is yours and even tought it was alive when it got to my house, it was dead this morning.

I don't mean to tell you how to do business but I have been around this hobby all my life...I've been a member at Simply since 2002...60 degree water is not normal for discus, even in the winter, 70 degree is normal...65 acceptable...having said that, if UPS is responsible for damaging the box and as you stated, you don't like to use them, stop using them! Also the small bags don't save you money...the fish suffer in there and arrive in bad shape, they cost you money. The heat packs were cold and wrapped in plastic...they should not be wrapped in plastic, they need air in order to produce heat.

Fedex has a rate per box size that allows for a lot more weight so it does not matter how much water you put into the bags because the weight does not affect the cost of shipping, I received the same size box from Kenny, with 16 three to four inch fish in it! All in bigger bags much heavier in weight! The shipping cost was roughly the same as yours...it can be done, just don't do it to the expense of the fish.

Lastly, one thing that upset me a lot is that I wanted the Red Turks and you accepted the order and payment and only informed Bob that you didn't have them once we were planning the shipping date...I understand that sometimes fish don't show up as expected but you could have told me sooner, or you could have offered the larger fish at the pre-order price and not at your regular retail, just my opinion and something for you to think about.

Bottom line is I have four fish in my tanks and maybe they will turn out OK...I will accept $40 and be done with it, anything else is up to you. I will not post on Simply and call it resolved.

Rod”

This was sent to them ( I have all these e-mails, with time stamps and have forwarded them to Al). I don’t hear back from them again…

Until this point this is a conversation between me and them, no one else is involved…Bob and them exchanged e-mails were apparently he suggested to them to re-fund me my money since I was very unhappy and their lack of action or response is making me mad and I may post on Simply…they apparently agreed with him and e-mailed him that they would send him my money back (we used Bob’s paypal for the order) so he could give it to me…Bob calls me and tells me this, I am beyond happy since it is more then I expected! SO we move on…

This morning I get an e-mail forwarded from Bob from Fishking acusing him of threatening them and trying to get money from them…they use my e-mail, that they never replied to, and tell Bob that I am more reasonable then him, etc…now keep in mind that this e-mail was not meant to me so I will not post it here, Bob can do so if he chooses. So now I understand why they were not responding to me…they agreed to something with Bob and then realized that they could get away with less and decided to change the game…my response to their e-mail to Bob:

“WOW...now I know what is really going on here! So Bob was trying to help you guys out by comunicating my dissapointment in my order and you were delaying responding to me just so you could try to play both sides of the deal!

My e-mail to you came without the knowledge of your conversations with Bob...you obviuosly were talking to him about this before responding to me...my e-mail to you was a compromise since I just want to stop dealing with you and believed, based on your short responses, and lack of follow-up, that if I could get anything back from you would be better than nothing!

As of righ now you haven't even bothered answering my e-mail but managed to use it against Bob who was just trying to help you! Too bad you didn't listen! Now he forwarded this e-mail to me and I must reply since you involved me in it! From what I read Bob didn't even ask for anything for himself, he pleaded on my behalf (thanks Bob!) and on behalf of your business...to bad you were not able to see it!

Please keep your money, I don't care for any re-fund! As I believe you would see it as "hush money", I will however post on Simply, my entire transaction and e-mail exchange so people know who they would be dealing with. I am very sorry it is coming to this, posting on Simply is not a threat. it is not meant as leverage, it is a service to other people that belong to that forum, people that like me, has come to trust sponsors, and the place Al is running. I have copied him on all my comunications with you and am doing the same with this e-mail.

By the way...you did promise Bob a 5inch fish and didn't deliver, the fact that he didn't ask you for anything as refund is very honorable of him, he chose to look after me and not himself...I will touch base with Al and see what he wants me to do.”

Fishking Reponse

“Rod,

We received your email at 3:47pm, and we replied it at 5:34pm. We received Bob's email at 5:33pm, and we replied it at 5:44pm. We didn't play with you!!!
We were being honest. “

My Response

“I never received a reply from you untill 6 minutes ago...I have the e-mails with time stamps and and forwarded them to AL and Bob as well, I emailed you yesterday and did not receive a reply until six minutes ago! Oddly enough when I just wrote this one in response to what you wrote Bob, you replied right away...you are not Honorable people! Shame on you! Do you think I am a kid? Don;t try to play nice with me and use my e-mail against someone else.

Rod”

And now the story changes…

“Money has been sent.


English isn't our 1st language, it needs time to think and type. That's all we can say.”

And again…

Did you see the email that we replied to Bob said we'll pay you $100 back? We were on the way to Canada rescuing fish when your email arrived, so we didn't reply it right away until we got to the destination. And after we sent your email, we received Bob's, and we replied it right away. we didn't and never fool people. We have all the email stamps can prove.

My response…

“I see, so now you are contracticting your own previous statement,,,wich is it? You sent me an e-mail yesterday right away..? Oh no! You never did because English isn't your first language...very confusing! By the way...it isn't mine either, I am from Brasil and never tried to use that as an excuse for poor business practices...I'll decide if I will keep your money or not. I am also impressed by your sudden quick response time...interesting...!

Rod”

Ever since this exchange James has re-funded me $100 for my fish so I was in for about $60 for shipping expenses, not bad however…the saga continues…

All the fish in the same room get sick, not only the ones from Fishking…all of my Rose Reds that I had since fry from Bobtools are now sick! I received a message in my phone from James after Al (brewmaster) called him. Here is the e-mail I sent him the next day, December 4th.

“James,

I got your phone call message, I was at work and could not answer the phone, I work very late here but will try to give you a call later on today as I know there is a big time difference between where you are and me here in the East Coast.

Thanks for the appologie, it is very much accepted and I believe it to be sincere. Also thanks for the refund, Bob told me he received it and will forward it to me soon, it was very generous of you.

I have a problem with the fish being sick, and now my other fish in the tank besides them are sick as well! They are all on the surface gasping for air, mucous is coming out from their bodies, fins are clamped, and they stopped eating! All the fish I have in my other tank have been with me since birth and were perfectly healthy and now both tanks are sick! Luckily for me all my other tanks are in a different room and have not been afected!

Al (brewmaster) mentioned to me that you seem to have been having problems with all the fish from the shipment with similar symptoms and that Mr. Cheng may have sent you some medication, is there any chance I can get some help here? How do I treat this? What is the medication? Can you send me some ASAP? Al mentioned it may be airborne so I will do my best to keep the other systms away from this. Any help or nfo appreciated here.

Thanks!”
I called James and spoke to him briefly, he explained to me that they are having issues with their supplier, was very sorry and would do right by everyone affected. He also told me that they would stop selling fish for at least 3 months until they sorted everything out.
James sends the meds out UPS ground, here is the tracking number:

http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/processRequest?HTMLVersion=5.0&Requester=NES&AgreeToTermsAndConditions=yes&loc=en_US&tracknum=1Z20098E0393169150

Scheduled delivery is 12/11/09…so much for ASAP!!!! It was shipped on the 4th!
James also sends an e-mail out recommending dropping PH down to 4.5 (!!!), my reply to him:

“James,

I would be careful recomending PH drops, a decrease of that magnitute would take more than a week to achieve properly, by that time if the medication doesn't work, the fish will be dead already!

The fish can suffer much more if someone drops their PH suddenly, you know some people would take that as a solution to the problem a drop the PH in one shot using some chemical aid.

Question for you...I see you have fish in Aquabid for sale, I think it's because you forgot to pull the sales or the fish listed are in a different system, careful so you don;t end up with sick fish out there or a poor Aquabid rating. Just trying to help.

I'll call you when the meds come in!

Thanks again!

Rod”

My e-mail from today 12/08/09

“so far I have not received the medication and the fish started dying, one dead of my rose red, fish are looking really bad!

Rod”

No replies…



Some clarifications:

Bobtools is more than welcome to post his personal experience here if he so chooses, this thread is about my experience and I don’t mean to speak for him.

During my phone calls to Fishking I told them just to let me know what they proposed to do, I told them that I WOULD NOT post on Simply without giving them a chance to deal with the situation first…bad things happen in shipping…how you deal with the problem dictates what kind of business you run.

I notified them via my e-mail that I was going to post here, read their e-mails…maybe this forum and it’s members are not important for their business

I made Al (brewmaster) aware of this whole situation via PM and have copied him in every e-mail and on this post so this would not come as a surprise to him since they are sponsors here.

Since this whole thing started I have been giving Fishking the benefit of the doubt about their intentions, and now I have been holding this post in hopes that they would pay me for my lost fish and the ones that will eventually die. No more…I am one of the lucky ones since these fish are in a different room then my wilds, and my fish from Hans and Kenny. I am loosing the blues from Fishking, and the Rose Reds from Bob, the ones I have had since they were fry and are now 3.5 to 4 inches…other people are loosing more than that.

I honestly feel that I we to this Forum to share this experience, it is more important that I do this then to get re-funded for my loses.

Al I am very sorry for the headache that may come from this.

Jut my honest experience, any questions just ask.


Rod

moik
12-08-2009, 09:41 PM
I am sad to read this..It takes alot of hard work and experience to be a sponsor selling discus...Not for one second to think how lucky we are to have the great sponsors here at Simply.. Just hope there is a "silver lining" at the end of this..Best wishes.

roclement
12-08-2009, 10:03 PM
they are sponsors here...that's why I notified Brewmaster before I posted.

Rod

moik
12-08-2009, 10:58 PM
I know very well they are a sponsor here at Simply...New sponsor/new customers/new experiences..All part of the big picture/history being made..I have been taken advantage of 3 times in the past...Still remember like it was yesterday. That is why I deal with certain individuals and they are my very good friends now..Hang in there..

Rod[/QUOTE]

roclement
12-08-2009, 11:05 PM
thanks, I had misunderstood you...this is a first personaly for me...very disapointed.So far I have received pm from two other members that are having similar issues, and of course Bobtools, hope people can get some money back as promised, I just want other people to be aware.

Rod

Lotusan
12-08-2009, 11:12 PM
I've ordered from james and mandy twice and had a good experience. I was going to put in a big order this time but seemed like the price was a bit high as compared to my last order so I didn't. Lucky for me because I only have one fish room but have about 50 discus. I could only imagine if all of them got sick!!! Hang in there Rod.

moik
12-08-2009, 11:21 PM
It is only human to make mistakes.It could happen to anyone at anytrime.....Once the problem is reconized..The main thing is how the matter is handled there after..That is how I would draw my conclusion..

roclement
12-09-2009, 12:14 AM
thanks all for the support! i just want to point out that these are my experiences and do not want to speak for other people here. Bobtools has authorized me to use his name and message, other people that Pm'd me have to post their own experiences if they so choose...all I can say is that the owner of this forum has been copied in all my e-mail exchanges, and pm's I have received here.

Treatment wise now I am conducting very large water changes twice a day, and using salt as a tonic. I did not want to use meds since I am not sure what is coming in the mail and did not want to add something that may interact with their medication. It seems form what I heard from other people that this is a bacterial infection that may be airborne...I am lucky that these fish are in my room and not in my main fish room!

Rod

brewmaster15
12-09-2009, 07:30 AM
All-

Sadly... Disease outbreaks can happen in this hobby, and can be devastating to both buyers and sellers.. I have been on both sides of the fence there in the past as have many many others..:(...This incident is very unfortunate and Rod has sent me all correspondence as he said he did. I have spoken with James of Fishking here and I can only hope that Fishking resolves these issues fairly and ASAP with those affected. I will be evaluating this matter as it pertains to sponsorship status very carefully. Affected SimplyDiscus members can contact me by pm if they wish to make me aware of their experiences privately and confidentially.

As stated many times before in this section...the Livestock Review section is solely for personal experiences..I ask all members to share their Personal First hand Experiences with Fish king in this thread... BOTH Positive and NEGATIVE.... I ask all those that have not had direct experiences to share to please adhere to forum rules and refrain from commenting... Taking sides and spouting off opinions based on limited information is not fair to either Buyers or Sellers... and may impair any possible resolutions...such posts will be removed.

Thankyou,
Al

DISCUS USA
12-09-2009, 11:23 AM
Rod im just curious how are Bobs fish from that same order you guys made?Hope your fish pull thru and you get this whole thing sorted out as quikly as possible.

Chad Hughes
12-09-2009, 12:15 PM
Rod,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. That's really a shame.

Unfortunately you can't always rely on forum sponsorship to ensure that you are going to have a flawless transaction. Yes, it's better than going with some outfit that has no recognition, but problems still arise. Hopefully you'll break even in the end and save your rose reds.

Keep us posted!

Best wishes.

terps
12-09-2009, 12:56 PM
To my knowledge, Fedex does not have a rate to box size.

FedEx charges freight based on arrival time, weight of box and volume of box(they also charge fees for rural addresses, home delivery, fuel surcharges, etc). The more the box weighs, the more it costs to send. If a box doesn't weigh much, but is very large in volume, it also costs more to send. Fedex charges by weight or volume of box depending on which costs more. When shipping anything with Fedex, you want to keep the box size as small as possible and as light as possible. You can easily calculate freight shipping charges on the Fedex website.

FedEx recently announced they will raise rates on average by 4.9% next year.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hY6rzZ1ZxgZYamCBhddmxKv9Ud6AD9CC45605

roclement
12-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Thanks for the encouragement...

Bob is welcome to post his experiences here or elsewhere, up to him and I don't want to speak for him other than what he authorized me to do.

Please understand that Al (brewmaster) has been great during all of this, he tried real hard to mediate some of these exchanges between me and Fishking. I do not hold the forum or anyone responsible for any issues with this transaction.

I will not speak for anybody else since people out there are still hopeful that they will receive some sort of compensation for their dead fish. I was compensated for the fish they shipped me minus shiping expenses, that was for the poor shape the fish arrived, then I realized that it was not just poor shipping, it was also disease and it spread to my other fish. Those losses are the ones I am willing to take on my own without compensation so that I can post this here and make other people aware of my experience.

Again, these arte my experiences and Al can verify that my exchanges with Fhishking are real and I didn't make any of this up.

Rod

William Palumbo
12-09-2009, 01:53 PM
I feel for you Rod. And like all lows in this hobby...this too shall pass. I am surprised the other party is not on here explaining or defending themselves, as you can be sure they are reading everything posted. I am just surprised at their silence. All the best with it Rod...Bill

roclement
12-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Thank you...I survived a girlfriend killing all my fish and I witnessed many people loosing all their fish with DD Discus...just want to make people aware...I will post a shocking picture of my fish either today if I get home early enough from work or tomorrow...once one dies the gates are open...it is a very sad thig to see fish dying like that...

rod

roclement
12-09-2009, 02:13 PM
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75526

look at post #4.

rod

roclement
12-09-2009, 02:14 PM
sorry double posted...

rickztahone
12-09-2009, 02:46 PM
im so sorry to hear about your bad experience Rod. what is worse is that you are barely getting back into discus keeping and then this happens. if i were a breeder i would honestly send you some discus free of charge. i just hope this doesnt make you lose the passion of discus keeping. one expects bad experiences when dealing with mail order but we have come accustomed to great transactions with our SD sponsors. something like this does make you aware, as Chad pointed out, that mistakes do happen. im just sorry it had to come at the expense of the fish and yourself.

roclement
12-09-2009, 02:54 PM
thank you ricardo! It would take more than this to get me out of the hobby again!

moik
12-09-2009, 03:38 PM
I can honestly feel for you in this situation...atleast it was out of your control,unlike my depressing situation..
Thank you...I survived a girlfriend killing all my fish and I witnessed many people loosing all their fish with DD Discus...just want to make people aware...I will post a shocking picture of my fish either today if I get home early enough from work or tomorrow...once one dies the gates are open...it is a very sad thig to see fish dying like that...

rod

acroken
12-09-2009, 04:39 PM
Hey Rod, Man i am sorry to hear this. It is terrible when sellers do not stand behind their product. Who cares what their profit margins are. This is BS! How can you expect to run a successful business if you do not take care of your customers. Sometimes even in the worst situations a seller can turn things around and really regain the respect and loyalty of their customers by doing the right thing. I have some Red Rose's from the same spawn i will give you N/C. I have about 350 RR fry now, so needless to say i have plenty. Let me know, i see Bob every once in awhile so I could drop them off to you.

also-I have some Red Turks that are about 3 1/2" if interested

Kenny

roclement
12-09-2009, 05:00 PM
Kenny,

Thanks, very kind of you. I still have all my fish from hans and kenny alive and very well in my other room, for now they are safe! Knock on wood!

Once I get trough this whole thing and sterilize a tank or two, I may take you up on the offer!

Just to clarify another point for everyone...

James has contacted other people and told them that him and Mr. Chen would cover all the fish losses people may have incurred from the disease caused by their fish. That would be very honorable of them and it would show comitment to our hobby and comunity.
I have e-mailed James and asked him to confirm this to me in writing and offered to post it here in this thread. If I hear back from them I will update my thread.

As always, my intent is to inform of a situation and not "bad mouth" someone with unfounded acusations, if Fishking does the right thing for those of us affected, I will be the first one to post it here and recognize their efforts.

Rod

moik
12-09-2009, 05:02 PM
Very happy to see things move into positive direction. The "Silver lining" is starting to show..

roclement
12-09-2009, 05:15 PM
"My e-mail to James:

James,

As you probably know I posted on Simply about my experience, I want to be very fair about this and Bob told me that he spoke with you today and you promissed that everyone's losses would be refunded included the fish that were in our tanks that were not purchased from you. I would like to post that in my thread because I truly belive that you are not comunicating very well with everyone about your intentions.

I want to be fair to you, if you honestly want to compensate people for their losses let me know and I will post that on Simply, it would be a very good thing for your credibility. It could be something like this:

"Rod,

I fully intend to compensate everyone's losses that ocurred due to the fish that we shipped out, including fish that did not come from us but have contracted the disease our fish carried.

Please contact me directly with proper documentation of fish loss and dollar amounts so we can get this process started.

We here at Fishking USA are very sorry for all the problems we have caused and hope to make emends with all discus keepers out there that may have suffered from our transactions, our intentions are honest and honorable and fixing this situation is our only priority at this time.

Sincerely,

James
Fishking USA"


Let me know what you want me to do.

Rod"


His response:

"Rod,


Thank you for this email as I was pounding hard in my head try to translate Chinese letter into English. I could do short emails no problem, but when it's time to explain, it'll take me hours to do so.


Like I told Bob, it's not that I don't want to settle this issue, it's because Mr. Chen isn't around, and it's hard to communicate with him when he is in Malaysia, and the time zone is like 16 hours different. I can't solve this by myself, you know. That's why I choose to be silent until he is back.


Please post what you have written, and I will try to explain everything later.


Thanks again.


James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA
fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com
www.fishkingdiscususa.com"


I am very glad to see that we seem to be making progress and it seems to me that James has good intentions, I will keep my fingers crossed for all of us who are having these issues but this does seem to be a light in the end of the tunnel.

Rod

Cooldadddyfunk286
12-09-2009, 06:02 PM
Hey Rod, Man i am sorry to hear this. It is terrible when sellers do not stand behind their product. Who cares what their profit margins are. This is BS! How can you expect to run a successful business if you do not take care of your customers. Sometimes even in the worst situations a seller can turn things around and really regain the respect and loyalty of their customers by doing the right thing. I have some Red Rose's from the same spawn i will give you N/C. I have about 350 RR fry now, so needless to say i have plenty. Let me know, i see Bob every once in awhile so I could drop them off to you.

also-I have some Red Turks that are about 3 1/2" if interested

Kenny

Kenny, ur such a great guy! :D I just wanted to throw that out there. I think all of your good karma just poured into your contest fish tank! ;)

Rod - Im very sorry to hear about this. S**t happens man, you know? it sucks. hey, Im just curious...how did your girl kill all of your fish in the past?? you can PM me if you feel like tellin me lol, im just wondering thats all. again, sorry for your losses, like you said...atleast ur wilds, kenny and hans fish are OK.

take care Rod.

Aquaben19
12-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Hey Rod, Man i am sorry to hear this. It is terrible when sellers do not stand behind their product. Who cares what their profit margins are. This is BS! How can you expect to run a successful business if you do not take care of your customers. Sometimes even in the worst situations a seller can turn things around and really regain the respect and loyalty of their customers by doing the right thing. I have some Red Rose's from the same spawn i will give you N/C. I have about 350 RR fry now, so needless to say i have plenty. Let me know, i see Bob every once in awhile so I could drop them off to you.

also-I have some Red Turks that are about 3 1/2" if interested

Kenny

As always, Kenny is a class act.

Sorry for the situation you are in Rod, but it looks like things may turn around...

Al, you may have no choice but to move this thread, but somehow keep the product review portion where it belongs... if that makes any sense lol.

