Heckle crosses?

[ockyra215]

Anyone have any pictures of heckles crossed with any domestics?I always loved the heckles and i remember seeing some crosses in magazines in the past just curious if anyones has any.

[Discus-n00b]

Eddie has one of the nicest I've seen on here. Pics of it can be found in this thread.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77424

[ockyra215]

Yeah i saw that one he is a gorgous fish anyone else have any like that?Come On LEts See Them!:D

[Eddie]

Eddie has one of the nicest I've seen on here. Pics of it can be found in this thread.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=77424

Thanks Matt!


Yeah i saw that one he is a gorgous fish anyone else have any like that?Come On LEts See Them!:D

Here is some that erikc used to have. They were VERY nice!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44461&d=1243589655


All the best

Eddie

[vss]

Here's sth special: http://www.the-discus.com/shop/shop/shop1/26/shop.htm

An albino-heckel cross done by Tong's farm.

I heard many time though that the 5th bar is not inherented well by inbreeding heckels or outcrossing heckels with other wilds or domestics...and some fish with strong 5th bar are from pairs that do not seem to have anything to do with heckels...seems the 5th bar is still a mystery nowadays...:confused:

-Xiaofei:)

[Eddie]

Here's sth special: http://www.the-discus.com/shop/shop/shop1/26/shop.htm

An albino-heckel cross done by Tong's farm.

I heard many time though that the 5th bar is not inherented well by inbreeding heckels or outcrossing heckels with other wilds or domestics...and some fish with strong 5th bar are from pairs that do not seem to have anything to do with heckels...seems the 5th bar is still a mystery nowadays...:confused:

-Xiaofei:)

How about these?

http://www.the-discus.com/shop/shop/shop1/05/shop.htm

[scottthomas]

Wow those are nice Eddie. I know they are not Heckles but did you see pic #13 on that site? I would like to own those as well.

[Eddie]

Wow those are nice Eddie. I know they are not Heckles but did you see pic #13 on that site? I would like to own those as well.


Definitely! Or #8 too

[Discus-n00b]

I really need to get me a/some heckle crosses :p Very fond of them.

[Eddie]

I really need to get me a/some heckle crosses :p Very fond of them.

Me too....hope to make more. :o

Eddie

[dalejordan]

Just posted these in the "sponsors" area. These are only 24 hrs landed after a ROUGH trip :-)

Enjoy

[ockyra215]

those japanese fish are awesome.

Eddie,
when you come back to the states how you going to get your fish back or is that not possible?


Anyone else have any cool Heckle Crosses

[ockyra215]

Dale those are awesome!

[Eddie]

those japanese fish are awesome.

Eddie,
when you come back to the states how you going to get your fish back or is that not possible?


Anyone else have any cool Heckle Crosses

I am never going back Dave.....:D No, I'll figure things out when the time comes. I am gonna be here for a few more years and plan on doing another 4 year tour here. ;)


All the best!

Eddie

[Chinaman]

here is leopard heckel X and che heckel X

[Eddie]

Oh man! These are my favorite fish!!! Did you create these Chinaman?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53248&d=1267257011

[Chinaman]

nope, got them when i was in germany... but sold them 6 months ago.... :(

[ockyra215]

Those are very nice I would love to find a pair of those?:D

[erikc]

Thanks Eddie for posting that pic. Here's a few more I found on my pc

http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/erikceckelm/?action=view&current=Manacapurusauvage.jpg

http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/erikceckelm/?action=view&current=Heckels.jpg

http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/erikceckelm/?action=view&current=HeckelVietnamienHybride.jpg

http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/erikceckelm/?action=view&current=Heckelhybrideetsauvage.jpg

[Eddie]

Very nice Eric! Looks like they were crossed with a RSG or Leopard. Thanks for adding the photos!


Take care,

Eddie

[ockyra215]

Thos are some very awesome looking crosses Love them!:D

[ockyra215]

And ofcourse the only guys with crosses live in Paris and Japan....:D:D

[darkknight87]

God, those are nice.

