Beginners please read!

[rickztahone]

ok i've been pondering doing this thread for quite a while. here is what got me thinking about it in the first place... Have you ever (as an active SD member) looked at a beginners thread and know by the title what they are asking? and sometimes not even open it due to this? I'm thinking of making this thread one in which it wraps all of those beginners questions and answers them in one thread. also, i would love for everyone to contribute with something they would consider a "noob" question and answer. please do not use acronyms since most new members are not yet aware of them, if you do please put the meaning in parenthesis. With that being said i will go first with a few:

1: The general rule of thumb in regards to the question "how many discus can you keep in a tank?" is 1 Discus per 10g of water. There are also other contributing factors to this rule, ex., if you have a densely planted tank and/or large driftwood pieces it reduces that number per amount of water. other dither fish also are a contributing factor.

2: Why do most SD members use BB (bare bottom) tanks?
-This is definitely not a rule because there are many here who have successfully raised discus to their potential in non-BB tanks. The reason why most (including myself) use BB tanks is due to the fact that they are much easier to clean, simple as that. again, it can and has been done without a BB setting but it gives you a better rate of success to start with a BB tank.

3: Can you use gravel?
-IMHO (in my humble opinion) gravel is one of the worst substrates to have. I am speaking on personal experience here and i can tell you that cleaning gravel is no easy matter. once you go to a BB tank and actually see how much waste a discus can produce you will see why gravel is such a pain to keep clean. sand is much more favorable because small debris can not really penetrate it like in gravel.

4: Does dark substrate and/or a dark background make discus turn dark?
-for the most part, yes. dark backgrounds and/or dark substrates can cause discus to become more dark in color, especially PB's (pigeon blood discus) since they show more peppering in such a setting. lighter color are definitely better to show off discus colors. the exception to this rule is of course Albino discus since they do not show any peppering and/or darkening. they are a perfect candidate for a tank that has a permanent dark background, ex., reef ready tank.

5: What medications to keep on hand?
-This is definitely not a necessity but it is always good to be prepared for some type of disease in your tank. here are some that IMO are good to keep handy:
-Levamisole
-Epsom Salt
-regular cooking salt
-Metronidazole
-Praziquantel
-Kanamycin
-Furan 2
-fenbendazole
-Potassium Permanganate (PP)
here is a link to where you can get some medicated flakes:
http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedicated.htm

These are of course not all necessary to keep on hand but are some of the most common ones to keep on hand.

6: Is there a thread where it shows the different types of discus strains?
-Indeed there is and it was started by yours truly here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71055

7: "how do i disinfect my current tank?"
- one of the most common ways to disinfect tanks is bleach with a dilution of 1:10 ratio of bleach to water respectively. PP (Potassium Permanganate) can also be used to disinfect tanks/fish/plants but the proper measurement i do not have, please visit this post by Al in regards to PP:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=70066

8: "how many times should i feed my fish?"
- this is a very subjective answer because everyone has their own opinion of what is optimal. for example, i feed my fish roughly 5-6 times a day with a well balanced diet while others only feed twice daily with staple foods (staple-main diet food). one of the reasons to use BB tanks is the fact that the high amounts of food that most of us use very quickly pollute the water column, which brings me to my next point...

9: "how many water changes (WC) should i be doing"?
-again, this is subjective but the rule of thumb is usually to keep your nitrates down in the neighborhood of 20 or under. if you can achieve this then you should be fine in regards to your feeding regimen and the amount of water you change. for example, in my 55g (which houses my juveniles) i use to do WC's on a daily basis but financially it became something i could no longer do so i had to push it back to every-other-day WC's and i have not seen any negative effects thus far. also, my large 125g tank houses my adults and i only feed them 2-3 times daily lightly. i only change water roughly every week or less. the bio-load is light so i feel i can get away with that. it is a thing that has to be played by ear depending on your conditions, more fish, more food, more bioload, more WC's needed.