Ben

BOBT00LS
12-09-2009, 06:07 PM
Glad to hear that you heard from James and things moving in the right direction. Just to give everyone a little insight, I received 1 discus from FishKing (James and Mandy) and that one fish went into a 20 gallon QT tank alone. The size of the fish was not as promised which started this off on a bad note. The discus was acclimated and put into the QT with the lights off until the next morning so I didnt reaaly look at it closely. The next morning I turned the lights on to find the discus with clamped and cloudy fins which spread eventually to its body. This was Wednesday morning and by Friday ALL of my discus were infected. Keep in mind that I purchased a new hose and buckets to maintain this tank as not to cross contaminate. Just to keep it short I lost 5 discus yesterday and woke this morning to find 27 dead. Im sure the other 50 which include many adult albinos will follow suit. If by some miracle some of them pull through, they are no good to me as I WILL NOT sell these fish to anyone and jeopardize their discus. I spoke with James today and just as Rod had stated, he ensures that all will be compensated for any losses as a result of his discus. Communication between James, Mr Chen and those affected at this point is of very high importance. Perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel as many have stated on this post. Perhaps I may even stick with discus when I have pondered several times while dealing with this to give it up. Pics of my losses are posted below. The first two pics are from today and the last five were yesterday.

Bob

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-9-091.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-9-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbAlenq12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbIntAlenq12-8-09001.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbTurk12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbiTurk12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/RoseRed12-8-09.jpg

Aquaben19
12-09-2009, 06:18 PM
Ugh Bob, so sorry, my stomach turned when I saw those pics. I have always liked looking at pictures of your Discus, to see them like that is gut wrenching.

I hope you disinfect, clean up and try again because the hobby would suffer to lose a Hobbyist breeder such as yourself..

Ben

The Rockster
12-09-2009, 06:56 PM
I know very well they are a sponsor here at Simply...New sponsor/new customers/new experiences..All part of the big picture/history being made..I have been taken advantage of 3 times in the past...Still remember like it was yesterday. That is why I deal with certain individuals and they are my very good friends now..Hang in there..

Rod[/QUOTE]
Hi,
I'm new and just got back to keeping Discus. We really feel your pain, and hope your nightmare will be over soon.

We are blessed by having a GREAT friend, and breeder at Wattley's Discus.Should you decide to purchase from him PM us and we will set you up.
He is EXTREMELY professional, and a leader of breeders.

moik
12-09-2009, 07:01 PM
All my present problems with my discus today are miniscule to this..I am very sad to witness this..Nothing but high hopes and best wishes for you people in this situation...So very sorry for everything happening.

shime
12-09-2009, 07:30 PM
Hi Guys,
Long time simply discus member and I also have had the same problem...
Last week i received 4 F1 wild greens from Fish King. Its the same story with the box - wet and not sealed right... It looked as though ups cut opened it and then duct taped it together.
Well After 2 days the **** hit the fan. The 4 were covered with slime and darting. I used Furan 2 for 5 days and lowered the ph slowly,no results came from it. i also kept 3tbls per 10g salt on them as well. After the 5th day i did a pp bath on them and let them rest that day and started triple sulfa on them the day after. They seem to be recovering but i did lose 2. Now unfortunately my nearby stendker tank is infected as well.
I really hope things can work out with James and I and the other members here that are infected.

Eddie

fishkingdiscususa
12-09-2009, 07:32 PM
Hi all,

We have to sincerely apologize to everyone here in the forum, especially to those who received fish from our November shipment.

We didn't try to avoid the responsibilities, it's just all happened so suddenly when Mr. Chen wasn't around.

When we first received this shipment, nothing was unusual, fish got stressed after 30 plus hrs flight transportation, so we put them under 1 week quarantine observation, still, nothing happened. So we delivered the fish to Vancouver and ship from there, then couple of Simply hobbyists came down here to Seattle from Vancouver to pick up some fish on the weekends. Then we shipped the fish to Rod & Bob and other 2 members on Monday. We did receive a PM saying some of our fish in Canada got airborne infection during the transportation, we didn't pay too much attention because we thought it's just another normal transaction. But right after that, our fish got sick, and we got phone calls from Vancouver stating their fish got sick, too. So we contacted Mr. Chen and tried to understand what happened, then we cancelled all other shipments.

(When Mr. Chen was still in China, a new shipment came, all wild. So Mr. Chen's employees put them in a different room quarantine with some other fish, and soon those fish were all infected without warning. Mr. Chen was notified right away, so he flew back next day and medicated the fish.
He tried to postpone the shipment to us, but since there was no any sickness appeared after several days observation, he decided to ship them just like scheduled.)

After knowing what happened, Mr. Chen sent medication right away, then after we received it, we shipped them out, and we went to Vancouver again delivered the medication.
We didn't ignore emails, we were just too busy driving around saving fish.

We talked to Al, but he thought it's better say nothing, just send the medication out, rather than spread panic around, so we remained silent. While the medications were on the way, we also tried different ways to heal the illness also notified the purchasers the new treatment; we also continued to contact Mr. Chen regarding the refund issue, but unfortunately, he was out in Malaysia doing business, all we know is what his wife told us they will do their best to reimburse all the loss.

We know we are new, but this can't be an excuse to escape from what happened. We'll be responsible for all the loss, but we need time to communicate with Mr. Chen, and time for him to find the best way to compensate. Please send all the dead fish pics to fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com, and we'll contact you shortly.

We'll also ask Mr. Chen to appear in the forum, and briefly explain & apologize for what had happened. But please understand this, English is our second language, so it'll take longer for him to write.

We will do our best to resolve all the problems before holidays, so we can all have a nice 2010.

Sincerely,

FishKing Discus USA

roclement
12-09-2009, 07:44 PM
James,

Thank you very much for posting here, this is the kind of outcome we can all hope for, like I said before, my losses are small compared to others...I hope all of this gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

Rod

Organic Farmer
12-09-2009, 07:51 PM
So sorry to hear of everybodies losses.

prolude006
12-09-2009, 08:15 PM
So any word on what the disease is? Strange it spreads that fast without water to water contact.
Did swine flu pass to fish now or something?

Hope everything gets resolved for everyone.

Mello
12-09-2009, 08:15 PM
I'm the same as everybody here that purchase fish from Fishking who got the plague too. I imediately informed James that the fish that I got from him got some kinda disease that it's spreading to my whole healthy stock. I sent pictures to him to prove that my fish are sick(dark,gasping for air white slime on the body etc). He and his wife Mandy responded quickly and drove 3 hours from Seattle to Vancouver Canada to help us rescue our fish. It's not only me that they tried to help 2 other members on this forum are from Vancouver as well. They went from house to house to deliver the medicine to try save our stock. Unfortunately the fish are still sick and some died. I don't think they are trying to run away from this problem but it happened so quick that they couldn't accomodate all of us that are having the same problems. Also they coudn't reach Mr. Chen to help them out to decide what to do with all of us. I really do appreciate when they came all the way down here and try to help us. They answered all my phone calls and responded to my emails. They even called me 12 am midnight to tell me that they received meds from Mr. Chen for me try for my fish. They also assured me that they will settle this problem and compensate everyone that got affected by this virus. It's really sad for all of us to lose our fish just like that. It's a really stressful and time consuming to try to save our stock.

David Rose
12-09-2009, 08:15 PM
Sorry to hear of this awful experience. I know DiscusFreakaZoid ordered an Albino Turk that I bought from him a few days later. It became bloated, but Epsom Salts did the trick. So far so good from that point.

I hope this issue gets resolved very soon, so you'll be able to put it behind you.

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-09-2009, 08:21 PM
Hi Guys,
Long time simply discus member and I also have had the same problem...
Last week i received 4 F1 wild greens from Fish King. Its the same story with the box - wet and not sealed right... It looked as though ups cut opened it and then duct taped it together.
Well After 2 days the **** hit the fan. The 4 were covered with slime and darting. I used Furan 2 for 5 days and lowered the ph slowly,no results came from it. i also kept 3tbls per 10g salt on them as well. After the 5th day i did a pp bath on them and let them rest that day and started triple sulfa on them the day after. They seem to be recovering but i did lose 2. Now unfortunately my nearby stendker tank is infected as well.
I really hope things can work out with James and I and the other members here that are infected.

Eddie


i had the same problem first time i ordered with them. Bag was low in water and fishes mouth was protruding out and box was wet. I wasnt sure if it was ups or just them being new and not knowing how to do it properly or ups could just be doing last minute adjustments to make weight. My stomach dropped because it was a big beautiful fish and didnt deserve die in that manner not that any fish does but i had my heart set on this fish before i bought it. Luckily i got it into a styro box i use for drippin and air bubble and it survived with no trauma. So i gave them benefit of the doubt and ordered again from them. they were nice to provide me alot of pics and let me choose. In the end that is what i look for since im very peculiar about what discus i purchase. So second time around bagging was perfect. no leaks and nicely tucked in a box like one of Kennys jobs even with a heatpack. fish was heathy and active in the bag and as soon as i put him in the drippin box he was moving well. Dave has him now. there kind of in your face kind of sales people but i can respect that when thats there living and there tryin to jumpstart there business on here. They have beautiful fish and strains other sponsors dont offer and there new so hopefully they can move on from this rocky beginning and provide us with some beauties in the future from Mr chen and learn to work with simplymembers to the best of there abilities and provide excellent customer service like we are use too from sponsors here. that Strategy never fails as you can see how well some sponsors are doing here "cough cough" Kenny :D and Hans who i met once. havent had any exp with other sponsors but will soon. im glad things worked out for you roclement with a little persistency and your effective communication you got somewhat of the result you wanted. i really appreciate you sharing this with us so others who felt in the dark can come out and share there experiences to. In the end it helps consumer as well as supplier. I will continue to do business with them because they gave me no reason not too. I am sure they will make amends and start off 2010 learning from this and providing us with real nice fishies :

Heres a pic of the one fish i got from them that is feisty which i can tell helped him live thru that shipping ordeal. i Luv showin him off he is my Baby :balloon::bandana:

dean9922
12-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Hi Roclement
I sure hope everything works out ok for you and the others. This whole scenario sucks and wish everyone affected by this the best.....

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-09-2009, 08:33 PM
Sorry to hear of this awful experience. I know DiscusFreakaZoid ordered an Albino Turk that I bought from him a few days later. It became bloated, but Epsom Salts did the trick. So far so good from that point.

I hope this issue gets resolved very soon, so you'll be able to put it behind you.


im goin to need some epsom salt after i get bloated from xmas parties:) glad the fish is doing well. ill have to swing by and check him out.

brewmaster15
12-09-2009, 08:40 PM
James,
This is a very difficult thing for all involved I am sure and I think its great that you will be taking care of all these losses... But as I said during our telephone call ... communication needs to be maintained
with your customers when a problem occurs.. If you could not reach your supplier...you still have a responsibility to communicate with your customers and let them know whats going on. I can't stress that enough.

One very very important note of clarification...

We talked to Al, but he thought it's better say nothing, just send the medication out, rather than spread panic around, so we remained silent.
This is your business James...I tried to help you, Rod, and Bob resolve your issues..it was not my responsibility to do so.... and When I spoke with You, I strongly suggested you immediately close out this order on the forum and not sell any more stock from this order AND contact ALL your customers that recieved fish from this order to let them know about the problems.....which you did not do....


I do not want anyone here thinking I was trying to keep something off the forum..I encouraged Rod and Bob to post what ever they felt appropriate and have the emails to prove that.

-al

ps..Bob...I am so sorry that you have gone thru this.....don't throw in the towel though....

roclement
12-09-2009, 09:59 PM
As I stated many times in my posts, Al has been nothing but helpful, I firmly believe that had it not been for Al's help, this situation would not have move forward.

Al in no way kept me from posting, from my first comunication with him, I was told to post whatever I felt apropriate, he encouraged comunication with Fishking and spent over 6 hours on the phone with them on all of this. I am sure that had it not been for Al and Bob I would not have received any money...so sure in fact that I am going to donate all the $100 to the Forum since without this place situations like this would happen all the time without all of us knowing.

Rod

mlov1022
12-09-2009, 10:04 PM
Glad to hear that you heard from James and things moving in the right direction. Just to give everyone a little insight, I received 1 discus from FishKing (James and Mandy) and that one fish went into a 20 gallon QT tank alone. The size of the fish was not as promised which started this off on a bad note. The discus was acclimated and put into the QT with the lights off until the next morning so I didnt reaaly look at it closely. The next morning I turned the lights on to find the discus with clamped and cloudy fins which spread eventually to its body. This was Wednesday morning and by Friday ALL of my discus were infected. Keep in mind that I purchased a new hose and buckets to maintain this tank as not to cross contaminate. Just to keep it short I lost 5 discus yesterday and woke this morning to find 27 dead. Im sure the other 50 which include many adult albinos will follow suit. If by some miracle some of them pull through, they are no good to me as I WILL NOT sell these fish to anyone and jeopardize their discus. I spoke with James today and just as Rod had stated, he ensures that all will be compensated for any losses as a result of his discus. Communication between James, Mr Chen and those affected at this point is of very high importance. Perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel as many have stated on this post. Perhaps I may even stick with discus when I have pondered several times while dealing with this to give it up. Pics of my losses are posted below. The first two pics are from today and the last five were yesterday.

Bob

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-9-091.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-9-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbAlenq12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbIntAlenq12-8-09001.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbTurk12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/AlbiTurk12-8-09.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/RoseRed12-8-09.jpgOh no Bob :(:( I have a pit in my stomach after seeing this. I really hope something good comes out of all this for you and Rod.

mmorris
12-09-2009, 10:14 PM
This is really heart-wrenching. I'm so terribly sorry, guys. But kudos to you for posting about it on the forum. Has anyone scoped a fish? It would have to be done while it is still alive.

hedut
12-09-2009, 10:15 PM
WOW that a lot lose Bob.....sorry to see that happen

Darren's Discus
12-09-2009, 11:17 PM
So sorry for all involved !Bob keep your chin up,this has happened to me a few times over the years with my biggest loss being over 200 fish and i have thrown in the towel a few times over it.I have now learned to move on it's very sad but we are in a hobby that deals with living things,i wish you all the best for the future.



cheers

bettebulldog
12-09-2009, 11:48 PM
maybe they should qt longer than 7 days. this is just awful:mad:

joanr
12-10-2009, 12:21 AM
Yes, it's just horrible. Reminds me of the Black Discus Plaque that hit in '04-05. Anyone remember those pics of Cary's discus just piled out on the rocks in his backyard? Over 200 fish from airborne virus that came from a few imports he brought in for breeding. I'm glad that James and Mandy are offering reparations to all, and hopefully learn from these losses. One week is not QT, not by a long shot. My heart goes out to all who have lost fish in this ordeal.

DISCUS USA
12-10-2009, 12:29 AM
One week is not QT, not by a long shot.

Some sponsors QT a week without problems..the longer you sit on fish the more it eats into your profits..

trusty
12-10-2009, 12:43 AM
Hi guys I received about 2 Discus order from James and Mandy from prior shipments and all came in great with heat packs the works this would of been my third order which I preordered and paid for.
But since I was out of town I wasn't able to get the November shipment I was all excited but then I got the bad news about the fish.And Mandy offered a full refund but I declined the offer in hopes that the fish get better and I can get my fish. I easily have over $600 plus for discus. This is tragic, I care for all discus I hate to lose any of my discus family, and I am glad that Mr. Chen is going to take care of this and I know how you feel buddy my x killed my fish to. I never been the same. But James and Mandy communicated with me and where very honest about all this.

seanyuki
12-10-2009, 02:35 AM
I also got six 4 ins ARGDs from James/Mandy from the Nov shipment but unfortunately they had a virus in them and passed it on to my other tanks and lost several discus included my beloved albino strains.....James/Mandy made the efforts by bringing in the medications from Seattle trying to save the discus at my place.....he made several pit stops to deliver the medications to my friends in Vancouver.....I must thank him for doing all this extra work in order to make his customers happy.....he traveled all this way with his wife Mandy and the little baby girl.....very stressful for him and his family too.
I understand that James/Mr.Chen will do their best to compensate everybody losses in this shipment.....please be patience with them.


cheers
Francis:)

Discus-Hans
12-10-2009, 03:32 AM
I wish them all the best, they need it, you don't wish this to even your worse enemy, I hope Mr. Chen backs you up,

Hans

jerzguy
12-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Bob & Rod,
I feel sorry for the loss and the pain. I was totally shocked looking at those pictures. I wish all the best for both of you.

Regards,

roclement
12-10-2009, 12:01 PM
and my fish are basically dead...the ones in the tank that is...the ones in the other room are fine...pictures tomorrow since I am off from work...sad day for me since the rose reds were basically home grown...there are two still breathing but I don't expect them to make it...

rod

BOBT00LS
12-10-2009, 12:31 PM
I know exactly how you feel Rod. I woke up this morning to find 14 more dead which included 10 young adult Albino Yellow Whites, 2 young adult Albino Turks, half of my proven Albino Inermediate Alenquer Pair along with a Yellow Diamond. This is crazy. It seems like its just a waiting game for all of them to die. Almost seems inhumane, not to mention my wife isnt to happy having 46 dead fish in our freezer. A pic of todays casualties is below.

Bob

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-10-09.jpg

MSD
12-10-2009, 12:34 PM
Some sponsors QT a week without problems..the longer you sit on fish the more it eats into your profits..

With problems like this you won't have to worry about profits, who would ever buy from you????

Pay now (quarantine), or pay later (out of business), the choice is obvious.

moik
12-10-2009, 12:55 PM
What kind of compensation would satisfy any of you in this matter??? I could not even phathom what would make me happy at the end of all this..Was there any determination on what this disease is/was???? Very scarey to wittness it,,let alone be in this situation..I am very sorry to see anyone have to endure this..My deepest apologies/Respect for those in this crisis. Hold your chin up high and things can only get better from here....

MSD
12-10-2009, 01:05 PM
Nothing can undo the harm and hard work by Bob and Rod I agree, but in small claims court you can recover the monetary investment which seems trivial now but is a better remedy then the lost stock and money.

MFdiscus
12-10-2009, 01:20 PM
OMG!!!!! we are fairly new here and have spoking to james and mandy. they seem like nice people... Does anyone know yet what this disease is called? :confused:
we were going to order some of the fish from this shipment, kinda glad we didn't now... we only have about 50 fish total and some babies? i am crying just looking at BOB fish..:cry: i am going to put a tank in a whole nother part of the house away from my other tanks...
BOB- i am soooooo sorry, the fish in the freezer i would't be upset about, just looking at such beautiful fish dead and dying is killing me... i must go show some love to mine...:heart1: i can't imagine losing my fish that many fish at one time..
ROB- i hope that all works out for you...
we have order fish from MIke in ohio and i just love all of them, he was a wonderful person and hope to order more from him soon... :D:D
thank you CENTRAL OHIO DISCUS... XOXOX

moik
12-10-2009, 01:23 PM
I was just asking about what kind of compensation would satify those in this predicament..Me personally,,it would take alot more than replacing fish...If this disease wiped out discus this fast and brutally,,what aboutr all the equipment ...If it is airbourne then a reinfection could possibly reoccur..(sorry to be negative)Also it takes alot of time effort and LOVE to aquire a collection(years)like the ones pictured here..I am so sorry to see this happen to anyone,very sorry.
Nothing can undo the harm and hard work by Bob and Rod I agree, but in small claims court you can recover the monetary investment which seems trivial now but is a better remedy then the lost stock and money.

Cooldadddyfunk286
12-10-2009, 01:26 PM
I cant even look at this thread anymore, its getting me down in the dumps. Im sorry bob, rod, francis, everyone else. this sucks. Im sure you will all be compensated and will have a great 2010 with discus, those of you wanting to throw in the towel, please dont. I think a better idea would be to give it a bit of time, and start again, keeping it super small at first. I think I have enough discus on my plate already, Im going to stick with what I have for a while. I would hate to risk losing all of my fish. someone said earlier, its discouraging, but we deal in a hobby of (delicate) living things...this hobby is certainly full of highs and lows. but the lows pass, and the highs will always return, remember that!

keep your heads up guys, hopefully in a few weeks this will all be a bad memory and everyone can move on and improve on in 2010.

take it easy everybody!:o

MSD
12-10-2009, 01:26 PM
I agree Moik, you'd have to bleach all the tanks and stuff, I'd take a long hiatus if it was me. These guys are super dedicated though and we'll see how it affects them and how we can help.

moik
12-10-2009, 01:31 PM
If and when my WB/WS have fry,,I offer BOBTOOLS as many as he wants N/C..I have seen in the past that he likes those strains..Maybe some other strains that I have will have fry too and can be offered for the same....I also have some aquarium misc. stuff that can be used to get started up again..

moik
12-10-2009, 01:37 PM
I do not think bleach will kill this bug..Me personally would not take the chance, would you?
I agree Moik, you'd have to bleach all the tanks and stuff, I'd take a long hiatus if it was me. These guys are super dedicated though and we'll see how it affects them and how we can help.

Aquaben19
12-10-2009, 01:41 PM
I was just asking about what kind of compensation would satify those in this predicament..Me personally,,it would take alot more than replacing fish...If this disease wiped out discus this fast and brutally,,what aboutr all the equipment ...If it is airbourne then a reinfection could possibly reoccur..(sorry to be negative)Also it takes alot of time effort and LOVE to aquire a collection(years)like the ones pictured here..I am so sorry to see this happen to anyone,very sorry.


I agree with moik. We have all seen pictures of Bobs healthy fish and what he had going. He had a legit breeding program going. To see it devastated is a shame.

And yes, all they can/will compensate is the fish. No way to compensate all the time he has put into his program or the time he is going to spend disinfecting everything. Thats a TON of work.. i know I would scrub everything at least twice with a bleach solution.. then I would still be nervous.

Bob and Rod, I wish you all the best, just know you have a great community of people here and there are many willing to help out..

