OK I'm going Co2 but.................................

[DocB]

Which system should I get?
I see on dr fosters:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+9935&pcatid=9935

and

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3747+15526&pcatid=15526

This is for a 55 gal planted office tank.
I have been just using seachem excel but would like better results
How complex do I have do get into this?
I realize we are a complex gadget driven group by nature but this is an office where I need to make small waves.
How should i introduce co2?
I am leaning towards the second dr foster option but dont know what I am talking about?!?:confused:I have searched but can someone direct me to a thread if this has already been discused (pun intended!)
Just how complicated is this? The info I have found is somewhat vague......

[yikesjason]

The first one will work a lot better for you, that second one is for paintball cylinders and that wouldn't last very long on a 55 gal.

[smsimcik]

I would also go with the first one. I would attach it to a 5# CO2 tank that you get from a welder's supply and run it at about 3-4 bubbles/second. Five pounds of CO2 at that rate will last about 5-6 months before needing to be refilled.

[rich815]

The first one is better than the second but asking here is not nearly as good for asking about CO2 systems than over at plantedtank.net, aquaticplantcentral.com or barrreport.com

Personally I'd be slightly patient and buy a used regulator from the FS forums over there or here, and then add my own solenoid, needle valve and diffuser or reactor. I found used Rex Grigg and Victor regulators for the price of new JBJ and Milwaukee ones. Much better regulators against end of tank dump and such...

[dbfzurowski]

hey,
I my self am trying to get into hi-tech planted tanks. As far as co2, I did at least 10hours of research over the past months. From what i found
MA957 regulator and SMS122 ph controller is the best stuff you can get.
You don't have to worry about setting up timers, running air stones during night, ph ups and downs. You set a ph number on the controller and that's it.
http://www.atomicmall.com/view.php?id=622536
These items were also recommended by some of the established forum members.

Best of luck, dominik.

[rich815]

pH controllers used with CO2: To each his own of course and it sounds like they work for the most part but are they really needed?

Personally after looking into it and getting advice from many successful planted tank people I decided a pH controller was not needed or worth it. I use a good but inexpensive timer on my solenoid and have never needed or used any airstones at night and know of few others that use them. I did not want to spend the money for one or deal with the calibration, and the needed changing the probes. No issues in over two years now for me:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/rich815/IMG_0463-1.jpg

This poll speaks volumes as to what many planted tank people use:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/80594-poll-co2-controller-timer.html

About 80%/20% timer to controller. There's often a lot of them for sale in the FS sections of those sites, plus often when someone posts a question about them someone invariably chimes in saying they have one for sale if the person wants it. That says a lot.

Use the search feature on the planted tank sites I mentioned and you might find it useful in hearing what others think of pH controllers. Here's one in particular:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/91075-ph-controller-must.html

(be sure to see post #9 of that thread from Tom Barr (Plantbrain), a very knowledgeable planted tank person who's tanks I've seen in person: amazing.)

I think this quote sums it up as for my feelings about them:

"In my opinion the biggest problem with a pH controller is that it absorbs too much of your budget that could and should have gone to getting a better quality regulator and needle valve. Those are the two pieces of equipment that are the heart of a pressurized CO2 system, and there is where extra dollars can make a very big impact."

[zamboniMan]

Personally I prefer not to use the pH controller CO2 setup. I would go with the first link you posted and get a 5 or 10 lb tank to go with it. Alot of people do I don't recommend it for someone new to CO2 because of the following:
1. If you don't lower it over time you'll burn through alot of extra CO2.
2. It's easier to learn how to mess with CO2 the old way (atleast in my opinion)

Either way I recommend that you get a drop checker.
1. The plants are only going to use so much CO2 and this will help you get it set. (Make sure you use 4dkH water in it, you can use tank water but it won't be as sensitive)
2. This way your not wasting CO2.

Also what kind of lights do you have? If your using the old T8's then I'd upgrade to T5's. You'll get more bang for your buck with T5's than T8's.

Also if you can I'd use a CO2 reactor inline with a canister filter.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9918

You can get as complex or as simple as you like. Personally I don't beleive in dosing my tanks (nor am I fan of Tom Barr). On rare occasion I may had Seachem flourish. My CO2 runs on a timer and I have air pumps running at night.

Hope that helps,
Josh

[rich815]

....From what i found
MA957 regulator and SMS122 ph controller is the best stuff you can get.

No offense, and I've used the Milwaukee MA957 regulator, but I have never heard of it being referred to as the best by any means. Quite the contrary many report issues with them. I never had any issues myself which was forunate. Victor or Rex Grigg ones or some of the ones from greenleafaquariums are considered some of the best.

[jerzguy]

I am a newbie. I use this one in my 125 planted discus and the controller is very useful when the PH goes way below 6.5(I know it should not). I use timer and airstone for night.

http://www.aquabuys.com/page/aqb/PROD/co2_set_dlx_06

Note: I did not buy from them but I have the exact setup with 10 lb bottle.