10: "when do adults become adults?"
-like most things on this list this is subjective. the general rule is that at 1yr to 18months discus become adults. a discus can not be aged by size solely. reason being, an adult discus can be 2" in size. therefore, knowing the age of your discus from your supplier/breeder is best so that you know it's time line. there are other stages before adulthood which goes like this chronologically; fry (baby discus), juveniles, and sub-adults. these are very difficult to pinpoint in regards to aging but that should give you the general idea.

11: "what does TL and SL mean?"
-The way most of us on SD measure a discus is from the tip of the lips to the end of the tail fin (caudal fin), this is considered TL (total length). others measure discus in SL (standard length) which means from the tip of the lips to the base of the tail fin (the peduncle, excluding the tail fin).

12: "where is the best place to buy discus?"
-from one of our sponsors:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42

13: "is QT (quarantine) really necessary?"
-absolutely! it is one of the most important rules in our forum. when you QT discus you do it to see how they react to your water. you see how they look after a few weeks, check that they do not develop any disease issues. It is best to dedicate equipment specifically for each tank, ex., a QT should have their own nets/filters/heaters/hoses/sponges...everything! you should not interchange anything amongst your healthy current stock and QT tanks to avoid spreading anything. with all this said and done there are such things as airborne diseases (unfortantely this is currently going on with some of our fellow members) which can not really be contained. is this were to happen then i strongly suggest starting a new thread so that you can get proper help from our SD members. you should always put a fish from your current stock in with the QT fish once the QT period is over to see how that discus reacts to the QT fish. leave it in there for a couple weeks. if nothing out of the ordinary happens then you should be good.

14: "which is the best way to cycle a tank"
-there are a few known ways to do this, one being pure ammonia which fellow members have been able to buy from Ace hardware and places of that nature. this takes long but is by far one of the best ways to cycle a tank because it is completely free of any outside contaminants. you can also use a sponge filter that has been seeded in another tank (has to have been in the other tank for at least a month). This is not an optimal way to do the cycle because you are subjecting new fish to anything that your current stock has. there are other methods as well but i will not go into detail since i do not have first hand knowledge of them. one being miracle grow, another being the instant bio bottles, some of which have been known to actually work and help the cycle process

15: "do i need RO water for my discus"
-in one word, NO, you do not need RO water for discus. discus are not as picky with water as most people make them out to be. many here only use RO for breeding. if this becomes something you would like to do then by the time you get to this stage you will know how to run through our SD site :D. discus have been known to thrive in all pH ranges. the least amount of chemicals you use the better. sometimes aging water is necessary when your pH is not stable. i quick way to check if your pH is stable is to pour some water into a bucket with a heater and air from an air pump and test the water with a pH liquid test and/or pH pen/probe. test the pH after 24hrs and if it is the same your pH is stable, if it is not then it is unstable and you will need to age your water in order to do WC's.

there are many others that do not come to mind but these are just a few to get the ball rolling. please feel free to add anything to the ones above or start new ones. the goal is to help new members in getting answers in one lump some.

To all the new members, welcome and please read all of our stickies, they are there for a reason and they are all very informative. thanks everyone

[smiley]

I raise my hands and plead " Sticky please " :)

Lot of info for the newbies

[MGKelly]

Awesome post!!!!! :thumbsup: Thank You!!

Joe

[Eddie]

Great post Ricardo!

Eddie

[mikel]

This is really an awesome Public service that you did!!! Thank you! mike:):):)

[seanyuki]

Good stuffs Ricardo.:)me learning everyday.

[MostlyDiscus]

Above and beyond the call of duty. Thx Ric:angel:

[hedut]

AWESOME treat Ricardo :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Schergeil]

****Thumbs Up Up Up****;)

[csarkar001]

definitely worth a sticky!

one (very) minor quip. i'd move metro to the top of list of meds to have on hand.

[rickztahone]

thank you everyone. Please feel free to add anything you feel would help new members.

