Heckel Water conditions

[Discus Origins]

Hi All,

New to the forum, long time discus keeper, enjoying reading a lot of the threads on here.

I've always kept domestically bred discus that actually do well in tap water where I never had to do too much to make them happy. But now I'm getting into some wild discus, have some heckels on order, that I want to make sure the conditions are as close as possible to nature.

My tap here in FL comes out about ph 7.8, GH and KH over 16 so definite changes have to be made. I have a R/O unit producing water right now at ph 7.0, Gh and Kh around 2. I have set up a 90 gallon with wet/dry, sand substrate and driftwood. It was planted heavily but since changing the water in there from 50/50 tap/RO to 100% RO a lot of the plants have started to die and shedding leaves so I'm just going to remove them all except for a few anubias and maybe java moss.

My question is this....we all know that the Heckels would love to be in ph 4.0-4.5 and in water with Kh < 2, conductivity less than 20 microseimens, how in the world can I make sure the ph stays stable in that environment? That will be the biggest challenge for me to maintain in the tank. I was thinking about using a combination of neutral and acid buffers to take the water to the right ph but then I've also read not to use buffers as its not good for the fish. Any help would be appreciated - Heiko Bleher, Brewmaster, Apistomaster, etc please jump right in. Thanks.

[Discus Origins]

I guess this either isn't a hot topic or no one has an answer for me yet...many views but no replies :(

[plecocicho]

Hi, m3...,
low pH has his pros and cons. On a plus side, as far as heckels go, they will shine in those low pH conditions. They came from extremelly soft and acid waters (average 4pH), full of tanins, whiich all prevents growth of bacteria, unfortunally also for most nitryfing bacteria. Tanins have several positive atributes, one is that they prevent bacteria growth, make staple acid enviroment (once Ph fall down to 4, little change in Ph occours), second is taht they help to accumulate low concentrations of minerals in natural waters. Heckels receive some minerals from their diet, be it fruits or shrimps.
So where am i heading with all this?
Some felow finnish heckel keepers keep them in very acid envroment, with soft water. They compensate lack of mienrals in the water with mioneral rich food (veggies,fruits, adding calcium, etc). They change water but not that extremelly as some americans do. Peat is great to sustain stable acid enviroment, despite low KH. Nitrifying process at low pH is very slow of course, but remember, all amoniumm is practically harmless for the fish as it is in the ion form,so there cant be any burns, or gill poisoning.

[brewmaster15]

My question is this....we all know that the Heckels would love to be in ph 4.0-4.5 and in water with Kh < 2, conductivity less than 20 microseimens, how in the world can I make sure the ph stays stable in that environment? That will be the biggest challenge for me to maintain in the tank. I was thinking about using a combination of neutral and acid buffers to take the water to the right ph but then I've also read not to use buffers as its not good for the fish. Any help would be appreciated - Heiko Bleher, Brewmaster, Apistomaster, etc please jump right in. Thanks.
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Hi,
In their native habitat theres an immense volume of water and pH can stay low but relatively stable...Its very very hard to maintain a pH of 4-4.5 in small volume of water...The tendency is to drift down and even heckels will get stressed by too low a pH.

If you were to try to to mimic these waters you'll need to carefully monitor your tanks water and may have to resort to large and frequent water changes with prepared RO or DI water.. I would not use commercial buffers as these are really geared to maintain a tank in the more normal range of pH .

If your goal to breed them...then you may need to do the above...If your goal is to maintain them well..pH ranges of 5.5-6.5 should be more than adequate...I have a group here that I keep in tap water in the lows 7's and I have kept others in waters that have gone below pH 4...
Personally I wish I could duplicate the Amazon here...but I can't...so I don't even try.

Just my opinion,
HTH,
al

[Discus Origins]

Thank you guys for your suggestions. It looks like I may have to experiment with peat moss and tanins. I have experimented in a 20 gallon container with 75% r/o and 25% tap and used a combination of neutral buffer and acid buffer to take the ph down to 5.0 and have monitored it for the past 3 days with a digital ph probe and it has consistently stayed at ph of 5 without too much fluctuation. I guess going below 5 is where the peat moss comes in so I will experiment with that next on stability. I would assume this is also the same battle many of the experienced disc breeders have already fought. Any stories from past trials?

[yogi]

There will be a lot of trial and error in trying to do what you want to do. Because the 20 gallons stays stable at ph 5.0 you won't be able to maintain it stable in a tank with fish. The natural cycle of a fishtank will tend to drift it lower. You will probably need a small bag with crushed coral (the kind they use in a saltwater tank) in the filter. This to will be trail and error. I would say just 1 or 2 table spoons in the bag. The best bag for this is buy a cheap pair of ladies stockings at the supermarket and cut them to use. It will take time to find the right amount of coral to use and you will probably need to change it once per month. Also rinse it before you use it. It's been over 5 years since I kept tanks similar to what your trying to do so I'll add more after I have time to think about what I use to do. Good Luck

[Blues]

Hi.
I´m also new here (Been peeking for a while).
Excuse my linguistic skills, but could anyone tell me what "tanins" are?
I simply can´t find any translation but an acid for preparing furs.

Thanks :)

[Eddie]

Hi.
I´m also new here (Been peeking for a while).
Excuse my linguistic skills, but could anyone tell me what "tanins" are?
I simply can´t find any translation but an acid for preparing furs.

Thanks :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin

[Blues]

Thanks :)
Seems as the translation was right - just specified a single use of the acid.

[Jstuver]

Don't want to steal your thread but I have a question for the people who keep heckels or have kept them.
I just got a group of large adult heckels from a fellow hobbiest. He kept them in RO water and I don't normally use RO so I don't have a system. He had me use a ph minus (sulfuric acid) to bring my ph down to add them to my established tank. I moved my domestics to a different tank so they are now in a very established tank.
I worry that when I change their water I might have a problem as my ph runs about 7.8 or so. Also I live in Utah and we have very hard water! What will I need to do for them? Do I need to take their aquarium to all RO water? The local pet store gives it free but it sure will be a pain. I have read it's not so much the ph as it is the hardness of the water. Could I add peat moss in my overflow to soften my water?

[plecocicho]

People do keep hybrids in basic hard water that you have. But wilds, especially heckels DO better in more soft and acid water. Not necesserialy pure Ro and 4 ph, but 3dgh and kh with 6 ph will be sufficent. Adding tannins via peat moss or oak/katappo leaves would be nice also. If your water is hard, you cant lower your ph and hardness just with peat ist just to weak. You could lower it by mixing ro or by using anion and cation resins, which will remove all minerals from your tap water. Only downside is the reactivation with 3-5% Hcl and Naoh, kation and anion resin, respectively.

[PamC]

I have been planning to keep discus and the more I look around at the varieties, I seem to gravitate towards the smaller but beautiful wild Heckles.

I am asking for clarification on Heckle water conditions, specifically on raising young Heckles.
I use RODI water and reconstitute with Seachem's Equilibrium, Acid and Alkaline buffers, presently for a target of GH-KH 3-4, plus trace minerals. pH is 7.

Is the the GH-KH target of 3-4 degrees a target for optimum growth in 3-4 inch young heckles?
Or is there a different target for young heckles compared to the adults that are healthily maintained at GH/KH target of 3-4 degrees?

Thanks in advance.

[Discus Origins]

From speaking with many members of this forum and also some old school discus hobbyists, raising young wild discus or domestic ones for that matter is much easier than trying to breed.

For breeding of wild discus, optimally if you can replicate the conditions of their natural habitat that would be the best. But more important than pH is the softness or TDS of the water. It should be below 80ppm if possible.

For raising wild discus, pH and hardness can be thrown out the window and concentrating on growing the fish to correct size without stunting is most important. There is really no wrong way to raise the fish, many breeders and experienced hobbyists use aged tap water as that is the cheapest and easiest way. Multiple feedings and water changes will keep the young fish growing and healthy. When they get to breeding age, Heckels usually after 1 1/2 to 2 years of age, then focusing on water conditions become more important.

I have personally noticed that Heckels do show better coloration with lower ph and softer water.

[PamC]

I see I have some more reading to do, heckles are not the smaller of the wilds, LOL, but very beautiful. I will see about picking up a book focused on the wild varieties.

Presently not looking to breed wilds, may grow out a few and then set up the breeding conditions to see if I have a pair to keep, then offer the grown heckles to others locally.

So if I understand the thread, it is more diet and water changes that I would need to focus on. I can still continue reconstituting my RODI water to the mentioned targets and the jvies/sub adults should be fine for growth.

[erikc]

I have been planning to keep discus and the more I look around at the varieties, I seem to gravitate towards the smaller but beautiful wild Heckles.

I am asking for clarification on Heckle water conditions, specifically on raising young Heckles.
I use RODI water and reconstitute with Seachem's Equilibrium, Acid and Alkaline buffers, presently for a target of GH-KH 3-4, plus trace minerals. pH is 7.

Is the the GH-KH target of 3-4 degrees a target for optimum growth in 3-4 inch young heckles?
Or is there a different target for young heckles compared to the adults that are healthily maintained at GH/KH target of 3-4 degrees?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, should have put in a word before.

1) Heckels are not small, believe it or not they just keep on growing all through their life in the right conditions. I have some Abacaxis and Nhamunda Heckels and they just keep on growing, they just never stop !!

2) Optimum growth for juvenile Heckels will need and good balance between soft water and minerals (pH below neutral 6 - 6.5). I use RO water that I remineralise with special Discus salts ( I think Seachem does them in the States). Water changes are important here and the quality of the water is essential, RO I find is the optimum choice (you don't have to demineralise it). I wouldn't worry about the conductivity or hardness since the Discus salts make the readings completely meaningless.

3) A balanced and varied diet, they are onmivores but have a prefernce for vegettable matter. I have found that spirulina flakes or pellets are a favourite. I use commercialy available prepared foods since I only have a few tanks (stick to the upper quality brands).