Ben

mmorris
12-10-2009, 02:11 PM
I highly recommend one of you get one sick fish to a lab quickly. You might want to pm Al for contact info for one. He gave me the info once but I don't think I have it any longer. You need to know what caused this.

rickztahone
12-10-2009, 02:14 PM
I do not think bleach will kill this bug..Me personally would not take the chance, would you?

bleach is one of the things that will pretty much kill anything. while i agree with you on everything else Vince. this was a devastating loss for everyone but seeing all of Bob's dead discus is a real grim thing to witness. All of us in this SD community are more than willing to help out in any way possible here, be it actual fish stock, equipment like Vince mentioned. I know that this might be hard to think about now since the losses are still going on but in time when you decide you want to do it again we are all here for you all affected by this bad experience. I'm almost at a point of speechlessness....doesn't happen quite often...

BOBT00LS
12-10-2009, 02:22 PM
I have to say that I am very touched by the outpouring of compassion that I am feeling from the members that have posted. What an outstanding group of people, most of whom we have never in person, but feel close to like an extended family.

Moik you remember my addiction to White Butterfly's. Very good memory on your part and thanks for the offer although I believe its going to be quite awhile before I get started up again. All I have been told is thats its some type of bacterial virus. The discus start shedding thier slime coat because they think they can get rid of it that way although its the worst thing they can do as it only makes them more suseptable. Eventually the discus get very bloated which means it is now not only external but internal. Very quickly after that they die. Im no expert on sick discus but a novice at that. The only other time since keeping discus that I had a sickness was several years ago with 6 discus I purchased from a someone who was a sponsor at the time but it was contained to only those 6 fish. As far as sanitizing the tanks, filters, etc, I dont feel safe doing that because should I start up again, If any of this germ is left behind I can put myself through this all again. I will speak to some very educated people in this hobby for their advice. So with that said, If I do start again, as of now, Im thinking I may have to acquire all new equipment. Who knows what the future brings.

Bob

yim11
12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
... to deliver the medicine to try save our stock. ...received meds from Mr. Chen

My sincere sympathy to everyone involved in this. I hope this gets worked out as best as possible.

Can anyone advise what the medicine being sent is? And did it help? This would be good info to have in case something like this happens again.

Thanks,
-jim

mmorris
12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
A bacterial virus?

BOBT00LS
12-10-2009, 02:35 PM
A bacterial virus?

Yes Martha, thats what I have been told but who knows.

Yimm11- We are still waiting on the meds that James has shipped out. Its something called BKC and I was instructed to use it along with Furan2 by James.

Bob

Aquaben19
12-10-2009, 02:41 PM
Yes Martha, thats what I have been told but who knows.

Yimm11- We are still waiting on the meds that James has shipped out. Its something called BKC and I was instructed to use it along with Furan2 by James.

Bob

He should have overnighted(if thats a term) the meds... every hour past is indeed a wasted hour... how many of the fish could have possibly been saved..

Ben

yikesjason
12-10-2009, 02:42 PM
I have already offered encouragement to James and Mandy privately, but I wanted to do so publicly as well. This is a terrible blow to them as well as their supplier. As bad as this is for those who have bought and been infected by their stock, it must be just as bad or worse for their own stock. In no way do I mean to down play the loss and pain to the customers, nor that Fish King should not or will not compensate everyone for their losses, but these totals are adding up fast. I just hope that their supplier will back them up.

Best of luck to James and Mandy, as well as their customers.

Discusgeo2
12-10-2009, 03:03 PM
Bob sorry to hear this is happening to you and I hope you take nothing from the sick fish room to the area where your other Discus are.

I had something simular happen to me years back and after trying different meds nothing work and I tossed all my Discus in the freezer and quit. I bleached all my tanks, put my heaters all in one tank and poured the entire gallon of bleach in that tank and let them sit all weekend. I had to bleach my stands, tear apart my air pump and wipe it down and replace the filters in it, just the entire setup. I threw every piece of equipment in the garbage including my fish nets, airlines, towels, thermometer, filters just about everything I could carry. All I had left was the stands, tanks, heaters and Air pump everything else was trashed.

To clean it all up I got a bug sprayer and mix water with bleach and using a fine mist I did the walls, ceilings, stands, ect. I left nothing untouched and let it all dry out. Did not have any Discus for over a year.

I hope everything turns out well for you and the road to recovery comes soon. I do not understand why the meds were not sent express mail, waiting 7 days for meds are worthless now.

George

yim11
12-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Yim11- We are still waiting on the meds that James has shipped out. Its something called BKC and I was instructed to use it along with Furan2 by James.Bob

Think that is benzalkonium chloride, David mentions it in Moiks thread here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpost.php?p=594055&postcount=40

Hopefully it does the trick.

Thanks,
-jim

MSD
12-10-2009, 06:12 PM
I do not think bleach will kill this bug..Me personally would not take the chance, would you?

I would have to buy new equipment which means a very slow recovery after a long hiatus.

stephcps
12-10-2009, 06:53 PM
This absolutely heart breaking. I'm not sure if I would be able to keep going in the hobby personally. It is quite devastating. How do you compensate someone for years of care?

I'm very sorry all of you are going through this. Wish there was something I could do.

Steph

Eddie
12-10-2009, 08:03 PM
This absolutely heart breaking. I'm not sure if I would be able to keep going in the hobby personally. It is quite devastating. How do you compensate someone for years of care?

I'm very sorry all of you are going through this. Wish there was something I could do.

Steph

You start all over, it is tough and the losses are irreplaceable but the passion for the fish will always be strong.

The disease is cannot be narrowed down to a specific issue but a combination of issues. Like a virus, opening the fish up to any and all possible problems, parasite/bacteria.

I cannot believe the amount of fish Bob lost. I lost over 30 this year to the same but saved alot. The stress is overwhelming and I feel for everyone who is affected by this issue.

Wishing the best,

Eddie

Elite Aquaria
12-10-2009, 08:06 PM
Rob and Simply Members,

I am very sorry about everyone's loss. I was trying to merge the two threads and managed to delete one before the merge was completed. Anyway I was able to save the info that was different in the other thread. Sorry for any inconvenience.

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:12 PM
Eddie

If anybody is still waiting for meds, try and pick up Furanase (Nifurpirinol) and Neomycin Sulfate. Use them together along with a low stocking density in the tank. Really sad to read and see the affects of this outbreak. Hoping everything works out. Almost forgot, rubbing alcohol in spray bottle to sterilize the tanks.

All the best,
Eddie

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:20 PM
TRUC10507


Originally Posted by DISCUS USA Some sponsors QT a week without problems..the longer you sit on fish the more it eats into your profits...

How about 3 weeks to 4 weeks QT? Is that better than what happen now?

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:37 PM
ifixoldhouses

wow sad to hear, gonna take QT to a whole new level, can't even be in the same house, maybe quarantine em out in the outbuilding, man I've never heard of a airborne disease.

Brian

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:41 PM
TRUC10507

Have anyone try the potassium permangante yet?

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:42 PM
seanyuki

Hi Eddie..... and I have treated these infected discus with 1. PP bath & Salt2. Furan 23. Benzalkonium Chloride & Acriflavine and no improvements.......my white base discus now becoming black base discus lol......no more meds for them UFN.cheersFrancis


Originally Posted by Eddie If anybody is still waiting for meds, try and pick up Furanase (Nifurpirinol) and Neomycin Sulfate. Use them together along with a low stocking density in the tank. Really sad to read and see the affects of this outbreak. Hoping everything works out. Almost forgot, rubbing alcohol in spray bottle to sterilize the tanks.

All the best,Eddie

CheersFrancis

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:55 PM
moik UFN,,please explain


Originally Posted by seanyuki Hi Eddie..... and I have treated these infected discus with 1. PP bath & Salt2. Furan 23. Benzalkonium Chloride & Acriflavine and no improvements.......my white base discus now becoming black base discus lol......no more meds for them UFN.

cheersFrancis

************************************************** *******
Today, 05:58 PM
Eddie
Originally Posted by seanyuki Hi Eddie..... and I have treated these infected discus with 1. PP bath & Salt2. Furan 23. Benzalkonium Chloride & Acriflavine and no improvements.......my white base discus now becoming black base discus lol......no more meds for them UFN.cheersFrancis

Yes Francis, I know....thats why I posted Nifurpirinol combined with Neomycin Sulfate. Try it and you will see.

Eddie

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-10-2009, 08:10 PM
anyone know the origin of this virus? is it from natures wild or breeding facilities. Are they affecting wild discus in there habitats or just domestics and fishhouses? also is it a epidemic for all fish or just Discus. (Overseas)?

roclement
12-10-2009, 08:13 PM
As far as I know and also the topic of this thread, it is contained to fish from Fishking, any other possible source should be discussed in a separate thread please as I don't want this thread to get derailed to much...

Thanks for understanding!

Rod

roclement
12-10-2009, 09:12 PM
at almost 8:00pm eastern standard time I got the phone call while still at work...all my fish are dead....I should say that the ones in the tank affected are dead...

here is the tally:

5 x 2 inch Standing Egg BD (the original fish from Fishking - $100 (already refunded)
11 x 3.5 inch Rose Reds - $385 (estimated replacement price)
2 x 3.5 inch Red Pigeons from Kenny - $84

Total for fish lost - $569 ($100 already re-funded)

Incidentals:

3 Hydro Sponges - $36
Airline tubing - $5
2 x 5gal buckets - $12
Python Hose - $30 (?)
2 air pumps - $40
55 gal tank/lids and stand - $400 (?)
Stealth heater - $24
Digital Thermometer - $12
Fish net - $10

who knows what else...time lost? frustration? whatever...

Incidentals Total $569


SO what is fair here??? What is a fair refund for my troubles? Fishking can decide...

My paypal account: rclement71@gmail.com

Tomorrow I am home from work all day and will post pictures...I know I will need them

Rod Clement

seanyuki
12-10-2009, 10:07 PM
Hi Moik.....Until further notice(UFN) I will not treat the sick discus any more meds since they are not eating at all and being very weak...... .only 9 discus left plus those 6 new ARGDs from James(fishkingdiscus) and been very stressful this week for me and my fish......considering giving up the hobby:o

moik
12-10-2009, 10:15 PM
I know how gutt wrenching and depressing it can get..The discus hobby is like being Bi-Polar,,the lows are really low ,but the highs are super high fantastic..Take a break and come back to the hobby..It is in your blood for good...You only live once,live with a smile on your face..
Hi Moik.....Until further notice(UFN) I will not treat the sick discus any more meds since they are not eating at all and being very weak...... .only 9 discus left plus those 6 new ARGDs from James(fishkingdiscus) and been very stressful this week for me and my fish......considering giving up the hobby:o

yim11
12-10-2009, 10:20 PM
I know how gutt wrenching and depressing it can get..The discus hobby is like being Bi-Polar,,the lows are really low ,but the highs are super high fantastic..Take a break and come back to the hobby..It is in your blood for good...You only live once,live with a smile on your face..

Maybe don't think of this as a end but as an opportunity for something new! New fish, different fish!

HTHs,
-jim

rht1231
12-10-2009, 11:03 PM
Oh my gosh, sorry for everyone's losses! This makes my problematic fish from Fishking like child's play. I too have very skittish fish from Fish King. I've gone through clout, metro, prazi, levamisole and they are still skittish, but alive (not sure if this is good or bad). I actually went to pick them up and requested that I saw them eat. But when I got there, the fish were already conveniently packed in a box. They did acclimate ok at home, but would not eat anything except CBW. In fishking's defense, they did offer me money back granted I return the fish alive. It was too much hassle anyway so I decided to keep the fish. What to do now? Does my fish have some sort of nasty, incurable disease?

Ryan

vss
12-11-2009, 06:59 AM
By far seems there is no drug confirmed to be effective against discus virus. Instead of medicating the fish, I guess the best we can do is to keep the water super clean and soft, water temperature high, and our fingers crossed...The only thing we can really count on now is their own immune system. It takes time for them to get through the virus' life span. Any means to avoid stressing the fish, like salt or slow W/C might also help a little. Best wishes to everyone who's suffering from this disease...:(

-Xiaofei

Scribbles
12-11-2009, 07:10 AM
Wow! I just read this thread and can't believe the sheer magnitude of the losses. My sincerest sympathys to all who are dealing with this problem.

Chris

roclement
12-11-2009, 09:48 AM
my morning e-mail from James:

"Hi Rod,
Please take pics of the dead fish for Mr. Chen to find the matched ones for replacing.
Thank you.


James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA"

my reply

"James...I want no replacement from Mr. Chen, sorry but I will not put any more fish from him in my tanks, if he wants to make this right I want monetary compensation so I can purchase my fish from a source I trust.

rod"

Is there anyone here going through this or reading this that really, in their right mind believe that I will bring more fish from the same guy into my house??? It seems that this is going to be their way out of all of this...they are going to offer replacement fish, from the same source that caused all of this, and ignore any other losses for time, equipment, etc...and then go about their business as usual...all me especulations of course...maybe they will change their minds...let's wait and see...

rod

brewmaster15
12-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Hi everyone,

Just some general notes... This thread has really been heart wrenching for all to watch...I feel badly for all parties and I know all the comments here are for the most part Hobbyists that are trying to be supportive... and thats something special about our forum.

I think this thread needs to be exactly how it is and I really appreciate everyones comments here...but when I suggested to Rod to put it in this section I didn't think this issue was as wide spread and devastating..... :(

Because this disaster has hit so close to home I think we need to be supportive of these hobbyists and the seller... we will allow comments that fall into that role ....But I would ask you to not tar and feather the seller here... They have a long road ahead of them to deal with this issue....and as many of us that have been in this hobby a while know... these issues can arise.....many hobbyists and importers have been wiped out over the years by various illnesses.


I'd like to make a suggestion to those affected.... as theres been so much speculation on whats fair restitution.... I personally would not trust any fish that survive this... ... Something that goes thru a hatchery this fast and hard is almost certainly a virus..... antibiotics willnot work if thats the case....they may suppress and deal with secondary infections and the rest is up to fish..... will they be carriers if they survive and how long can theybe.. no one knows... theres some personal decisions that each affected hobbyist needs to make.

Biological speaking if this is viral.... its got a silver lining..virus need hosts....once the livestock is removed.....dispose of all sponges and filter media... and use bleach to sanitize everything else..... 10 % bleach for 20 mins is used in labs to sanitize virus..... replacing your tanks should not be necessary and has not been for othes that have had serious issues in the past.... just be sure all is clean and when you start up again... do so slowly and cautiously... use test fish from locals to you.

Once we all know the scope of this outbreak...I think people will come together as group here and help out too.... Thats something thats been done in the past here and I think as a community we can do that again....I know That I will try personally and thru this forum to do just that. I have been thru what these hobbyists are dealing with... and I'd hate for anyone to lose out on the joys of discus keeping over this tragedy.

-al

roclement
12-11-2009, 10:15 AM
as you can all see..here are my losses...the original blue diamonds...

the rose reds that died first...

the rest of the fish...actually more then what I had posted...I didn't count them all before posting...I also undersestimated their size as they are bigger then I tought...no worries...

Here is another propoasal for Fishking, don't send me money, just call Hans or Kenny and cut a deal with them so they can send me fish! That I would accept.

Rod

prolude006
12-11-2009, 10:33 AM
Great post Al, I didn't lose any fish but that makes me feel much better some how, hopefully the full range of our little community can come out of this closer and possibly better in the end.
It may be that people end up with some super discus they never would have acquired unless they had to start over.
Good luck to all.

mlov1022
12-11-2009, 10:35 AM
What a shame Rod, those Rose's were growing nicely. How are your wilds?

roclement
12-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Thanks Marc...

All my other fish are fine, just the ones in that room went dead...I'll start a post about my healthy fish later just to keep the spirits up!

Right now I am going to focus on cleaning the tank that got infected. I was told to use PP in the tank at a high dosage so verything dies in there, then drain the tank, clean water and carbon to remove any left over PP, cycle the tank and try again...I have a very generous offer to receive some fish to test out the tank with.

Any other ideas? I can always trash everything and forget about it...

rod

acroken
12-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Rod or any others who have lost fish during this, I will gladly send you some test fish once your tanks are sterilized with bleach and everything is cleaned.These discus are healthy and strong just not fitting into my plans at the moment.They are a cross between a Tony Tan spotted and a red Turk(parents are in attached photo).If anyone wants I can send you some at N/C. I just need to be clear on one thing. I will not be associated with any disease talk. These fish are raised by me and have never been ill. I feel for all who has lost fish due to this outbreak. In the late 80's I lost 20 tanks of discus to the same virus. It did not wipe me out at first as i was able to save a few tanks but after evaluating the devastation and getting the report back from the lab I started totally over. Let me know if there is anything i can do to help. I have some un used equipment i would give to anyone in need along with the test discus.
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss50/acroken/IMG_0394-1.jpg

roclement
12-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Kenny,

You are very kind on your offer, thank you and i will contact you later once my tank is sterilized.
Here's my plan...filters and airline tubing trash...

heater and thermometer inside tank and dump all water, scrumb the tank, stand, and lids, light fixture with white vinegar and a bleach solution. Then fill the tank and run with PP overdosed for a couple of days, then drain tank again, clean water and new filters, run carbon for a couple of days just to be safe all PP is removed, seed the filter from running healthy tank...then get some test fish from Acroken or Hans who has also kindly offered to help.

What do you all think?

I just wanted to pause here and thank everyone for the outpour of support in all of this, it is very much appreciated! I'll keep everyone posted on developments!

Rod

Discusgeo2
12-11-2009, 01:15 PM
Sorry everyone for your loses today and this is really a shame that so many folks have lost so many nice Discus.

I have to agree with Al on his comments that all the Fish King Discus you have that made it through this are carriers of this virus that wiped out a lot of Discus. You must destroy what you have left from them or never bring any more Discus into your plans. That is why I said in my previous post I placed all my Discus in the freezer and started over a year later.

Everyone that had these Discus is going to have to bleach your entire system and piece of equipment. Throw everything else out except tanks, heaters and Air pumps. Do not save any hoses, nets, sponge filters, ect you do not want to take the risk of one little bug lingering around.

Sorry if my words hurt some of you but it must be done if you want Discus from some place else down the road. I have been through it also and know what everyone is feeling today.

George

rickscics
12-11-2009, 01:36 PM
MY QUESTION IS; HAS ANYONE SENT A FISH TO A LAB?
Someone should contact Dr.Brian Aukes at National Fish Pharmaceuticals and see if he will assist. He usually answers the phone.
It is preferred to have a live infected fish to examine from what I understand.
I have some of Fish Kings stock from a previous order and they have been doing well. What a travesty this is for all involved.

BOBT00LS
12-11-2009, 01:38 PM
Rod or any others who have lost fish during this, I will gladly send you some test fish once your tanks are sterilized with bleach and everything is cleaned.These discus are healthy and strong just not fitting into my plans at the moment.They are a cross between a Tony Tan spotted and a red Turk(parents are in attached photo).If anyone wants I can send you some at N/C. I just need to be clear on one thing. I will not be associated with any disease talk. These fish are raised by me and have never been ill. I feel for all who has lost fish due to this outbreak. In the late 80's I lost 20 tanks of discus to the same virus. It did not wipe me out at first as i was able to save a few tanks but after evaluating the devastation and getting the report back from the lab I started totally over. Let me know if there is anything i can do to help. I have some un used equipment i would give to anyone in need along with the test discus.
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss50/acroken/IMG_0394-1.jpg


Kenny your a good guy and I knew it from the first time you came to my place. Im just very glad you got that Rose Red pair out of here before all this went down.

I suffered more losses last evening and this morning. I actually lost count by now. What I do know is that I have about 9 left. One good thing at the moment which I commend James for is that lines of communication is open and Mr Chen states that he will replace all lost discus. This offer is very acceptable as long as the fish come from a reputable source such as Hans or Kenny as Rod has stated. My total loss through all of this is $7000.00 on the low end. Lets hope all of this is settled soon so that we dont have this lingering on Christmas. Still no meds ?

Bob


http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-1011-09004.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-1011-09001.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-1011-09002.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-1011-09003.jpg

BOBT00LS
12-11-2009, 01:49 PM
MY QUESTION IS; HAS ANYONE SENT A FISH TO A LAB?
Someone should contact Dr.Brian Aukes at National Fish Pharmaceuticals and see if he will assist. He usually answers the phone.
It is preferred to have a live infected fish to examine from what I understand.
I have some of Fish Kings stock from a previous order and they have been doing well. What a travesty this is for all involved.


Rick my entire life has been consumed lately with water changes to help the cause here. Throw work and Christmas shopping into the mix and there just enough time in the day. Im exhausted both mentally and physically. Only 9 or so discus left here, that if they survive, will be carriers and will eventually have to be culled. I think we all know who should be making a visit to the Lab. The only one making out through all of this is the water company, many thousands of gallons of water later.

Bob

Cooldadddyfunk286
12-11-2009, 01:59 PM
bob, Im so sorry. If there is any way I can help, I will. I dont have much, but I would love to lend a hand when the time comes, maybe we can get a little paypal donation pool started eventually...just looking at these pictures is tearing me apart.