[erikc]

And ofcourse the only guys with crosses live in Paris and Japan....:D:D

Yup, Eddie and I are lucky there :p

Okay, on a more serious note, it was a one time offer I couldn't resist. They came from Vietnam and I've never seen them since for offer. I've seen smaller ones but none of them had the same potential.

[Eddie]

Yup, Eddie and I are lucky there :p

Okay, on a more serious note, it was a one time offer I couldn't resist. They came from Vietnam and I've never seen them since for offer. I've seen smaller ones but none of them had the same potential.

Interesting, I have been asked if mine is from Vietnam too. I guess they're called Vietnam Turqs (Heckel Cross) from what I was told. :o

Eddie

[Rod]

Heres one i kept years ago. About 5% in each spawn had the thicker central bar. Varying from ones like this to ones that were thicker on only a part of the bar. Some varieties of blue discus from the wild show these traits and according to Heiko Bleher have nothing to do with the heckel.....

[erikc]

Rod, nice picture, thanks for sharing. inetersting fact about only 5% of the spawn showing the central bar.

Its very true, you do see some brown or blues with thicker central bars and they come from regions of the Amazon where no Heckels are found. For example ther's a variety of the Rio Madera brown that has a strong resmblance to a Heckel but there are none in that area.

Maybe that those hybrid crosses we are seeing in this post have no relation whatsoever to hecekls, but just carry the gene with the thicker central bar ? Anyone want's to give theirs up for a full DNA analysis ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the only place where natural hybrids occur is in the lago Nhamunda. Some of the most stunning Heckels also come from there (damm, I'm going to have to update some pics of my heckels, I know, promises, promises ....).

Hmmm, lets see what the experts have to say ...

[Eddie]

Heres one i kept years ago. About 5% in each spawn had the thicker central bar. Varying from ones like this to ones that were thicker on only a part of the bar. Some varieties of blue discus from the wild show these traits and according to Heiko Bleher have nothing to do with the heckel.....

Nice fish Rod! I really like that fish. Thanks for adding the picture!

Eddie

[dalejordan]

Rod, nice picture, thanks for sharing. inetersting fact about only 5% of the spawn showing the central bar.

Its very true, you do see some brown or blues with thicker central bars and they come from regions of the Amazon where no Heckels are found. For example ther's a variety of the Rio Madera brown that has a strong resmblance to a Heckel but there are none in that area.

Maybe that those hybrid crosses we are seeing in this post have no relation whatsoever to hecekls, but just carry the gene with the thicker central bar ? Anyone want's to give theirs up for a full DNA analysis ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that the only place where natural hybrids occur is in the lago Nhamunda. Some of the most stunning Heckels also come from there (damm, I'm going to have to update some pics of my heckels, I know, promises, promises ....).

Hmmm, lets see what the experts have to say ...


Hi Erik,

Just like in my article, most of the heckle crosses we find in the wild are divergent zones where populations of lets say ''blues" meet populations of "heckles". The Madeira ( mostly blue Discus) does meets the Canuma ( mostly heckle ) hence the crosses that I JUST posted on this thread. As discussed in my article, the Abacaxis ( mostly Heckle ) meets the Marie Marie ( mostly blue ) and the Nhumnda is the exact same thing.

The big problem we find with these crosses is that the heckle bar will quickly disappear , usually by F3 if the cross was originally F1. Schmidt Focke had one of the most incredible crosses as his "strain#4 or Discuscross" ( as seen in this picture ) I was lucky to get the offspring of this pair, but only about 10% had the bar and then nothing in the next generation. This is why we do not see any true heckle cross "strains" per say :-)

The best news is that of the Lago Solomon. As Rod said, there are fish that have this "5th" bar and it has nothing to do with heckles....lago Solomon is one of them !! Just until recently I never knew this fish existed until I had a long discussion with Oliver Lucanus of Below water. He assured me that the fish in this illusive area have a fixed "5th" bar and it will be retained in successive offspring. I can assure you the Japanese are aware of this as we see these fish being sold for a fortune on the Japanese market. Eddie is also very lucky as his fish are of a Solomon Red turquoise cross. Who knows.....this may be the first 'true' strain that would retain the fifth bar :-)

[erikc]

Hi Dale,

thanks for the for the information and your input into this forum,

I greatly admire people like you who go to the amazon to collect these amazing fish and I am always an avid reader of "experienced info", it is realy so hard to find in the discus world. Your input is definetely priceless and I am gratefull for your willingness to share this knowledge.