4) Don't expect them to grow as fast as the Hybrids. They take time and patience !!

5) For pairing you will obviously need a group. I've never managed to find a 100% sure way for sexing Hecekls, so it's always better to late nature take it's course. They will behave in the usual discus manner by isolating themselves from the group and picking an apprpriate spawning site. After that well ...

[Apistomaster]

JStuver,
By any chance did you get your Heckels from Ed Ruiz?
If so you have fish I raised from 3 inch juveniles.
Ed kept them in almost straight RO water acidified to about a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and they became much more colorful than when I kept them for over 4 years in my tap water which has a pH of 7.4 and 340 ppm TDS.
He is keeping them in condition almost identical to what is natural for Heckels. I know the fish did much better in his care, showing much more intense colors than they did in my water.
I wasn't willing to continue to dedicate so much care and RO water to them because I gave up on the idea of breeding them I sold them to someone who I knew would provide them with ideal water conditions. I think Ed has a 400 gpd RO system so making the large water changes in large tanks is not a problem for him. Using sulfuric or hydrochrloric(Muriatic Acid) is a legitimate way to drop the pH without having much effect on the TDS. Sodium biphospate is less powerful an acid buffer, is limited on how low it can lower the pH and it greatly increases the TDs when used at the maximum dose.
You can control the pH much easier if you begin with pure water be it RO, Distilled or Rain water. It is always approaching the problem from the wrong direction to try to start with tap water then adding chemicals to increase it's acidity. It only worsens the TDS problem.
Regardless of who you got your Heckels from it is always in their best interest to be kept in extremely soft, acid water. Check out the great deals on RO units at www.airwaterice.com They can put a good unit in your hands for less than any other source I am aware of. I plan to get their Typhoon III, 150 gpd unit for $270 but it comes loaded with accessories. You can get a unit adequate for your use for much less and for the long term welfare of your Heckels you should do so or they will begin to gradually go into decline. Heckels are very unforgiving and unadaptable to harder more alkaline water than other wild Discus although Green Discus also require rather more extreme conditions to thrive. S. haraldi can adapt to almost any potable water and even spawn successfully. Most domestics have been derived from S. haraldi and further adapted to aquarium water conditions quite at odds with their original ancestors' habitat.

[AirCapital]

let me know I cam give you the link Im not sure how they feel about putting links out there if it not a sponser. but what I have gotten was a 225gpd unit that cost 165 and it is great I have worked on the typhoons and imo this is better but without the whistles. it uses three 75gpd membranes and I am running it without a pressure pump just the tap pressure and it puts out 240gpd to be exact and my start water is 480ppm and after the r/o 10ppm and that is without a di. best deals I have found fast shipping to
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w260/hellbent72/004.jpg

[Apistomaster]

AirCapital,

That is a very good example of what can be done to obtain a large quantity of RO water on a budget. I don't use a final stage mix bed DI either. Once you have removed 97 to 98% of the dissolved chemicals how much more can one gain for aquarium water use by removing the last 2 or 3%? None that I can detect.

I have to get off my butt and install an automated shut off valve or at least an overflow prevention drain on my 2 X 55 gal plastic barrels reservoir. The flood that occurred Saturday after I fell asleep was the last straw. It was not my first flood. The pathetic thing is that I have the necessary accessories still in the bag. Curse my procrastinating nature.

[Jstuver]

Larry yes I got them from Ed Ruiz. I only have a 60g cube so it won't be too bad to change water. Mine will only do 22gpd but I only change 50% water twice a week so I think I will be ok. I just know I am lazy so hopefully it will go well:)
Mine is just an RO unit not a RODI should I do 100% RO water? What do I need to add back to the water if anything?

[AirCapital]

[QUOTE=Apistomaster;634372]AirCapital,

That is a very good example of what can be done to obtain a large quantity of RO water on a budget. I don't use a final stage mix bed DI either. Once you have removed 97 to 98% of the dissolved chemicals how much more can one gain for aquarium water use by removing the last 2 or 3%? None that I can detect.

I have to get off my butt and install an automated shut off valve or at least an overflow prevention drain on my 2 X 55 gal plastic barrels reservoir. The flood that occurred Saturday after I fell asleep was the last straw. It was not my first flood. The pathetic thing is that I have the necessary accessories still in the bag. Curse my procrastinating nature.[/QUOTE

I to thought it was a good deal and I havent had a problem with it at all the only thing that is a pain on this one is flushing 3 membranes manually I would get a fast flush kit for sure. I have never run the di I beleive it builds up bacteria very fast, and di is pricey to change and to me wasnt worth the extra 10ppm it would remove. as far as flooding goes well.....I had to remove the carpet....lol in the WHOLE basement and not just the fish room. the first weekend I got this I left it on while I went fishing and two days later.....:mad: not good...lol

[Apistomaster]

Jstuver,
I agree with AirCapital that the mixed bed Deioniziation cartridge is not worth the trouble and expense for fish. The ultimate in water purity is more important in laboratory work.
Sounds like I am not the only one who floods their house because of their fish keeping activities.

I don't know how many of those Discus you bought out the original 10 Ed bought from me but you should allow more room per fish than the standard 10 gal/fish often used for Discus. I would allow at least 12 gal/adult Heckel. Since I raised them to their present size I know how large they are and I think they are in too small a tank. I thought Ed just kept one pair out of the 10 fish. Did you get all eight or fewer?
If you use 90-95% RO mixed with 10 to 5% tap water you will probably end up with water having a TDS of about 30 ppm if memory serves me right about the chemistry of your tap water. Your tap water has a nice balance of calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate making it unnecessary for you to buy any RO Right or similar commercial mineral replacements.
I recommend that you change at least 70% of their water every 3rd or 4th day.
I wanted to add that Ed is an expert on the care of Heckel Discus so you should ask him about some of your questions. I respect my fellow forum members but none live as close to you as Ed or know as much about that group of Heckels other than Ed and myself. Our advice could not possibly more directly related to that particular group of Heckels

[Jstuver]

Thanks Larry. He had eight of them and kept what he thought was a pair so I got 6 of them.

[illumnae]

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.

Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!

[erikc]

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.

Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!


Sorry to hear about the water conditions and and you fish losses, it is always saddening to hear. Okay, here's what I can advise :

Yes, you do have to reconstitute your water, otherwise you will end up burning your fish (they really won't like it). The water coming out of a DI unit is pure so you must NEVER use it straight "out of the tap" as you say.

I'm not sure about the Seachem, I don't use them. However you are re-creating water for heckels, so I wouldn't use a full dose (don't think you need it). However I would wait until someone who knows the Seachem products posts and can advise you on it's use.

[illumnae]

thanks erikc

another option i have is a normal tap water filter. It's a modular filter system and I can add as many units I want in series. Choice of filter cartridges includes:

5 micron sediment
1 micron sediment
5 micron carbon block
0.5 micron activated carbon block

No resin though. Would it be ok If I ran a 3 stage system comprising a 5 micron carbon block into a 1 micron sediment into a 0.5 activated carbon block? Would most/all the impurities be gone from this process?

Photos of the system can be found here:

http://s842.photobucket.com/home/tsktll/allalbums

[illumnae]

None can help with my water?

[erikc]

Sorry, I've been sidetracked ....

Okay, now you only want to set up a normal tap water filter system. I am sorry but it doesn't make any sense to me.

If you are worried about bacteria levels and contaminants in your tap water, the filter system won't hack it.

If you said DI was your only option (I think it is a good one) then stick with it. But as I said don't use it pure, you will burn the gills of the fish and they will try to jump out of the water !!! beleive me, I've seen it happen and it's not amusing.

[illumnae]

I was hoping the contaminants would be "taken out" by the carbon block and activated carbon block. But if it won't then I won't even consider it anymore, which leaves DI as the only option!

[erikc]

Sorry, could you start another post ? This is a bit of a highjack !

Maybe something like "Poor water quality in Singapoure", it will be interesting for your fellow countrymen discuskeepers ?

[Apistomaster]

Regardless of which water purification technology you use you still should prefilter the incoming water with a micron particulate filter, then through carbon blocks before processing in the DI cartridges or RO membrane.

I find Heckels do extremely well at a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and only about 15 to 25 ppm TDS. In these conditions the dull dark eyes will begin to shine and become red.
This is not extreme for Heckels but if they have been kept in more ordinary water the changes to the lower pH and hardness should be done gradually.

[illumnae]

Sorry, could you start another post ? This is a bit of a highjack !

Maybe something like "Poor water quality in Singapoure", it will be interesting for your fellow countrymen discuskeepers ?

Thanks erik, but I don't think it's exactly a hijack, as the thread title relates to water conditions for heckels. Our discussion on purifying water for heckels could serve useful consolidated in 1 thread for future searches as opposed to being split :)


Regardless of which water purification technology you use you still should prefilter the incoming water with a micron particulate filter, then through carbon blocks before processing in the DI cartridges or RO membrane.

I find Heckels do extremely well at a pH of 3.5 to 4.0 and only about 15 to 25 ppm TDS. In these conditions the dull dark eyes will begin to shine and become red.
This is not extreme for Heckels but if they have been kept in more ordinary water the changes to the lower pH and hardness should be done gradually.

Thanks Larry. I'm thinking of just sticking with the micron sediment filter and 3 stages of carbon block filters and not going through the additional RO/DI stage. This should give me significantly cleaner water, without having to reconstitute the water much or at all. The carbon should already lower the TDS significantly, and the water should be soft enough that peat filtration can drop the pH low.

I'll do small 10% changes over 2 weeks to get the water slowly "introduced" into the tank for the fish to get used to it. The fish in my tank (it's a S.A. biotope tank) should be used to the low ph values that the heckels would enjoy - Symphysodon discus, Biotodoma wavrini and Satanoperca leucostricta.

