Found a Wild blue Heckel at LFS.

[caparzo]

It has been there for about a year.. they were asking $100.00 but the owner has gotten tired of trying to sell him and has added tank mates. Since then His appearance has degraded and is not great but they said they would sell him for $50.00 as to not see him waste away. I watched him eat black worms but he was not very aggressive. Is this a good thing to get into? Want to give him some TLC but don't want to lose 50 bucks doin it. anyone?


fyi. sex unknown, size apprx. 5.5-6"

[William Palumbo]

Leave it there. If it's not eating live BW's with gusto, good luck getting it to eat anything else. And if he needs meds to clean him up, that cheap $50 price tag goes way up. Save your money and find someone(sponsor) who is selling healthy ones. BTW..1 Heckel in a tank by himself is not good. 1+5 more is better...Bill

[caparzo]

If I did pick him up.. hypothetically, After QT and acclimation, would he be ok with my other 5, the pecking order now seems to be a circle with no one fish being singled out and is actually working out very nicely. I do have a single Rosey Discus sex unknown size about 3" .. the rose has a heckel like appearance.. and he could use some company so I was thinking this would make a good tank mate as he seems mild . I asked the seller to step up the feedings and if I see a change when I go back tomorrow I may have to pick him up.. I've never seen local wild heckels. So the juice may be worth the squeeze IF I can clean him up. Thanks for your advice though.

[ILuvTropicalFish]

For what it is worth, don't do it. I have picked up fish that were not acting quite right, and put alot of heart and sole into making them better, and then they don't get better. It is hard enough to acclimate a seemingly healthy discus from a LFS. They have introduced other fish to the tank which exposes him to who knows what. A single discus is not going to show it's true personality until it is well and with others. Save your money and time and trouble for a healthy fish. [she steps off soap box now]

[Tito]

That fish should have sold for that price when it first hit the store. To get a wild caught fish from the amazon is well worth the money and $100 is not a lot for a wild caught heckel.

This is why petshops do what they do. They just can't make the money to pay their rent.

[alan j t]

i have taken in discus that werre not in the best conditions.i had them in seperate tanks and i lost half my original stock.i was pissed and since have not bought any new discus yet.

[samuelkl]

you can easily find wild heckels on aquabid for way cheaper. look for snookn21. hes probably one of the best sellers on aquabid and has lots of wild discus in stock. i just received a shipment of 8 med heckels from him today and they are spectacular. i recommend him wholeheartedly. he does an amazing job packaging the fish and is very customer friendly.

tell him you came from the simplydiscus forum and he will treat you well. i will post pics of my heckels after they acclimate to the bb tank i have em in

[caparzo]

That would be great! I'd love to see some pics of the Hecks you got.. I have still not ruled out picking this lone wolf up. I'm a sucker for a charity case... I think I can do him good, I will keep you posted if things go that way. Thanks again everyone.

[Eddie]

Leave it there. If it's not eating live BW's with gusto, good luck getting it to eat anything else. And if he needs meds to clean him up, that cheap $50 price tag goes way up. Save your money and find someone(sponsor) who is selling healthy ones. BTW..1 Heckel in a tank by himself is not good. 1+5 more is better...Bill

Ditto

[Apistomaster]

First off, $50 is not a bargain price for a Heckel.
Wild Discus wasting away at a pet shop is not like rescuing a dog or cat from the shelter.
The fate of Discus is sealed early and it is rarely reversible unless the duration of mistreatment is very brief. It would be kinder to rap this heckel hard on it's head and put it out of it's misery.
Let that one die on them and buy 2 at half the price plus another 4 at least from snook or other reputable Discus specialist. Heckels live in herds so they should be kept with as many of their OWN KIND as your tank can safely support.

Do not keep them with domestics or other Discus species.

You want to see how nice Heckels can be?
Keep them in water with a pH about 4.0 and 20 ppm TDS at 86*F.
Fine, light colored sandy bottom, some tangles of wood and some few floating plants.

[caparzo]

^^^ whatever^^^ I take offense to this line of thinking. He may not be a SHOW fish but it's alive.. and I did pick it up yesterday for 40 dollars..took it home salted him down and added some black water extract.. he ate 2 cubes of Hikari.. and already looks better. He has the company of one Rosie (Alencer) if anyone wants to send me a couple more tank mates then feel free, but don't tell me he wasn't worth it. Not trying to :argue: either. We probably just don't believe in the same things.

[Jason K.]

^^^ whatever^^^ I take offense to this line of thinking. He may not be a SHOW fish but it's alive.. and I did pick it up yesterday for 40 dollars..took it home salted him down and added some black water extract.. he ate 2 cubes of Hikari.. and already looks better. He has the company of one Rosie (Alencer) if anyone wants to send me a couple more tank mates then feel free, but don't tell me he wasn't worth it. Not trying to :argue: either. We probably just don't believe in the same things.

WOW, you asked for opinions, and that's all you got.

[caparzo]

I guess now support would be better. Thanks.