I must admit that I have always been fascinated by any discus with a "fith" bar. For some strange reason it has always appealed to me more than the other discus types, that's why I have always kept Heckels when I have a fish tank.

This is good news indeed for teh Lago Solomons. My crosses did not retain only their "fith" bar, but from what you have advanced, it makes sense. It's true that Eddie's Salomon crosses are full of potential, all the more exciting with what you have just said.

Looking forward to seeing the fish that you will produce (you wouldn't ship to France by any chance ?), thanks again.

[blkrob]

The you for all the information and pictures! I feel they are the most beautiful of all the discus strains. So, now I need a small fortune and to move to asia.

I hope you guys will be offering off spring soon.

Robert

[dalejordan]

The you for all the information and pictures! I feel they are the most beautiful of all the discus strains. So, now I need a small fortune and to move to asia.

I hope you guys will be offering off spring soon.

Robert

Shouldnt have to move my friend. I managed to get the Lago Solomon fish and a few other members on the forum have as well. So if Eddie cant supply you, myself or others will have young VERY SOON !!!

[dalejordan]

Hi Dale,

thanks for the for the information and your input into this forum,

I greatly admire people like you who go to the amazon to collect these amazing fish and I am always an avid reader of "experienced info", it is realy so hard to find in the discus world. Your input is definetely priceless and I am gratefull for your willingness to share this knowledge.

I must admit that I have always been fascinated by any discus with a "fith" bar. For some strange reason it has always appealed to me more than the other discus types, that's why I have always kept Heckels when I have a fish tank.

This is good news indeed for teh Lago Solomons. My crosses did not retain only their "fith" bar, but from what you have advanced, it makes sense. It's true that Eddie's Salomon crosses are full of potential, all the more exciting with what you have just said.

Looking forward to seeing the fish that you will produce (you wouldn't ship to France by any chance ?), thanks again.

Thank you Erik for your kind words !! I will be producing what I can with the Crosses and Solomon fish I have.....I will keep you posted !!

I will extend an open invitation to offer "help and advice" to ANYONE on the forum that has questions about Discus !! No question is too small or insignificant....don't be embarrassed to ask !!!

[dalejordan]

Thank you Erik for your kind words !! I will be producing what I can with the Crosses and Solomon fish I have.....I will keep you posted !!

I will extend an open invitation to offer "help and advice" to ANYONE on the forum that has questions about Discus !! No question is too small or insignificant....don't be embarrassed to ask !!!

Sorry Erik...YES I WILL SHIP to France :-)

[ockyra215]

I have only been in to this site for a little bit but I am amazed at the comrodery ( I know I spelled it wrong) that everyone has.My hats are off to all of you.I have always loved the heckle I love the bar.I will say that I would to some of those fry when you might have some available Dale.

[erikc]

Sorry Erik...YES I WILL SHIP to France :-)

Yo smackdown ... as they say in your neck of the woods ! Thanks Dale. Looking forward to your updates :D

[darkknight87]

Okay. I have a dumb question.
I was having a debate with my bio teacher yesterday, because she said that based on the definition, two differant species can not yeild fertile offspring.
Heckles are seperate species, so can the crosses have fertile offspring or not?

I think the whole definition of species is way off..there are many animals that are so similar I wouldn't even consider seperating them out..yet most dog breeds are so distinctively differant but are not considered seperate? and the rule of thumb is suppose to be that differant species can not succesfully interbreed?
So where does that leave this heckle crosses and other Hybrids that I see?