As a side note, I wanted to make this a Rio Negro biotope, but my LFS mis-ided the Satanoperca as S. daemon, so I bought them...only to find the species was wrong. So I no longer have a Rio Negro biotope =(

[Ed13]

I cant'quite comment on Heckel specific conditions but,

Water in Singapore is starting to get bad for fish. Due to our lack of natural water, the country has taken to "recycling" water by recycling waste water from sewage. It's pretty gross, but the water that comes out is pure enough to drink. This water is called "Newater"

However, the downside to this is that more and more, fishkeepers are reporting fish health problems and/or deaths after some water changes. The correlation drawn is that such problems occur either during extremely hot periods, where the reservoirs dry out, or after thunderstorms, where the reservoirs have been churned up and the water contains loads of impurities. What this means is that the water plant adds in an extra large amount of Newater into our piped water. This Newater seems to affect our fish badly. With the recent weekly alternation of heavy rain and extremely hot weather, my fish are feeling it. I've lost over 10 Biotodoma wavrini in the last week due to this, and I'm fearing for the Heckels.
Sorry to hear this. Have you tested this water parameters? Besides the normal for aquarium tests, chlorine? how dif is from the tap water? and how does that water alter it's chemistry after being aged?



Due to the above, I've decided to invest in a De-Ionization unit. I know that people generally discourage DI units and advocate RO units instead. However, due to constraints I have, I will be using the DI unit (please don't give me advise on how to overcome these constraints, the DI unit is my only option). Basically, it's a 3 stage unit that contains 1 carbon block, and 2 different types of mixed-bed resins. The refills aren't too pricey so it suits me ok.

DI units alone are usually discouraged because of how quickly an aquarium type(10" canister for example) resin is exhasuted if not being used after an RO system to further purify very clean water. Commercial DI units work much better, but they are expensive and not available everywhere.
It doesn't make sense to me at all that you can't fit a DI unit and not an RO membrane housing, unless I'm missing something. I know you didn't ask for advise on how to overcome space constraints;), but a simple stand alone clip(you'd need two and extra tubing) for a membrane housing is under $2 and you'd even be able to mount the membrane housing remotely from the canister(above them, below them or even in another wall), just saying;):D


Due to space constraints, this water is coming straight from the tap into the unit and into the tank. No holding container whatsoever. I intend to have peat in my filter and indian almond leaves in the tank for tannins.

I'd just like to know, how should I reconstitute my water coming from the DI unit? Is Seachem Equilibrium sufficient? How much should I put per 100 gallons of water changed? Or should I get something like Seachem Discus Buffer + Discus Trace? Or is it ok to use the DI water "straight from the tap" (may be dangerous due to the tannic acid from peat?)?

Thanks in advance!
It's gonna be tough to reconstitute the water without holding tanks.
Just brainstorming here, but I wonder if a mixing valve being fed by the DI water and tap water would work here.




Thanks Larry. I'm thinking of just sticking with the micron sediment filter and 3 stages of carbon block filters and not going through the additional RO/DI stage. This should give me significantly cleaner water, without having to reconstitute the water much or at all. The carbon should already lower the TDS significantly, and the water should be soft enough that peat filtration can drop the pH low.

I'll do small 10% changes over 2 weeks to get the water slowly "introduced" into the tank for the fish to get used to it. The fish in my tank (it's a S.A. biotope tank) should be used to the low ph values that the heckels would enjoy - Symphysodon discus, Biotodoma wavrini and Satanoperca leucostricta.
If sediment and carbon filters alone work for you needs then by all means, this would be the best option. I'd def be doing this anyways.
Now in your case if you this route,you might want to be looking at 1-2 extra sediment filters and 1-2 extra carbon filters since you don't know what the "newater" has.

This will remove sediments, chlorine, and other impurites and toxins from the water but it'll do little to alter TDS, after all anything smaller than the smallest micron filter will still pass. You'd have to test the water with those .5 micron.

HTH and good luck working this out.

[Apistomaster]

I was going to say the same thing, that carbon filters will not alter the TDS readings significantly. The major constituents are typically calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate and those pass thorough carbon unchanged. They will be displaced by using ion exchange resins but I too do not see a practical way a small standard canister will remove enough ions to lower the TDs to as low as Heckels prefer unless you don't mind replacing the resin about every 100 gallons of pure water produced give or take. If you have access to free resins then it would be economical but if you have to pay for it then an RO unit using the same space will produce many thousands of gallons before the membrane needs replacing.
If the prefilters are changed frequently enough a membrane should last about 5 years or more..

[illumnae]

Thanks so much for all your advice =) It's greatly appreciated. This is really "uncharted waters" for me so to speak, as Singapore has really been blessed with wonderful water for fish until the (relatively) recent introduction of newater in increasing quantities. I'll try to look into an RO unit, but due to Singapore water conditions, as you would appreciate, RO units are not common and certainly not as economical as in the US, as it's viewed as a high end luxury here due to our clean water.

Marine hobbyists use a DI resin based 10" canister for their marine needs instead of an RO filter, and they don't complain much of high running costs. Don't know if this is a good option instead? The link is here:

http://www.aquamarin.com.sg/productsDetail.asp?productid=379

Finally, my LFS does carry what is called a "strong acid" water softening resin that is supposed to reduce TDS and lower ph. It's pretty affordable, and it's supposed to sit in my canister filter. I'm supposed to replace it every 3 months. It's pretty affordable, but I don't know exactly what it is.

[illumnae]

I'm starting to be inclined to get the DI resin as it's actually not much more expensive than a 4 stage carbon/sediment filter. In terms of reconstituting the water, would it be ok for me to switch off the filter, drain 50% water from the tank, fill back 40% of DI water then fill back 10% of tap water before switching the filters back on to mix it all up? Or to switch off the filter, drain 50% water from the tank, fill back 50% DI water, put in Seachem Equilibrium in appropriate amounts then switch on the filters on mix it all up?

[erikc]

Thanks so much for all your advice =) It's greatly appreciated. This is really "uncharted waters" for me so to speak, as Singapore has really been blessed with wonderful water for fish until the (relatively) recent introduction of newater in increasing quantities. I'll try to look into an RO unit, but due to Singapore water conditions, as you would appreciate, RO units are not common and certainly not as economical as in the US, as it's viewed as a high end luxury here due to our clean water.

Marine hobbyists use a DI resin based 10" canister for their marine needs instead of an RO filter, and they don't complain much of high running costs. Don't know if this is a good option instead? The link is here:

http://www.aquamarin.com.sg/productsDetail.asp?productid=379

Finally, my LFS does carry what is called a "strong acid" water softening resin that is supposed to reduce TDS and lower ph. It's pretty affordable, and it's supposed to sit in my canister filter. I'm supposed to replace it every 3 months. It's pretty affordable, but I don't know exactly what it is.

Okay just one point,

the "strong acid" water softening resin that reduces TDS and lowers Ph should never be used in a filter (it seems pretty dubious to me). What you want to do is prepare the water before introducing it to your tank and never adjust it once it is in. You will be playing with you fishes health here.

If you are going for the DI resin option you will have to remineralise the water. what you will nedd is a large storage tank or barrel in order to do this.

[illumnae]

ugh that sucks, I definitely am not able to have a large enough storage tank/barrel in my house =( Looks like I can't give my fish the low TDS that they need... both RO and DI seem to require reconstituting in a separate storage tank/barrel prior to introduction into the tank

[damian_ireland]

how are you guys getting a stable low ph? what are you adding to the RO water?

[erikc]

how are you guys getting a stable low ph? what are you adding to the RO water?

You have to remineralise the water with apropriate salts. Its sounds starnge taking all the minerals out of the water just to re-introduce salts afterwards but it is your best guarantee of quality.

Illumnea (sorry can't get the muliple quote thing) :

IMO I would use the RO system and store the water in jerrycans. You can stack them up in a corner somewhere (I hope so).

[damian_ireland]

erikc,
i use TMC Pro Discus with my RO water but the pH comes out at 7......
Is there a better remin discus product

[erikc]

erikc,
i use TMC Pro Discus with my RO water but the pH comes out at 7......
Is there a better remin discus product

Hmm ... there are other products, I use Preiss Discus salts with no problems whatsoever but I'm not sure if they are available in Ireland.

Your pH coming out at 7 is a bit strange. These salts should affect the TDS and not the pH (they stabilise it). It could be that your membrane is out or that the readings are altered due to the salts. Is the test chemical or electronic ? What's the pH coming out of your RO unit ?

[damian_ireland]

from my understanding you cannot read the pH of RO water with a meter.
A friend uses Preiss and has he the same issue. He uses peat to lower the pH

[erikc]

from my understanding you cannot read the pH of RO water with a meter.
A friend uses Preiss and has he the same issue. He uses peat to lower the pH

No you can't, but if your membrane is out it will show up ! Have you tried a chemical test ?

Using mineral salts, then peat to lower the pH is counter productive. What kind of water are you looking for ? Depending on the type of water you want you could mix the RO with 5-10% tap water, it's actually very simple.

It is much easier to decide what type of water you want (for breeding wilds, growing out young, keeping adults, heckels etc..) than using a combination of systems or techniques.

[damian_ireland]

keeping adults(wild greens).i was thinking pH 6 tds around 70

[Apistomaster]

1. I think it would be mistake to not use a micron prefilter and then the carbon filter before it is passed through DI.
Cleaner water will increase the efficiency and longevity of a given batch of DI resin.
I find one can make steps as great as 50% RO or DI water in one step in situ providing the temperatures are similar.

Don't worry too much about the pH as it will gradually fall as the water becomes softer without adding anything. The pH change will occur slowly enough that it will be easy for the Heckels to make the change. Once you get their aquarium water TDS down to about 50 ppm the pH will stabilize at around 5.0 to 5.5 which is a good range for Heckels.
You can often do everything you want with soft water fishes by subtracting rather than adding chemicals.

[illumnae]

IMO I would use the RO system and store the water in jerrycans. You can stack them up in a corner somewhere (I hope so).

I really wish I could, but unfortunately there's really no space for me to store an additional 250+ litres of water for my water changes.


