Use Water Softener water for discus ?

[diamond_discus]

It's getting too expensive to use heater for water storage tanks. Electricity here in LA is just too darn expensive. I am thinking about using water from my water heater .. Gas bill is much cheaper then electricity bill. The problem is that I have a whole house water softener ... Did anyone has any success using such soft water ? I know water softerner water has salt .. but we always add salt to our discus tank anyway. So what is the harm if I use 99.5% pure salt for my water softener ? This means my tank will not have those nasty white stuff to clean and I won't need to pay huge electricity bill in the winter. A breeder told me recently that hard water would indeed help to grow discus much faster .. So, I am not sure if I want to switch anything .. It's just that the wife kept complaining about the monthly electric bill ... Any suggestion/idea/comment ?

Note : My current water storage tanks get water before it goes thru the water softener system.

[philip69285]

I use water softner water on my discus with no issues :).

[diamond_discus]

What brand name of salt do you use ?

[philip69285]

The Morton salt

[diamond_discus]

Morton salt has many different type. Which one are you using ?

http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/watersoftner/index.html

System Saver ® II Formula Pellets
System Saver® Brine Blocks
White Crystal® Solar Salt
Rust Remover Pellets
Potassium Chloride Pellets
White Crystal® Rock Salt
White Crystal® Brine Blocks
Rust-Rout® Brine Block
Rust Raze® Resin Cleaner

[Elite Aquaria]

I use White Crystal® Solar Salt

[David Rose]

It's my understanding that the salt used in your water softener/brine system is used to recharge the resin then is periodically purged during the backwash cycle. Mine is programmed to backwash as 2 a.m. The amount of salt that actually goes through to tap is minimal.

Regardless, I use a heated water storage tank with 500W titanium heater and found that if I turn the heater on before going to bed the water is up to temp by the morning for water changes. So I would recommend a timer. I haven't noticed any sigificant change to my electric charges.

[philip69285]

I think its this one... System Saver ® II Formula Pellets. But I would have to go out there and make sure. But Im sure its that.

[diamond_discus]

Well, I mixed the hot soft water (directly from the water heater) and cold soft water (from the tap) to the right tank water temp (~84 degree), and use that for a water change for a smaller tank. I only have a couple fish in there for testing purpose and I didn't anything noticeable different. This is a good sign. I will continue to do that for that tank and monitor closely.

Hopefully this would work for all my tanks and I can remove the heater from my 3 water storage. My wife complains that our electric bill went up >$100 per month for the past couple months. Hopefully, this will help save me some money.

Also, I am going to seal a couple small window in my garage (where most of my tanks and water storages are located). Hope this will keep the garage room warmer as well. I notice the heater lights are on most of the night .. another factor for my sudden increase electricity bill.

[David Rose]

Well, I mixed the hot soft water (directly from the water heater) and cold soft water (from the tap) to the right tank water temp (~84 degree), and use that for a water change for a smaller tank. I only have a couple fish in there for testing purpose and I didn't anything noticeable different. This is a good sign. I will continue to do that for that tank and monitor closely.

Hopefully this would work for all my tanks and I can remove the heater from my 3 water storage. My wife complains that our electric bill went up >$100 per month for the past couple months. Hopefully, this will help save me some money.

Also, I am going to seal a couple small window in my garage (where most of my tanks and water storages are located). Hope this will keep the garage room warmer as well. I notice the heater lights are on most of the night .. another factor for my sudden increase electricity bill.

They make hot water tank insulation blankets that would help a lot.

http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com/frost-king-water-heater-insulation-blanket-p-35509.html?ref=42

[diamond_discus]

David:
I am not trying to find something to keep the water heater warm. I am trying to avoid using my 55 gallon water barrel to store aged and heated water. I need to use a 250w heater in each of my three 55 gallon water barrel to keep the water warm for water change. That seems to increase my electric bill .. Gas is so much cheaper than electricity here in California.

I am trying to do the following :
1. Don't use heater in my storage tank anymore. Trying to eliminate storage barrel completely.
2. Every day after I come home from work, I will get the heated water directly from my water heater and fill up my few 55 gallon water barrel.
3. The water from the water heater is about 110 degree. I can either add cold water to get it down to mid 80, or simply let it cool down for a few hours to the mid 80 .. then do my water change, with Prime Safe.

My concerns are :
1. Is it okay to use soft water for discus (concern with salt in those soft water).
2. No aging water

[philip69285]

I dont age my water and I have been using this water softner with discus for like 2years now. Had it on other fish before that. I have not had any problems what so ever with any of my fish and they are very healthy. Again, there will be ppl who argue against that but I throw in cold water... like 70-75degrees sometimes colder and they seem to like it. No problems at all. I woulodnt worry about it but you need to get them use to it first :).