[mmorris]

An interesting question is, why do people post questions when the answers are already posted multiple times in multiple places? There is already quite an inclusive list of articles under "beginners information index." It may be that they don't want to take the time to read. It may be they are unaware of the search button. It may be that they are aware of the search button, but the key words possess fewer than four letters (ph, tds, pp, etc) You are assuming, of course, that people only post these questions because they want the answer. It may be they want to make a contribution to the forum and do not know any other way of doing so. Rather than yet one more source with the same information, it might be useful to address these issues.

[Justice]

Two thumbs up! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ShinShin]

Sometimes people will also disregard info posted to another's question, although they are asking the same thing. How many times on the same page have you seen (and this is a common question for this example) "What are the white squiggly worms in my tank"? Further down the page is the question: "Wiggly, white worms swimming in my tank. What are they"? Closer to the bottom of the page you'll see something like this: I have white snake-like worms in my filter. What are they? Some people want to be spoken to directly for whatever reason. That's too bad. They miss a lot of info.

Some of the above numbered suggestions/answers to proposed questions are very subjective, while others are sound "rules" that have been proven to work over the years by experienced discus keepers. I stress the word discus keepers, not tropical fish hobbyists. Take for example the BB question. While ease of cleaning is true, a deeper looks as to why we "clean" so much more than other species keepers. Disease prevention. Substrate can and will become a place for pathogens to collect. Also, I do not belive that any discus will be grown out to its potential in a tank with substrate.

Medications kept on hand is also subjective. While I generally have some NaCl on hand, other than formalin/malachite green solution, I generally keep nothing else on hand, esp. antibiotics. Very few have outdates on them. I buy as needed, and place the remainder in my freezer. Treating with a product like Metro or kanamyacin that has been greatly denatured by time and humidity, will in the long term do more harm than good. Superbugs are becoming a problem.

I change water more more reasons than nitrate levels. In fact, I currently do not even have a nitrate test kit. There are more organics than nitrates that need to be removed. Many have gotten away from Wattley's 40% daily water changes for adults. I still believe that is best. Others have gotten tired of doing daily water changes and don't. Is this better? Time will tell. All I know is that for decades, discus experts, have subscribed to the daily water change philosophy, and I am willing to bet that the health issues many suffer aren't happening in their tanks. Fresh, clean water is an important key in discus health.

Feeding is another hot topic. Tony Silva stated in one of his columns in FAMA, that he feeds his adult breeders once a day a portion of BH the size of a kidney bean. Wattley feeds once a day, skipping a day. This is for adults. Many experts, including S. Yeng (Penang Discus, 2nd ed.) say that feeding fry more than 3 times a day leads to fat fry that do not develope finnage properly. Others say 6-10 times daily.

Water parameters do matter. Although discus are being kept in water more suited to Central American, or even East Africans, in the long term, they will become stressed and the life span will be shortened. While stable parameters are important, stable, proper parameters are best. Some people do need R/O water to successfully maintain healthy discus.

Mat

[Scribbles]

Great post Ricardo! I think that it would make a good sticky covering alot of general information. People can always ask questions or search/read if they need more specific info. The only thing that I think would be helpful if added would be that discus should be kept in a school of 5-6 unless they are a mated pair. How many of us (myself included) started our discus collection with 2 or 3 juvies from the lfs.

Chris

[tcyiu]

Some of the above numbered suggestions/answers to proposed questions are very subjective, while others are sound "rules" that have been proven to work over the years by experienced discus keepers.

...

Mat

Ricardo,
:thumbsup:
I appreciate your attempt to better organize the wealth of information for newbies'

But I agree with Mat. There are a lot of subjective answers. For me, what we do to keep our discus falls into one of 3 buckets.

- Core practices
- Common practices (common wisdom and best practices)
- Optional practices/Advanced techniques

For example, I think we would all agree that keeping water clean, stable and free of chlorine/chloramine is a core practice. How one gets there differs depending on circumstances. So daily WC is a common practice, but NOT a rule. Then of course Chad's WC regime is advanced and not for newbies.

