PDA

View Full Version : Trouble in Paradise



wgtaylor
02-25-2010, 04:44 PM
Here is a breakdown on the problem I am having. :(
Any thoughts or course of action would be greatly appreciated.

Started to see the tank of contest discus slowly eating less food than usual about 8 to 10 weeks ago.
There were no obvious signs of trouble so I assumed it might be Hexamita or Spironucleus and treated with Metronidazole.
Used Metronidazole powder, following directions on jar. Dosed at 5mg/L once per day for 5 to 7 days, except I read on the internet by dosing for 10 days will completely eradicate Spironucles so treated for 10 days.
No sign of improvement.
Two days ago I noticed one discus with a clear tubular feces so I pulled some out and put under the microscope.
There were what appeared to be many nematode eggs, about 60 to 70 in one half inch of the clear gel like feces, sorry no picture of feces, see below for eggs.
This is what I plan to do next unless someone has another idea that might be a better solution.
I have Vermisol which contains 7.5 grams Levamisol powder. Recommended dose at 2.5 ppm for 24 hours followed by large water change and retreat in one week.
The University of Florida recommends Levamisol in food to be fed once per week for three weeks so I will try three treatments at one week intervals. Want to get rid of this stuff.
Here is a couple poor pictures I took of what I believe are the nematode eggs. Please let me know if I'm mistaken as I have never seen this before.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/nematodeegg1.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/nematodeegg2.jpg

No new fish added to the contest tank.
water, 65ms, ph 6.5, 85 deg F
80% daily water changes, thoroughly wiping tank and siphoning bottom before feeding.
Slowly eating less food over time.
Poo light brown and falls apart quickly.
Their weight is ok, growth could be better.
No other signs of problems but albino's don't turn dark.
No aggression between tankmates.

I have gotten all my discus before from limited sources and have experienced very little fish diseases.
So if there are experienced discus keepers that have a prophylactic treatment regime to circumvent most common problems with diseases please feel free to post here or pm or e-mail me of your experiences.
I feel like a caretaker of these contest discus and don't want to do anything to muck things up.
Thanks :)
Bill

brewmaster15
02-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Hi Bill,
I think treating them for worms is the way to go here, but on that vermisol... I haven't tried feeding it...I don't think there would be an issue with the carrier in it...still I just can't say for sure..

I would dose the tank water initially since you know its safe... then scope the feces after a day or two and see if theres worm eggs still.. If there aren't that would give us alot of info and if there are...well that says alot too.

Conversely, since they are eating, you could feed them a panacur(fenbenazole) based food... There are many commercial sources for flakes medicated with this at the proper concentration.

hth,
al

wgtaylor
02-25-2010, 05:09 PM
Ya, thanks Al, I didn't make it clear, planned to treat the water with the vermisol. Will check again for eggs and maybe retreat three times. In the meantime I will order something with fenbenazole in case the vermisol doesn't do the trick.
Will keep post updated,
Thanks again !

Eddie
02-26-2010, 08:04 AM
Bill, sorry to hear about the worms. I use vermasol at 380 mg/ 10 gallons of water. Works like a charm but it can leave a nasty residue (slime) in the tank and cause the tank water to go a bit cloudy. A couple of good water changes and several complete wipe downs will get rid of all the slime build up.


Let us know

Eddie

wgtaylor
02-26-2010, 09:12 AM
Thanks Eddie,
Got the tank dosed last night. Will do a big water change and scrub down tonight then scope for eggs. Hope this levamisol takes care of these worms. Just curious, do you weigh the powder right out of the Vermisol 100g container to dose the tank?
Thanks for the info buddy, will let ya know how it goes.

Eddie
02-26-2010, 09:14 AM
Thanks Eddie,
Got the tank dosed last night. Will do a big water change and scrub down tonight then scope for eggs. Hope this levamisol takes care of these worms. Just curious, do you weigh the powder right out of the Vermisol 100g container to dose the tank?
Thanks for the info buddy, will let ya know how it goes.