[diamond_discus]

I need to connect a garden hose to my water heater, to get the hot water into my barrel. Will a normal garden hose be okay to handle hot water at 110 degree or hotter ?

[philip69285]

I would get a food grade hose for that... just because I would fear it leaking particles into the water at that temp.

[David Rose]

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my posts:

1. Salt is minimal from a water softening system and will not harm your discus.

2. Whether you are using a storage barrel or using hot water from your household "hot water tank" an insulated blanket will conserve the heat and reduce your cost whether it be electric or gas that heats the water.

If you don't need to age your water, why are you using aging barrels and not using a mix of hot and cold from the tap delivered via a phython or FDA food grade hose.?

[diamond_discus]

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my posts:

1. Salt is minimal from a water softening system and will not harm your discus.

2. Whether you are using a storage barrel or using hot water from your household "hot water tank" an insulated blanket will conserve the heat and reduce your cost whether it be electric or gas that heats the water.

If you don't need to age your water, why are you using aging barrels and not using a mix of hot and cold from the tap delivered via a phython or FDA food grade hose.?

The water facet in my garage only has cold water. I am using it currently to fill up my storage barrel. If I don't need to age the water, I am still use the water barrel to fill up with cold water, then connect another hose to my water heater to mix in hot water to the water barrel. This way I don't need to call the plumber to add a hot water line to my facet. So you think a phython hose can handle that 110 degree hot water ?

[David Rose]

Typically, folks age their water because there is a shift in pH over 24-48hrs because the water source has higher CO2 content. We age water by adding aeration in a water storage barrel to allow the CO2 gas off and the pH stabalizes. We heat it as well to match our tank temp for water changes.

If you tested for pH changes and they stay the same, you don't need to age your water. If so, hook a faucet adapter to a python at your kitchen sink and mix hot/cold water to be 84F and do your water changes. I'm assuming your tanks are in your house and not a garage/fish room.

If you need to age your water in your storage barrels, using insulation around your 55G barrel to keep the heat in will reduce your electric considerably. You could also use a higer than needed 500w heater in your storage tank that will heat the water faster and you don't need to leave it on all the time. Use a timer 10hrs "ON" to bring your water to temp before you need it for water changes. This will save you as well. You'll need to run the air pump to the water storage 24/7.

Does that make sense? Let me know if you have any questions.

PS: I wouldn't use a vinyl hose for 110F water, but someone else may know the saftey range better than myself.

[discussmith]

The amount of sodium in your soft water is directly related to the amount of KH that is in your tap water. That is why salt is used. The resin replaces the carbonates with sodium from the salt and yes in large amounts it can be bad for discus. I have at times experienced fin deformity or stunted growth on some but not all (25 to 33 %) of young have developed these problems when I raised them that way. My tap hardness is 320+ ppm or 640ms with a PH of 8.8 to 9+.

[diamond_discus]

Well, I just measure the pH of different water. 3 days aged tap water and 1 days aged water has about the same pH, ~8.2. The soft water from the water heater is ~8.5. That is about 0.3 pH higher. Is that okay ?

The TDS of tap water and soft water is about the same, some where between 370 to 400 TDS.

Someone suggested to connect a python hose to the faucet. I didn't think of this idea at first because I have a faucet at the garage but that one doesn't have hot water. My wife won't let me use the kitchen or bath room faucet because they are custom faucet type that won't "match" with the python connector. Well, I just figure out that there is a faucet in my wet bar that we don't use. That one has hot water. I can use it to adjust the soft water to the right temperature for all my tanks (both inside the house and my garage fish room).

My new python hose will be arriving in a couple days. I will try the soft water in one tank first and see how it goes. Hopefully, the sodium content is not too high to slow the growth of my fish or actually hurt them. But my electric bill is just too high in the winter and I must find way to reduce the cost .. or the BOSS won't let me have so many tanks, and storage tanks. :(

[David Rose]

We have to keep our "Bosses" happy DD..:D..best of luck with the changes!

The TDS shouldn't be an issue and the change in pH will be fine, but your pH is on the higher range at over 8.2-8.5. Do your discus do well with this? I'm curious because my age well water is 8.2.

Take care,
David

[Condor]

I seem to remember a thread where someone used a pond heater to heat their water quickly, can't find the thread though:o

Adrian

[David Rose]

The amount of sodium in your soft water is directly related to the amount of KH that is in your tap water.

Did you do a salinity test of your softened water? Are you sure your water softener is working and or the resin hasn't expired? That is an issue that I ran into. With my new system, the salt content is less than what is in a slice of bread. Certainly not harmful.