As another example, having the extensive list of meds may be counter productive in the hand of newbies. Several of the meds fall in the bucket of common practices (metro, prazi, epsom salt ...) but not a pre-requisite for owning discus. I would argue that use of fenben, PP and H2O2 should be considered advanced practices because overdosing leads to fish suffering and possible fatalities.

This is just a suggestion. My general disposition is to minimize the number of "rules" and shift more to the area of suggested or common practices.

Tim

[Sharkbait]

I think it's a great idea to have a thread that has this information - these 'core practices.' Mainly because, for me, if I wanted to use the "search" option on this forum to look for the answers I want, it gives me 20 threads that just mention the word but may have nothing to do with what I'm looking for.

For someone who is just starting out with discus, I feel inclined to ask my own questions to the forum because I want personal help. Think of it like calling a tech support line and your only option is that dreaded machine voice that spits out answers that barely help you. It's comforting talking to real people.

[rickztahone]

Sometimes people will also disregard info posted to another's question, although they are asking the same thing. How many times on the same page have you seen (and this is a common question for this example) "What are the white squiggly worms in my tank"? Further down the page is the question: "Wiggly, white worms swimming in my tank. What are they"? Closer to the bottom of the page you'll see something like this: I have white snake-like worms in my filter. What are they? Some people want to be spoken to directly for whatever reason. That's too bad. They miss a lot of info.

Some of the above numbered suggestions/answers to proposed questions are very subjective, while others are sound "rules" that have been proven to work over the years by experienced discus keepers. I stress the word discus keepers, not tropical fish hobbyists. Take for example the BB question. While ease of cleaning is true, a deeper looks as to why we "clean" so much more than other species keepers. Disease prevention. Substrate can and will become a place for pathogens to collect. Also, I do not belive that any discus will be grown out to its potential in a tank with substrate.

Medications kept on hand is also subjective. While I generally have some NaCl on hand, other than formalin/malachite green solution, I generally keep nothing else on hand, esp. antibiotics. Very few have outdates on them. I buy as needed, and place the remainder in my freezer. Treating with a product like Metro or kanamyacin that has been greatly denatured by time and humidity, will in the long term do more harm than good. Superbugs are becoming a problem.

I change water more more reasons than nitrate levels. In fact, I currently do not even have a nitrate test kit. There are more organics than nitrates that need to be removed. Many have gotten away from Wattley's 40% daily water changes for adults. I still believe that is best. Others have gotten tired of doing daily water changes and don't. Is this better? Time will tell. All I know is that for decades, discus experts, have subscribed to the daily water change philosophy, and I am willing to bet that the health issues many suffer aren't happening in their tanks. Fresh, clean water is an important key in discus health.

Feeding is another hot topic. Tony Silva stated in one of his columns in FAMA, that he feeds his adult breeders once a day a portion of BH the size of a kidney bean. Wattley feeds once a day, skipping a day. This is for adults. Many experts, including S. Yeng (Penang Discus, 2nd ed.) say that feeding fry more than 3 times a day leads to fat fry that do not develope finnage properly. Others say 6-10 times daily.

Water parameters do matter. Although discus are being kept in water more suited to Central American, or even East Africans, in the long term, they will become stressed and the life span will be shortened. While stable parameters are important, stable, proper parameters are best. Some people do need R/O water to successfully maintain healthy discus.

Mat


Ricardo,
:thumbsup:
I appreciate your attempt to better organize the wealth of information for newbies'

But I agree with Mat. There are a lot of subjective answers. For me, what we do to keep our discus falls into one of 3 buckets.

- Core practices
- Common practices (common wisdom and best practices)
- Optional practices/Advanced techniques

For example, I think we would all agree that keeping water clean, stable and free of chlorine/chloramine is a core practice. How one gets there differs depending on circumstances. So daily WC is a common practice, but NOT a rule. Then of course Chad's WC regime is advanced and not for newbies.

As another example, having the extensive list of meds may be counter productive in the hand of newbies. Several of the meds fall in the bucket of common practices (metro, prazi, epsom salt ...) but not a pre-requisite for owning discus. I would argue that use of fenben, PP and H2O2 should be considered advanced practices because overdosing leads to fish suffering and possible fatalities.