1. I think it would be mistake to not use a micron prefilter and then the carbon filter before it is passed through DI.
Cleaner water will increase the efficiency and longevity of a given batch of DI resin.
I find one can make steps as great as 50% RO or DI water in one step in situ providing the temperatures are similar.

Don't worry too much about the pH as it will gradually fall as the water becomes softer without adding anything. The pH change will occur slowly enough that it will be easy for the Heckels to make the change. Once you get their aquarium water TDS down to about 50 ppm the pH will stabilize at around 5.0 to 5.5 which is a good range for Heckels.
You can often do everything you want with soft water fishes by subtracting rather than adding chemicals.

Larry, so you're saying that it's ok to do up to 50% water changes with RO/DI water directly into the tank without having to store it elsewhere and reconstitute it first?

[illumnae]

On a separate note, I currently have Sera Super Peat and Seachem Purigen in my canister filter. Will this pose any problems if I switch to RO/DI water?

[erikc]

1. I think it would be mistake to not use a micron prefilter and then the carbon filter before it is passed through DI.
Cleaner water will increase the efficiency and longevity of a given batch of DI resin.
I find one can make steps as great as 50% RO or DI water in one step in situ providing the temperatures are similar.

Don't worry too much about the pH as it will gradually fall as the water becomes softer without adding anything. The pH change will occur slowly enough that it will be easy for the Heckels to make the change. Once you get their aquarium water TDS down to about 50 ppm the pH will stabilize at around 5.0 to 5.5 which is a good range for Heckels.
You can often do everything you want with soft water fishes by subtracting rather than adding chemicals.


I agree Larry, it is much simpler just subtracting rather than adding. You will find that WC's, even Heckels can be tolerant with gradual variations in the water.

Don't forget that it is your fish that will tell you if they have the correct water conditions and not the opposite !

[Apistomaster]

I think I would like to know more about the new Singapore water as in the comprehensive water quality test report that I am sure is available to you upon request.
Recycled water can be as pure as used in laboratories to barely potable.

Some rich Middle eastern countries make pure water using distillation of seawater and even industrial RO systems so the source of the water isn't necessarily important but the information about the finished product is. I can't imagine that your new water system is much different than most municipal water supplies here in the USA. In the past, Singapore may have done little to raise the pH but most of the world now does because it reduces corrosion of the pumps and distribution pipes all the way to include your homes plumbing.
I suspect that is the only real difference between your old "good" water and the new "bad" water.

I don't understand the comments about problems testing the pH of RO water at all.
It will have a pH that can easily be measured. Ideally, it should be 7.0 and 0 ppm TDS but I know that it almost always is different. For example: My tap water has a pH of 7.4 but the RO water comes out being slightly acidic. I'm not using the final mix bed DI cartridge which I suspect would make the finished product test closer to 7.0. When I am wanting soft water I always want acidic water too so my results are fine with me.

I have a feeling that your new water is fine but just not as chemically ideal as before for soft water fish. I'm sure there are many suppliers who can sell you a good compact RO system but one company I have done business with, www.airwaterice.com has a good deal on a 150 gpd RO unit with a lot of nice features and accessories, including in line TDS monitoring, alerts, adapters for connecting to your source of various types and a hand held meter all for only US$270.00. I wouldn't think it would cost more than US$100.00 to ship. It cost me about $60 for freight and agent fees to buy a $35 pair of wild Betta from Bangkok so about $100 to ship a good, comprehensive, and compact RO system doesn't seem like a lot to me.
You can set RO units in various ways, permanent or attach to faucet as needed.
You can use long lengths of flexible clear tubing, safe for potable water, wrapped in a coils and exposed to the heat so it is warmed to ambient or outdoor temps. It is also possible to use an in line mixing system where a small portion of your tap water is blended back into the RO water to replace the basic minerals to whatever degree you desire.(I'm assuming your new water is now more like most USA water) It sounds complicated but isn't really and the idea is to eliminate the need for a water reservoir system. Your tropical location can be harnessed to eliminate the need to have a reservoir if I am right about your new water I would be sure to base the design on what you learn from the public agency supplying your water. They will have a report so comprehensive to prove how safe the water is that what we fish keepers care about is covered and the least of their concerns.
The point is that information is free and would cost a fortune to determine independently and is invaluable to you.

[illumnae]

I think I would like to know more about the new Singapore water as in the comprehensive water quality test report that I am sure is available to you upon request.
Recycled water can be as pure as used in laboratories to barely potable.

Some rich Middle eastern countries make pure water using distillation of seawater and even industrial RO systems so the source of the water isn't necessarily important but the information about the finished product is. I can't imagine that your new water system is much different than most municipal water supplies here in the USA. In the past, Singapore may have done little to raise the pH but most of the world now does because it reduces corrosion of the pumps and distribution pipes all the way to include your homes plumbing.
I suspect that is the only real difference between your old "good" water and the new "bad" water.

I don't understand the comments about problems testing the pH of RO water at all.
It will have a pH that can easily be measured. Ideally, it should be 7.0 and 0 ppm TDS but I know that it almost always is different. For example: My tap water has a pH of 7.4 but the RO water comes out being slightly acidic. I'm not using the final mix bed DI cartridge which I suspect would make the finished product test closer to 7.0. When I am wanting soft water I always want acidic water too so my results are fine with me.

I have a feeling that your new water is fine but just not as chemically ideal as before for soft water fish. I'm sure there are many suppliers who can sell you a good compact RO system but one company I have done business with, www.airwaterice.com has a good deal on a 150 gpd RO unit with a lot of nice features and accessories, including in line TDS monitoring, alerts, adapters for connecting to your source of various types and a hand held meter all for only US$270.00. I wouldn't think it would cost more than US$100.00 to ship. It cost me about $60 for freight and agent fees to buy a $35 pair of wild Betta from Bangkok so about $100 to ship a good, comprehensive, and compact RO system doesn't seem like a lot to me.
You can set RO units in various ways, permanent or attach to faucet as needed.
You can use long lengths of flexible clear tubing, safe for potable water, wrapped in a coils and exposed to the heat so it is warmed to ambient or outdoor temps. It is also possible to use an in line mixing system where a small portion of your tap water is blended back into the RO water to replace the basic minerals to whatever degree you desire.(I'm assuming your new water is now more like most USA water) It sounds complicated but isn't really and the idea is to eliminate the need for a water reservoir system. Your tropical location can be harnessed to eliminate the need to have a reservoir if I am right about your new water I would be sure to base the design on what you learn from the public agency supplying your water. They will have a report so comprehensive to prove how safe the water is that what we fish keepers care about is covered and the least of their concerns.
The point is that information is free and would cost a fortune to determine independently and is invaluable to you.

Hey Larry, thanks so much for your insight. I've done some research on my own and I think you're right. The urban legend going around in our local aquatic community seems to be no more than a legend. From what I can find, the recycled water is extremely pure, and is about as good as RO water. So, it's not this that's causing the problems.

It may well be that during dry/stormy weather, additional chemicals are added to the water during the purification process (of tap water, not the recycled water) and it is these chemicals, together with the pH raising chemicals you mentioned that is giving my fish much grief.

Nonetheless, whatever the cause of the problem is (and I stand corrected that it was the recycled water), the problem of poor water still remains. I am particularly interested in setting up the RO/DI system to be a detatchable one that I can remove and store when not in use, and set it up to connect to my 16mm tap that I currently use for water changes when I do my water changes. I'll probably have to look a little deeper into designing such a system. One way I can think of, is to use the 10" tap water filter system that I mentioned/linked earlier (http://s842.photobucket.com/home/tsktll/allalbums), and trying to find an RO membrane that will fit into one of the cartridges, if such a membrane even exists. However, I have a feeling that this doesn't really exist =(

As a side note, here's the info on our tap water. TDS ranges from 60 to 350 depending on which waterworks supplies your water.

http://www.pub.gov.sg/general/Pages/WaterTreatment.aspx

[Apistomaster]

illumnae,

Your "new" water is indeed being treated in exactly the way I suspected.
The variations are ranging too much for use as is for Heckels for their long term health but not so bad as to cause them any immediate harm.
Basically you have lost the ability to count on having the same chemistry out of the tap as you could before.
No RO membranes are made that fit the standard 10 inch filter stage containers. The RO membrane always comes in a separate cylinder attached to the same frame which holds all your 10 inch pre- and post filtration media so if you are to gain 100% control over your water chemistry you must begin with an RO unit which is adequate for the volume of water you routinely change.
I think a 150 gallons per day capacity RO system would meet all your requirements.
I do think your tap water has decent balance of electrolytes which make it an acceptable source of remineralization to whatever degree is necessary to reach your desired target values.
The problems which need to be solved are:
1. How to raise the product/standard water consisting primarily of RO water to the temperature your fish are being kept in. It seems to me that since you live in such a constantly tropical climate that all you need to do is construct a heat exchanger out of clear flexible tubing wrapped around some core) 1/2 inch PVC pipe or even a dowel) which is then enclosed inside a larger diameter black plastic pipe so the cooler water is raised to an acceptably high temperature. I know this is not difficult since I have easily extended the OUT GOING, Low pressure, RO Line by merely slipping the semi-rigid JACO tubing used on most RO units a few inches up inside flexible clear Polyvinyl tubing. Enclosing enough tubing inside a larger diameter, plastic black pipe section, exposed to outdoor high temps, not indoors air conditioned temps. The water should be easily heated by passive exposure to warmer air and or sun until it is at least coming out at 80*F/27*C.