Al had a good post back there. I think as a community, we will all come together and lend a hand in any way possible, thats what friends are for. plus its the holidays.:o

take care everyone.

rickscics
12-11-2009, 02:05 PM
PLEASE TAKE NOTE; I do not have sick fish however I have taken it upon myself to contact Dr. Brian Aukes a few moments ago. He is confident he can help with this issue as he has dealt with Discus problems like this. Since I do not have sick fish I can not be a reliable source to explain to him what is occurring. Please one of you with the sick fish call Dr. Brian now. He is expecting your call. Dr. Brian, 1-520-298-7814

fishorama
12-11-2009, 02:09 PM
I feel just awful for you guys. I've lost a tankful of fish a few times over the years but nothing like this complete devastation. You have my deepest sypathy.

Nancy

rickscics
12-11-2009, 02:31 PM
From what I have been reading herein it appears no one really knows what this illness is for sure. It may not be a virus. One should not assume without
proof. Once again I suggest getting professional help in this instance. Call Dr.Brian Aukes. number in my previous post. Good luck to all involved. Rick

BOBT00LS
12-11-2009, 02:42 PM
PLEASE TAKE NOTE; I do not have sick fish however I have taken it upon myself to contact Dr. Brian Aukes a few moments ago. He is confident he can help with this issue as he has dealt with Discus problems like this. Since I do not have sick fish I can not be a reliable source to explain to him what is occurring. Please one of you with the sick fish call Dr. Brian now. He is expecting your call. Dr. Brian, 1-520-298-7814

To all of those affected by this, I just spoke with Dr. Brian as Rick has suggested. After discussing the symptoms with him, he recommends treating the tank of sick discus with Quinine Sulfate, dosed one time and do not do any water changes for 10 days. Do not feed throughout this treatment. After the 10 days he recommends treating with a medicated food that contains Metro for another 10 days. If they will not accept the Metro food then they should be treated with Pericide X which is only available through him. He can be reached at the phone number listed by Rick.

Hope this helps you all out. These are not my recommendations but that of Dr Brian.

Bob

roclement
12-11-2009, 02:51 PM
From what I have been reading herein it appears no one really knows what this illness is for sure. It may not be a virus. One should not assume without
proof. Once again I suggest getting professional help in this instance. Call Dr.Brian Aukes. number in my previous post. Good luck to all involved. Rick

Rick,

Thank you for the contact and the offer...at this time I have no more fish to send...I do hope that someone that has fish still living and is closer to the Dr. can go visit him and find out what the h**l this is since it may happen again...

All I know at this point is that the disease came with some wild discus that weren't properly quarentined at Mr. Cheng's facilty and spread to all his stock...it is airborne, fish can be carriers without showing symptoms, and just like Al said, once contaminated fish should not be trusted with the rest of your fish.

I spoke with James this morning and he assures me that Mr. Cheng is going to do the right thing. I did make it clear that I will not accept replacement coming from him and warehoused by James. There are many trustworthy distributors here in this forum that I would trust to get fish from so it's up to him to make us an offer, or just compensate via cash.

Al, I will follow your advice on the bleach in the tank, I only saw your post after I had made my post. I already ordered new sponges and will get some fish to test the tank after treatment.

I feel for Bob who lost much more then me and for those that PM me and are still struggling with sick fish, best of luck!

Rod

P.S. AS of now...no medication has arrived...not that it matters any more...

BOBT00LS
12-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Seems as though its very difficult to find the Quinine Sulfate locally although I spoke with Dr. Brian once more and he carries it. The prices are as follows:

25 grams $18.60 treats approximately 300 gallons
50 grams $35.30 treats approximately 600 gallons
100 grams $65.95

Keep in mind he stated as I mentioned earlier thats it should be dosed one time at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon although the directions on the product may state differently.

Bob

seanyuki
12-11-2009, 03:04 PM
You can obtain Paracide-X & Quinine Sulfate from this site too.
Since the discus been treated with so many medications and better let it's own immune system fight it......been talking to discus hobbyists in Vancouver and hoping to find a fish veterinarian to diagnose the discus b4 using any other sort of medications.


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products4.html

BOBT00LS
12-11-2009, 03:08 PM
You can obtain Paracide-X & Quinine Sulfate from this site too.
Since the discus been treated with so many medications and better let it's own immune system fight it......been talking to discus hobbyists in Vancouver and hoping to find a fish veterinarian to diagnose the discus b4 using any other sort of medications.


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products4.html


Thanks for the website Francis. Thats where Dr. Brian that I spoke with is from.

Bob

mlov1022
12-11-2009, 03:58 PM
bob, Im so sorry. If there is any way I can help, I will. I dont have much, but I would love to lend a hand when the time comes, maybe we can get a little paypal donation pool started eventually...just looking at these pictures is tearing me apart.

Al had a good post back there. I think as a community, we will all come together and lend a hand in any way possible, thats what friends are for. plus its the holidays.:o

take care everyone.I feel the same way. Count me in!!

mikel
12-11-2009, 04:26 PM
Wow, I just finished reading this awful threat, and I am so saddened by this horrific series of events. It really put in perspective how quickly a situation can turn bad, and from that to worse. I hope Fishking and associates will do the right thing. mike :(((

Discus-Hans
12-11-2009, 07:01 PM
All I know at this point is that the disease came with some wild discus that weren't properly quarentined at Mr. Cheng's facilty and spread to all his stock...it is airborne, fish can be carriers without showing symptoms, and just like Al said, once contaminated fish should not be trusted with the rest of your fish.


I don't think, or never saw, something like this coming from wilds, hard to believe (if they came direct from the Amazone) I think the other way around makes more sense to me.

I think Fishking USA should contact Dr.Brian Aukes (very knowledgeable) and take care to ship some fish to them for testing.

Bob & Rod, clean out the tanks after this all is done, come over, we have dinner and talk,

Hans

I wanted to post a link to what I posted not so long ago but I think I don't need too.

Mello
12-11-2009, 07:08 PM
I got some positive news. Fishking has refunded me for some of my losses (2 Fishking BlueDiamond's). They are still determining how to compensate me for my other fishes who got the virus which wasn't bougth from them. (I think everyone that are affected are all still waiting) Hopefully it's a good sign for all of us who get affected by this. They are still awaiting for Mr. Chen's decision on how to deal with this matter. Let's just hope that he does the right thing for all of us.

shime
12-11-2009, 07:15 PM
Same for me. James has refunded me 2 wild F1 greens. Still waiting on what they will be deciding on.

roclement
12-11-2009, 10:58 PM
medicine got here tonight...almost like a bad joke...

rod

Eddie
12-11-2009, 11:08 PM
medicine got here tonight...almost like a bad joke...

rod


Rod, does the medicine state what the ingredients are? Every treatment should state the type of chemical and the amount, for accurate/proper dosage. Just curious

Eddie

shime
12-11-2009, 11:20 PM
medicine got here tonight...almost like a bad joke...

rod

UPS lost my shipment of meds....
sigh

roclement
12-11-2009, 11:51 PM
This is the most disturbing thing to date...this e-mail exchange was forwarded to me tonight by someone who is concerned...they e-mailed Fishking looking for fish and this is their response....they intend to continue to sell fish as soon as they can clean them...infected fish!

James told me that he would not sell any of these fish and was also depending on Mr. Cheng for some money since he is loosing his business and would not sell sick fish...

I believe at this time that James is buying time with here by promesing re-funds while he "cleans" his fish, and makes some money back so it is not a total loss...

After all that is happening, there may still be people out there buying fish from this outfit...sad!

Please read from the bottom of the post up to get the right order of this exchange...I omited the name of the person making the inquires.

Rod






----- Original Message -----
From: Fish King Discus USA
To: XXXXXX
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Discus


Hi XXXXXX,


It will be up to 10 to 14 days depends on the fish condition.
Thank you again for asking.


James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA
fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com
www.fishkingdiscususa.com







On 2009/12/11, at 上午 9:06, XXXXXXX wrote:


Thank you for the list, I think see a bunch of discus that I would like.

I also will get some discus from a local guy here and want to fill my tank before Christmas.

When do you think those discus are good to go??

XXXXXXX

----- Original Message -----
From: Fish King Discus USA
To: XXXXXXXX
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: Discus


Hi XXXXXX,


It's our pleasure that you found us!!! :)
We do have plenty of fish list available here, they are just still under quarantine observation.


Here is the list:
Albinism Chessboard4"

80.00
Albinism Chessboard5"
140.00
Albinism Super Golden3.5"
56.00
Albinism Leopard Skin AA 4"

117.00
Albinism LSS AA 4"
181.00

Albino Super Golden 4" $40 Albino Red Golden Diamond 4"
540.00
Albinism White Platinum 4"
130.00
Albinism Red Melon 5"
188.00
Bulldog Face Blue Diamond 4"
84.00
Fish King Super Star L.S.S 2.5"

54.00
Fish King Super Star3.5"
112.00
Golden Melon Discus 4"
75.00
Golden Ring Leopard 3"
54.00
Golden Ring Leopard 4"
99.00
Golden L.S.S 3.5"
95.00
Hi Body Red Map3"
46.00
Hi Body Red Map4"
95.00
Leopard(A)3"
32.00
Leopard 3"

32.00
Leopard 3"

44.00
Leopard A 4"

59.00
Leopard Snake Skin A 2.5"
35.00
Leopard Skin 4"
64.00
LSS 5"
90.00
Leopard Snake Skin (Pair)NO2
580.00
Leopard Snake Skin (Pair)NO3(Hi body)
580.00
Mount Snow Leopard (AA) 4"
92.00
Red Golden Diamond 3"
55.00
Red Diamond Turquoise 3"
40.00
Red 3"

16.50
Red Eye Blue Diamond 3"
15.00
Super Hi Body Blue Diamond 4"
68.00
Super Hi Body Blue Diamond 4.5"
100.00
Super Hi Body Blue Diamond 5"
107.00
Snow White 3"
15.00
Wild Inanu Royal Blue 5"
200.00
Yellow Diamond 2.5"
32.00


Please let us know if you have more questions.


Thank you very much,

James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA
fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com
www.fishkingdiscususa.com







On 2009/12/10, at 下午 10:15, XXXXX wrote:


Hi,

I just found your home page and all I can say is wauwwwwwwww

I want to start with Discus and I think I want to spend all my Christmas money on them lol

Can you please send me a stock and price list,

Best regards,

XXXXXXX

roclement
12-11-2009, 11:53 PM
Eddie the medication is a clear liquid in a generic little food jar with no name or instructions...

rod

poconoboss
12-12-2009, 12:06 AM
.....My total loss through all of this is $7000.00 on the low end. .....


Holy cow!

I could never imagine this happening, you must be sick to your stomach.

So sorry. :(

Eddie
12-12-2009, 12:15 AM
Eddie the medication is a clear liquid in a generic little food jar with no name or instructions...

rod

THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS!!! All chemicals must have safety conditions as well as appropriate dosage instructions/details. :(

Eddie

lemondiscus
12-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Ive been reading the thread for the past 2 days and have been horrified by the losses due to this mysterious illness! I am sorry for everyone and their losses including Fish King, Bob, Rod and all others as there are many more sides to what is happening here.

I agree with Hans and a few others that a live infected specimen needs to be sent for examination and maybe even some post mortem bodies as well. Unfortunately illnesses and disease outbreaks are a part of any form of live animal trade and collecting including cats, dogs, birds and anything else alive...

Apart from the monitary loss here, I believe that if pulled together properly the answers to what caused this will be found. We could possibly take a tradgedy like this and make a blessing out of it by learning... maybe a cause will be found... maybe a treatment will be found... lots of big maybes that dont fix the situation at hand but I am one of the younger generation of fish collectors and I have children.... to use something like this to help the future of Discus keepers will be a blessing in the end!

I truely beleive the answers are out there and any problem can be solved (again it wont fix the situation at hand, maybe just prevent it from happening again....)

Everyone, hold your heads up!

mmorris
12-12-2009, 12:35 AM
It's all such a nightmare. This might be a good time to investigate your legal options.

Dkarc@Aol.com
12-12-2009, 12:48 AM
Man I am so sorry everyone involved had to endure such illness problems.

Usually when fish get sick soon after being shipped it is from only a few different causes. Columnaris, Aeromonas Sp, or even a parasite/bacterial problem are to blame. From my quick reading through the whole thread, it sounds like most who have sick/dead fish recieved them in poor shape (leaking bags, cold, little water, etc). Any disease is opportunistic in nature and going through a rough shipment is cause enough for the fish to get sick. By the way the fish get sick and how quickly they die, I would bet an Aeromonas type infection. Only way to know however is to submit live fish to a diagnostic lab. If anyone has any infected live fish remaining, I would HIGHLY suggest sending them off for necropsy and lab work. It may not save your stock, but it could save others.

-Ryan

BOBT00LS
12-12-2009, 12:50 AM
WOW ! I have been hanging in there giving James or Mr Chen the benefit of the doubt that he will do the right thing here. Now I see he plans on shipping out fish which more then likely were the sick ones which he medicated. He promised he would not sell any discus, so if he has not been truthful about that then what else has he not been truthfull about. Im a patient man and try to conduct myself in a gentleman like manner but everyone has there limits. Im sure James has spoken with Mr Chen by now and has a plan which has not been conveyed to those affected by this or if there is a plan at all. I emailed James and gave him 24 hours to get back to me with a solid resolution or matters will be taken into my own hands just as Martha stated in her post. Tomorrow Im starting to sanitize tanks in order to restock, with or without a resolution. This forum is about people sharing a common interest and creating relationships where everyone seems to help each other out but not screwing them over. Thanks James ! Merry Christmas !

Bob

April
12-12-2009, 01:18 AM
ive been reading..very sorry to hear about everyones troubles. 3 of the people involved up in canada are my friends. so ive seen and heard about it first hand. i also know what the medicine is. .its this. http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/phar/BENZALKonIUM%20CHLORIDE.htm

a customer of mine came in who is a pharmacist...he todl me its the preserving base for eye drops. so i did look on a bottle of eye drops..sure enough..its listed as the base for the eye drops.
they have powders..which are discus meds they sell . perhaps they mixed some up into solution..and sent up little bottles to each person.
http://www.fishkingdiscususa.com/Medication.html
my other friend also was going to buy discus...but he heard about the problems..so cancelled.
i remember when cary had problems with all his dead fish . his was chlora vibrio and other things..transferrable to humans. thats why he had to cull all of his. his were from thailand and it comes from using ground water.
anytime someone has major spreading discus disease..its always a good idea to get them tested by a lab so you know what your dealing with. id like to hear what the outcome is..then everyone knows who are involved if they do need to destroy the rest of their fish or if they can be cured eventually. at least know what meds to use.

rickztahone
12-12-2009, 01:28 AM
i strongly agree with Ryan here, necropsy seems to be the only way. i'm sure they charge for those services, and i would also add that to the total finincial tally...my heart goes out to all of you, especially you Bob, i'm sorry buddy.

roclement
12-12-2009, 09:23 AM
April,

You are 100% correct, all stock should be culled...if anyone read my post a couple of pages back, they are promessing to ship fish in 10 days again!!! They plan os shipping these fish out again!!!!! That's not responsible, that's criminal! Sending known disease carrying fish out to someone and charging them would be criminal. A mistake I understand and can deal with, this now is just ill intentioned and greedy.

Rod

brewmaster15
12-12-2009, 10:37 AM
I'm very disturbed by that email I have an original copy that was sent to me as well.. ...... When I spoke with James I strongly suggested that he not sell anymore fish from this shipment.... and James indicated that he would not and that he would be taking a break for a few months because he's relocating.

I feel that any fish on that shipment is just too "hot" to sell, especially since no one even knows what ths issue is. I can not justify allowing a sponsor to sell fish from stock that has caused so much hardship to members here. One more wiped out hobbyist is one too many.

When a sponsor comes on board here I try my best to gauge how they will do here and if they can provide what our hobbyists need and want...if They appear to be able to...They are given an opportunity to make a name for themselves in this hobby on Simply.....and build a relationship of trust.,,They are required to act in an ethical fashion.... and treat Hobbyist's fairly. I go out of my way to work with sponsors and help them as I can... but ultimately what they do with their business and reputation is their decision.... and what I do with SimplyDiscus is mine.

I am sorry to say that Fishking Usa and their supplier Fish King Discus Farm (Mr. Chen Huan-kai) have really let this forum down, IMO. As much as I want to give sellers the benefit of doubt ....I am suspending their sponsorship until further notice.... At the conclusion of this terrible incident...I will decide if this becomes permanent....and if it does it will apply to both James and Mandy of fish king USA and and to all future sellers of Fish from Mr. Chen's Farm. That is all I Can do. That and hope that hobbyists affected and seller can come to a realistic and fair agreement on what should be done for compensation.

The integrity of this forum's sponsorship program is extremely important to the funding of this forum and to me on a very personal level...I spend hours on end trying to make this a safer place to buy livestock....and our sponsors work hard as well.. I am very sorry to all of them that have worked so hard.... Buying from a sponsor is no guarantee that something like this won't happen... and I know people generally feel safer buying from sponsors.... but when something like this does happens... it just really saddens me, and I have to save...depresses me greatly.:(:(:(:(:(:(

Thank you,
-Al

as an added note... It would be very useful to have someone physically examine these fish for pathogens... I would however like to stress that even then... You may not have an answer of what caused the outbreak as a primary cause...few pathology labs will spend the time and money on analyzing for virus ....fewer still have the capability to do so ...but should one lab identify the pathogen ...It would be a very very useful piece of information....and really only then can anyone recommend a medication that will work....otherwise its just a best guess, IMO.

seanyuki
12-12-2009, 10:40 AM
I will bringing in a live sample and frozen sample(discus) to the Animal Health Centre to do diagnostic testing, including Pathology, Bacteriology, etc this coming Monday and will share the reports/results here in Simply Discus Forum.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/

I have not heard from James at all since he has promised to talk to Mr.Chen in Taiwan.

Even the ARGDs from James(fishkingdiscususa) in this Nov shipment are the diease carriers.

the sick ARGDs photos

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12060001.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12060003.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12070018.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12070019.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12070020.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/th2009_12070021.jpg

I should be refunded since James provided me unhealthy fish instead just sending me medications to treat the fish.

Have lost these discus already
one Albino Snow White
One set of bredding pair of Albino Leopard & Albino Leopard Snakeskin
two Mt.Snow Leopards

and a bunch of sick discus in the house.

moik
12-12-2009, 11:05 AM
When the discus are imported they must have a clean bill of health certificate right????? Could this lead to bigger things with the border/customs people???? I am not real familar with all the " Fine lines " on importing livestock.. Just a thought of being helpful..

BOBT00LS
12-12-2009, 11:54 AM
Al, we all know you do your best for this forum so please dont take this upon yourself in the slightest bit. Every know and then a bad apple comes along and somebody has to pay the price. I happened to be one of them but thats ok. It may take some time but I will have the last owrd with FishKing. I wont let this situation bring me down as my tanks are all broken down and sitting in a bleach bath as we speak. I will be up and running by Christmas and start rebulding to where I was in this hobby. Enough damage has been caused by FishKing and I wont let them also take away a hobby that has become a part of my life.
I sent the following email to James last evening and still I have not received a response although I did receive a PayPal refund for the ONE infected discus they had sent to me. Attached to the PayPal refund was this note :
We just reviewed the whole list of your dead fish now. So here is your money back!
I emailed them at least 10 hours prior to them stating they just received my list of losses and they state they just received it now. Had I not questioned where the refund for the fish they sent me was like others had received, would they have sent it on their own ? Who knows. They have about 12 hours left to get back to me. Before I get the ball rolling legally.
I would like to thank everyone for their support throughout this. You are all an exceptional group of people.

Bob


Fri, Dec 11, 2009 11:35 pm

Hello James,

I am at a total loss of words here. You stated that you were not selling discus from your place any longer only to find out that you plan on shipping again soon. Rod posted this evening a trail of emails between you and someone where you sent them a price list and said your discus will be ready to go in 10 or so days. Are these the discus you planned on sending me ? You lied about not selling the discus so who knows what else you have lied about. I also see you refunded for YOUR fish that people received sick. Where is my $200.00 ? I know you have spoken to Mr Chen by now so what is his plan ? I will accept cash or fish from Kenny, Hans, or Wayne (Elite Discus).thats it. If I do not hear from you with an answer within 24 hours I will be taking matters into my own hands. I do not trust at this point so I have to do what I need to do to protect myself.


Bob

moik
12-12-2009, 12:09 PM
I am stunned ..Bob do what you have to do...Do not wait for them (James/Mandy/ Mr. Chen)to make you happy..If they are not going to do what is right,then you make it right..I love your new found drive to get back into discus...Plane tickets do not cost all that much to make talking face to face happen..All my respect..Vince
Al, we all know you do your best for this forum so please dont take this upon yourself in the slightest bit. Every know and then a bad apple comes along and somebody has to pay the price. I happened to be one of them but thats ok. It may take some time but I will have the last owrd with FishKing. I wont let this situation bring me down as my tanks are all broken down and sitting in a bleach bath as we speak. I will be up and running by Christmas and start rebulding to where I was in this hobby. Enough damage has been caused by FishKing and I wont let them also take away a hobby that has become a part of my life.
I sent the following email to James last evening and still I have not received a response although I did receive a PayPal refund for the ONE infected discus they had sent to me. Attached to the PayPal refund was this note :
We just reviewed the whole list of your dead fish now. So here is your money back!
I emailed them at least 10 hours prior to them stating they just received my list of losses and they state they just received it now. Had I not questioned where the refund for the fish they sent me was like others had received, would they have sent it on their own ? Who knows. They have about 12 hours left to get back to me. Before I get the ball rolling legally.
I would like to thank everyone for their support throughout this. You are all an exceptional group of people.