[Disgirl]

I wish you well with your new friend, I have heard stories of amazing recoveries with LFS fish. I have one myself. I once found a small discus, about 2", all alone in a tank at WALMART! It was $9.99 and looked so cute and lonely. Well, that discus grew up to about 5" and was a beautiful brown with lots of turquoise. It even spawned with a Wattley Turq. I had!!! Good luck with it and let us know how he/she does.
Barb:)

[lpiasente]

Good for you giving it a go I am with you on the charity cases of ALL creatures great and small. My concern is that is seems you haven't put it in qt (or did I miss read). I hope it all works out and a before and after pic would be great.

[mikel]

It's your money, and others were only giving your their opinion. If you wanted them to say what you want to hear, then why bother asking?

That said, what's done is done. I hope you take great care in making sure that new fish is quarantined from your others for observation, and cleaning up. The greatest tragedy would be in trying to save one, and killing everyone else.

You need to observe it, feed it, give it great water, and have the basic meds on hand and be ready if things go south. Best mike:)

[caparzo]

I definately appreciate and respect the opinions of the more experienced people on the forum.. I guess I wasn't ready for, " club it in the head." :)


I will get some pics posted. Thanks

[Tito]

Extreme advice receives extreme reaction.

[Apistomaster]

After keeping and breeding Discus and other tropical fish for over 40 years I have learned when to try to save a fish or when it is kinder to euthanize them. I have raised 1000's of Discus and I think anyone who has been in fish as a business has a different sensitivity to then. You learn when to try to save them and when it is a lost cause. Most Discus which have been in a fish shop a year and have been in decline are lost causes. This is particularly true of wild Discus and perhaps even more so with the more difficult species like Heckels.
They are close to impossible to turn around at a late date. The make it or break it stage is when they have been recently imported.

[MostlyDiscus]

I would not buy the fish.


Ed

[mlw]

I would not buy the fish.


Ed

He doesn't want to hear that. He already purchased the fish, just wants support now. I wish him much luck with the fish unfortunately I have had a similar situation with an Altum Angelfish. After much TLC and BST, RO Unit live food, UV sterilizer it is still stunted and will never reach it's full potential.

[caparzo]

I like your quote MLW, this guy is ugly.. I can admit it.. fins were nipped.. I think there is probably some gill burn.. and he was soo thin. After I put him in with a good looking fish I became quite aware of just how bad of shape he was in... He is eating though and putting on some weight. I will pick up some live worms this evening and do another water change. Hopefully he can grow all his fins out and reach a normal size... It is possible he has a tape worm stealing all of nutrients right ? Apistomaster, how do you know when they are beyond the point ? I guess that is my novice showing but I didn't see that there was anything to indicate he was beyond any point of return ? I'll post a pic of him tonight... you'll all probably laugh at him, but thats ok.

[Jason K.]

though not common, tapeworms can be treated with praziquental

[Wahter]

I like your quote MLW, this guy is ugly.. I can admit it.. fins were nipped.. I think there is probably some gill burn.. and he was soo thin. After I put him in with a good looking fish I became quite aware of just how bad of shape he was in... He is eating though and putting on some weight. I will pick up some live worms this evening and do another water change. Hopefully he can grow all his fins out and reach a normal size... It is possible he has a tape worm stealing all of nutrients right ? Apistomaster, how do you know when they are beyond the point ? I guess that is my novice showing but I didn't see that there was anything to indicate he was beyond any point of return ? I'll post a pic of him tonight... you'll all probably laugh at him, but thats ok.

Wait, how long did you quarantine this new fish (which doesn't look to be in the best of health) before mixing it in with your current discus?

You answered your own question - when discus are very thin, that's when they are most likely beyond the point of no return. Often times, the fins look ragged even when they are not being picked on - just another sign of poor health.



Walter

[caparzo]

here you go..


Horrible pictures I know.. but at 85kb.. and a crappy camera, it's about all I could do. Someday I'll take a photography class !

[hedut]

I don't want make you sad I loss two discus look like your heckels, that look like internal problem. it won't long look like skitis. I could be wrong

[Eddie]

here you go..


Horrible pictures I know.. but at 85kb.. and a crappy camera, it's about all I could do. Someday I'll take a photography class !

OMG, thats one of the sickest fish I've seen. Definitely has internal issues capillaria most likely, along with flagellates. You have put your entire tank in jeopardy.

Eddie

[lpiasente]

I am shocked at the state of this fish. You really need to get him out of your tank and put him in another tank all on his own and treat him. I really hope he hasn't passed anything on to you own discus. Good luck with him but he does look very bad.