The salt is exchanged for Calcium and Magnesium (GH), which is why folks soften their water to prevent calcification build-up in their pipes and on household faucet fixtures.

[diamond_discus]

We have to keep our "Bosses" happy DD..:D..best of luck with the changes!

The TDS shouldn't be an issue and the change in pH will be fine, but your pH is on the higher range at over 8.2-8.5. Do your discus do well with this? I'm curious because my age well water is 8.2.

Take care,
David

I've used the same tap water for my discus for the past 4 years. They seems to do fine. In one of my bigger tank, I have a big driftwood in there and that seems to lower the pH a little, not much. I used to use Discus Buffer to lower the pH but I found that discus would do fine with higher pH, so I didn't waste my money anymore. In my other tanks that doesn't have driftwood, the pH will be around 7.8 to 8.0. I do 90% WC of all my tanks every two days.

I thought well water should have a much lower pH ?

BTW, how do you measure the sodium/salt content in your water ?

[David Rose]

I've used the same tap water for my discus for the past 4 years. They seems to do fine. In one of my bigger tank, I have a big driftwood in there and that seems to lower the pH a little, not much. I used to use Discus Buffer to lower the pH but I found that discus would do fine with higher pH, so I didn't waste my money anymore. In my other tanks that doesn't have driftwood, the pH will be around 7.8 to 8.0. I do 90% WC of all my tanks every two days.

I thought well water should have a much lower pH ?

BTW, how do you measure the sodium/salt content in your water ?

I happen to have a Koi pond and have a master test kit that includes a liquid test for salt. I also have a hydrometer that is used to monitor salt water tanks. There are more precise methods as well, but I had my Culligan man test my water for me when he followed up after installing my new system as a cross reference.

[diamond_discus]

I happen to have a Koi pond and have a master test kit that includes a liquid test for salt. I also have a hydrometer that is used to monitor salt water tanks. There are more precise methods as well, but I had my Culligan man test my water for me when he followed up after installing my new system as a cross reference.

I have one of this COM100 meter (http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/com100.html).

I found this website as well (http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nreninf.nsf/childdocs/-2BAF4D73531CD1544A2568B3000505AF-9A924F4B3FB28503CA256BC80004E921-8132507DA12388464A256DEA00280C4F-64DFC3B291771BD7CA256BCF000AD4E9?open) to measure the salinity of water.

I only use my meter to measure TDS ... I need to switch to EC mode and see how it goes ..

My fishes are doing fine without the soft water ... I hate to cause any harm to them if I switch .. But on the other hand, I must cut down my electric bill .. so my fishes has to go thru this experiment. :o

[David Rose]

I have one of this COM100 meter (http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/com100.html).

I found this website as well (http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nreninf.nsf/childdocs/-2BAF4D73531CD1544A2568B3000505AF-9A924F4B3FB28503CA256BC80004E921-8132507DA12388464A256DEA00280C4F-64DFC3B291771BD7CA256BCF000AD4E9?open) to measure the salinity of water.

I only use my meter to measure TDS ... I need to switch to EC mode and see how it goes ..

My fishes are doing fine without the soft water ... I hate to cause any harm to them if I switch .. But on the other hand, I must cut down my electric bill .. so my fishes has to go thru this experiment. :o

I have the same TDS meter as well. :)

Keep in mind that salinity is a general term. Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Carbonate are all forms of salt. There are some on SD that are much more scientifically inclined than myself that can jump in here, but I too was concerned with the salt used in my brine system and the impact that it would have on my discus. I respectfully disagree with DiscusSmith that it is harmful to our discus because I believe the amount that passes through to the tap is minimal.

It is my understanding that salt used in water softening is exchanged with the Calcium and Magnesium (GH) kind. If it also exchanges with the carbonate/KH as well, I was not aware of it, but either way my GH/KH test kits show:

Before/After water softening
GH 16/7
KH 12/6

Over all TDS reading 300 before and after

[diamond_discus]

David :

What do you use to measure your GH/KH ? I am interested to find out what my number would be.

I plan to do another experiment tonight, but adding regular tap water to a 10 gallon tank, and then add 2 tsp of salt to it. I do that all the time for new arrival fish, to reduce stress .. So a little salt in the water should not harm discus. Someone also told me that breeders in Asia use lots of salt in their tank as well. So, why would salt in soft water be harmful to discus ? I guess we just have to find out ourselves. Hopefully, it won't be a disaster.

-Larry

[David Rose]

Larry,

You can get the online or some LFS will carry them:

Prices vary of course, but this is what they look like....