Bob


Fri, Dec 11, 2009 11:35 pm

Hello James,

I am at a total loss of words here. You stated that you were not selling discus from your place any longer only to find out that you plan on shipping again soon. Rod posted this evening a trail of emails between you and someone where you sent them a price list and said your discus will be ready to go in 10 or so days. Are these the discus you planned on sending me ? You lied about not selling the discus so who knows what else you have lied about. I also see you refunded for YOUR fish that people received sick. Where is my $200.00 ? I know you have spoken to Mr Chen by now so what is his plan ? I will accept cash or fish from Kenny, Hans, or Wayne (Elite Discus).thats it. If I do not hear from you with an answer within 24 hours I will be taking matters into my own hands. I do not trust at this point so I have to do what I need to do to protect myself.


Bob

rickscics
12-12-2009, 01:03 PM
Al, we all know you do your best for this forum so please don't take this upon yourself in the slightest bit. Every know and then a bad apple comes along and somebody has to pay the price. I happened to be one of them but thats ok. It may take some time but I will have the last owrd with FishKing. I wont let this situation bring me down as my tanks are all broken down and sitting in a bleach bath as we speak. I will be up and running by Christmas and start rebulding to where I was in this hobby. Enough damage has been caused by FishKing and I wont let them also take away a hobby that has become a part of my life.
I sent the following email to James last evening and still I have not received a response although I did receive a PayPal refund for the ONE infected discus they had sent to me. Attached to the PayPal refund was this note :
We just reviewed the whole list of your dead fish now. So here is your money back!
I emailed them at least 10 hours prior to them stating they just received my list of losses and they state they just received it now. Had I not questioned where the refund for the fish they sent me was like others had received, would they have sent it on their own ? Who knows. They have about 12 hours left to get back to me. Before I get the ball rolling legally.
I would like to thank everyone for their support throughout this. You are all an exceptional group of people.

Bob


Fri, Dec 11, 2009 11:35 pm

Hello James,

I am at a total loss of words here. You stated that you were not selling discus from your place any longer only to find out that you plan on shipping again soon. Rod posted this evening a trail of emails between you and someone where you sent them a price list and said your discus will be ready to go in 10 or so days. Are these the discus you planned on sending me ? You lied about not selling the discus so who knows what else you have lied about. I also see you refunded for YOUR fish that people received sick. Where is my $200.00 ? I know you have spoken to Mr Chen by now so what is his plan ? I will accept cash or fish from Kenny, Hans, or Wayne (Elite Discus).thats it. If I do not hear from you with an answer within 24 hours I will be taking matters into my own hands. I do not trust at this point so I have to do what I need to do to protect myself.


Bob
I see you had been trying to get a response from James and it took a long time. I don't know if you are aware but James has a full time job and he may not be able to answer mail until evening. I'm not defending him Bob , just thought you might not know.
He also told me he was planning on relocating to
San Francisco area soon and would be suspending the Discus business until he got settled .
Have you talked with them on the phone? Maybe you are a bit too disturbed to talk at this point. Hope things improve. Are the nine others OK?

Spardas
12-12-2009, 01:17 PM
I truly have the deepest sympathy for everyone involved and truly hope that James & Mandy can come to their senses and act in favor for everyone affected by this.

Whether or not they can survive as a business in the end is less important than the integrity of the business now. People here in this forum have given the SD sponsors the benefit of the doubt that all actions are acted in good faith. However, if this matter is not resolved adequately, I feel that the members here can bring a strong case toward your business with several charges pertaining to breach of contract, be it bilateral or implied, etc; with intention to mislead or misrepresent; and can lead to promissory estoppels and much more. I’m no expert in law or have a grasp for Washington’s state statute; but I truly hope that James & Mandy will act soon and fulfill their promises.

James & Mandy, I’m actually thinking for all parties involved and find it best that FishKingFarm fulfill their obligation and their promises in providing quality and healthy stock to customers and that you will continue to do so in expediency and with quick resolve if a problem is to arise. All is not lost if you can act in the rightful manner now as you can slowly rebuild your reputation in the future. Not only that, this can be looked as a positive note if people here feel that your business is handling this matter correctly.

If Mr. Chen feel that he is not obliged to back you up in compensating everyone; then it will only hurt his business more. Bad news or negative reviews will spread like wildfire and not only will it affect his status here in the states but as well as everywhere in the world. The world is now very interdependent and connected. If not, his reputation as a breeder and a discus lover will be forever tarnished if he doesn’t set things right this time. I truly hope Mr. Chen will support his dealer in the USA through all of this.

Here are a couple of suggestions:
1) If Mr. Chen has other facilities aside from Taiwan that hasn’t been affected at all; he will need to prove it to the members affected here and ask if he can compensate them with these “clean” fish.
2) If this is not possible, Mr. Chen should then contact each members affected and ask them for a preferred source of discus and try to make a deal with them. I’m sure that Mr. Chen will be able to get them for a reasonable price if it were sponsors here on this site because I feel that they too are willing to help out.
3) If this too is not possible, I truly hope Mr. Chen will also take part in offering refunding those affected with monetary compensation.

Let me remind you that a business can only stay in business if it has good loyal customers. These people will not only bolster your reputation, but they are also a good source of marketing via words of mouth. Businesses that deal with live animals should also be even more considerate about how they handle issues. Who knows what pathogens certain species may carry and if there are new strains that may even affect humans.

I truly hope Mr. Chen will re-evaluate his choices and act in favor of everyone affected by this. One last thing I would like to say to Mr. Chen. Moderation and consideration in action, integrity and honor in promises, quality and assurance in customer service, and most importantly, love for the discus as a quality of life, not as a source of money alone.



I see you had been trying to get a response from James and it took a long time. I don't know if you are aware but James has a full time job and he may not be able to answer mail until evening. I'm not defending him Bob , just thought you might not know.


Having another full time job doesn't excuse one from improper handling of another job. It is a commitment that James & Mandy took upon themselves to provide healthy live stocks to people. I hope they understand this.

MQN

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-12-2009, 01:50 PM
I see you had been trying to get a response from James and it took a long time. I don't know if you are aware but James has a full time job and he may not be able to answer mail until evening. I'm not defending him Bob , just thought you might not know.
He also told me he was planning on relocating to
San Francisco area soon and would be suspending the Discus business until he got settled .
Have you talked with them on the phone? Maybe you are a bit too disturbed to talk at this point. Hope things improve. Are the nine others OK?

you have to be in their shoes to understand there frustrations. im sure if the beautiful discus u have now were wiped out you might be singing a different tune. Losing all those discus is like losing a part of yourself and all the hardwork you put into them would drive anyone nuts. I hope they get that part of them back and become whole again. If there is a fund we can donate to help these guys i would be willing to participate. After reading what has happened to all of you this just makes me cherish my discus more and now i want to go home from work and hug my discus

mmorris
12-12-2009, 02:23 PM
Small Claims Court is probably the easiest and cheapest way to go but a maximum amount of $3000 is recoverable in NJ. The laws vary from state to state, but I have some experience with how things are done in Ma. I paid $30 to file and papers were served immediately. If you go that route, file in the state you reside. In Ma, it is up to the sellers to meet your charges in court. If they fail to appear, it does not automatically mean you win. You still need to demonstrate that all the damage was caused by this purchase. It would be useful if you can find people who had complained to the seller of receiving sick fish before you received your purchase. Since the sellers are out-of-state, in Ma. the most that can happen by Small Claims Court is a black mark on their credit rating if you win and they fail to pay. The consequences of this will depend to a great extent on how their business is organized legally. If it is the business that receives the poor credit rating, because they are going out of business, they may not care. If the individuals receive the poor credit rating it may hinder their ability to reorganize under a different name. For those of you who develop more run-of-the-mill types of problems with suppliers, it is important to see whether you can reach an agreement with the supplier before presenting negative feedback. Suppliers sometimes, although not always, will prefer to go that extra mile rather than see their reputation damaged. This situation, IMO, is different. We, the hobbyist public, needed to be informed immediately of the hazzard. Best of luck, guys. My heart is with you.

BOBT00LS
12-12-2009, 02:42 PM
Small Claims Court is probably the easiest and cheapest way to go but a maximum amount of $3000 is recoverable in NJ. The laws vary from state to state, but I have some experience with how things are done in Ma. I paid $30 to file and papers were served immediately. If you go that route, file in the state you reside. In Ma, it is up to the sellers to meet your charges in court. If they fail to appear, it does not automatically mean you win. You still need to demonstrate that all the damage was caused by this purchase. It would be useful if you can find people who had complained to the seller of receiving sick fish before you received your purchase. Since the sellers are out-of-state, in Ma. the most that can happen by Small Claims Court is a black mark on their credit rating if you win and they fail to pay. The consequences of this will depend to a great extent on how their business is organized leagally. If it is the business that receives the poor credit rating, because they are going out of business, they may not care. If the individuals receive the poor credit rating it may hinder their ability to reorganize under a different name. For those of you who develop more run-of-the-mill types of problems with suppliers, it is important to see whether you can reach an agreement with the supplier before presenting negative feedback. Suppliers sometimes, although not always, will prefer to go that extra mile rather than see their reputation damaged. This situation, IMO, is different. We, the hobbyist public, needed to be informed immediately of the hazzard. Best of luck, guys. My heart is with you.

Wow Martha ! You know a little about everything dont you :) When all of this started, Rod and I both knew we would be jeopardizing our chances for compensation if we went public and informed those on this forum which Im sure has undergone the trickle down affect and is known of in many places besides here by now. It was in the best interest of fellow hobbyists that they be fully informed. If it stopped a few people many headaches by making a Fishking purchase, then it was all worth it. Myself, Rod and everyone else will recover. When all is said and done, we will have new discus in our tanks and we will always have the forum.


Bob

mmorris
12-12-2009, 02:45 PM
Wow Martha ! You know a little about everything dont you :) Bob

Don't know about that, Bob. Attach a motor to anything and I'm hopelessly lost. :o
I sincerely hope justice is served here, guys.

rickscics
12-12-2009, 02:50 PM
you have to be in their shoes to understand there frustrations. im sure if the beautiful discus u have now were wiped out you might be singing a different tune. Losing all those discus is like losing a part of yourself and all the hardwork you put into them would drive anyone nuts. I hope they get that part of them back and become whole again. If there is a fund we can donate to help these guys i would be willing to participate. After reading what has happened to all of you this just makes me cherish my discus more and now i want to go home from work and hug my discus

If you are speaking to me You misunderstand my statement and it's intent.
As I said "I 'am not defending them." They are not excused from their responsibility. I do understand the frustration completely as I have been in these shoes before and had similar experiences in the past. The "Tune I'm singing" is the same as everyone else here my friend. It was I that brought a possible alternative treatment solution to the table by speaking to Dr Brian Aukes which was later mentioned by Han's, as the place to go for help. I hope this clarifies my position. RIck

roclement
12-12-2009, 03:00 PM
All,

Bob and me would like to thank everyone for the kind offers of donations of fish, equipment, and livestock.

While the gesture is very much appreciated we would like to kindly decline as we both would like to take our time with this and move slowly, being selective of future stock and most importantly, make sure that all our tanks are ready for fish once again. Once we feel we are ready for fish, we will take Hans up on his offer for some test fish and move from there.

If anyone feels so compeled, I would encourage donations to this Forum as Simply is the only reason issues like this come to light and get dealt with. Had it not been for Al's support during all of this, I am sure that the outcome would be even worst than it already is.

This nightmare is far from over as none of the people involved have been able to save any fish, or has received any satisfactory answer from Fishking. They did re-fund everyone for the actual fish purchased but not for shipping, or any losses of already exisitng stock that became diseased and died or is dying.

As of this moment their USA Website is still active and as proven by the e-mail I posted previously, they seem to have no problems conducting their business...shame on them! I am very sorry for all the people affected and those whom we don't even know about since they are not members of this Forum.

Sincrely,

Rod Clement

fishkingdiscususa
12-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Just to clarify something here, we did not sell any fish and do not want to sell sick fish until they are completely recovered.

Local Simply hobbyists come to our showroom all the time, ask them if we ever sold any fish to them! We only sold people fish which is from our local wholesaler.

We were just providing customer service with the price list and telling Joanne the fish might be ready for 10-14 days, but not promised. What's wrong with that???
Plus, it's possible if we use the right medications, the fish will become healthy again. It's like when human beings got sick, just take some medicine and get healed in a week or two.

We still will be responsible for all the losses as we already sent all the pictures to Mr. Chen.

James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA

tcmemphisbbq
12-12-2009, 03:34 PM
This thread is brutally sad.....

For everyone involved, from the suppliers to the end buyers....I only have 8 discus and lost 3 about 4 months ago to learning curve of diseases and medication so I will not pretend to know the depth of loss you guys have gone through emotionally.

I do hope the initial supplier makes it right with everyone and hope fish king can rebuild thier trust with hobbyist over time, it was my understanding they had a really good reputation up till this, I am sure they have been in a panic this all started.

Spardas
12-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Plus, it's possible if we use the right medications, the fish will become healthy again. It's like when human beings got sick, just take some medicine and get healed in a week or two.


James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA

You have to understand that even if those fish do recover; are you 100% sure that they will not be carriers of whatever caused the outbreak in the first place? Also, how sure can you be that other discus never exposed to the infection will not get infected with these treated fish. That's the problem because I'm sure no one is willing to take the risk to take in infected fish even if they are healthy again to jeopardize uninfected stocks.

Also, there are way more research on human sickness and information about treatment of diseases, how it spread, etc. I'm sure that fish diseases and treatment pale in comparison to that of humans, much less some unknown disease that has not been tested in a lab yet. Until there is sufficient information and data to prove that the disease is indeed not transferable anymore after treating those infected fish, I don't think anyone would want to take that risk.

But I still commend your efforts in trying to get everything squared away with Mr. Chen. Hopefully he will do the right thing.

Scribbles
12-12-2009, 04:13 PM
Just to clarify something here, we did not sell any fish and do not want to sell sick fish until they are completely recovered.

Local Simply hobbyists come to our showroom all the time, ask them if we ever sold any fish to them! We only sold people fish which is from our local wholesaler.

We were just providing customer service with the price list and telling Joanne the fish might be ready for 10-14 days, but not promised. What's wrong with that???
Plus, it's possible if we use the right medications, the fish will become healthy again. It's like when human beings got sick, just take some medicine and get healed in a week or two.

We still will be responsible for all the losses as we already sent all the pictures to Mr. Chen.

James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA

You stated earlier that these fish had been sick and recovered before being shipped to you. Obviously they still carried the disease and if they live through this outbreak they will very likely contiinue to carry it. I think that you can appreciate that no one should have to take the risk of adding these fish to their tanks.

Chris

poconogal
12-12-2009, 04:16 PM
I just finished reading this entire thread. OMG it is sickening and heartbreaking. Bob, Rod, Francis and the rest of you who have had such losses, I am so sorry.

That the seller is contemplating the sale of more of these fish is simply unbelievable. Fish King - Any fish that you may "clean up" will be carriers. You need to do the right thing, please do so.

moik
12-12-2009, 04:27 PM
No matter what medication you give these discus will NOT make a difference..They are carriers for life... IMHO..I would not take the chance. James ,every discus you sell after they are considered cured are going to do nothing but start new outbreaks all over again..Common sense should tell you what is RIGHT...Its your conscience...No way to escape it, if you really care.

roclement
12-12-2009, 04:46 PM
James,

You told me and other people directly that you could not, would not sell any more of these fish. This is why I am so surprised by what you post, you told me directly that these fish would be carriers, just like the flu, and that they could be treated for the symptoms but may always carry the disease. That is where my surprise comes to see you offering fish for sale, "once they are clean"...again...I am dissapointed.

Still wating to see, as you stated again here, in writing, that you and Fishking will take care of everyone's losses.

Rod

hedut
12-12-2009, 04:50 PM
WOW :flame::flame::flame:. Honestly I feel bad for those been order with fish king. And seems Mr Chen or what ever it is no respond either. Seems They all like "washing hand". I think Al should take next step for this :D:D:D. NO MORE FISH KING for everybody :p:p:p. This very huge thing for every discus hobbyist.


fish king are you gonna responsible for every member that loose their fish ? either your fish or not cause that virus?

The Rockster
12-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Hi,
Although we are new on this forum, we have already posted our condolences to those involved with this nightmare.

I just have a question.

About 6 months ago, I was at our breeders facilities, and we were discussing the Discus Plague. How it goes airborne, with no known cure, and breeders loose their fish by the bucket fulls. I was told by them, (Jack Wattley Discus) that this dreaded disease was making a comeback, and it was reoriginating from Malaysia. Eventually it would probably turn into a Discus Pandemic again.

So why would folks from North America not buy American grown fish?
Especially with the history of the last outbreak, and the aerial contamination of on hand stock? To save a few bucks? Aren't they facilitating the global contamination of the breed?

Please, don't take this post the wrong way. We are new to this hobby, and honestly are trying to understand the reasoning behind buying fish from third world countries, that have very lax standards, and the possibility of spreading such a nightmare as this.

ifixoldhouses
12-12-2009, 06:56 PM
Hi,
Although we are new on this forum, we have already posted our condolences to those involved with this nightmare.

I just have a question.

About 6 months ago, I was at our breeders facilities, and we were discussing the Discus Plague. How it goes airborne, with no known cure, and breeders loose their fish by the bucket fulls. I was told by them, (Jack Wattley Discus) that this dreaded disease was making a comeback, and it was reoriginating from Malaysia. Eventually it would probably turn into a Discus Pandemic again.

So why would folks from North America not buy American grown fish?
Especially with the history of the last outbreak, and the aerial contamination of on hand stock? To save a few bucks? Aren't they facilitating the global contamination of the breed?

Please, don't take this post the wrong way. We are new to this hobby, and honestly are trying to understand the reasoning behind buying fish from third world countries, that have very lax standards, and the possibility of spreading such a nightmare as this.


I for one don't buy anything made in Taiwan, that's one reason we're in a recession, everything is made somewhere besides the US, may not have anything to do with fish but hey..

From a legal standpoint wouldn't it be hard to prove your fish died from something a new fish brought in, you would have to have a picture of everyone and a time stamp on it, and maybe a veterinarian statement proving cause of death and all, people could just claim they lost this and that you know. I think it's all terrible and I hope it gets worked out, man I'd like to see a picture of $7k worth of dead fish, terrible terrible

lemondiscus
12-12-2009, 07:09 PM
man I'd like to see a picture of $7k worth of dead fish, terrible terrible

Follow the thread back... Bob has posted all of his dead fish! Seeing the dead bodies made my stomach turn!!!!! In one picture is most of our dream stock of fish... and there are SEVERAL pictures with 10-15 fish in them... I would rather see the $7k of fish swimming happily in the tank!

Sad.... very sad....

hedut
12-12-2009, 08:30 PM
Hi,
Although we are new on this forum, we have already posted our condolences to those involved with this nightmare.

I just have a question.

About 6 months ago, I was at our breeders facilities, and we were discussing the Discus Plague. How it goes airborne, with no known cure, and breeders loose their fish by the bucket fulls. I was told by them, (Jack Wattley Discus) that this dreaded disease was making a comeback, and it was reoriginating from Malaysia. Eventually it would probably turn into a Discus Pandemic again.

So why would folks from North America not buy American grown fish?
Especially with the history of the last outbreak, and the aerial contamination of on hand stock? To save a few bucks? Aren't they facilitating the global contamination of the breed?

Please, don't take this post the wrong way. We are new to this hobby, and honestly are trying to understand the reasoning behind buying fish from third world countries, that have very lax standards, and the possibility of spreading such a nightmare as this.

may be open new forum topic would be better:D:D:D. well most beautiful fish made from Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand or Indonesia :D:D

brewmaster15
12-12-2009, 08:35 PM
Guys please....lets keep the commentary down here...This is a complex enough thread to follow thru.

thanks,
al

seanyuki
12-13-2009, 09:09 AM
Just got an update from James(fishkingdiscus) and he's planning to fulfill his promises to us.

Quote
Re: Refund‏
From: Fish King Discus USA (fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com)
Sent: December 12, 2009 11:37:31 PM
To: Francis Barretto (francismcb@hotmail.com)

Francis,


Can you please send the dead fish pics again because we think we lost yours when we sent all the pics to Mr. Chen yesterday?
We'll go up there again soon and collect the fish, and pay you back.