[Larry Bugg]

I would either buy one from Greenleaf or Sumo. Orlando at Greenleaf and the two guys at Sumo are long time Plantedtank.net members and both offer excellent products with excellent service. These are hobbiest that care about othere hobbiest.
http://sumoregulator.com/PremierLine.html
http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/

As far as Milwaukee is concerned, I don't know how anyone can claim they are the best. Doesn't take a lot of googleing to find there are a lot of dissatisfied customers. I am one of them. I bought two and never could get consistient flow out of them. I ended up scrapping the stock needle valve and replacing it for a better one. The solenoid burned out on one of them also. I am also in the group of people that don't see the need for a PH controller. With a solenoid and a timer you can set the Co2 flow and be done with it. There is no need for running Co2 when the lights are off so with a timer you save the wasted Co2 at night. I have had 3 high tech tanks running for a couple of years so this is my opinion based on my experience.

It is also quite easy to put a system together yourself. For my third unit I bought a Victor 2 stage regulator on Ebay and them bought the solenoid, needle valve and connectors from Sumo. Pretty easy to do.

[dbfzurowski]

Ok,so milwaukee may not be the best, but its $180 for the regulator and the controller. How many days do you spent setting up proper bubble counts for desired ph? and how accurate are you with the color ph tester? for me its always +/- least .2 ph. When to turn it on/off to avoid ph drops?
Every time you want to raise/drop PH in your tank, for whatever reason, you have to again, start messing with the bubble counts, and how many times does the PH go up down before you get it right?
I'm sorry but, especially for a newbie this setup seems right. You can google anything and get bad reviews, thats how it works. People get mad when something breaks down and start posting stuff. Trust me, I think I've read most if not all of the bad reviews for the milwaukee products and i have to say most are user error.
This is just my opinion, everyone is entitled to one.

dominik.

[rich815]

Ok,so milwaukee may not be the best, but its $180 for the regulator and the controller. How many days do you spent setting up proper bubble counts for desired ph? and how accurate are you with the color ph tester? for me its always +/- least .2 ph. When to turn it on/off to avoid ph drops?
Every time you want to raise/drop PH in your tank, for whatever reason, you have to again, start messing with the bubble counts, and how many times does the PH go up down before you get it right?
I'm sorry but, especially for a newbie this setup seems right. You can google anything and get bad reviews, thats how it works. People get mad when something breaks down and start posting stuff. Trust me, I think I've read most if not all of the bad reviews for the milwaukee products and i have to say most are user error.
This is just my opinion, everyone is entitled to one.

dominik.

I've yet to see any bad reviews on Victor or Grigg regulators. I do not think I've bothered messing with my needle valve and bubble counters since the first few days of setting up my CO2 system. And besides the pH drop from CO2 is nothing significant to worry about particularly because it's gradual. It's pH drops from KH that really bother fish and can cause issues.

[DocB]

Yeah some people swear by ford/chevy and visa versa

But after reading the stickys in this particular forum, especially: Relationship between CO2, KH, and pH
I am starting to have second thoughts. This is supposed to be fun

Mainly - I enjoy a planted tank, I enjoy discus. After after many months (using excel flourish) the plants began to look, well, not so great. A little rangey, scraggly. Just not lush like all the wonderful pics I see on this forum.They kept growing but were slowly losing the battle with some sort of dentalflosslike moss/snails etc.
I had a discus die on me and the rest are in a hospital tank right now.
So it was a good time to clean out all the funky stuff. I'll replant and return the healthy discus so I figured its a good time to look into CO2.

But I have a sneaking suspicion I am crossing into that techno/geeky level where effort exceeds results.
Don't get me wrong - there are incredible tanks I see here but some (you know who know who you are) have gone way over the edge and although my office mates already think I have gone over, I do feel the pull and I wonder if this CO2 thingie is the gateway drug to:
ReverseOsmosisuUvSterilizationSumpFilterCalciumRea ctorNitrateReductorT8T5HoOzonegGeneratorAmazonSoil DigitalEverything100%DailyWaterChangesAgeingTanks6 stageRo/DiFISHROOMSforGodssake!
I'm gonna go diving down to the Amazon and catch my own discus or maybe just get a LFS discus, a plastic plant and a little pirate chest that occasionally blows bubbles, I can't decide...;)

[DocB]

Much better regulators against end of tank dump and such...
What is end of tank dump?
What is the result and how do I avoid it?
Also:
If CO2 addition affects PH does the PH change with my aged water changes enough to affect the fish?

[Larry Bugg]

What is end of tank dump?
What is the result and how do I avoid it?
Also:
If CO2 addition affects PH does the PH change with my aged water changes enough to affect the fish?

End of tank dump - on a single stage regulator there is a possibility that when the tank is almost empty and the pressure is very low that the regulator will release the remaining amount of Co2 all at once. With a 2 stage regulator (like a victor) the second stage prevents the dump. I have both single and 2 stage regulators and have never had this issue but is is something to consider.