This kit has Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, GH, KH, CO2.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635399

http://www.marinedepot.com/Aquarium_Pharmaceuticals_Aquarian_Freshwater_GH_KH _Test_Kit_Alkalinity_Test_Kits_for_Freshwater_Aqua riums-Aquarium_Pharmaceuticals_API_MARS_Fishcare-AP3219-FWTKAL-vi.html

[diamond_discus]

Well, I did a 95% WC to my 90 gallon tank yesterday ... Use 60% my regular aged tap water, then added 40% of the soft water directly from my heater storage tank ... Everything looks good so far .. will increase the amount next time.

[diamond_discus]

GE appliances website has a table showing the amount of sodium added to water by a water softener :

http://www.geappliances.com/search/fast/infobase/10000998.htm

I had my water hardness setting at 19, meaning it would have added 8.2% of sodium in the water. Well, I just called my water district. They told me that my district water should be 253 ppm or 14.7 GPG .....

I am going to change my water softener settings, from 19 to 15.. Meaning that I am going to reduce the sodium from 8.2% to 6.5%. I assume the lower number, the better.

I was using 50% soft water yesterday during WC. Will up to 75% tomorrow. so far the fishes seems to do fine.

[diamond_discus]

Doing 75% WC with soft water lately .. All fishes are doing fine. There are some bubbles building up at the side wall of the tank .. but those will go away very quickly. Now I shut down two of my three 55 gallon water storage barrel .. Hopefully, my electric bill will go down a bit this month. We'll see .. Will be going to 100% soft water change next week.

[David Rose]

Best of luck...

[diamond_discus]

Well, I finally decided to do 95% WC for all my tanks with soft water. I used my two 55 gallons barrel to store the heater soft water which is at ~90 degree .. I let the water settle in the barrel for 3 hours with an airstone. This would get rid of the bubbles ... less stress on the fishes .. Otherwise, the bubbles not only appears everywhere, but also attached to the fishes body slime .. very stressful to the fishes ...

After 3 hrs of aging, the bubbles are gone but the water temp didn't really drop that much .. so next time I would just adjust it to 86 degree then ... I used a pump to pump the water to each tanks and then add Seachem Prime Safe .. Will continue to monitor the fishes .. So starting tonight .. no more heater in the water barrel ..

[Owl]

Hi DD,

My tanks are in an outbuilding, each tank sits on a base of 1" polystyrene, the backs and sides of the tanks are also covered in 1" polystyrene. The tank covers I make from 15mm clear polycarbonate sheets which is used for roofing conservatories as it is insulated.
This helps dramatically in keeping down heat loss from the tanks.

I am from the UK and I think polystyrene is called styrofoam or something in the states.

[gwrace]

Well, I mixed the hot soft water (directly from the water heater) and cold soft water (from the tap) to the right tank water temp (~84 degree), and use that for a water change for a smaller tank. I only have a couple fish in there for testing purpose and I didn't anything noticeable different. This is a good sign. I will continue to do that for that tank and monitor closely.

Hopefully this would work for all my tanks and I can remove the heater from my 3 water storage. My wife complains that our electric bill went up >$100 per month for the past couple months. Hopefully, this will help save me some money.

Also, I am going to seal a couple small window in my garage (where most of my tanks and water storages are located). Hope this will keep the garage room warmer as well. I notice the heater lights are on most of the night .. another factor for my sudden increase electricity bill.

I've done this for years. We are on a well water system with a 2500 gallon above ground indoor storage tank. We pre-filter and soften the water before it comes in the house for general use. PH is consistent at 7.6-7.8 so I never adjust it. I do treat the tanks with Amquel + and Novaqua for each weekly water change. Never had any problems with disease and have been doing this for the last 25 years.

[David Rose]

Hi DD,

One added note, keep in mind that a brine water softening system exchanges salt for the calcium/magnesium, so these minerals will be missing. You may want to research and possible use a supplement. I believe this is in Kent's Discus Essentials, but you can find less expensive as well.

Take care,
David

[sthai75]

pertaining to the household water softener, have you had any success with breeding your discus? or for that matter do you have any breeding pairs?

[diamond_discus]

pertaining to the household water softener, have you had any success with breeding your discus? or for that matter do you have any breeding pairs?

Well, I have 3 breeding pairs in breeding tanks. They are young pairs .. still learning .. They are doing their weekly spawn but no fry yet .. because they kept eating the eggs.

All I can say is that so far with 100% household softener water, I did not see any difference in my fishes.

[sbobcat]

Well, I have 3 breeding pairs in breeding tanks. They are young pairs .. still learning .. They are doing their weekly spawn but no fry yet .. because they kept eating the eggs.

All I can say is that so far with 100% household softener water, I did not see any difference in my fishes.

Thanks for your experiments, I finally purchase a water softener last week. I am installing it tomorrow. Any update form your experiments, I assume the discuss are fine with the soften water and what salt did you use?

Vince