[Rod]

Not a dumb question, in fact i think a very interesting question. Many of our discus are hybrids and have great fertility, but not all. My experience with green x blue eventually led to low fertility of the males after a few generations, though the females still have great fertility. Many of our best strains like leopard and leopard snakeskin (also blue x green) are perfectly fertile after many generations.
A good example to show your bio teacher would be the various Xiphophorus spp, most aquarium strains are hybrids between X. heleri and X. maculata and they have been bred for countless generations. And there are many other examples which disproves this theory.
What this all means i am not sure, perhaps our discus are mere subspecies and the taxonomists are just splitting hairs.....:D

[plecocicho]

What is your teacher refering too is so called biological definition of the species. It says that a prime driving force for the speciation is sexual selection by females. Females only choose mates, that show specific visual, pheromonic and behavior traits, so in nature females can find appropriate males, even tho they look the same to us. Hybridization is so very rare and complex mehanisms prevent viable or fertile hybrids.
But there can be excaptions to this rule. Some lizard species and poecilla formosa have only females and just the act of copulation (by the two femalesby first or copulation with the different species by later) triggers the embryo development, which is amazing. There are more hybrids in our aquarium because spatial, timing or different circumstances alow hybridization, espacially with closelly related species, like molliies, certain cihlids, catfish. The abonimable hybridization of totally different species as Asians do with so called flowerhorn is totaly different matter.
As discus go, most hybrids are from different local populations of the sam e species, S.haraldi, the blue/brown discus. Green discus have been used for hybridization also, but only in the first stages. All discus species are young species, eaning, that they formed only recentely (in geological times, of course). Natural hybridization occours only between heckels and haraldi in few places and only ocasionaly.Those hybridsare almost every time much smaller than the parents. As their fertility goes, they are less fertile than the parents species.

[ockyra215]

Well Grizzly bears have traveled way far North and breed with Polar Bears.Not that fish in the wild are traveling but with the tides and currents who can tell.Just to put a laymans term on it ha ha ha:D

[Eddie]

What is your teacher refering too is so called biological definition of the species. It says that a prime driving force for the speciation is sexual selection by females. Females only choose mates, that show specific visual, pheromonic and behavior traits, so in nature females can find appropriate males, even tho they look the same to us. Hybridization is so very rare and complex mehanisms prevent viable or fertile hybrids.
But there can be excaptions to this rule. Some lizard species and poecilla formosa have only females and just the act of copulation (by the two femalesby first or copulation with the different species by later) triggers the embryo development, which is amazing. There are more hybrids in our aquarium because spatial, timing or different circumstances alow hybridization, espacially with closelly related species, like molliies, certain cihlids, catfish. The abonimable hybridization of totally different species as Asians do with so called flowerhorn is totaly different matter.
As discus go, most hybrids are from different local populations of the sam e species, S.haraldi, the blue/brown discus. Green discus have been used for hybridization also, but only in the first stages. All discus species are young species, eaning, that they formed only recentely (in geological times, of course). Natural hybridization occours only between heckels and haraldi in few places and only ocasionaly.Those hybridsare almost every time much smaller than the parents. As their fertility goes, they are less fertile than the parents species.

Interesting read Pleco, great information!

Take care,

Eddie

[darkknight87]

Yep, thats the definition he gave us,.
I just didn't understand, because ive seen several hybrids, including Turtle Hybrids..crosses between Red Ear and Yellow Bellied sliders which are differant species..and then she talked about how there are Less Cichlid species then there used to be, because the females are less selective now and breed with other species.
What I dont understand, is if the definition of a species is that it doesn't breed with other species, then how can the cichlids do this.

[plecocicho]

If otherwise clear water habitats get permenentelly murky due to human activities (pollution, clearing og gallerian forests,..), then species sex recognition cues, which are more or less visual, are useless and hybridization becomes more common. Examples for this are hybrids between victorian cichlids and between mexican molli speices.

[Jhhnn]

Breeding heckels is apparently difficult, at best. From what I can tell, most of the crosses occur with male heckels & female haraldi.