2. I would use a combination of JACO fittings and valves which would permit the introduction of some tap water into the out flow of pure RO water before the blended water is moved through the long extended flexible plastic tubing. You would have to extend it far enough to accommodate the section running through the simple heat exchanger and to reach any of your tanks. Even at maximum efficiencies and assuming a 150 gpd RO unit it will tank time to refill your tanks after every water change. You should also use a cheap water level alert so you are reminded of when the tank is approaching top off to avoid floods.
I don't have any ideas how to resolve this slow refilling of your tanks if you cannot set up a reasonably large storage reservoir of one or two 55 gal plastic barrels certified potable water safe.
If you have such a reservoir system then you could eliminate the complicated blending plumbing and heat exchanger I incorporated into the design intended to be used without any reservoir.
I am sorry if my no reservoir design seems a bit too Rube Goldberg-like but not allowing for a reservoir system really complicates any RO water supply and delivery system design for your tanks.

I use my RO Unit so it can be temporarily to a faucet because I also have some tight space constraints. I replaced my bath room sink with a plastic laundry tub and am able to connect the RO unit to the faucet. I have an old house which was remodeled many times before I bought it. I managed to set uo 2-55 gal potable water plastic barrels in the bathroom. I had to temporarily remove the door and push the barrels through the substandard wide opening but I managed with the help of a friend. I set up each barrel on a 2 inch piece of high density styrofoam covered with 1/2 inch plywood. This is because I live in a cooler climate and needed to reduce heat loss do to contact with the cold floor during the winter. Each barrel has bulkheads at their base and are connected by barbed fittings and a short length of flexible one inch plastic tubing so I have 110 gal storage capacity. I heat the barrels and run a small recirculation pump to keep the water usable temperature and uniform chemistry. I use a small amount of tap water as my source of mineral reconstitution.
I use a MagDrive Model 9.5 water pump fitted with a garden hose adapter so I can use 2- 25 feet long potable water Recreational vehicle hoses. I can pump water easily through 50 feet of hose and as high as the highest tank tops which are about 6 feet, 6 inches above the floor.
The tanks are on racks 3 shelves high and this system refills all the tanks quickly but especially those on the middle and lower shelves. I need to get a new RO unit with higher daily production so I can shorten the time it takes to refill my reservoirs. Mine is a Maxxima Hi-S 60 gpd and rather than replacing the membrane I will use that approximately $100 towards the purchase of a 150 gpd or greater RO unit but even after 5 years, my RO membrane continues to work too well to just throw it away. I am pretty good about changing the 1 micron first stage filters (3 times a year) and that helps extend the life of the expensive RO membrane.

[illumnae]

Thanks so much for your insightful and informative (and long!) post Larry. I've purchased a TDS meter last Friday and have been testing my water over the weekend. It seems that I got a good waterworks, as out of the tap, my water tests at 79-80 TDS consistently (no super hot weather or thunderstorms though). In the tank however, the water is a shocking 280 TDS "old" and 170 TDS after a fresh water change.

Stuff I add to my tank:

Seachem Prime (usually in excess)
Seachem Purigen
Sera Super Peat

A one-off addition (that I added last week only) was a few spoons of "Bioearth" powder (http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366578) but I won't be adding that anymore. That may be what contributed to the unusually high TDS in the tank pre-waterchange.

80 TDS from tap seems good enough for the fish, and I've been checking around here and RO systems cost between $400-$600 depending on capacity, and to be perfectly frank I can't afford that outlay. I'm hesitent to ship in a set from the US for 2 main reasons: #1 potential incompatibility of barb fittings and #2 maintenance problems in case of faults arising.

The construction of a reconstuting removable system also seems beyond my ability (i'm a klutz). DIY isn't as big in Singapore as it is in the US, so availability of materials is another consideration point. All in all, RO water really seems impossible for me, as I stated earlier. I know it seems impossible that there's such a huge barrier to entry for setting up of RO systems here in Singapore, but it's really very uncommon here compared to other countries :(

But I really do appreciate everyone's input and help to try and solve my problem...I'm afraid I really do have to think out of the box here, and I'm currently drawing blanks

[illumnae]

Just a thought...if I get the sediment pre-filter and carbon block filter for my tap water, I'd have 0 chlorine/chloramines from water coming out of the filter into the tank. This means I don't have to add Seachem Prime, and won't that reduce my TDS?

Is the addition of peat necessary, or will it increase my TDS as well?

I need a reliable way to reduce pH in 80 TDS water without increasing the TDS =(

[Apistomaster]

I have depended on peat less than in the past. Now I mainly use some in the acclimation tanks of newly imported Heckels and Greens but after a couple weeks I gradually switch them over to just soft, acid water sans peat.
I recommend using Muriatic Acid to lower the pH without effecting the TDS/EC much but that means having a water storage reservoir so you may make these changes away from the fish. The carbon block filters do remove nearly all the chlorine dissolved or the chloramines.
If that leaves you with about 80 ppm TDS water then I would call that good and use the acid to lower the pH. Not having a separate reservoir really makes it difficult to give you much useful advice.
I don't care much for using peat any more except to breed annual Killiefish or to make small batches of water to use in attempts to breed some of the small black water species like those in the genus, Boraras, wild Betta species in the B. coccina complex, some Tetras and the like. I may use some peat during the initial 2 weeks of receiving newly imported Green or Heckel Discus but then I gradually stop using the peat. Whether or not I bother with the peat depends on my assessment of how much proper acclimation the Discus have already received. If you want to get some of the tint and other organics into your Discus water I recommend using Keta Pang leaves over peat but that won't lower the pH a whole lot.

[illumnae]

Thanks again Larry. My water from the tap (including chloramines) is 80. After the carbon block filtering, with chloramines removed, it should be lower shouldn't it, especially if I'm not adding antichlorine in (which probably bumps up TDS)?

Acid isn't possible as you pointed out, as I have no water storage. It's also hard to get muriatic acid here in Singapore. There's alot of controls over chemicals here. We can't even get KNO3, a common hydroponic/farming fertilizer for our planted tank fertilization due to such controls. The government considers it a terrorist threat as KNO3 can potentially be used in home made bombs.

In such a case, what can I use in my relatively low TDS water to reduce the pH to levels that the Heckels will love, if peat is not recommended? I can easily get lots of Ketapang leaves at an affordable price (20+ leaves sell for $1 here), but as you pointed out it will probably not lower the pH much. Would placing a bag of ADA soil in the filter work? ADA Africana as a substrate lowers ph to the mid 5s. I'm not sure of its effect in a filter though, and whether it would exhaust faster in a filter

[Apistomaster]

Sounds like all you can do is hope your Discus are happy in your tap water and keep up your water changes. You would be better off keeping the more adaptable wild S. haraldi than S. discus or S. aequifasciata. It is unfortunate that the government had to change the water chemistry you were counting on for your Heckels.

I don't think a typical TDS/EC meter made for aquarium use or checking how well a household RO system is working is sufficiently precise to render a different reading between chlorinated tap water and carbon filtered tap water. You need to use a chlorine test kit. There are some cheap colormetric test kits available for testing the chlorine/chloramines content in water.

[illumnae]

I'm back!

Larry sorry I have more questions about the setting up of a portable RO system. One thing that always puzzles me is how the waste water from RO is gotten rid of, since I've never owned an RO system. Will I have to connect a hose leading to a drain to drain away the waste water while I'm filling the tank? It's usually 4 units of waste water per unit of RO water right? Which means to change 200 litres of water (my usual change amount), I have to use 1000 litres of water total O_O

The unit I'm looking at is this one:

http://www.airwaterice.com/product/HURRICANE/Hurricane-Dual-HomeReef-with-Permeate-Pump-Tank.html

I'm currently buying bottles of distilled water for drinking purposes. This puts me back about $40 a month. I figure maybe if I set up that RO water system, it can serve a dual purpose of water changes + drinking water. In such a case, I'd have to set up a permanent drain pipe to drain away waste water right?

[illumnae]

Another possible unit off ebay from a seller with high reviews is:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/REEF-HOME-DRINKING-RO-DI-REVERSE-OSMOSIS-WATER-FILTER-/200479316077?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ead7f986d#ht_7869wt_1133

[Apistomaster]

I think the easiest way to handle the enriched "waste water" from an RO Unit being intermittently set up is to simply cut a section a couple inches long off the JACO waste line, take it to a well stocked hardware store, then see which size of flexible polyvinyl flexible clear tubing the JACO tube will snugly slip inside enough(1-1/2 to 2 inches) to form a leak proof connection. You will still be able to work this connection apart if the need arises. Then buy however much you need to reach the handiest drain available for this excess water. I tried hard to find the original printed size on my tubing but it's all been worn off over the years so you need to use trial and error method.

The other alternative is use the stiff JACO tubing and extend it with a JACO union fitting but it is stiff and the lack of flexibility can be very annoying when you have to work around it. The flexible tubing lets you run it through/around in ways that are less intrusive.
I actually use these extensions of flexible tubing for the few times when I chose to run RO water some distance to a tank where cool RO water would not be an issue. Sometimes I run the waste outdoors to top off my mosquito larvae pools.

I can't advise you on which RO unit is best for you. I have liked doing business with www.airwaterice.com and I have seriously considered their 150 gpd Typhoon set but I would prefer to see what my options are for a 300 gpd unit. Just slightly doubling my present RO output is not going to help me as much as I would like.

[Frankr409]

I can't advise you on which RO unit is best for you. I have liked doing business with www.airwaterice.com and I have seriously considered their 150 gpd Typhoon set but I would prefer to see what my options are for a 300 gpd unit. Just slightly doubling my present RO output is not going to help me as much as I would like.

Larry, I have the Air/Water/Ice Typhoon III extreme for my tank and I am very satisfied with the amount and quality of the water. With the built in pressure gauge, and TDS monitor you are always in the know.

[illumnae]

Thanks for your advice Larry and your recommendation Frank :) I'm leaning towards the Typhoon III extreme myself. One thing that concerned me was that their instructions said I needed to pierce the drain pipe. However, if simply putting the output hose over a sink or a drainhole will do, then I can rest easy :) What I can simply do is to set up the RO system in the toilet whenever I need to run the RO water. The waste water can come out all over the floor, while the RO water will be connected either straight to the tank, or to a storage container (I'm seriously looking around for space to set one up!). After filling, the RO system can be dismantled and stored for next use!