[Apistomaster]

You asked me how I know when a Discus is a lost cause.
I know from experience and others have filled in the rest.
Anyone who has been keeping and breeding Discus as long as I have knows which fish are salvageable and which ones aren't long before they reach the terminal stage this Heckel is in.
When buying wild Discus from a shop the best time is to buy it within days of it's arrival.
Only a few fish shop owners know how to properly care for Discus wild or domestic. Everyday they remain in their tanks increases the chances that the fish aren't worth buying. If you ever decide to buy more wild Discus then buy them from one of the sponsors here in simplydiscus. They all know how to care for wild Discus and won't send out any that have no chance of doing well if given adequate care.
Of all the 3 species of wild Discus the Heckel is the most demanding and least forgiving of any lapses in proper care. Discus do not recover from a period of bad care like some fish can do.
Just consider this a lesson. At least you didn't pay a lot for him but you should know that the dealer probably didn't pay more than $25 for that fish when it was still healthy. I'm sure he was relieved to have recovered at least his invoice cost.

[MostlyDiscus]

*Shrugs shoulders* you had been watching that fish for a while I guess and felt the need to help it. There is nothing wrong with that. What urks me is that their are shop owners that let discus waste away and then feel its ok to sell the fish to a unsuspecting buyer. As breeders we have a tendency to cull young fish for this reason or that and thus become desensitised to killing fish. Believe me, the process still hurts, we just know that it needs to be done. It is hobbist like you that make discus keeping great though. You care and the discus you have are pets. When I sell discus I can only hope that they find a home where someone is willing to learn and grow and give the fish the proper care they need. I have seen blue diamond babies(2inch) go for as little as $10.00 each from local breeders. Five young unstunted BDs would be a much eaiser route to go. Heckels with Heckels if you can. If you need help still dont hesitate to ask. I beleive everyone here would be willing to help you.

Ed

[caparzo]

Thank you everyone.. it is a learning process and I know your right when you say that at some point you need to disconnect yourself from a bad situation. I've done it before myself. So.. to answer concerns, This fish is in QT right now there just happens to be an Alancer in there with him. The Rosie was just not able to hack it with my 5 domestics, which all outsize him by at least double... Also, after hearing Eddie claim this fish is possibly the sickest one he's ever seen I started prazi-pro treatment last night.. it is only a 29g tank, and I did about a 50% change treated with Amquel 2 days ago. Directions on the the Prazi-Pro say no more than 1tsp per 10g no more than once every 3-5 days.. Does anyone have advice on a better course of action.. 25% everyday with a tablespoon of Prazi-Pro every other day maybe ? Didn't get to the store for the live worms yet but planning on that tonight. Hopefully I can get him on tract! hehe.(wordplay)

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Caparzo,


For tapeworms I dont know if prazi really works as the label states. I think the medication should really be administerd via the food if possible. That being said it looks to me like your discus doesnt eat much. My concern here is that in your efforts to help this fish to cure it you may in fact be hurting it by subjecting a weak fish(weak organs) to chemicals that are meant to help the fishes immune system to recover and balance the pathogen equation. Meds help if the symptoms are assesed early. The longer a fish is sick the harder it is to bring it back. Heckels are truely amazing discus and are a challange for anyone. Live black worms IMO would bring you more problems than cures with not only your sick fish but also your healthy ones. Hope this helps, the only mistake we make in life are the ones we dont learn from. I would put that fish down or at least make it as comfortable as possible without bombarding it with different chemicals.


Ed

[NanDiscus]

I would try to feed some small 1-1,5" earthworms or compostworms to the sick one.
And no chemicals, but a hu-hu-huge amount of spotless water.

Nandi

[Tito]

Here's what fascinates me.......

the fish has been in the shop for a whole year......

all of a sudden it's going to drop dead when you buy him??????

True - a fish like that needs serious quarantine but to call it a wrap?

Personally - I would not buy him because I don't gamble - it's against my religion - but if someone else wants to take the chance - I see nothing wrong with that - to introduce it to the main tank is not wise.

[caparzo]

No need to worry about this anymore. Messed with the PH and nuked the whole tank.. I guess maybe a club to the head would have been more humane. My bad. :(

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

that'll always get em...messin with the PH. I never TOUCH mine for this very reason. sorry to hear about ur losses! start fresh. you live and learn my friend.

take care.

[Mrylln]

So true, Ed. The heart of a fish hobbyist is very big; every fish is sacred.

Please, put fish that are so sick down. They will only infect your healthy ones.

Boo on anyone who sells fish like this. They give discus a bad reputation as difficult fish, when nothing is further from the truth when they are healthy from the start.

Got spoons?

[Apistomaster]

The key is to buy wild Discus as soon as they arrive at your LFS before the long term effects of fish shop level of care causes irreversible damage.

[ockyra215]

Well I have done this before with a similar fish it was a heckle and in fact i think I paid 40 bucks for him.When I first got into this hobby and bought every discus i seen at lfs not knowing about qt tanks or waiting I made the same mistakes.He died as well as yours forget how I killed him but it happend but as i got more expierience started meeting people and reading everything I could get my hands on(no internet back then)But I worked at a lfs and found they dont even feed the fish half the time.They want to get them in and out as fast as they can.there moto was feeding = waste and more to clean and needless to say I quit But the moral to this story is research and buy only from reputable people.And the only stupid question is the one that wasnt asked! Sorry for your loss but try again you will succeed!