This is just a suggestion. My general disposition is to minimize the number of "rules" and shift more to the area of suggested or common practices.

Tim

points well received. as i stated during the whole post that most of these are subjective and IME have worked. Of course i know that not everyone agrees on all points and this can be seen when just one of the questions above is asked in a separate thread. what ends up happening is that everyone has all different opinions, but what i tried to do is take the general "consensus" and include it as an answer here. that is the reason i put the disclaimer of it being "subjective". Since most of the time not all of us agree on anything specific I technically would not have been able to start this thread due to that very fact. I just wanted to have a thread where they could get a general feel of the site and if they hopefully read through the whole post they would take in a little more info then they would normally if they just started reading the new posts/stickies/etc... I assure you that my intentions were not to say "my way is the right way!", far from it, that is why i encouraged everyone to include their opinions, including rebuking my prior ones. Which is why i appreciate you both doing your part and posting your opinions, it lets the readers know that there isn't just the "one way of doing things". If this thread helps out just 1 member, it was worth it ;)

[calihawker]

If this thread helps out just 1 member, it was worth it

And THAT, is what this forum is all about!:)

Great post Ricardo!

[zamboniMan]

I think this should be Sticky

[ShinShin]

I understand what you meant. I didn't think you were stating it as "your" way.

Mat

[tcyiu]

I understand what you meant. I didn't think you were stating it as "your" way.

Mat

Me too. (Wow. I'm starting to feel like Mat's shadow :-) )

The important thing is that you were trying to help.

Tim

[GlennR]

I appreciate stickies & post like this one. They are helpful to newbi's and I enjoy reading through them for "general reading" to brush up on my knowledge.

When I have a specific question I often do a quick visual search through the appropriate forum and try to do a "search" with the search button. But the results of a search often yield an overwhelming array of post results, which are too much to wade through. You know what I mean, the "red" key words are in the 4th response on the 15th page. And even then, isn't quite what I'd been wanting to know.

So, I often "post my question" hoping that it is not too "beginner-ish" a question as to insult the "regulars". That way I receive direct personal attention and hopefully a bit of Q & A interaction to make sure I understand (and also I usually can judge who is willing to help, and also who actually knows their stuff). Also along with my question I usually ask for links to "relevant posts" which might have already answered my questions in case it's been covered in depth before. I realize as a "new guy" on any forum that it takes a while to figure out where everything is located on a board (there is a TON of info for a new member to wade through here. :)).

Thanks for such a great forum and all the work you folks have done to make it so.

peace,
Glenn

[theblondskeleton]

How about this for a newbie question:

My wife wants to know how long she needs to tolerate the 55 gallon BB tank for growing out 6 2.5" discus to about 4.5". With daily 50% water changes, and feeding 4 times/day a variety of foods, about how long can she expect to be annoyed before she can glow with admiration at the beautiful discus?

Is there anything that should be changed about the routine to make the time shorter?

I know it reads like a story problem from grade school, but... well it is. :D

The core newbie issue here is, given good practices, is there a typical length of time it takes to grow out juvies?

[rickztahone]

How about this for a newbie question:

My wife wants to know how long she needs to tolerate the 55 gallon BB tank for growing out 6 2.5" discus to about 4.5". With daily 50% water changes, and feeding 4 times/day a variety of foods, about how long can she expect to be annoyed before she can glow with admiration at the beautiful discus?

Is there anything that should be changed about the routine to make the time shorter?