I'm surprised that we haven't seen line-breeding to fix heckel characteristics into a given strain. First a cross, then a father- daughter pairing, then father to granddaughter...

My experience here is non-existent, but I'm sure that's how many varieties of domestic animals have been bred, and discus are apparently fertile for many years, which would allow for that... There would probably be a large % of culls, particularly at first...

Anybody know about those kinds of efforts?

[vss]

I heard there is some ongoing research on the inheritance of the heckel bar being conducted in Brazil right now. The preliminary result shows that the inheritance of the heckel bar does not only rely on the genetics of the parents, but also on the breeding environment. It's sth hard to find explantion based on the classic genetic laws. It's not the final conclusion yet.

-Xiaofei :)

[vss]

Breeding heckels is apparently difficult, at best. From what I can tell, most of the crosses occur with male heckels & female haraldi.

I'm surprised that we haven't seen line-breeding to fix heckel characteristics into a given strain. First a cross, then a father- daughter pairing, then father to granddaughter...

My experience here is non-existent, but I'm sure that's how many varieties of domestic animals have been bred, and discus are apparently fertile for many years, which would allow for that... There would probably be a large % of culls, particularly at first...

Anybody know about those kinds of efforts?

I think there have been a lot of efforts put in, but still no substantial sucess by far. The inheritance of the heckel traits is still a mystery. Even if the cross can be done and the fry can survive, usually the heckel traits will be weakened or disappear within a couple of generations no matter by linebreeding or outcrossing. I heard Tong's farm in Penang used to have a relatively stable line of heckel cross, but have not seen much being produced recently...

-Xiaofei :)

[Eddie]

These ones are UNREAL!! One of the best fish I have ever seen! Scroll down and click on the thumbnails for the heckels!

http://www.famousdiscusbreeders.com/index.php?mode=guest&task=shw_pgallery&id=64

[Alok]

Very nice indeed Eddie! :)

[poddan]

I dont own this one anymore , but he were an eyecatcher in my tanks before. Have some others F1 from Heckel x Red Cover, but to young to see if there will be a strong fifth bar

http://diskusforum.se/gallery/pic.php?mode=med&pic_id=571

[Eddie]

Thats a beauty! Be nice to see how those crosses are coming in the next few months! I'm sure the 5th bar will be shown in some and if not, definitely in F2. Keep us posted Poddan!

All the best,

Eddie

[ockyra215]

definetly awesome pics eddie where did you find that link

[Eddie]

definetly awesome pics eddie where did you find that link

Famous Discus Breeders Malaysia! ;)

http://www.famousdiscusbreeders.com/index.php?mode=guest&task=shw_main&id=2

[ockyra215]

Wonder if any of our discus importing heroes such as Kenny might be able to get some of these beautys!!!Ill have to ask.:p

[dizkuz]

Poddan! Dont forget that i will have some of the F1 RC-Heckels my friend :D
I remember the Heckelcross you put up here, lovely one in IRL :angel:
Brgd D

[Eddie]

Poddan! Dont forget that i will have some of the F1 RC-Heckels my friend :D
I remember the Heckelcross you put up here, lovely one in IRL :angel:
Brgd D

Me too, me too! I want some Poddan! ;)

[ockyra215]

Send some to the States Ill take some!

[MGKelly]

The more i look at these Heckel discus the more I like them.
Haven't seen any available for sale though.

Joe

[Eddie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQQTvclMWI4&feature=related

[DiscusKev]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQQTvclMWI4&feature=related

Impressive, thanks for sharing Eddie :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmhyy2l6Xo&feature=related

Same batch of heckel cross discus fish, but in a slide-show video :D

Kevin

[Ed13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQQTvclMWI4&feature=related
WOW!!

[ockyra215]

Eddie do you ever sleep!That was a great video.It looks like they were from sunrise tropicals?

[mckchu]

Just got these heckel cross - very small, around 3". These are from Malaysia...

[Eddie]

Very nice Heckel Crosses!