[Apistomaster]

The typhoon Exreme III was the package I have been considering because it is an excellent value. But I have a 60 gd unit and as I mentioned above, a bit more than double that output is slow if I am making water changes of 100 or more gallons per day.
A higher daily output of 300 gpd will reduce the waiting time considerably.

Sometimes I am making fewer, smaller RO water changes but then there are other times when I am trying to simulate the wet seasons and these peak periods are limited by the maximum daily production capacity of the RO unit. Even just to do 3/4 water changes for a 75 gal and a 125 gal tank each day for awhile would be difficult with the 150 gpd unit and then it also takes time to warm it up to Discus temperatures, But generally speaking, I think the Typhoon III would be a very good choice for most people with a lower peak volume need. That is the factor which ultimately determines how high of a daily RO production the unit needs to be capable of.
Most of the time I figure the Typhoon III would work for me and that set comes with many nice features and accessories which makes it hard deal to beat.
I only have about 1000 gallons of water between all my tanks but sometimes I find myself wanting more RO water much faster than the Typhoon III delivers.
If I had room for two more 55 gal plastic barrels then I know I could get by with it but I only have room for 2 barrels.

[illumnae]

The typhoon Exreme III was the package I have been considering because it is an excellent value. But I have a 60 gd unit and as I mentioned above, a bit more than double that output is slow if I am making water changes of 100 or more gallons per day.
A higher daily output of 300 gpd will reduce the waiting time considerably.

Sometimes I am making fewer, smaller RO water changes but then there are other times when I am trying to simulate the wet seasons and these peak periods are limited by the maximum daily production capacity of the RO unit. Even just to do 3/4 water changes for a 75 gal and a 125 gal tank each day for awhile would be difficult with the 150 gpd unit and then it also takes time to warm it up to Discus temperatures, But generally speaking, I think the Typhoon III would be a very good choice for most people with a lower peak volume need. That is the factor which ultimately determines how high of a daily RO production the unit needs to be capable of.
Most of the time I figure the Typhoon III would work for me and that set comes with many nice features and accessories which makes it hard deal to beat.
I only have about 1000 gallons of water between all my tanks but sometimes I find myself wanting more RO water much faster than the Typhoon III delivers.
If I had room for two more 55 gal plastic barrels then I know I could get by with it but I only have room for 2 barrels.

My load requirements are much lower. I have a 120gal and a 65 gal currently, with plans to set up a small breeding rack with a combined total of 60gal. I don't do more than 50% of water change on any one day, so I could actually get by on a cheaper 60-75gal system if need be. My only problem really is the constraints highlighted above, as well as the desire not to have to make any permanent damage to my home (ie I don't want to pierce any of my water pipes to act as a water source/drain)

[Apistomaster]

I think an adapter for faucets comes with that Typhoon III kit which allows you to connect an adapter directly to most faucets after you remove the aerator from the faucet so you don't have to make any holes for the permanent connection and if I am wrong, they sell the screw on adapter for about US$3.00.

Being able to extend the source line or drain lines solves most any other problems associated with a temporary connected. Mine is used in a temporary mode but by extending the source tube I am able to leave it mounted on the wall closer to my reservoirs so it is less in the way at all times.

It sounds to me like you have a bathroom designed with a floor drain so water spills are not a problem. With all lines extended as necessary, you should be able to wall mount your RO unit in a location which is conveniently out of the way when in use or not and I use an extended drain line and it is allowed to drain into the bathtub. That is how I mounted my RO unit. It is on the wall opposite of the sink I use as my source water.
I wouldn't want to have it in the way of access to the toilet.
The so-called waste water is still quite suitable for use with many fish since it has only been enriched about 20% with dissolved minerals but has otherwise been filtered for fine particulates and through carbon to remove chlorine and other chemicals. It is actually improved in water quality but is slightly higher in TDS than the source water. The extensions may be made long enough to water plants or use in other tanks for less demanding or harder water preferring fish so it doesn't always just end up going down a drain. Any uses you can find for the waste water helps make the volume of mineral enriched waste water seem less wasteful of expensive drinking water that must be used to produce a relatively smaller volume of RO water.

[illumnae]

Thanks Larry, but it appears I won't be purchasing from Airwaterice. I sent them a bunch of queries, but they sent me a curt reply informing me that they won't ship overseas. If they had just answered my queries I'd have just arranged for a postal service to pick it up from them and send it to me, but I'm quite dissatisfied with their lack of customer service. I'll probably end up getting the Ebay one which has most of the features of the Typhoon, but doesn't come with the brand name and comes at a lower price.

Just a stupid query: The RO system doesn't require a power source right?

[jimg]

abundant flow water systems is good to deal with

[Apistomaster]

I believe what jimgalb meant what that if you have good water pressure that is sufficient.
Off the top of my head, I think 35 to 45 psi are fairly normal "good" water pressures.
However, there are two factors needed to get maximize efficiency from RO units, water pressure and temperature. You can use a booster pump specifically designed for use with RO processing units which can boost the pressure to 80 psi. I have tap water pressures within the 35 to 45 psi and that has been fine but I am considering using a booster pump when I upgrade to a higher volume RO unit rated at at least 300 gpd because the more RO water I make, any extra efficiency I can gain will reduce the rejection rate(waste water flow).
The other factor affecting efficiency is the source water temperature. During the winter the tap water is pretty cold where I live. If the source water temperature is 70 to 80*F or about 26*C, further gains in efficiency are there to be had. I have been too lazy to try it yet but I am using a mixing faucet which allows me to adjust the source water temperatures higher whenever I get around to trying it. Using the highest pressures the RO unit is designed to handle and water temperature that are lukewarm do make significant improvements to efficiency.
Some are of the opinion that no water should be used from the hot water supply. I think their concerns involve the possibilities that the hot water side may have a higher content of heavy metal ions, primarily copper. but some lead, possibly from soldered connections, may be present. Maybe this is true in very new construction but for most homes that are at least several years old. I think the copper pipes and connections should have formed oxidants on the exposed surfaces which effectively prevent heavy metals accumulating.
Even so, one should flush the standing water from the pipes before using it any way including before connecting to the RO units. At the very least this flushing will reduce any inital surge of accumulated particulates which will help extend the micron filter cartridge life. Furthermore, it is good practice to allow the RO unit run 15 to 30 minutes before using it anyway. Upon start up, RO product water will have a higher measure TDS than it will have after letting it run these few minutes before beginning to store it in a reservoir or use it directly.
These are slight tweaks which probably don't matter much in practice.

Most of my fish water is use it straight from the tap. I use a mixing faucet to adjust my water to the desired temperature and add Prime directly to the aquariums I am topping off after my typical 70% water changes. I have used this method for all the years I have been keeping fish. I use RO water almost entirely for breeding some fish which may extend to longer term projects like breeding some wild Discus. I gave up Heckels but I still want to try breeding wild Green Discus. I have been able to breed wild S. haraldi in water very different from what has been recorded in their native waters. Wild S haraldi have produced a lot of fry for me using tap water with a pH of 7.6. KH 8 and GH 12.
They seem to breed despite unorthodox water chemistry. If they have decided to spawn it is hard to stop them. The eggs hatched well and the fry did well. I would not expect wild Green Discus to be as accommodating. And I have given up trying to breed Heckels.

About the only topic not discussed yet is the possibility of having tap water which is supersaturated with dissolved molecular nitrogen gas from the mains. I'm only mentioning this because a recent case, which was better documented than most, was the subject on a thread about it on planetcatfish recently. It is relevant to this discussion only because I said I use tap water directly from the faucet without any "aging"; just dechlor/dechloramination. It should not ever be an issue if one does "age" their water even if only briefly.
I have never encountered any problems with nitrogen supersaturation before.
I have only heard about it. It can occur but I think it is a rare phenomenon in tap water.
It is serious problem here in the hydroelectric dams. Cold water experiencing abrupt drops in pressure does create the fish equivalent of the "bends" and injures many down stream migrating Salmonid fingerlings. Now many are rounded up and netted then trucked below the dams to reduce these kinds of losses.

[illumnae]

Thanks for the informative post as always Larry :) I think jimgalb is referring to Abundant Water Systems, which is another RO system dealer who ships to Singapore. I think he was giving me a lead to another RO system after I posted about my bad experience with AWI's lack of customer service :)

I'm currently deciding between the ebay dealer I posted earlier and Abundant Water Systems. Both respond to my emails and queries within 24 hours (AWS much faster than the ebay seller), but the ebay seller sells a cheaper system with more bells and whistles.

It's basically:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/150-GPD-AQUARIUM-REEF-REVERSE-OSMOSIS-2DI-WATER-SYSTEM-/200474390412?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ead346f8c

vs

http://www.abundantflowwater.com/html/aquarium_filters.html

at this point.

[jimg]

Yes I was referring to abundant flow water systems also hb water systems. I have been dealing with them for years now with nothing but the best advice and products from them. I have all my whole house filters as well as 2 ro units from them. I had a problem one time and they did more than they had to to make it right.

[Apistomaster]

Both suppliers have some pretty nice units at good prices.
Having them respond shows they care about getting your patronage and that is a good sign.
I will have to look into a larger system for my replacement unit. I'm not about to pay Maxxima prices for their replacement RO membranes(~US$100). Better to spend it towards the purchase of an entirely new, 5X the rated capacity of the HI-S 60 gpd system I presently have. I begin with source water that is borderline moderately soft/moderately hard. It's relative as to what you consider hard or soft water. 340 ppm TDS is not all that high for public water supplies in the USA. Even without using DI post filtration, yields product water with about 7 ppm TDS, assuming a new membrane, which is good enough for any fish I care to breed My formative years as a nascent wild Discus breeder were in an adjacent city which draws their water supplies from the local Snake River and is much harder water than the water from wells over 300 feet deep in my present home city. That water is ancient, but despite coming from water trapped in deep volcanic rocks, the hardness is surprising low but far from ideal for breeding the most demanding soft water fishes.
I would remain a bit skeptical of 1:3 production rates. I am sure that is only possible at sufficient pressure and source water temperature. All vendors claims are based on ideal conditions. I will definitely expand my search beyond www.airewaterice.com as a result of what I have learned here about other vendors.