I know it reads like a story problem from grade school, but... well it is. :D

The core newbie issue here is, given good practices, is there a typical length of time it takes to grow out juvies?

results will vary. i say this due to a few reasons, one being that some strains grow a lot slower than others. secondly, even given great conditions some discus are just runts, i have one in my bunch which doesn't grow as fast and i'm not sure it will ever really grow to it's potential. growing discus to 4.5" isn't that difficult, that is roughly around 6-8 month old discus w/ optimal conditions. many things can happen that might stunt your discus, but from the looks of it it seems like you are on the right track. what type of foods do you feed? how often? do all of them eat the same? do you have any pictures? when starting with 2.5" discus you have quite a challenge because they are so small. even some experienced discus hobbyists have trouble growing them out. This is not to discourage you but to encourage you to keep up the routine you have going which is a good WC schedule and depending on what you are feeding, keeping that up as well.

if you keep your discus in a BB tank it will take a few months (3-4) to get them to a good size but the best thing to do would be to keep them in there as long as possible for whenever you plan to move them out. what are your plans after grow out? will they go into a planted tank? if so, you have to keep in mind that you would have to cut back on feedings and that might hurt their growth. this is all up to you but you have some options with a BB tank. one being that you can put clay pots in there with plants which gives some good color contrast to the BB look. you can brighten the background and floor by spraying it with a lighter color (depending what you have now), that tends to brighten up a BB as well. there are options....

keep us posted

[theblondskeleton]

No discus as yet :( I'm still building my case :whip: but thanks!

The foods I plan to feed are from the SF Bay brand Freshwater Variety pack (Frozen Blood Worms, a spirulina/veggie/brine shrimp cube, and brine shrimp) as well as Sera Discus Granules. I have been debating adding beef heart to the mix for extra protein.

I know some make their own food. I understand that recipes will vary, but generally speaking, how difficult/expensive is it to make your own frozen food mix? I imagine it's cheaper than the premade cubes...

[scottthomas]

Ricardo, great post. I appreciate that you prefaced your answers (to often asked beginner questions) with the staement that it is from your own experience. However, no one could go wrong if they apply your suggestions. It is valuable (IMO) to have them listed in one place as you did. They are tried and true discus keeping practices. As to the comments about why some post questions when they are already answered numerous times: I for one have seen several answers for the same question. Often they are all correct answers. When I was new to discus this was a little confusing. We all have our own ways of doing things that work for us that many new to discus may not understand. There are certain variables that alter some of the basic principles you answered in this post. For example: I prefer stocking densities over 1 fish per 10 gallon. I feel that with frequent and large water changes that over stocking can grow larger discus as they are discouraged from breeding at until they have grown larger. Well I'm rambling now so I'll just say that it would be a good idea for beginners to start by following your suggestions and then alter them to fit their needs as they learn more about this hobby.

[Eddie]

No discus as yet :( I'm still building my case :whip: but thanks!

The foods I plan to feed are from the SF Bay brand Freshwater Variety pack (Frozen Blood Worms, a spirulina/veggie/brine shrimp cube, and brine shrimp) as well as Sera Discus Granules. I have been debating adding beef heart to the mix for extra protein.

I know some make their own food. I understand that recipes will vary, but generally speaking, how difficult/expensive is it to make your own frozen food mix? I imagine it's cheaper than the premade cubes...

Its not that tough really and SUPER inexpensive. Plus it goes a long way! Here are few mixes I've made. It really is amazing, putting that extra touch in keeping your fish healthy and growing strong.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75425&highlight=thanksgiving

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69130&highlight=super+tuna

HTH

Eddie

[rickztahone]

Its not that tough really and SUPER inexpensive. Plus it goes a long way! Here are few mixes I've made. It really is amazing, putting that extra touch in keeping your fish healthy and growing strong.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75425&highlight=thanksgiving

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69130&highlight=super+tuna

HTH

Eddie

i highly recommend ANY of Eddie's mixes

[rickztahone]

Resurrection
I happened to be cruising old threads and came across this one that I started almost 6yrs ago! Time flies, but if you notice, everything pretty much lines up with what I say today to people here on the board. These weren't rules, but more like "guildlines" and to show how I do things. The only thing I'd probably change would be the meds on hand point. Today, I prefer to buy the med when I need it. Only keep salts around and maybe metro, but don't even have that currently on hand either.

Start with good quality and your discus will have a nice healthy life.

[Filip]

Nice summary Rick.After 8 years non of your guidelines are outdatet.