Thank you very much,


James & Mandy
Fish King Discus USA
fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com
www.fishkingdiscususa.com







On 2009/12/11, at 上午 10:45, Francis Barretto wrote:

Unquote

Just give him some time in replying all your emails .


cheers
Francis:)

roclement
12-13-2009, 01:42 PM
this is good news! let's hope they come through for everyone!

rod

MSD
12-13-2009, 01:49 PM
The excellent fish that are exported make us buy, not the price. These fish cost more if anything. Not all farms will be infected either, we all have hundreds of fish from Kenny and Forrest, they are perfect. Include Dan and his Wayne Ng fish, they are healthy and very nice. Please do not indict all exporters and importers, the good people keep their fish for a few weeks to make sure they are healthy. Hans was not included by me because he is a single source from Germany, but has superior fish too. I don't want to slight any of the excellent people we buy from on Simply. And we have fish from these people for YEARS, all healthy and reproducing.

roclement
12-14-2009, 12:29 AM
another day goes by...no word at all from Fishking...with todays technology it is tought to imagine that comunication can be this difficult...

tomorrow I am off from work so I will drain my tank from the bleach water, clean it with vinegar, spray it down and re-fill it to start re-cycling...I have new sponges coming from kens fish ordered by Bobtools...i will use a established sponge from my tanks that were not affected, and Dr.Tims bacteria to do a insta-cycle and next week week should be ready for a test fish from my friend hans the man!

I will also head over to Bob's house and help him clean his tanks, it will be tough to see all those tanks empty, if you been to his place you know what I mean...

Life goes on...I would like to know if anyone has received a re-fund for fish lost other then the original purchase so far...

Rod

subcooler
12-14-2009, 07:39 AM
I will also head over to Bob's house and help him clean his tanks, it will be tough to see all those tanks empty, if you been to his place you know what I mean...

Life goes on...I would like to know if anyone has received a re-fund for fish lost other then the original purchase so far...

Rod

Rod,

I haven't replied in this thread yet,No words can sum up this horrible course of events!

I've seen Bob's setup & the thought of that basemant empty is saddening!

Wishing you Both the best of luck with the "test" discus" !

Maybe we can all get together again for a NE Discus event in the future-Had a great time on the roadtrip to Hans' place last summer!

Happy Holidays,
Rob

BOBT00LS
12-14-2009, 05:47 PM
Has anyone besides Francis heard from James ? This is one instance where the phrase "no news is good news" DOES NOT APPLY


Bob

roclement
12-14-2009, 07:16 PM
one more day...no news...

here's what I am left with...in that room...tanks is clean and sterilized, ready for a new start...waiting for new sponge filters, and new fish...

rod

MSD
12-14-2009, 08:02 PM
Nice Rod, a clean start isn't bad, if you get ALL of you money back first. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, file in small claims and get ball rolling before they move.

BOBT00LS
12-14-2009, 08:04 PM
Im right behind you Rod. All of my tanks and equipment sat in a bleach bath, then rinsed with vinegar, followed by a thorough rinse with clean water. It was alot of work. I have charcoal in the filters for two days to extract any chemicals left behind. As soon as the new sponge filters get here I will be ready for the test fish (Thanks Hans ! ). Pics of a some of my empty but clean tanks are posted below. Hopefully soon I will have my breeder tanks occupied once again.

Bob

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-14-09008.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr64/BOBT00LS/12-14-09006.jpg

roclement
12-14-2009, 08:28 PM
Bob,

that looks so sad and empty...:0( once we get back up and running you are more than welcome to "borrow" the pair I bought from you months ago! I know they will bread for you!

let's keep positive...think of the possibilities!!!

did you contact the lawyer yet?

Rod

hedut
12-14-2009, 09:53 PM
So Bob, are you loss all you fish?

bs6749
12-14-2009, 09:54 PM
WOW, so sorry to hear that you guys are going through all of this! I hope that you are fairly compensated with QUALITY fish that are HEALTHY or money where necessary. There are a few pieces in my collection that money just can't replace and have special meaning to me and I'm sure the same applies to your fish as well. My heart goes out to all of you going through this ordeal.

I was actually contemplating purchasing some discus from their November list and am more than thrilled that I didn't. It seems that I have dodged a bullet here. What saved me from going through what you guys are going through is one of my rules that I ALWAYS obey. That is, "Don't purchase ANY fish unless you know what it looks like, or trust the seller." The prices seemed "too good to be true" and I thought something seemed shady so when I decided to trust my instinct and stay away, it appears that it paid off. This lesson has taught me to stick with the small handful of importers/breeders that can be trusted and who are honorable and respected in this community.

BOBT00LS
12-14-2009, 09:59 PM
Hedut, I have zero, zilch, none, squat. :) That will change soon. I do have about 130 ABN plecos in my office tank though.


Bob

hedut
12-14-2009, 10:15 PM
Hedut, I have zero, zilch, none, squat. :) That will change soon. I do have about 130 ABN plecos in my office tank though.


Bob

I'm very sorry. Don't worry you next discus will be the best ever;);)

fishkingdiscususa
12-15-2009, 02:17 AM
We do have an update here from Mr. Chen. He will post a short note here in Simply, and let those 7 people to choose fish from there.
We'll have the fish stay in my uncle's fish wholesale place once we got the shipment from him just to avoid the infection, then ship again.
Please send the desire fish lists to us once you saw his post.

Thank you for your patience.

Fish King Discus USA

prolude006
12-15-2009, 08:37 AM
Uh oh!!

roclement
12-15-2009, 08:55 AM
James,

I must say I am very dissapointed with this. You told me over the phone, and in writing both via e-mail and on this forum that cash compensations would be issued. I expressed to you that I will not bring fish from Fishking back into my house and you told me you understood that completely.

You also tols me that Mr.Chen was working out a deal with other breeders to get stock from them to send to us. I am OK with that as long as I have confirmation of the source of the fish and it comes from a USA representative such as Kenny, Dan, or Hans, not from your uncle's warehouse.

I must remind you that not only this last statement of your contradicts your own words, it also breaks the terms of a implied contract between you and the people afected with this. Also don't forget that since you sold these fish over state lines, and into another country, this transaction becomes a federal issue of interstate commerce.

I urge you to speak with Mr, Chen about this before he posts any further as you are his USA representative.

Let me clarify my position with this. As promissed by you, in writting and via phone messages that I do have saved, I will accept compensation via two means:

Direct cash restitution or,
Replacement of stock from a reputable breeder via their USA representative

Failure to meet any of those two conditions will result in a lawsuit that, if you are aware of how this works, can be a class action since multiple people were affected, and will be entered in the state of New Jersey and on your home state as well.

Please take some time to think about this, I am sure Mr. Chen would rather deal with thishonorably then take this to court after all, in our hobby, all we have is our track record to go on.

Rod Clement

fish4fun
12-15-2009, 11:13 AM
We do have an update here from Mr. Chen. He will post a short note here in Simply, and let those 7 people to choose fish from there.
We'll have the fish stay in my uncle's fish wholesale place once we got the shipment from him just to avoid the infection, then ship again.
Please send the desire fish lists to us once you saw his post.

Thank you for your patience.

Fish King Discus USA

In all fairness, there is no mention that they will be replacing the lost fish with fish king stock.

Only a mention that he will post and allow people to choose. I think I would give the benefit of the doubt here as I see no where that they are replacing with thier own stock. They do state they will allow the 7 affected individuals to CHOOSE fish from what ever Mr. Chen will post on this forum. Lets wait to see what Mr. Chen post and what options are given to the 7 people before jumping to conclusions.

I have been reading this post closely and feel bad for the people affected.

My post id simply my opinion and what I read from James and Mandy's post.

roclement
12-15-2009, 11:37 AM
In all fairness, there is no mention that they will be replacing the lost fish with fish king stock.

Only a mention that he will post and allow people to choose. I think I would give the benefit of the doubt here as I see no where that they are replacing with thier own stock. They do state they will allow the 7 affected individuals to CHOOSE fish from what ever Mr. Chen will post on this forum. Lets wait to see what Mr. Chen post and what options are given to the 7 people before jumping to conclusions.

I have been reading this post closely and feel bad for the people affected.

My post id simply my opinion and what I read from James and Mandy's post.

Agreed with you, my concern is that these fish, be it from whomever they are coming from, will still be handled by James and Fishking USA. If you read the begining of this thread, the initial problem was with shipping and then the disease developed.

Again, I have no issues with fish coming from a different source but I would like them to be imported by an established, reputable, US Distributor such as the ones I mentioned in my post.

If anyone thinks I am out of line by requesting this, please let me know. I am open to input.

Rod

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-15-2009, 12:28 PM
JMO If they offer diseased free fish i would take there offer. Could be some nice fish they have to offer but on the other hand who can tell if they are carriers. id ask them to guarantee money back if these fish they offer and u choose to take them end up being sick later on that they would offer a monetary value for all of them plus compensation for sanitizing the tanks and replacing equipment . Id put a test fish in one you really dont care for in with the new batch if u do decide to take there offer and monitor it very closely for a month for any signs of disease but im not sure how long fish can be carriers of a certain disease and not show signs. id have a e-signature with the contract written up if u do decide to take there offer. to take it to court you may be losing out for court fees plus a headache. In bobs case tho where his lost was in the 1000s i dont know what i would do. Id ask other sponsors what they think is fair if they are allowed to give there opinions. If this happen to One of our major sponsors this would be a castrophy since there so many customers it would probably make that sponsor bankrupt if he had to pay everyone back for the fish they sent out plus the fish people already have.

bs6749
12-15-2009, 12:50 PM
I don't think that you are out of line at all and you should get what you paid for or get your money back. That is "fair" to me. I don't blame you from not wanting any fish from Fish King Discus, I wouldn't want them anymore either, especially since your last experience purchasing from them lead to this mess.

However, I'm not sure about them having to cover the losses of your other fish as well. Don't get me wrong, if it were ME in your shoes, I would certainly want them to cover my losses and boy would I be pissed if they didn't. I'm not sure if they are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to cover your losses and that is what you are going to need to prove in court if it goes that far. I think that you are going to have a hard time getting anything else from Fish King Discus other than what you paid for or your money back. I'm not sure how a judge will look at it, but my feeling is that you would have to prove that the seller of the fish knew that they were sick when selling them to you in order to cover your other losses. If you can't prove this, then you probably aren't going to get anything more than what you paid in my opinion.

Think of it like this, if you go out and purchase a car "As-is" and it breaks down on you two days later and ruins the clothes you are wearing by covering them with oil should the seller of the car be responsible for either? My opinion is no, because it is up to the buyer to properly research what they are purchasing (not trying to sound rude). Once again, I would be very pissed if this happened to me, however we all know the risks involved of buying used cars that are sold "As-is" with no warranty nor protection and that is sort of how you purchased your fish in my opinion. You couldn't have known the history of the fish unless you asked. Had the seller lied to you about them, then this would be a completely different outcome and you would be rewarded with much more, once again all in my opinion.

I also don't think that a judge will see that it was the fault of the seller that your other fish died because the new fish should have been quaranteened "properly". By "properly" I mean that you all could have avoided losses to your other fish if the tanks were far enough apart (isolated) and obviously by not putting the new fish in the same tank as your current fish which would spread the disease from the sick fish to your other fish. Granted, I know it is very unrealistic to have to QT tank in a room all by itself as most of us have "fish rooms", but you have to look at it from a 3rd party point and see that it wasn't the fault of Fish King Discus that you QT'ed them in a room with other tanks. I'm not siding with them at all, just stating that other losses could have been avoided. If I bought fish from them from the last shipment, I'd have loads of dead fish just like the rest of you because I have a "fishroom". I would also have to place blame on myself for not quaranteening "properly" meaning keeping them ISOLATED from any other fish/tanks.

It seems that this disease is an airborne virus. Had it been waterborne, then most of you who QT by the normal "proper method" (not sharing unsterilized equipment between tanks, etc.) would be just fine, minus the dead fish from Fish King. However, this isn't a "normal disease" at all as it appears, and it was an unfortunate occurance that it happened because the tanks were too close together. Someone mentioned that they had a tank in another room that was unaffected, which shows that the sick fish were isolated from the rest. In my opinion, it's not the responsibility of the seller what you do with the fish once you take possession. Should the fish they sent die, then yes, they should be obligated to pay for them unless there was a prior agreement beforehand stating otherwise. That's how I think a judge will see it. For your sake I hope I am wrong, but my gut instinct is that a judge won't reward for losses other than what the buyers initially purchased.

This must be a very hard and expensive "lesson" for some to learn, but I do feel that if the fish were isolated from your other fish, then this would not have happened. The fact that some fish were far enough apart from the sick ones that they remain alive shows me this. Though some go to extreme lengths to "properly QT" their new fish by common, albeit practical methods, there exist rare situations such as this when extraordinary precautions need to be in place and the strictist of standards need to be upheld.


Good luck to all of you who lost fish, money, and hardware in this unfortunate mess. I'm rooting for you and hope that each of you get compensated for ALL of your losses. That's what I would want to be compensated for if I were in your shoes.

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-15-2009, 01:32 PM
good advice BS. fishking reads that they may use that if they go to court. Your statement is useful for both sides. Hopefully they both meet in the middle and resolve this and all parties are satisfied.

roclement
12-15-2009, 02:07 PM
I don't think that you are out of line at all and you should get what you paid for or get your money back. That is "fair" to me. I don't blame you from not wanting any fish from Fish King Discus, I wouldn't want them anymore either, especially since your last experience purchasing from them lead to this mess.

However, I'm not sure about them having to cover the losses of your other fish as well. Don't get me wrong, if it were ME in your shoes, I would certainly want them to cover my losses and boy would I be pissed if they didn't. I'm not sure if they are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to cover your losses and that is what you are going to need to prove in court if it goes that far. I think that you are going to have a hard time getting anything else from Fish King Discus other than what you paid for or your money back. I'm not sure how a judge will look at it, but my feeling is that you would have to prove that the seller of the fish knew that they were sick when selling them to you in order to cover your other losses. If you can't prove this, then you probably aren't going to get anything more than what you paid in my opinion.

Think of it like this, if you go out and purchase a car "As-is" and it breaks down on you two days later and ruins the clothes you are wearing by covering them with oil should the seller of the car be responsible for either? My opinion is no, because it is up to the buyer to properly research what they are purchasing (not trying to sound rude). Once again, I would be very pissed if this happened to me, however we all know the risks involved of buying used cars that are sold "As-is" with no warranty nor protection and that is sort of how you purchased your fish in my opinion. You couldn't have known the history of the fish unless you asked. Had the seller lied to you about them, then this would be a completely different outcome and you would be rewarded with much more, once again all in my opinion.

I also don't think that a judge will see that it was the fault of the seller that your other fish died because the new fish should have been quaranteened "properly". By "properly" I mean that you all could have avoided losses to your other fish if the tanks were far enough apart (isolated) and obviously by not putting the new fish in the same tank as your current fish which would spread the disease from the sick fish to your other fish. Granted, I know it is very unrealistic to have to QT tank in a room all by itself as most of us have "fish rooms", but you have to look at it from a 3rd party point and see that it wasn't the fault of Fish King Discus that you QT'ed them in a room with other tanks. I'm not siding with them at all, just stating that other losses could have been avoided. If I bought fish from them from the last shipment, I'd have loads of dead fish just like the rest of you because I have a "fishroom". I would also have to place blame on myself for not quaranteening "properly" meaning keeping them ISOLATED from any other fish/tanks.

It seems that this disease is an airborne virus. Had it been waterborne, then most of you who QT by the normal "proper method" (not sharing unsterilized equipment between tanks, etc.) would be just fine, minus the dead fish from Fish King. However, this isn't a "normal disease" at all as it appears, and it was an unfortunate occurance that it happened because the tanks were too close together. Someone mentioned that they had a tank in another room that was unaffected, which shows that the sick fish were isolated from the rest. In my opinion, it's not the responsibility of the seller what you do with the fish once you take possession. Should the fish they sent die, then yes, they should be obligated to pay for them unless there was a prior agreement beforehand stating otherwise. That's how I think a judge will see it. For your sake I hope I am wrong, but my gut instinct is that a judge won't reward for losses other than what the buyers initially purchased.

This must be a very hard and expensive "lesson" for some to learn, but I do feel that if the fish were isolated from your other fish, then this would not have happened. The fact that some fish were far enough apart from the sick ones that they remain alive shows me this. Though some go to extreme lengths to "properly QT" their new fish by common, albeit practical methods, there exist rare situations such as this when extraordinary precautions need to be in place and the strictist of standards need to be upheld.


Good luck to all of you who lost fish, money, and hardware in this unfortunate mess. I'm rooting for you and hope that each of you get compensated for ALL of your losses. That's what I would want to be compensated for if I were in your shoes.

My friend,

I am sure this thread is long and difficult to follow. The fish were isolated and quarentined, the fact that the disease was airborne is what caused an issue. I only lost the fish in one room, others lost their whole stock because the fish, including quarentine tanks are in the same basement. How many people here have their quarentine tanks in separate parts of their house?

The suggestion for refund did not come from me but from Fishking, in writing and many times over, not only to me but to others here as well. To make matters worst I didn't receive the medication from Fishking for over a week...

As stated by me many times over, when I started this thread, I had lost any hope of receiving any compensation from Fishking whatsoever, my goal was to make people aware and to stop buying fish from them, the propoasal for refund came from them as a means to make up for all the problems.

Just a side note, the $100 they sent me back for the original fish I ordered were donated to Simply as promissed. It is important that this Forum carries on.

Rod

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-15-2009, 02:39 PM
BS, you shouldn't even mention Kenny's name in conjunction with this thread, someone may misread it or skim and thats how rumors start.

yea u shouldnt do that. forums are rumormills

Spardas
12-15-2009, 02:54 PM
It’s true that there is a burden of proof here for the people affected but I’m pretty sure they have a strong case.

First and foremost, on the main fishkingdiscususa.com web page, their mission statement is:

“Fish King Discus USA is proudly represending Fish King Discus Farm in Taiwan. We provide not only high quality and healthy discus, but also best customer services. Our main goal here is to let discus hobbyists know more about discus from Fish King Discus, secondly, we are thrilled to share and learn knoledge about discus. Thus, please don’t feel hesitated to contact us for any questions or conserns because we’re here to help!!!

James & Mandy”

Please note that the misspelled words are what were posted on their site.

So, they have made the commitment to provide buyers with high quality and healthy discus and “best customer services”. This means that they have to act in good faith on behalf of the customers in terms of choosing and selecting what discus fish to send and when to send and if the fish are healthy enough to be sent. If that’s a given, they know that they have an implied contract in providing high quality and healthy discus.

However, base on this statement:
“(When Mr. Chen was still in China, a new shipment came, all wild. So Mr. Chen's employees put them in a different room quarantine with some other fish, and soon those fish were all infected without warning. Mr. Chen was notified right away, so he flew back next day and medicated the fish.
He tried to postpone the shipment to us, but since there was no any sickness appeared after several days observation, he decided to ship them just like scheduled.)

After knowing what happened, Mr. Chen sent medication right away, then after we received it, we shipped them out, and we went to Vancouver again delivered the medication.
We didn't ignore emails, we were just too busy driving around saving fish.”

So, based on this piece of information, they decided to ship fishes that didn’t appear to be sick within only a few days. Now, given the extent of experience the supplier and dealer has on fish diseases, quarantine, and etc.; they know fully well that a few days are not adequate. Mr. Chen in this case decided to ship just like schedule because he has several reasons:
1) He wants to sell the fish and get the money just as scheduled.
2) He doesn’t want to delay shipment which may cause unrest in buyers.
3) It may also damage his reputation as a timely supplier.
4) He wasn’t fully aware of what the disease is and feels that it’s safe.

Please note that this is my own interpretation of how he may have weighed his reasons.

So obviously, this wasn’t an as is buy like the example of the car bs6749 brought up. This is a buy that is built on trust and a contract amongst the groups affected here. Mr. Chen fully know that the wild fish were carriers of some sort of disease and that they affected other fishes but yet he still sent fishes only after a few days of observation, that is simply negligence with intention explained by the reasons I’ve listed above.

Based on the statement above as well, we know that James & Mandy knew of the condition of the fish. Therefore, they as experienced discus keeper should have asked for a postponement in shipment to ensure quality.

The buyers relied on Fish King Discus USA to provide quality stock that wouldn’t jeopardize their other fishes. Not only that, I’m sure people who were affected by this can provide emails of the exchange between themselves and James & Mandy about a proper method of compensation. They can also prove that James & Mandy have offered to compensate for all the damages loss. For example:

“You told me over the phone, and in writing both via e-mail and on this forum that cash compensations would be issued. I expressed to you that I will not bring fish from Fishking back into my house and you told me you understood that completely.”

So, here, based on this statement, James & Mandy promised cash compensation and that they understand that people won’t want to take risks from taking in fishes from Fish King. So, if they were to not fulfill this part, they would be breaking the contract that they initiated and should be fined the appropriate amount. Not only that, they stated best customer services as one of their qualities in their mission statement, and so the customers relied on this and it becomes another contract.

Note this statement from James & Mandy themselves:

“We know we are new, but this can't be an excuse to escape from what happened. We'll be responsible for all the loss, but we need time to communicate with Mr. Chen, and time for him to find the best way to compensate. Please send all the dead fish pics to fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com, and we'll contact you shortly.”

So, this means that they are willing to compensate for all of the loss.

Now, if they do fulfill their end of the bargain, then there wouldn’t be any issues. If not, I feel that everyone who was harmed in this has a lot of proofs to convey to the judge their side of “burden of proof”.

Again, this is all in my own opinion! I’m sure an attorney will find other ways to turn this case in favor of all the plaintiffs here as I feel the burden of proof is very easy here.

Chester
12-15-2009, 03:48 PM
Well,

This fiasco certainly has been fine kettle of fish so to speak.

But, even when bad things happen like this I believe there will be some good things to learn from it. The lessons learned here is one I myself personally have gone through. I’ve pretty much lost my entire fishroom, wiped out by an unknown spectre.

