dark discus and bullying

[pchekay]

Help! We are new/intermediate discus owners with a 46g tank established tank of 3 years that has 5 -5" adult discus along with some cardinals, rummy nose, pelco, hatchet, glass catfish and blue rams. We have fine sand bottom with moderate planted areas along with rock and driftwood for a show tank. We buy our discus from the same breeder and haven't had any problems other than trying to figure out pecking order and losing the discus from depression and bullying.

So far, we've kept the tank clean and done the appropriate water changes and feeding rituals of 2ce day. we feed flake and blood worms usually and have a healthy blend of spirulina and algae disks.

So the problem is: We had a mated pair who were laying eggs but not hatching and recently introduced 3 add'l discus. the female bullied all the new discus for the first few days but now the female seems to have found a new mate with the larger of the newer discus. it has now been 4 days later and all the discus are dark in color, not eating well and are hiding constantly. We thought it was a water problem but the ph is 6.8, no nitrates or ammonia found. the only thing that we have a problem with is an undetermined GH water level because the water test kit chemical never turned the green color to confirm the hardness...We did do a fresh water change before introducing the newbies and one shortly after. I don't want to lose another set of discus due to over bullying.

Why is the colors still dark and why are they still hiding? How long does the pecking order take to determine? Is it too soon to put the bully in time out?

[Eddie]

Are all the fish dark and hiding or just the ones getting bullied?


Eddie

[pchekay]

At first the three new discus hid from the female that was from the mated pair. And the three new discus havent eaten. now the mated male is looking black and low fins but is eating, but less color. the orginal mated female has ok color but never has gotten as brillant as when first purchased...

[Spardas]

I'm going to go with a guess that you didn't QT the new fishes and probably acclimated them right into the tank.

What's the temperature in the tank?

I'm leaning towards infection from new stock to old and vice versa as opposed to bullying if everyone is turning dark. Any other signs of trouble like labored breathing, etc.

[Eddie]

At first the three new discus hid from the female that was from the mated pair. And the three new discus havent eaten. now the mated male is looking black and low fins but is eating, but less color. the orginal mated female has ok color but never has gotten as brillant as when first purchased...

Can you copy and paste this into a post and answer each question in detail. Now I am not saying your fish are sick but it can give us some clues.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545


Eddie

[pchekay]

The LFS said to float the bags for 10 minutes then add some water from the tank to the bags and let them float for another 5 min or so then you can release them into the tank. I have done this with other fish no problem. I trust the LFS all the discus are healthy and have great color. But maybe you are saying there is a better way?

The tank temp is 81 degrees.

[namasgt]

you have to quarantine Discus when you want to mix them. specially introducing new ones in to an already established tank with other Discus in it. There is always a thread like this that people introduce new Discus without quarantining and they end up with sick fish. listen to what Eddie is suggesting, you may have sick fish right now. How long did the LFS had the fish in their store, did you see them eat before buying?

[pchekay]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

I have had Discus before and had started with 4 adult discus and had troubles with bullying before. I put the trouble red melon that was beating on everyone in a 10g QT tank for a week then added him back to the tank and he got sick and died. the mated pair (that I have now) started harassing the other discuss till he finally turned black stopped eating and died. So I thought beings the mated pair never produced any fry that I would add three new discus and where I am at now.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Symptoms are turning blackish not as colorful. Hiding and darting. They are starting to clamp fins. the 3 new discus do nothing but hide. the mated are eating but I have noticed the male from the pair is looking gloomy. no more than that so far.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.


Added 2 tablespoons of salt to help calmn the fish. no other meds


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

46g 3 yr esatblished tank. 5 discus, 10 neon, 5 hatchet, 1 clown pelco, 4 blue ram, 6 rummy, 4 glass cat, 3 rasbora.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Once a week water change. black sand bottom and live plants plus driftwood.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 81_____

- ph 6.8_____

- ammonia reading 0____

- nitrite reading 0____

- nitrate reading 0____

- well water ?____

- municipal water ?____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

Add the 3 discus, 10 neon, 5 hatchet, and 4 glass cat all at the same time

[pchekay]

you have to quarantine Discus when you want to mix them. specially introducing new ones in to an already established tank with other Discus in it. There is always a thread like this that people introduce new Discus without quarantining and they end up with sick fish. listen to what Eddie is suggesting, you may have sick fish right now. How long did the LFS had the fish in their store, did you see them eat before buying?

Maybe someone can post me a link so I can read and understand how to introduce new discus fish. The LFS said she had them a few weeks and that all three of them in the tank together where behaving well. I didnt see them eat before buying. Although I have watched her before feeding discus and they eagarly eat. Thanks for all the advise Im still learning.

[namasgt]

You overloaded your tank. When was the last time you changed the water. If its been awhile, I would do a large (more than 50%) water change for now.

[tdiscusman]

Maybe someone can post me a link so I can read and understand how to introduce new discus fish. The LFS said she had them a few weeks and that all three of them in the tank together where behaving well. I didnt see them eat before buying. Although I have watched her before feeding discus and they eagarly eat. Thanks for all the advise Im still learning.

Hi pchekay,

Here's the link on how to quarantine your discus:http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=76800. Your LFS and existing discus maybe healthy before the you mixed them, however, since they came from difference sources, each may be a carriers of virus and bacteria that they are immune to, when you mix them, the other discus or fish which as no immunities to the new virus/bacteria will get sick or both.

Tony

[mlw]

You overloaded your tank. When was the last time you changed the water. If its been awhile, I would do a large (more than 50%) water change for now.


I was just thinking the same thing. That is one crowded 46 gallon. I do hope you resolve this, it is never fun losing fish.

[pchekay]

Ok NOW we are kicking ourselves for not QT the fish. Now the entire tank is infected with ICH. That's what happens when you trust the wrong person...Upon researching the cure for ICH, the data only lists medications. we put in a UV sterilizer immediately. Will this along with a 50% water change work? Or do we need to do the meds too?

[Finatic]

For Ick, raise your water temp (should be around 84-86 anyways) to 86+ and add salt, 1 tbsp per gallon. Ick doesnt do well in high temps, and the salt will help to speed up their removal. Do daily water changes, adding salt for the water removed. Lights out, and keep the salt in that tank for 3 days. After the third day, do at least a 50% change, and keep the fresh water changes routine.

Your tank does seem a bit overcrowded, so you will want to do daily water changes to compensate.

[pchekay]

Thank you everyone for the help. I guess I'll need to donate some fish to another tank.

[pchekay]

Thanks again to everyone for their advice. It looks like we survived the ICH and popeye pandemic. We lost several smaller fish includeing 6 rams, 5 rummies, 3 cardinals and Bubba, one of our discus. So, the tank is NOT crowded anymore. Why do I have to learn things the hard way? But at least the lesson was learned. Penelope, the bully is back on the rampage again and is being super mean. But I'm happy that she is at least healthy again and acting more normal than black and in a corner with ICH.

[SHAD0W]

Would it be possible for someone to post a picture of their dark discus? I want to know what to look out for just in case.