Yup, I scoop out a small bit at a time until I get the amount I need. I use a small digital pocket scale that measures in milligrams.

Eddie

wgtaylor
02-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Looks like the levamisol worked. I used the dosage Al had posted 2.5 mls /20 gals of the stock solution of levamisol Thursday.
Yesterday discus had expelled many worms which covered the intake of the hob filter.
I did another large water change this morning and scrubbed everything down. Scoped the remnants on the intake of the hob filter
and discus feces. Seen adult worms on the intake and quite a few immature worms in the feces, all dead I assume, nothing moving anyway.

The discus tolerated the treatment with no visible signs of stress. Bio filter appears ok.
By what the eggs looked like and the dead immature worms I saw in the feces I believe them to be capillaria.
Looked like figure 10 in referenced document,
http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Nematode%20(roundworm)%20Infections%20in%20Fish.pd f

I'm pretty sure the levamisol killed all the worms but not eggs that may be lurking in the tank and filters.
I plan to retreat with levamisol at the same strength in one week to kill new hatched larvae.
The first pic of the clear gel feces where I saw the capillaria eggs.
The second pic how they looked this morning after water change.
As of now thier appetite has not recovered.
Any suggestions on additional treatment is welcome.
Thanks, Al and Eddie :)
Bill

Eddie
02-27-2010, 08:46 PM
Sounds promising Bill, the pictures of the gel poo are great for reference. So white gel poo can be indicative of nematode infections. This has been in my limited experience also. Bet the beauty's feel much better and I am sure you'll be getting more growth on them. ;)


Take care my friend and thanks for providing the results!


Eddie

wgtaylor
02-28-2010, 12:29 AM
Sounds promising Bill, the pictures of the gel poo are great for reference. So white gel poo can be indicative of nematode infections. This has been in my limited experience also. Bet the beauty's feel much better and I am sure you'll be getting more growth on them. ;)


Take care my friend and thanks for providing the results!


Eddie

Thanks Eddie,
Ya, I originally scoped the gel poo and found all the capillaria eggs shown in the original pictures and were quite visible at low resolution. Then zoomed in for ID.
The capillaria worms in the normal poo where harder to find mainly because they are very transparent and I had to turn the light level of the scope nearly off before I could see them.
I missed them when I checked before. :o
Anyway, I'll treat them again in a week and keep scoping until I'm sure this tank is clean. Thanks for your help buddy. :)
Bill

Disgirl
02-28-2010, 10:12 AM
Bill, glad to hear they are doing better now. Can you or Eddie tell us how discus get Capillaria worms? Since your contest fish are all by themselves, did they have them from "fryhood" or do all discus have them in small numbers that can increase at times? Just wondering...
Barb

sailboat
02-28-2010, 11:10 AM
Bill, where can you buy "Levamisol " in case I ever need it.
Thanks

wgtaylor
02-28-2010, 04:22 PM
Bill, glad to hear they are doing better now. Can you or Eddie tell us how discus get Capillaria worms? Since your contest fish are all by themselves, did they have them from "fryhood" or do all discus have them in small numbers that can increase at times? Just wondering...
Barb

Thanks Barb,
They do seem better, have two that haven't recovered their appetite yet but sure they all will be fine. :)
First I want you to know I have lead a sheltered life. I had a small group of discus keeper friends that pretty much ran parasite free hatcheries so I don't have much experience with nematodes other than what I've read. So this is my newbie opinion.
I don't believe all discus have capillaria but if they do they will have some effect. I don't think discus can just maintain a small number of capillaria but I think some discus are able to do better with less nutrients.
The article I linked from the University of Florida has some really good info about capillaria. From what I understand from that article, capillaria can be present in juvenile discus and will reproduce and spread directly from discus to discus without needing another host to reproduce.
They don't appear to do any physical damage but rob nutrients causing slower growth and possibly effecting discus reproduction. If one discus in the tank has capillaria than they all will. They reproduce as easily as flukes.
I've have discus from multiple sources so can't tell you with absolute certainly where the capillaria came from but they are fairly easy to get rid of.
I've read about capillaria for years in fish magazines and mad at myself that I hadn't caught them earlier. :(

Oh, btw, Eddie
The clear feces was just that, crystal clear under the scope. Nothing in it but eggs, lots of them. It was like multiple adult female capillaria smushed together. In the article from the University of Florida, figure 10 shows a female capillaria with eggs in-line along the length of the worm.
The clear feces I scoped was larger in diameter than a single capillaria so the eggs were able to be randomly spaced, and enough room for about a dozen eggs to fit side by side.