It is good news that you now have a couple good vendors from whom to chose to buy the equipment which should easily meet your needs.

[jimg]

I buy most of the replacement filters from, air water ice and I find dow 75 gpd ro membranes online for about 40.00.
I found you would get lower tds readings from less gpd membranes. tds was about 12 to 15 with a 100gpd membrane and 7 to 8 tds with a 75 gpd. so I use 2-75gpd units.
My tap water is about 250 tds but sometimes goes to 330.
I think the rate of 1 to 3 waste is low too, I think it's more like 1 to 6 with water temp at about 55deg and pressure at 45. Hopefully someday they will come up with something other than the ro I hate throwing filtered water down the pump pit!

[Apistomaster]

I share your same wish and 1:6 sounds more like what happens in normal home conditions.
I think you are correct about used membranes being better at producing purer water but at some point there is a trade off between higher production rates from a brand new membrane at the expense of more effective sieve performance and lower volumes of purer water from older membranes.

[jimg]

I share your same wish and 1:6 sounds more like what happens in normal home conditions.
I think you are correct about used membranes being better at producing purer water but at some point there is a trade off between higher production rates from a brand new membrane at the expense of more effective sieve performance and lower volumes of purer water from older membranes.

I didn't mean used membranes. I meant that the higher gpd a membrane is rated for the higher the tds count will be. I may have worded that wrong.

[illumnae]

From what I've been reading, it seems that the 75gpd membranes do have a higher rejection rate (and thus produces purer water) than the 100gpd membranes. However, the 150gpd membranes have the same/better rejection rates as the 75 gpd membranes. Not sure about anything higher than that though

[illumnae]

Assuming my water storage (if I manage to fit one in) will be about 20-25 feet from the tank, and the tank is elevated above the storage (storage will be from ground level, while the tank is on a standard cabinet and the top of the tank is about 5-6 feet off the ground, what kind of pump will I need to send the water from inside of the water storage into the tank itself? Would a standard aquarium pump do (the type you put in sumps to drive water back into the tank) or would the head/power be too low to drive the water all the way back into the tank?

[chongtk]

PURE RO WATER + ph down + lots of double black water

[Apistomaster]

PURE RO WATER + ph down + lots of double black water

Your formula will result in a higher TDS than is consistent with their natural waters.
Better to use a lower amount of a stronger acid like hydrochloric or sulfuric acid.

[illumnae]

I got my RO/DI unit. The RO is a 100gpd membrane, so it's 90% rejection rate. From RO the TDS is 9 (80-90tds from tap) and after the DI it's 0. I'm ordering a 193 litre water storage barrel (which, annoyingly, costs almost as much as the RO/DI unit itself!) that will come this weekend. Can't wait to set it all up to give my fish good water!

[Apistomaster]

Congratulations on getting your "designer water' set up.
Please keep in mind what we have discussed via PM's and make any changes to your Heckel's water gradually.

[illumnae]

I will Larry :)

Water from RO/DI was 0 TDS, strangely 8.6pH when fresh from the system

After standing it for 14 hours, it's 0 TDS, 6.9pH.

How much Seachem Equilibrium should I dose to reconstitute (is it even necessary to reconstitute?)? I do intend to soak peat in there for tannins and other good stuff. I know it's not necessary but I think the fish would appreciate it :) For these first few rounds of water changes I'll just soak peat in a filter bag by hanging it in the water (probably off the float switch lol). I'll eventually get round to having an air driven box filter filled with peat instead of media in order to get it well mixed and to "pull" the good stuff out of the peat more effectively than just soaking

[Apistomaster]

Highly recommended reading although some more per per Altum Angels but much pertains to Heckels and I raised similar issues about Heckels might need deeper water and larger tanks for breeding to become more frequent long ago.
http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/heiko.htm
http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/heiko1.htm More about peat use in Heckel water.

[illumnae]

Highly recommended reading although some more per per Altum Angels but much pertains to Heckels and I raised similar issues about Heckels might need deeper water and larger tanks for breeding to become more frequent long ago.
http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/heiko.htm
http://www.finarama.com/tba/chronicles/heiko1.htm More about peat use in Heckel water.

Thanks for the links Larry!

I've done my first water change. I allowed the TDS to slowly creep up to ~150, and did a 20% water change to reduce it down to its usual level of ~120. The water I used to change was aged RO/DI water sitting at 0 TDS for 36 hours. the pH was 8.6 upon creation, dropped to 6.9 at 14 hours and ended up stable at ~6.0.

I dropped in a bag of peat at 14 hours, but I doubt it contributed much as the bag was simply floating in still water and the water was not filtered through. After 22 hours of peat floating in the water, the TDS was still 0 and the water not tannin stained at all. I think the water didn't soak through the peat yet.

However, as the storage container is now again being filled, I hung the peat just below the float switch, so the water has to flow through the peat bag while the container is filling. Hopefully that will produce better results in staining the water and lowering the pH.

I will test the tank pH tomorrow. Last measured pre-water change was 6.6. I will do another 20% water change in 2 days, which will hopefully drop the TDS to between 90 and 100. Hopefully the Heckels (and other fish in the tank) will slowly get acclimated to their new good water!

If the peat continues not to work, I'll switch to Ketapang/Catappa/Indian Almond leaves. I can get about 15 leaves for $1, which I believe should be enough for an entire 52 gallon barrel a couple times over. $1 per 1-2 water changes isn't too bad Anyone know if peat is very much better than Ketapang? An unscientific pH lowering test was done in another forum I visited. Basically, the tester found that in his sample water volume, peat lowered the pH to 4.0 while Ketapang leaves lowered the pH to 4.5, which is close enough in my books. However, I'm not sure if the Ketapang leaves release the same tannins/good stuff that the peat does, since peat comes so highly recommended by Heiko and all.

[illumnae]

pH has dropped to 6.3 tonight. Tomorrow will be another water change.

Anyone know about the comparison between peat and Ketapang leaves? I know betta breeders here use almost exclusively Ketapang leaves instead of peat to get their blackwater/low pH effect. Just want to know if I'm missing out on any "good stuff" by switching

Also, would it be bad to put the peat/ketapang leaves in one of the filters? The peat isn't doing much to stain the water sitting in the storage barrel. I don't think I'll go ahead with my plan to install aeration in there due to the cover, which is supposed to keep dust etc out. The peat has been sitting in there days and the water isn't staining brown. Would peat/ketapang leaves in the filter cause pH to crash below 4?

Also, is it safe to do water changes with pure RO/DI water if I plan to keep the pH at about 4? If not, how much reconstitution medium (Seachem Equilibrium) would I have to add to maintain that?

[jimg]

pH has dropped to 6.3 tonight. Tomorrow will be another water change.

Anyone know about the comparison between peat and Ketapang leaves? I know betta breeders here use almost exclusively Ketapang leaves instead of peat to get their blackwater/low pH effect. Just want to know if I'm missing out on any "good stuff" by switching

I used peat about 8 years ago and was never happy with it. I bought some high grade ketapang leaves from Amy's about 3 months ago and am very impressed with them. leach tannins much faster,lower ph about the same as drift wood. They are supposed to ward off parasites, we'll see!

[Apistomaster]

Dry Peat takes awhile to become waterlogged and begin leaching out it's mysterious goodies.
I was given a bag of KetaPang leave by Ed Ruiz then misplaced then so I haven't yet tried them but I think they may be better than peat.
Since I rarely use peat water when i do i use the KetaPeat nuggets and I like the results much better but it is too expensive for all but smaller projects. Last time I used it for discus was during the initial acclimation months when I bought the 10 small heckels which have since long grown up and sold after 4+ years. When they were still new imports it was obvious that they were very comfortable in the peat stained water but I departed from all the advice and made mine live in tap water. I decided there were factors needed to breed Heckels which I could or would not duplicate. Water was one of those issues.
One of these days I'll have to get a larger amount of Ketapang leaves and see how I like the results.
I think peat is fine and it is the cheapest. I have mostly used it to breed annual killiefish and I prefer to boil it to make it sink immediately and leach out excess tannins I did not want to use with my killies. You can boil it and not rinse it for more rapid use. Then allow some to be prepared more slowly for future exchanges of fresh peat. Just bringing it to a boil then remove it from heat is enough to get it to sink. No need to boil it so long you degrade its worth.

[illumnae]

Ketapang leaves are actually cheaper for me than peat where I am. I can get them as cheaply as free if I pick them myself (they're native here), or S$1 (US$0.70) per 15-20 leaves. If they're gonna be better than peat then I'd use them for sure. I can even re-use the leeched leaves as tank decor for a leaf litter look in my biotope tank before they start rotting and I remove them.

Anyone know if ~5 leaves per 52gallon barrel left overnight is good enough? The leaves would then go straight into the tank anyway

[jimg]

Ketapang leaves are actually cheaper for me than peat where I am. I can get them as cheaply as free if I pick them myself (they're native here), or S$1 (US$0.70) per 15-20 leaves. If they're gonna be better than peat then I'd use them for sure. I can even re-use the leeched leaves as tank decor for a leaf litter look in my biotope tank before they start rotting and I remove them.

Anyone know if ~5 leaves per 52gallon barrel left overnight is good enough? The leaves would then go straight into the tank anyway

I would think 5 good size leaves is what I use. I don't know if I would do the leaf litter look though. Whenever I put them in the tanks after a few days they seem to harbor too much left over food a debris.

[illumnae]

Good point jim! I've had pretty good experience with leaf litter looks in small tanks, but they're easier to clean than the heckel tank. I'll definitely take that into consideration and may abandon that look.

I'll go ahead to soak 5 large leaves in my water storage barrel tonight. Hopefully the water will be conditioned better than with peat. I removed the peat from my barrel last night after my water change.