Co2 does indeed affect PH. If you have the correct amount of Co2 going into your tank then the PH will drop about a full point. So if your water without Co2 is at 7.4 then with Co2 it should drop to around 6.4 or a little higher. I have always been told that a PH drop due to Co2 does not affect fish. Now here is something to consider to back that up. A large number of us that run Co2 tanks have the system set up on timers so the Co2 is not running when the lights are off. This means that when the Co2 comes on the PH drops by a point. When the C02 goes off at night the Co2 goes back up by a point. I have 3 high tec tanks set up and have NEVER experienced any issue with my fish due to this change.


How many days do you spent setting up proper bubble counts for desired ph? and how accurate are you with the color ph tester? for me its always +/- least .2 ph. When to turn it on/off to avoid ph drops?

I don't spend any days setting up the bubble count. Once set I am done with it. When I change the tank out I may spend a few minutes on it and then come back in a hour or two and check on it again but the tanks last several months so that is no real issue. If you have a good needle valve you should not have to constantly reset, it should be very consistent. That is where you get what you paid for. I tried the cheaper route by buying the Milwaukee unit at about $75 and then had to retrofit to get the consistency I was looking for. Just speaking from experience. I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. As far as the ph test, I haven't done ph test in a long, long time. Don't need too because it is consistent. the only time I do a PH test anymore is when setting up a new tank in the fish room. I do use a drop checker to make sure I am in the proper range. As mentioned above the PH swing is not an issue.

[rich815]

Here you go, jump on this as fast as you can:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6763-For-sale-Victor-VTS253A-1993-Clippard-solenoid-Swagelok-with-Vernier-handle

That price is SHIPPED too.

[Larry Bugg]

Here you go, jump on this as fast as you can:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6763-For-sale-Victor-VTS253A-1993-Clippard-solenoid-Swagelok-with-Vernier-handle

That price is SHIPPED too.

That's a great deal. I have a 253A. Excellent regulator. I paid about $50 for it on Ebay and then had to buy the solenoid, needle valve and fittings so I put another $50 to $60 into it. This one is ready to go. This will rival the units you see for $180 to $200 easily.

[Sharkbait]

I have a Milwaukee Regulator and SMS controller...both seem to be working fine for me. I did notice 'some' inconsistency with the bubble count at first, but now it seems to have levelled off.

I like the idea of the controller. I have a tendancy to always want to know what my PH is in my tank....saves a lot on test kits ;) A bit OCD perhaps.

Doc B: Don't think of the CO2 setup as a 'gateway drug.' I'm not very handy and had to learn a bit of plumbing to hook my reactor up to my filter. THAT was fun. If there's anything that I've learned about this hobby, is you learn as much as you want to learn. You want something to happen in your tank, do the research, get it right the first time. My fiance always tells me that whenever I 'change' something (add equipment, ...even change the aquascape) that something will be effected that will result in more money.

C02 is great. But I always say that any investment (and fish ARE an investment) that you should get back what you put in. C02 is necessary if you want to achieve lush, more difficult plants. You CAN get away with a low-tech tank (low light, low demanding plants, low fertilizer schedule, No C02). They will grow slower, obviously, but they will still grow.

You have options. You just have to know what you want :)

[rich815]

That's a great deal. I have a 253A. Excellent regulator. I paid about $50 for it on Ebay and then had to buy the solenoid, needle valve and fittings so I put another $50 to $60 into it. This one is ready to go. This will rival the units you see for $180 to $200 easily.

Looks like it's pending payment already. I almost bought it to save for that 60 gal cube with more discus I'm hoping to set up some day when the wife's got her back turned....

[ChloroPhil]

I run one of these http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/co2-regulators/choice-co2-regulator.html on one of my tanks and think it's great. I've also run Milwaukee brand CO2 regulator-solenoid-controller systems and find them to be less than ideal. I will be using the pH meter on the new tank just to have a continuous readout of pH to satisfy some curiousity I've got but it won't be hooked up to the CO2 right away, if ever.

In my experience CO2 is THE BEST investment anyone wishing to keep plants can make. It's very important to buy quality right from the start in order to protect your investment in livestock as well as the CO2 hardware itself. Like Bugman's said so well, cheap hardware will cost more in the long run. Get a good two stage regulator with a reliable solenoid and needle valve. Plug the solenoid into your light timer so they're on/off at the same time and spend a day or two dialing in the gas release rate and you're golden until the tank dies. You'll need to fiddle with the needle valve again after switching the regulator to a new tank but that's just minor tweaking to correct for tiny changes that happen during swapping.

You won't even have to change your lighting or fertilization regimen. All you'll need to do is set the CO2 to match the light and fertilization and you're done.

Cheers,
Phil

[darbex]

You could always build a CO2 Reactor for about $30. I took some PVC and drilled a hole for a line from my CO2 tank with an air stone that injects it in. The pump runs water through it and to the tank. I do not use a pH controller or a timer. I have learned that running CO2 24/7 is fine and reduces the time it takes the plants to begin getting full use of the CO2 since the water really needs to be saturated.