Although I’m new to Simply Discus, ( A warm greeting to everyone ) both myself and family are not new to the aquatic trade with more than 35 years of experience.

With these years of experience we have noticed some things that have began to occur with more frequency as time passes on. Especially in the past ten years. Even the medical professional that work with us are starting to blow alarm bells.

Ornamental fish being exported to North American from the Asian Continent are harbouring an ever increasing load of bacteria, viruses, parasites and general diseases that are fast become Multi Drug Resistant and completely fail to respond to both traditional and modern treatment tactics.

It the past year from our medical consultants I have heard the words “Super Ick”, “Super Chilodonella” as well as MDR strain of Hex and Flukes. I have also watched on in horror as 3 major fishrooms where totally devastated by Fish TB. And the common thread to all of this was Asian Imports. Our Medical Consultants have also notice a sharp rise is virulent strains of bacteria that are Multi Drug Resistant.

Since I’ve been through this and witness so much of this in the past few years I’ve decide to learn from these events. No more imported fish will ever enter my fishroom until the commercial breeders of Asia “get control” of these medical issues. Also in the past years I have had opportunity to deal directly with some of the top Asian Continent breeders on these health issues. I was appalled to find many serious breeders barely had the rudimentary skill in order to deal with these issues. And as a side note, the virus you experienced here was not one that came from the wild discus population, it was a man induced virus. A simple virus mutated in a tank somewhere becoming a rapid killer overnight. If this was a wild virus, the reports of “fish kills” from the native areas would be just pouring in. Thank god they are not. If this man induced virus got loose in the wild Discus population its affect would be most devastating.

Over the past year I have made a good attempt to secure some of the top breeding stock in the world. They have been quarantined for months and stripped of all internal and external parasites. The fish have undergone 2, 90 day treatment routines design by our medical consultants to be free of health problems. My fishroom is now closed. No more new fish. I will develop my lines by using modern line breeding tactics rather than introducing “wild caught” discus in an attempt to breed in vigor or size back into a give line. I must say this treatment path has taken some very nice fish and turned them around into magnificent creatures. It was well worth the time and money spent.

So to the folks who lost fish in this episode, I understand your frustration COMPLETELY. But please do turn it into a positive learning experience. When searching for Discus fish, I just cant image a fish sold at retail of $25.00 could be anything but a time bomb waiting to go off and wipe out your fishroom. We all know how much work it takes to breed and raise high quality fry. I just can’t see getting the quality and health you expected for $25.00 based on the amount for hard work and investment to raise them. Buy fish from someone who sees them as a life entity, not a dollar sign.

Please don’t be too discouraged, I don’t think any of us would wish to see you leave the hobby. It can be quite rewarding with quality stock and good housekeeping tactics.

Once again, my condolences to you.

Cheers

Chester

bs6749
12-15-2009, 04:12 PM
My friend,

I am sure this thread is long and difficult to follow. The fish were isolated and quarentined, the fact that the disease was airborne is what caused an issue. I only lost the fish in one room, others lost their whole stock because the fish, including quarentine tanks are in the same basement. How many people here have their quarentine tanks in separate parts of their house?

The suggestion for refund did not come from me but from Fishking, in writing and many times over, not only to me but to others here as well. To make matters worst I didn't receive the medication from Fishking for over a week...

As stated by me many times over, when I started this thread, I had lost any hope of receiving any compensation from Fishking whatsoever, my goal was to make people aware and to stop buying fish from them, the propoasal for refund came from them as a means to make up for all the problems.

Just a side note, the $100 they sent me back for the original fish I ordered were donated to Simply as promissed. It is important that this Forum carries on.

Rod

Rod,

I assure you that I read all 11 pages of this thread prior to making my first post. I am aware that you lost all of the fish in the same room as you kept the sick discus in...that was my point. Since this seems to be an airborne virus all of the tanks in the same room were infected leading to dead discus. However, you did have some in another room survive, correct? I'm not trying to tell you what you "should have done". Hindsight is always 20/20, rather I'm suggesting that a judge might not see things how you see them. Nobody told you WHERE to QT your new (but unknowingly sick) arrivals and a judge might place the blame on you for having them QT'ed in the same general area as other fish. Granted, airborne sicknesses/diseases with fish may be few and far between, but it is something that can and does happen and although it is rare, a "true quaranteen" would have isolated the sick fish from your healthy ones even though the risk of an airborne disease spreading might not have seemed like much of a threat. Had a more isolated room been chosen you most likely wouldn't have experienced the losses that you did, same thing for everyone else. I also realize that it may not be practical to QT them in a separate area as most of us have fish rooms. I'm simply pointing out the fact that nobody told you WHERE you had to QT them (as you would normally do with any new arrival). You couldn't have known that the fish had an airborne illness and I'm sure if you did you would have destroyed the fish. At the end of the day though a judge isn't going to say that Fish King is to blame for your QT methods. I'm not saying that I agree with that, just pointing out the reality of what could happen in court. If it were MY shipment, I would have QT'ed them with the rest of my fishroom and I would have many dead discus too. You guys weren't aware that they were sick, but if you can prove that Fish King WAS aware that the fish were sick then you may be entitled to more for damages that occured to your other stock. I'm not siding with Fish King Discus when I tell you that, just pointing out how a judge might see things.

I thank you for posting your experience on this site. Had I not seen it I may have purchased some fish from them in the near future. But since I have seen what has happened to you and countless others I am staying away from them for good. I have learned from your experience and I feel sorry for everyone that got burnt by them. I'm just hoping that they will cut a deal with a sponsor that you want fish from so that everyone is happy.

bs6749
12-15-2009, 04:22 PM
However, base on this statement:
“(When Mr. Chen was still in China, a new shipment came, all wild. So Mr. Chen's employees put them in a different room quarantine with some other fish, and soon those fish were all infected without warning. Mr. Chen was notified right away, so he flew back next day and medicated the fish.
He tried to postpone the shipment to us, but since there was no any sickness appeared after several days observation, he decided to ship them just like scheduled.)

After knowing what happened, Mr. Chen sent medication right away, then after we received it, we shipped them out, and we went to Vancouver again delivered the medication.
We didn't ignore emails, we were just too busy driving around saving fish.”

So obviously, this wasn’t an as is buy like the example of the car bs6749 brought up. This is a buy that is built on trust and a contract amongst the groups affected here. Mr. Chen fully know that the wild fish were carriers of some sort of disease and that they affected other fishes but yet he still sent fishes only after a few days of observation, that is simply negligence with intention explained by the reasons I’ve listed above.

Based on the statement above as well, we know that James & Mandy knew of the condition of the fish. Therefore, they as experienced discus keeper should have asked for a postponement in shipment to ensure quality.

The buyers relied on Fish King Discus USA to provide quality stock that wouldn’t jeopardize their other fishes. Not only that, I’m sure people who were affected by this can provide emails of the exchange between themselves and James & Mandy about a proper method of compensation. They can also prove that James & Mandy have offered to compensate for all the damages loss. For example:

“You told me over the phone, and in writing both via e-mail and on this forum that cash compensations would be issued. I expressed to you that I will not bring fish from Fishking back into my house and you told me you understood that completely.”

So, here, based on this statement, James & Mandy promised cash compensation and that they understand that people won’t want to take risks from taking in fishes from Fish King. So, if they were to not fulfill this part, they would be breaking the contract that they initiated and should be fined the appropriate amount. Not only that, they stated best customer services as one of their qualities in their mission statement, and so the customers relied on this and it becomes another contract.

Note this statement from James & Mandy themselves:

“We know we are new, but this can't be an excuse to escape from what happened. We'll be responsible for all the loss, but we need time to communicate with Mr. Chen, and time for him to find the best way to compensate. Please send all the dead fish pics to fishkingdiscususa@gmail.com, and we'll contact you shortly.”

So, this means that they are willing to compensate for all of the loss.

Now, if they do fulfill their end of the bargain, then there wouldn’t be any issues. If not, I feel that everyone who was harmed in this has a lot of proofs to convey to the judge their side of “burden of proof”.

Again, this is all in my own opinion! I’m sure an attorney will find other ways to turn this case in favor of all the plaintiffs here as I feel the burden of proof is very easy here.

You are right, I misread the part where Fish King Discus acknowledged that the fish were sick and they decided to ship them out. I remember reading it last night and was slightly confused but kept reading anyway. It isn't anything like my example, in fact it's more of a dealer selling you a "lemon".

With that in mind, any decent judge should place blame on Fish King Discus for ALL losses of fish and materials that can't be sterilized, regardless of the QT location. They didn't even let their customers know that the fish were sick or recently ill. They promised one thing and delivered another. They knew the risk of sending out sick fish and hopefully a judge sees it that way and awards full compensation of money and or healthy fish from a reputable source to the buyers who went through this ordeal. Good luck getting what you are owed.

roclement
12-15-2009, 05:14 PM
AMEM Brother!

Still waiting for any kind of news...good or bad from either James (Fishking USA), Mr. Chen (Fishking Discus), or any other hobyist that has any factual new information to add other than the usual e-mail or phone call from James with no further follow-up.

Anyone, please let me know if something comes through.

Rod

seanyuki
12-15-2009, 05:53 PM
Even when paying for $25 for a discus and still can get quality discus imo.....time bomb:confused:but I bought the ARGDs.....those are not 25 bucks discus......many of us here have bought discus from Sponsors here too....they have earned their reputatation and trusts with us.

quote
So to the folks who lost fish in this episode, I understand your frustration COMPLETELY. But please do turn it into a positive learning experience. When searching for Discus fish, I just cant image a fish sold at retail of $25.00 could be anything but a time bomb waiting to go off and wipe out your fishroom. We all know how much work it takes to breed and raise high quality fry. I just can’t see getting the quality and health you expected for $25.00 based on the amount for hard work and investment to raise them. Buy fish from someone who sees them as a life entity, not a dollar sign.

unquote

cheers
Francis:)





Well,

This fiasco certainly has been fine kettle of fish so to speak.

But, even when bad things happen like this I believe there will be some good things to learn from it. The lessons learned here is one I myself personally have gone through. I’ve pretty much lost my entire fishroom, wiped out by an unknown spectre.

Although I’m new to Simply Discus, ( A warm greeting to everyone ) both myself and family are not new to the aquatic trade with more than 35 years of experience.

With these years of experience we have noticed some things that have began to occur with more frequency as time passes on. Especially in the past ten years. Even the medical professional that work with us are starting to blow alarm bells.

Ornamental fish being exported to North American from the Asian Continent are harbouring an ever increasing load of bacteria, viruses, parasites and general diseases that are fast become Multi Drug Resistant and completely fail to respond to both traditional and modern treatment tactics.

It the past year from our medical consultants I have heard the words “Super Ick”, “Super Chilodonella” as well as MDR strain of Hex and Flukes. I have also watched on in horror as 3 major fishrooms where totally devastated by Fish TB. And the common thread to all of this was Asian Imports. Our Medical Consultants have also notice a sharp rise is virulent strains of bacteria that are Multi Drug Resistant.

Since I’ve been through this and witness so much of this in the past few years I’ve decide to learn from these events. No more imported fish will ever enter my fishroom until the commercial breeders of Asia “get control” of these medical issues. Also in the past years I have had opportunity to deal directly with some of the top Asian Continent breeders on these health issues. I was appalled to find many serious breeders barely had the rudimentary skill in order to deal with these issues. And as a side note, the virus you experienced here was not one that came from the wild discus population, it was a man induced virus. A simple virus mutated in a tank somewhere becoming a rapid killer overnight. If this was a wild virus, the reports of “fish kills” from the native areas would be just pouring in. Thank god they are not. If this man induced virus got loose in the wild Discus population its affect would be most devastating.

Over the past year I have made a good attempt to secure some of the top breeding stock in the world. They have been quarantined for months and stripped of all internal and external parasites. The fish have undergone 2, 90 day treatment routines design by our medical consultants to be free of health problems. My fishroom is now closed. No more new fish. I will develop my lines by using modern line breeding tactics rather than introducing “wild caught” discus in an attempt to breed in vigor or size back into a give line. I must say this treatment path has taken some very nice fish and turned them around into magnificent creatures. It was well worth the time and money spent.

So to the folks who lost fish in this episode, I understand your frustration COMPLETELY. But please do turn it into a positive learning experience. When searching for Discus fish, I just cant image a fish sold at retail of $25.00 could be anything but a time bomb waiting to go off and wipe out your fishroom. We all know how much work it takes to breed and raise high quality fry. I just can’t see getting the quality and health you expected for $25.00 based on the amount for hard work and investment to raise them. Buy fish from someone who sees them as a life entity, not a dollar sign.

Please don’t be too discouraged, I don’t think any of us would wish to see you leave the hobby. It can be quite rewarding with quality stock and good housekeeping tactics.

Once again, my condolences to you.

Cheers

Chester

Chester
12-15-2009, 06:26 PM
Francis,

You may choose to accept 35 years of sage advice or not. That’s up to you.

I felt in light of this problem, I would state the undeniable ever increasing frequency of these events that I have personally witnessed time and time again.

Once again, these are my direct experiences. Maybe you’ve had better luck as you buy in smaller batches. Who knows.

I wish you the best of luck in whoever you buy your $25.00 fish from.

Best Regards & Cheers

Chester

roclement
12-15-2009, 06:53 PM
Please keep this on track everyone. This is about my experience with Fishking, I really don't want this to become a debate on discus keeping, etc.

Everyone's point of view is welcome, if someone wants to disagree please take it to PM, this whole issue is hard enough as it is to keep straight.

Thanks for understanding.

Rod

Chad Hughes
12-15-2009, 06:54 PM
A high price tag carries no warranty. I've had plenty of high quality, healthy discus over the years that didn't cost a fortune. On the other hand, I've seen some very expensive, sick looking discus that I wouldn't spend $1 on.

I think I mentioned this earlier in this post, but things do happen. From what I have read, this all sounds like it started in China with a batch of wilds. The shipped discus didn't show any signs of contamination until these fish were in the US? Who knows. I think it's a bit unfair to say that "ornamental fish" from the entire asian continent are infested with illness. There are many people on this forum and off this forum that import regularly without issues. To say that all asian imports are the root of all disease is reckless to say the least. There are many different varieties of ornamental fish as well, discus being one of them.

Bottom line, I don't think that ANY seller of discus would intentionally sell sick fish. You're asking to have your entire operation put out of business by doing so. Whatever the outcome of this situation is, I hope that the parties involved get what they deserve/wish.

Best wishes!

bs6749
12-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Bottom line, I don't think that ANY seller of discus would intentionally sell sick fish. You're asking to have your entire operation put out of business by doing so. Whatever the outcome of this situation is, I hope that the parties involved get what they deserve/wish.

Best wishes!

But on the other hand, importing fish that you KNOW are sick and not medicating them properly and only QT'ing them for a week before sending them out again just shows carelessness on the part of an importer/reseller. In my opinion that is just as bad as selling sick fish and would cause me to stay away for good.

ifixoldhouses
12-15-2009, 08:17 PM
This thread is already on the 2nd page, of a "Fish king discus" Google search, anyone that was thinking about buying from them will see it now,they maybe could counter sue for defamation of character or something, I'd settle out of court if possible, wouldn't everyone have to fly to California or something? that would cost you a grand or more. what a mess goodluck:(

Discus-Hans
12-15-2009, 08:44 PM
Okay, all fine but what did we learn from it???? Did somebody contact Brian???
I presume Fish King/victims, send of some Discus to him, he offered to help if I'm well, if not shame on you all.

If it's a money thing to get them looked on, I would be happy to help in that, because you never know how helpful this inspection can be for any of us in the future.

By the way, if you as newbie, not have seen this whole thread and you see Fish King USA and look their I-trader they have a 100% rating :confused: :confused: what still means a good source to buy from,

Hans

roclement
12-15-2009, 09:29 PM
This thread is already on the 2nd page, of a "Fish king discus" Google search, anyone that was thinking about buying from them will see it now,they maybe could counter sue for defamation of character or something, I'd settle out of court if possible, wouldn't everyone have to fly to California or something? that would cost you a grand or more. what a mess goodluck:(

Defamation of character implies that something stated here is untrue or defamatory. All my posts and replies have been 100% accurate.

Hans, I believe some fish were sne to the Doctor by someone in California, not sure who did it.

Al, if you think it's time to lock the thread please go ahead, anyone can post any further developments on their own.

I would ask again, that this thread do not become a bashing thread, this is not about Asian fish in general, nor about "the plague"...this is about my experience with Fishking.

Please everyone keep it on topic.

Thanks again for understanding.

Rod

April
12-15-2009, 09:32 PM
the canadians have already sent 4 fish to the government lab for testing. the preliminary report is done..but..the final report isnt done yet. that takes more time . francis has the report. we wanted it done..its a learning tool as well as knowing what meds should be used..and if they can be carriers or if more fish can be bought..or should they be culled. i myself wanted to know..as these canadians are also my customers..and if i sell fish later..we all need to know if they can introduce new fish to their tanks or house or same room etc.
sooner wouldve been better for testing..so everyone wouldve known what meds to use or not use.

mikel
12-15-2009, 09:33 PM
I agree that this thread should be about Fishking, not the whole debate about "imports" or the quality of Asian bred fish. In fact, it is hugely unfair to claim that all Asian fish harbor disease, or super-strains of diseases...there are plenty of good source of discus from Asia, like Wayne and others. To use this tragic event to push one's agenda is just not cool.

I think Rod and Bob and others deserve to be completely compensated. Fishking did not do "due diligence' before they actually sent their fish...and their shoddy, cost-cutting delivery methods added to the severity of the situation. How horribly quick the whole situation deteriorated...just amazingly sad. But Dan and Kenny deal with Asian-send/import fish without cutting any corners; so how can anyone generalize about whole groups of people and how they do things? Kenny and Dan both import Asian fish from Forrest and Wayne, and their qualities all around are obvious. JMHO mike:)

Discus-Hans
12-15-2009, 10:03 PM
I agree that this thread should be about Fishking, not the whole debate about "imports" or the quality of Asian bred fish. In fact, it is hugely unfair to claim that all Asian fish harbor disease, or super-strains of diseases...there are plenty of good source of discus from Asia, like Wayne and others. To use this tragic event to push one's agenda is just not cool.

I think Rod and Bob and others deserve to be completely compensated. Fishking did not do "due diligence' before they actually sent their fish...and their shoddy, cost-cutting delivery methods added to the severity of the situation. How horribly quick the whole situation deteriorated...just amazingly sad. But Dan and Kenny deal with Asian-send/import fish without cutting any corners; so how can anyone generalize about whole groups of people and how they do things? Kenny and Dan both import Asian fish from Forrest and Wayne, and their qualities all around are obvious. JMHO mike:)

Mike 100% correct there. This is NOT about imported Discus in general,

Hans

Eddie
12-15-2009, 10:16 PM
The only thing that will show up from the lab results are secondary issues that can be dealt with, with typical chemotherapeutic agents but the real problem is what allowed those secondary issue to overcome the fish. If a virus is responsible, they will never be able to pinpoint it. Just my 2 cents.

Eddie

Arjunpun
12-15-2009, 10:55 PM
After reading all these post. It's best to sue the company. I almost bought the fish last week from them. Thanks for this website and the guy who started the thread.

seanyuki
12-15-2009, 11:22 PM
I have submitted discus live/dead samples to the lab(the Animal Health Centre)yesterday and here are the initial test results....more test results will follow later

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/



http://i45.tinypic.com/bjftl4.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/29modg4.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/1zqykuc.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/11jp2rd.png

Eddie
12-15-2009, 11:27 PM
I have submitted discus live/dead samples to the lab(the Animal Health Centre)yesterday and here are the initial test results....more test results will follow later

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/



http://i45.tinypic.com/bjftl4.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/29modg4.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/1zqykuc.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/11jp2rd.png

Basically exactly like I said. :o

Just to add a reference

http://www.practical-water-gardens.com/ulcerdisease.htm

Eddie

Fons_van_der_Hart
12-15-2009, 11:28 PM
First of all sorry for your losses Rod, Bob, Francis and all the others.

I've been taking my time to read all 13 pages sofar (this reply probably will be on page 14) and I haven't seen so much pictures which made my heart cry out loud. It really hurts to see so much Discus being killed by a virus, bacteria or whatever.

First things that comes to my mind.
- Rod take as much care as possible for your other fish, I remember the period of "the plague" very well (also as a victim and witness of a lot of losses). A lot of people also lost their fish in other rooms in the same house aswell.
- *** (sorry but reading this is making me awfully angry) is Mr. Chen, you haven't done business with him. If you by from wallmart they're responsible and not their Chinese or whatever manufactor. So don't keep on telling we've got to wait on an answer of Mr. Chen.
- Before buying new Discus be sure to use some "test fish" before buying new stock.
- This virus, bacteria or whatever is absolutely NOT caused by wildcaught fish. If this was the case the virus would have been spread around the world within a very short period. Sofar I haven't seen this problem anywhere on Asian, Australian or European forums and be sure it would have been posted.