Take care,

Eddie

[mckchu]

Very nice Heckel Crosses!

Take care,

Eddie

Hi Eddie - these are actually nth generation bred fish, and not really a recent cross with heckel. From what I learnt from the breeder - the fifth bar from actual heckel cross appear on less than 10% of the off spring! Only after generations of selective breeding did they get this fifth bar so prominent!

Also - as my own observation from wild imports ... Heckels and natural heckel cross shows the fifth bar that is narrowing on the dorsal & anal fin area but significantly wider in the middle. While the Ica-type red/browns that shows a fifth (sometimes even sixth) bar that are almost uniform width from top to bottom. I think they has been many discussions on this bar topic - but it does look like it's very hard to inherit the true fifth "heckel" bar (bar that shows different width from top to bottom) from domestic breeding!

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie - these are actually nth generation bred fish, and not really a recent cross with heckel. From what I learnt from the breeder - the fifth bar from actual heckel cross appear on less than 10% of the off spring! Only after generations of selective breeding did they get this fifth bar so prominent!

Also - as my own observation from wild imports ... Heckels and natural heckel cross shows the fifth bar that is narrowing on the dorsal & anal fin area but significantly wider in the middle. While the Ica-type red/browns that shows a fifth (sometimes even sixth) bar that are almost uniform width from top to bottom. I think they has been many discussions on this bar topic - but it does look like it's very hard to inherit the true fifth "heckel" bar (bar that shows different width from top to bottom) from domestic breeding!


Yeah, I hear you. I think my Heckel Cross male is one of Wayne's Checkerboard Heckels. The bar is insanely uniform, like someone painted it on! :D LOL

[mckchu]

Yeah, I hear you. I think my Heckel Cross male is one of Wayne's Checkerboard Heckels. The bar is insanely uniform, like someone painted it on! :D LOL

Here is a pair I got recently ... hope I can get them to spawn!

[Eddie]

Here is a pair I got recently ... hope I can get them to spawn!


Me too! They are gorgeous, superb! ;)

[Discus-n00b]

Here is a pair I got recently ... hope I can get them to spawn!

Those are really nice! I love heckle crosses.

[Ed13]

Here is a pair I got recently ... hope I can get them to spawn!
I really like those!! Most Heckel crosses I've seen so far favor the blue coloration, but these favor red.

[Eddie]

Some more pics. These belong to Watanabe from T-Aqua. I would love to have them.

http://t-aquarium.com/shop/image_view.html?image=../shopimages/taqua/047000000013.jpg

[vera]

Some more pics. These belong to Watanabe from T-Aqua. I would love to have them.

http://t-aquarium.com/shop/image_view.html?image=../shopimages/taqua/047000000013.jpg

WOW !! that fish is insane beauty ! u gonna get it Eddie ?

[Eddie]

WOW !! that fish is insane beauty ! u gonna get it Eddie ?

No... not at this time, although I would love to. I have to get things sorted out on the home front before I invest in any more fishes. :o But I do foresee the future to be quite bright and filled with many many discus. ;)

Eddie

[vera]

No... not at this time, although I would love to. I have to get things sorted out on the home front before I invest in any more fishes. :o But I do foresee the future to be quite bright and filled with many many discus. ;)

Eddie

Nice !! i wish to have a BIG group of these in my new aquarium in my bright future LOL

[Eddie]

Nice !! i wish to have a BIG group of these in my new aquarium in my bright future LOL


Sounds like we have the same goals. ;)

[vera]

Sounds like we have the same goals. ;)

LOL , im in to gorgeous fish , now all we need is a plan how to put hands on these , must cost an arm and leg :)

[Eddie]

LOL , im in to gorgeous fish , now all we need is a plan how to put hands on these , must cost an arm and leg :)


Yeah, a bit pricey actually. 500+ USD

[sfdiscus]

Just posted these in the "sponsors" area. These are only 24 hrs landed after a ROUGH trip :-)

Enjoy

Hi Dale - is Pic 2 a wild Heckel cross? Where did you get it from? thx