After last night's water change, TDS was 74. pH at that point remained at 6.3, but I will check again tonight. Last night I mixed 10% tap water (with Seachem Prime) with the RO water during the water change. Will gradually shift towards pure RO changes.

Heckels are well on their way to designer water!

[jimg]

Good point jim! I've had pretty good experience with leaf litter looks in small tanks, but they're easier to clean than the heckel tank. I'll definitely take that into consideration and may abandon that look.

I'll go ahead to soak 5 large leaves in my water storage barrel tonight. Hopefully the water will be conditioned better than with peat. I removed the peat from my barrel last night after my water change.

After last night's water change, TDS was 74. pH at that point remained at 6.3, but I will check again tonight. Last night I mixed 10% tap water (with Seachem Prime) with the RO water during the water change. Will gradually shift towards pure RO changes.

Heckels are well on their way to designer water!



Sounds good! let me know how 5 did. I ordered more leaves and will try them the same.

[illumnae]

Water stablized at 2TDS 6.0pH. pH is too high for my liking :( Very nice tint though!

I may have to resort to peat to get the pH to 4 it seems

[NanDiscus]

Illumnae,

I just read your post further up about the RO unit you're using. If your feed TDS is 80-90 and the product water is 9ppm it means, that you either have a not-so-good membrane or -and this is more likely- insufficient feed pressure. I would strongly recommend getting a pump to get the maximum out of the RO-unit, because with such low TDS feed water and 90-100psi on the membrane your product water should be very close to 0ppm. With the amount of water your project requires, the costs of replacing the DI-resin will exceed the initial investment of buying a pump very quickly.
Just a thought...

Nandi

[jimg]

Illumnae,

I just read your post further up about the RO unit you're using. If your feed TDS is 80-90 and the product water is 9ppm it means, that you either have a not-so-good membrane or -and this is more likely- insufficient feed pressure. I would strongly recommend getting a pump to get the maximum out of the RO-unit, because with such low TDS feed water and 90-100psi on the membrane your product water should be very close to 0ppm. With the amount of water your project requires, the costs of replacing the DI-resin will exceed the initial investment of buying a pump very quickly.
Just a thought...

Nandi
Something does sound off. I have water fed at 45lbs, tds of approx 250 and my ro tds is about 09 with 100 gpd membranes. 90-100 lbs pressure seems way to high anyway.

[illumnae]

Thanks for the thought, I have no idea what my feed pressure is as I don't have a PSI meter. However, the membrane I'm using is supposed to be 90-92% rejection. Isn't it right that my RO water will come out at 8-9 TDS if my input water is 80-90?

[NanDiscus]

Something does sound off. I have water fed at 45lbs, tds of approx 250 and my ro tds is about 09 with 100 gpd membranes. 90-100 lbs pressure seems way to high anyway.

Jim, if the membrane you are using is a bog standard TF-1812 of some sort, then 45psi is somewhere near the low-end of the pressure range at which it should be operated. The quality and the quantity of the product water vs. the amount of wastewater are all much better at higher pressures. 100psi is the upper limit for these membranes, at which a 100gpd RO can (under ideal circumstances) produce up to 120 gallons a day. Those who are saying that low pressures are OK, want to sell you a replacement membrane a.s.a.p. If the pressure is right, quality membranes can go up to 4-5 years without any problems. My own 300gpd unit has been running for about 5 years, the feed water is around 360ppm, the product water is 2-6ppm, depending mainly on the temperature.

Illumnae,
A pressure gauge is a handy little piece of kit to have on every RO-unit. It should not cost more that 5-10 dollars to buy one and it's well worth it. Also, most good membranes have a rejection rate of 96-98% on average and again - with decent pressure on tap they can go up to 99.5%. It also depends on what sort of dissolved substances you your mains water contains.

N./

[tacks]

Hi Since you are trying to keep a low PH have you ever tried adding muratic acid to your holding tank? Just an idea I have used for Altums Ed

[illumnae]

Illumnae,
A pressure gauge is a handy little piece of kit to have on every RO-unit. It should not cost more that 5-10 dollars to buy one and it's well worth it. Also, most good membranes have a rejection rate of 96-98% on average and again - with decent pressure on tap they can go up to 99.5%. It also depends on what sort of dissolved substances you your mains water contains.

N./

I think I know the problem. I read your post here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=661807#post661807

You said that RO membranes take time to reach their full efficiency. My 8-9 TDS measurement came as I was flushing the system. First time use. As of now, I've had the system for less than 2 weeks. I think that's why it isn't performing to its full potential yet.

My water pressure from the tap should be fine. On a 100gpd membrane, it takes about 11 hours (slightly less) to fill my 52gallon barrel. Hence, it's actually producing slightly more than the rated 100gpd. I think it should be fine?


Hi Since you are trying to keep a low PH have you ever tried adding muratic acid to your holding tank? Just an idea I have used for Altums Ed

I wish I could. Singapore government controls chemicals very very tightly. I can't even get KNO3 for fertilizing my planted tanks here, let alone muriatic acid :(

[Apistomaster]

An aquarium RO unit ought to reject 97-98% of the TDS so yes, I agree with the remarks by by others that there is a problem. RO membranes are made for different uses and some may not be optimized for the kind of purity desired in reef tanks and projects like your Heckels.
The kind of performance most of us expect from our RO units is so good that the use of a final stage DI cartridge is overkill. They are most useful when one is trying to produce acceptable laboratory water purity levels.
Even at the lower end of acceptable incoming water pressure the rejection rate should not suffer although the volume of water produced each day certainly would.

It is unfortunate that you did not have more options available to you in Singapore but until recently hobbyists in Singapore enjoyed water which was well suited to most soft water fish.

If you can at least produce RO water which is not more than 20 ppm, your Heckels will be fine. Lowering the pH of the large amounts of water needed for the water changes can not be done with peat, or at least without a huge peat filter and even then it is hard to get the pH down to 4.0 to 4.5 without using a strong acid to drop it a couple points.
Remember the pH scale is logarithmic and their is 100 times less H2 positive ions at 6.0 than 4.0. Weak organic acids released from peat are not strong enough to acidify frequently changed water down to the low end of what your target value is for your Heckels in the short time allowed.
It is worth obtaining a water pressure booster pump and if it doesn't improve the rejection rates it will at least maximize volume efficiency. I would also double check the calibration of your electronic EC/TDS meter. Be sure you perform all water tests well away from electrical equipment such as your aquarium lights. I have seen testing the same sample at the tank or in situ is often going to result in a spurious reading. The same sample of water tested at least 3 feet from electromagnetic fields will usually be much different and in a better way. This is advice I extend to electronic pH meter use as well.

When it is all said and done, you will have made a considerable improvements in making water more similar to their natural environment but Heckels are adaptable enough to still thrive in the kind of water you have been able to give them after all the new technology was put in place and I really don't think more is going to make a practical difference.
I know that obtaining strong acids, even highly diluted forms, is difficult in Singapore.
Strong acids are essential ingredients in the production of home made explosives. It is also a listed precursor chemical used to produce cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine and Singapore is just being proactive but there is also the practical matter of disposal of toxic materials. Even where the regulations are less stringent in some countries there is a system of "cradle to grave" custody trail which must be observed. It isn't that strict in the USA where every hardware store stocks Muriatic Acid, a dilute Hydrochloric acid solution in water. A one US Gallon container is only about $10(or $36 for maximum strength) and a gallon is enough to last through 10,000 or 20,000 gallons of pH adjusted water.

[jimg]

Jim, if the membrane you are using is a bog standard TF-1812 of some sort, then 45psi is somewhere near the low-end of the pressure range at which it should be operated. The quality and the quantity of the product water vs. the amount of wastewater are all much better at higher pressures. 100psi is the upper limit for these membranes, at which a 100gpd RO can (under ideal circumstances) produce up to 120 gallons a day. Those who are saying that low pressures are OK, want to sell you a replacement membrane a.s.a.p. If the pressure is right, quality membranes can go up to 4-5 years without any problems. My own 300gpd unit has been running for about 5 years, the feed water is around 360ppm, the product water is 2-6ppm, depending mainly on the temperature.

Illumnae,
A pressure gauge is a handy little piece of kit to have on every RO-unit. It should not cost more that 5-10 dollars to buy one and it's well worth it. Also, most good membranes have a rejection rate of 96-98% on average and again - with decent pressure on tap they can go up to 99.5%. It also depends on what sort of dissolved substances you your mains water contains.

N./

I use dow filmtec which are designed to be used at between 40 - 60 psi. As far as I always understood, temp in the 70's helps production and higher pressure can cause lower rejection rates or early membrane failure. I could be wrong though.

[Apistomaster]

I have the same experience as Jim, 340 ppm in and 5 to 10 PPM TDS out.
My unit is now about 6 years old running on the original membrane and the water pressure is about 45 psi. I would like a booster pump but I plan to include that when I upgrade to a high capacity RO Unit but I am not using enough RO water for a higher capacity unit to be justified. If I ever get a bunch of wild Red Spotted Greens I would buy the larger unit first.

[jimg]

I have the same experience as Jim, 340 ppm in and 5 to 10 PPM TDS out.
My unit is now about 6 years old running on the original membrane and the water pressure is about 45 psi. I would like a booster pump but I plan to include that when I upgrade to a high capacity RO Unit but I am not using enough RO water for a higher capacity unit to be justified. If I ever get a bunch of wild Red Spotted Greens I would buy the larger unit first.

I don't think you need a booster pump. When I get my wild reds from hans I may need more too!!

[illumnae]

I've got my TDS to ~60 and pH 5.7 now :) I'm soaking Ketapang leaves in the RO water barrel for 3-4 days prior to water change to get the water nice and brown and steeped in the "good stuff". The fish seem to be showing better colours and are less shy now.

Just need to drop the TDS by another ~20 and the pH by about 1 and I'm all set!