Due to this topic I've been looking around at the FishKing website, not only the US but also the Taiwan website, and searching a bit around on Google.
First thing I noticed were the pictures, a lot of them were taking in very various tanks, some BB, some with planted photo backwalls, some with rock backwalls, others with sand on the bottom, some with sponge filters and others with overflow systems. Those great variaty in pictures is not normal for a discus breeders website, check all of them out and you can see they all use one or two systems. This gives me the impression FishKing is buying his Discus from various breeders. All the same signs as we had during "the plague" period.
I do remember a topic, not so long ago here at Simply stating about the same and somehow some people overlooked this... No offence to anyone at all but it looks like you all trusted someone on his beautifull blue eyes (as we say here in Holland).

I hope Dr. Brian or the guys from Canada come up with results soon, so we all can learn from this dreadfull experience and maybe a medicine will show up which can help all those who will have the same terrible problems you guys had to suffer.

For those who are now having the same problem, cure and wait a long, long time before adding new fish. Just try with one or two "test fish".

Wishing you all the best in this period which should have been a happy holiday season.

Fons.

roclement
12-16-2009, 12:34 AM
WOW...I understood absolutely nothing from the medical report! Way over my head...once the results are in can someone ake some cliff notes please? In any case thanks very much to the Canadian crew for posting!?

If I get no restitution from Fishking I already have a sense of acomplishment with all of this. I honeslty feel that by posting here I have prevented many hobbyists from suffering the same fate as I and many others have. People in Canada, France, Australia, Holand, Taiwan, Thailand, Japan, Brasil, Mexico, and obviously, from many states here in the USA knwo about this and have their guards up! This is all I wanted as it seems Fishking is yet to step up to the plate with any solid propoasal for restitution...

I have spoken to a lawyer today and sent him this whole thread, as well as pictures, e-mails exchanged, pm's from other people in the forum, and two voice messages from James. My lawyer, who also happens to be a district Judge and the President of the Club I work for will review the whole issue and advise me on what to do. He did tell me that, since my losses were small, it may not be worth pursuing the issue but, with other peoples losses, there may be a good case here.

I will think long and hard on how I want to proceed.

Now I leave you with my usual line in this thread...in todays high tech world...why is it taking so long for any sort of resolution to happen?

Rod

Dkarc@Aol.com
12-16-2009, 12:48 AM
WOW...I understood absolutely nothing from the medical report! Way over my head...once the results are in can someone ake some cliff notes please? In any case thanks very much to the Canadian crew for posting!?

If I get no restitution from Fishking I already have a sense of acomplishment with all of this. I honeslty feel that by posting here I have prevented many hobbyists from suffering the same fate as I and many others have. People in Canada, France, Australia, Holand, Taiwan, Thailand, Japan, Brasil, Mexico, and obviously, from many states here in the USA knwo about this and have their guards up! This is all I wanted as it seems Fishking is yet to step up to the plate with any solid propoasal for restitution...

I have spoken to a lawyer today and sent him this whole thread, as well as pictures, e-mails exchanged, pm's from other people in the forum, and two voice messages from James. My lawyer, who also happens to be a district Judge and the President of the Club I work for will review the whole issue and advise me on what to do. He did tell me that, since my losses were small, it may not be worth pursuing the issue but, with other peoples losses, there may be a good case here.

I will think long and hard on how I want to proceed.

Now I leave you with my usual line in this thread...in todays high tech world...why is it taking so long for any sort of resolution to happen?

Rod

Cliffnotes of the preliminary report....most likely caused by an aeromonas infection. More info on Motile Aeromonas Septicemia: http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/2350816-478fs.pdf?CFID=2350816&CFTOKEN=d582b03a61526876-95CE3841-FEB8-B7FC-475848C10F87EC96&jsessionid=903025569f3ede8415a641209e6a6c561d6d
(Note date of publication...other meds currently available to better treat infection)
My bottomline opinion is the fish were not properly QT/handled once they were imported to the US.

-Ryan

roclement
12-16-2009, 12:57 AM
My IQ just went up a little bit! Nice read, thanks for posting!

Rod

ShinShin
12-16-2009, 01:16 AM
I feel for all those who lost fish in this disaster. I've been there, as others here have, as well. I have made a point at going after rip-offs and exposing them, ie - RFI. I don't, however, feel that James is in this class of distributor. I was at his home ~10 days ago. We also went to his uncle's wholesale operation. His fish were sick (I had not seen this thread until tonight and did not know the magnitude of James' situation with Simply members). He was not selling these fish. He told me he was having problems and Mr. Chen was difficult to get in touch with. He was trying. This could have happened to anyone of the many sponsors on Simply who import Asian discus. James was unfortunate that it was he this time. This is a case were I feel for both sides. I am not siding with Fishking Discus here, just saying that it was unfortunate this happened to a nice guy.

I agree with Han's and Chester in that it was not the wild fish causing the epidemic. James' advice of lowering the pH to 4.5 was on target here. Lowering the temp to 80F and treating for ectoparasites may have helped some discus to survive. No one can say for certain that affected fish will be permant carriers since only the secondary infectious pathogens were identified. Personally, I wouldn't want any that were treated and "cured", though. Sounds like Discus AIDS, aka Discus Plauge, to me.

I am sorry for all who lost so many discus. James, too.

Mat

smiley
12-16-2009, 02:56 AM
I am sorry for all who lost so many discus. James, too.

Mat


After reading all through the thread...I am with you on this mate..Sometimes trading takes a toll on the seller and buyer...But I feel this could have been easily solved if Fishking did an easy compensation for the lost discus(by returning the money..We arent talking about millions here right?)...Business for them as well would have just returned to normal after the epidemic had subdued and they are confident of selling again..If it were me..i wouldnt take the chances of losing my good customers (or even sued by court for that matter)

Sometimes its practical to play by showing both sides of your cards

roclement
12-16-2009, 09:11 AM
This would be much easier on everyone if comunication was maintained via e-mail or phone conversations. The issue I and others have is that James does not reply to e-mails or phone calls in a timely manner, says one think like "all losses will be compensated" and then dissapears for days without news.

I can understand any importer having problems, and I do feel for them as I do believe that their initial intention was good, however, they knew the fish were notwell to start with and shipped them anyway, and after the problems begin comunicating with them has become impossibly inconsistent. I have spoken much more with other breeders/importers this past two weeks that are offering help, support, and advice, then I have spoken to James via phone or e-mail.

Once again, as always, how difficult can it be now a days to send an e-mail, or make a phone call to someone and give them a straight answer!? That's all I am asking for.

Rod

DavidH
12-16-2009, 09:51 PM
I think I may be one of the first buyers of FK fish and now I am fighting a disease that I've been unable to fix. Cannot replace these fish at any cost. So I can feel for all of you.
Some of these fish are Kenny's best, sure wish I had stuck with Kenny. Well live and learn, I will only buy from Kenny in the future, never received a sick fish ever from him. Thanks for being there Kenny. Trouble is now have to almost start all over what a bummer. Broke again, Dave
P.S. I would like to thank Bobtools for his input and saving my rep.!!!!!

Eddie
12-16-2009, 10:03 PM
I think I may be one of the first buyers of FK fish and now I am fighting a disease that I've been unable to fix. Cannot replace these fish at any cost. So I can feel for all of you.
Some of these fish are Kenny's best, sure wish I had stuck with Kenny. Well live and learn, I will only buy from Kenny in the future, never received a sick fish ever from him. Thanks for being there Kenny. Trouble is now have to almost start all over what a bummer. Broke again, Dave
P.S. I would like to thank Bobtools for his input and saving my rep.!!!!!

Dave, sorry to hear you were affected also. Did the fry make it?

Check your PMs

Eddie

joanr
12-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Hate to say this but there may be another reason you have not heard further from James. Insurance carriers and their lawyers.

Jhhnn
12-16-2009, 10:51 PM
Hate to say this but there may be another reason you have not heard further from James. Insurance carriers and their lawyers.

Maybe.

My sincerest sympathies to those who've suffered in this episode, particularly Bobtools.

James and Mandy have obviously suffered in this, as well. They may or may not be insured, dunno. And they may be in the position of waiting for their hatchery, their supplier, to make good on all of this, which is apparently where it originated. They could easily be in limbo just like everybody else involved, their investment hanging in the balance, their personal finances unable to cover their customers' losses.

I just hope it all works out.

roclement
12-16-2009, 11:43 PM
I spoke with James today, got him on the phone in the first try. I am also aware that he spoke with others affected and is proposing some arrangements to compensate people for their loses. I cannot speak for others but I am considering his offer.

If I choose to accept his offer, and it goes through as expected I will consider matters resolved.

I'll keep you posted.

Rod

fish4fun
12-17-2009, 01:22 AM
I spoke with James today, got him on the phone in the first try. I am also aware that he spoke with others affected and is proposing some arrangements to compensate people for their loses. I cannot speak for others but I am considering his offer.

If I choose to accept his offer, and it goes through as expected I will consider matters resolved.

I'll keep you posted.

Rod

what was the offer?

pcsb23
12-17-2009, 05:50 AM
Folks, I have stayed out of this very sad episode, but please keep to the matter in hand.

It is a difficult balance with threads like these knowing which non related comments to leave and which to remove. I have left the sympathetic ones, but I have removed the ones that outright attack people without any direct personal experience (and one defending that attack!).

Rod, Bob and all the other affected you have my deepest sympathies, hang in there guys.

roclement
12-17-2009, 09:23 AM
Thank you Paul!

I believe James is contacting everyone affected, if not call him. I do not want to post what the offer is untill I see some solid proof of it happening as in many times during this whole ordeal, things were said and not followed through. I am afraid that if I post what the offer is, people may consider this resolved, it is not. Not untill everyone affected has actually been compensated, not promissed to receive it by James.

Rod

rht1231
12-17-2009, 05:35 PM
Hi Rod,

This is good to hear that James is doing the right thing since there have been so much negativity and at times hostility. Again, when he realized how frustrated I was with my fish, he offered me my money back and I believe he was sincere and honest. Maybe this is just part of becoming a great sponsor?

Ryan

roclement
12-17-2009, 07:34 PM
Here is my e-mail to James that just went out...


"James,

I would like to inform you that I am declining you offer for replacement fish from Fishking. I understand your position and hope that all the others affected can find comfort in your offer and receive great fish, quality stock that will make them happy.

I just can't get to trust the idea of getting Fishking fish into my home again, there is something to be said about opening myself for yet another fiasco with shipping and disease, I just don't want to risk it. My stance from day one was that I would accept replacement fish from other breeders and importers but not from Fishking and I can't find a single good reason to change my point of view. Even with your offer of choosing whatever I want from the catalogue.

I understand that you can't offer me cash compensation because you would open yourself up to everyone wanting that option so I choose to receive nothing, not because I think your offer is good, but because I have no other choice in the matter. There is no sense in pursuing this any further since I know most if not all people affected will or already have accepted your offer. My financial lost was small and the awareness that all of this brought towards the issue is reward enough for me.

I honestly hope that you keep your side of the promise to all of them and send them prime quality, disease free stock that puts this all behind us. In the future I highly recommend that you follow your own motto of providing the best customer service and high quality, disease free fish.

So I consider this matter finished. Even if I stand alone in my principles, I don't judge anyone that has accepted your offer, every one's situation is different, and their losses might have been greater. I wish everyone the best of luck and hope that in the very near future we are talking about the fish that came as replacements in a positive light and from many happy people.

Al, a personal thanks to you and all the MODS in Simply for standing by me in all of this and for keeping the forum clean and objective. Simply is a great tool for knowledge and for the growth of our hobby.

James, you will not hear from me again. I wish you and Mandy the best of luck in your future endeavours.

Sincerely,

Rod Clement"


Thanks everyone for your support, happy fish keeping to all of you! I will be contacting some of the other sponsors looking for some fish soon!

Rod Clement

Eddie
12-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Very humble response Rod, I know where you are coming from.

Take care and wish you the best with your fish in the future, Happy Holidays!


Eddie

andyg
12-17-2009, 08:47 PM
:well said rod and may i say i agree with you 100% now all that remains to be seen is james response to this take care and i wish you all the best for the
future :):)

roclement
12-17-2009, 08:59 PM
Thanks guys...I don't expect response from James, I am satisfied with the outcome, hopefully everyone involved will get some satisfaction and we can all move on.

Rod

DiscusFreakaZoid
12-17-2009, 10:40 PM
good job handling this Rod from start to finish and im glad you reached a peaceful end. Now that christmas is around the corner and new years you can focus on that plus re stocking. I hope everyone else including Fishking resolve this so we can all move on and learn from this. Discus is hard but Life Is Harder. Lets Rejoice our passion/hobbies even more next yr. Ok time to watch Jersey Shore.




"Keep Fish/Hope Alive":alien: Booyashaka

BOBT00LS
12-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Rod I totally understand where you are coming from. Its been a long two and a half weeks, filled with alot of stress, anger, and confusion. Offers have been made but at this point they are only words and promises until they are fulfilled. Your a man of strong morals and principles. For that Simply is fortunate to have you here. Now, enough sucking up. :D The good news is that test fish are in transit at this very moment thanks to the one and only Hans. Our tanks will be stocked and come alive very shortly down the road !


Bob

RLorts
12-18-2009, 08:22 AM
Reading about this and seeing the pics is sickening. It is nice that some of you have somewhat of a closure, but I have to ask what is the source/cause of this outbreak. Is it a farm overseas that may sell to another importer and this happens all over again. Rod I understand why you chose your closure and I think I would probably do the same and I will not be buying any asian discus until I hear of the source and solution. Your transaction now appears to be complete but the underlying cause has not been resolved. However this is your thread and it appears to be coming to a close, but now what?

smiley
12-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Good man Rod...This is why i was mentioning earlier...He tried to show his cards open and now you did your part as well...After all this is why we are Humans right?

I wish Fishking realize the issues they went through and they start having good business for 2010..As for you Rod...lets kickstart our hobby& keep it running mate..

Good luck n warm wishes flow through the next year

DavidH
12-18-2009, 09:11 AM
I'm with you on replacement fish Rod, I lost a few hundred $ and will not pursue it any further.
Can't replace my own collection would cost too much, and definitely do not want any more problems. Lucky enough I seemed to have gotten away with one pair, my favorites. They in a different room, all others are gone.
Dave

roclement
12-18-2009, 09:45 AM
Reading about this and seeing the pics is sickening. It is nice that some of you have somewhat of a closure, but I have to ask what is the source/cause of this outbreak. Is it a farm overseas that may sell to another importer and this happens all over again. Rod I understand why you chose your closure and I think I would probably do the same and I will not be buying any asian discus until I hear of the source and solution. Your transaction now appears to be complete but the underlying cause has not been resolved. However this is your thread and it appears to be coming to a close, but now what?

My friend,

I think you missed the essence of this whole thread:

Vendor/Importer: Fishking Discus & Fishking Discus USA
Result: Awarness in multiple countries and continents of the issue with fish coming from their farm. Made people aware that they were not isolated issues with their fish and allowed many that choose to do so, to receive satisfaction by getting replacement fish.

My closure: I am not receiving replacement fish (my choice) or financial compensation (their choice). The awarness was achieved and I honestly believe that the Farm in question will think twice before sending out more sick fish, and their USA distributor has their own issues to deal with having to follow up on the agreed upon restitution, etc. Now it is up to those that agreed to receive replacement fish to carry the torch.

Lastly, please do not use this thread to blast Asian fish. I am very clear here whose fish these are, where they come from, and who represents them in the USA. There are multiple honest, hard working importers and breeders all over Asia and in the USA that are respponsible and carry fantastic stock. I will be buying fish from them soon. I currently have wild, German, and Asian fish in my tanks and they are all alive and well. Do not make this more than it is, one Farm, one distributor do not represent the entire Asian fish industry.

Rod Clement

mikel
12-18-2009, 10:09 AM
"one distributor do not represent the entire Asian fish industry."....

Thank you for repeating that idea. It seems that we are too quick to judge, and lump huge groups of people in catagories. There are plenty of excellent "Asian" breeders and importers and distributers. Dont insult them in a fit of anger. mike:)

seanyuki
12-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Those discus that I got from James(fishkingdiscus) are doing fine from his last shipment.....I have accepted their offer..... and still waiting for the laboratory results and if not airborne virus and may be able to save them by giving them the right medication given by the vet to my existing stocks at home and when the new fish arrive from Mr.Chen's farm and will do own way of quarantining them.....will let everyone know when the new lab reports are out.:)

Eddie
12-18-2009, 08:16 PM
Dont wait before the fish roll over. once they roll around the tank. Saving them is too late.

Thats not exactly true.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72257&highlight=fast+furious

Decisive action and the proper treatment is the key.

KelDiscus
12-18-2009, 09:57 PM
Dear fellow Discus Keepers. I have been "part" of the purchase from James and Mandy. I have my 2 cents to add.

I talked to James, he's not running from the Simply Discus Members. He obviously is not an experienced Discus Keeper. He is admitted to me this and Mr. Chen the Dealer in my opinion is to blame. These are the reasons:

1. James was not prepared to resell Discus
2. Was not experienced enough to QT or know proper procedure to sell Discus fish to anyone besides LFSs.
3. Mr. Chen was looking to make a quick buck at our loss and the distributorship he created was someone that could never or should never sell discus on Simply or to any true Hobbyist.

I hear of the tens of thousands of dollars lost and it is grosses me out that this guy is sitting in Taiwan likely making a living on screwing you and me out of hard earned money. The diseases I have heard of I have heard of all my life. Something that could have been picked up from BIO of the re-seller. Or worse the Wholesaler himself doesn't care and is getting out of the business or wanted a quick buck. I heard the facts from James, there is no way to know for sure, but YOU CHECK YOUR RESELLER, you investigate and drill him to know if he's your MAN. If your a true Wholesaler? This is all very Dark Age Discus

Goes to show you NEVER EVER EVER BUY from a guy without QT, you put that QT tank in a Plastic Bubble and you Pray that it's something that will not harm you other fish, regardless of the QT which is not 100%. I am not the most experienced individual here. Though I'm guessing like myself this procedure wasn't done properly by the Buyers? Probably not, the fact that FishKing ever made it as a Sponsor the fact that James and Mandy ever sold fish is beyond me.

This is Discus. James and Mandy are nice enough people, they are in business. They do not understand what they got into business with they do not understand Discus. I do enough to say the above. I have kept and now bred Discus and dealt with all sorts of shady dealers/dealings at this point. Though my Dad does most of the heavy lifting as far as the fine tuning this is nothing new. We will all be that much more careful in the future

At this time of year I'd say lay off the guy, let bygones be bygones and the Lessons are not etched on all our foreheads, *do not buy from Nobodies.*


Sincerely Your Friend in Suffering out more money than I would like to part with and will get no reimbursement Kel!

Discus-Hans
12-18-2009, 10:22 PM
Dear fellow Discus Keepers. I have been "part" of the purchase from James and Mandy. I have my 2 cents to add.

I talked to James, he's not running from the Simply Discus Members. He obviously is not an experienced Discus Keeper. He is admitted to me this and Mr. Chen the Dealer in my opinion is to blame. These are the reasons:

1. James was not prepared to resell Discus
2. Was not experienced enough to QT or know proper procedure to sell Discus fish to anyone besides LFSs.
3. Mr. Chen was looking to make a quick buck at our loss and the distributorship he created was someone that could never or should never sell discus on Simply or to any true Hobbyist.

I hear of the tens of thousands of dollars lost and it is grosses me out that this guy is sitting in Taiwan likely making a living on screwing you and me out of hard earned money. The diseases I have heard of I have heard of all my life. Something that could have been picked up from BIO of the re-seller. Or worse the Wholesaler himself doesn't care and is getting out of the business or wanted a quick buck. I heard the facts from James, there is no way to know for sure, but YOU CHECK YOUR RESELLER, you investigate and drill him to know if he's your MAN. If your a true Wholesaler? This is all very Dark Age Discus

Goes to show you NEVER EVER EVER BUY from a guy without QT, you put that QT tank in a Plastic Bubble and you Pray that it's something that will not harm you other fish, regardless of the QT which is not 100%. I am not the most experienced individual here. Though I'm guessing like myself this procedure wasn't done properly by the Buyers? Probably not, the fact that FishKing ever made it as a Sponsor the fact that James and Mandy ever sold fish is beyond me.

This is Discus. James and Mandy are nice enough people, they are in business. They do not understand what they got into business with they do not understand Discus. I do enough to say the above. I have kept and now bred Discus and dealt with all sorts of shady dealers/dealings at this point. Though my Dad does most of the heavy lifting as far as the fine tuning this is nothing new. We will all be that much more careful in the future

At this time of year I'd say lay off the guy, let bygones be bygones and the Lessons are not etched on all our foreheads, *do not buy from Nobodies.*


Sincerely Your Friend in Suffering out more money than I would like to part with and will get no reimbursement Kel!

Maybe i do see it all wrong, but I think this is a very strange post. Everybody is allowed to post what they want (within the Simply rules)

But what really hit me wrong and than I mean REALLY WRONG is:

2. Was not experienced enough to QT or know proper procedure to sell Discus fish to anyone besides LFSs.

before I say something can you explain this to me a little more? What's different in selling to private people as to a store?? It's the same Discus that suffer or not??

Hans

roclement
12-18-2009, 10:56 PM
Kel,

I have no clue where you are coming from but this matter was laid to rest already, your post is just going to serve to inflame things again...

Al, Paul, Dan...can we please close this thread? Please!

Rod

pcsb23
12-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Agree with Rod on this, for now the thread is closed as it's purpose has been served.