Bill, where can you buy "Levamisol " in case I ever need it.
Thanks

This is the link I was given to order, says it's still in stock, http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/586.html
And this is the dosage posted in the Disease Section by Al (brewmaster15) and seems to be working. (Thanks Al) :):)

I took the 100 gram bottle from Foys Pigeon Supplies and added 100 mls of water to it.
thats 7.5 grams of levamisole then in 100 mls which is the same as 7500mg/100 mls or 75mg per 1ml.

from that stock I used 2.5 mls /20 gals tank water... Thats the same as 187.5 mg/20 gals..
The old levamisole oblets were dosed at 184 mgs/ 20 gals so the dose should be comparable.

If they are eating well I would do as Al suggested earlier, use a comercial panacur(fenbenazole) based food, as Levamisol may not be available forever.

Disgirl
02-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the info. Bill. I learned a lot from it. I hope your discus continue to do better and eat well, they are so beautiful! It shows, the good care you have given them!
Barb:)

wgtaylor
02-28-2010, 06:25 PM
You are welcome Barb. Hope it wasn't too long winded but I hate getting only partial information. I hope there are things we all can learn from these contests. I learn everyday.
Thanks and take care :)
Bill

calihawker
03-03-2010, 12:06 PM
Sorry to hear about the problems Bill but all the same great info for all of us to learn by. Glad it's cleared up for ya.

wgtaylor
03-03-2010, 01:10 PM
Sorry to hear about the problems Bill but all the same great info for all of us to learn by. Glad it's cleared up for ya.

Thanks Steve
I remember capillaria being very common with discus and sure others will run into this, will do another treatment of levamisol tomorrow.
OK buddy, this may have been a setback but we will be coming back strong....ha ha :D:D
Good to hear from you, take care.

wgtaylor
03-05-2010, 01:42 PM
Re-dosed the tank with levamisol yesterday to kill any new hatched capillaria. Not sure if levamisol actually kills nematode eggs so re-treated to be safe. The discus tolerate the 24 hour treatment very well and doesn't effect the bio filter so it was an easy choice.
It is getting a little tedious, scoping poo everyday but all the discus look clean except one. The original one with the clear gel poo was still passing this clear gel poo and is loaded with eggs. I don't believe that one is eating anything yet. The rest are eating, including Whitey, the smallest. The levamisol appears to be working, so will continue another week.

Mixing the 100 gram bottle of Vermisol with 100 ml of distilled water as Al suggested makes re-dosing very easy. I just take a syringe pull out 10 cc from the stock solution for the 80 gallon tank. Too easy. The 100 gram bottle should treat about 800 gallons so I even treated the tank next to the contest discus just as a precaution even though they looked fine.
I haven't prophylactically treated discus in the past and have been very fortunate not running into problems but I I learned a valuable lesson here. I've since read this post #1 by Al in the disease section and plan to do additional treatments after the levamisol. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=21044
Following that post would have prevented this problem. I have been up close watching this tank of albino's and have become really attached to these guys. They seem to have become my problem children and motivated me to research more. They will pull through this and I will be thrilled with them for sure. :)

Because the one discus is passing more clear gel I considered using a stronger dose and thought of Eddie, drastic problems require drastic measures.
Hey Eddie, if you read this check my math on this. If you use 1262 mg vermasol powder per 10 gallon that would equal the stock solution that Al recommended and the 100g bottle would treat about 800 gallons.
This is a lot stronger dosage than you used. I haven't experienced the cloudy water and seems gentle on the discus. I also have a mg scale and would do it this way if I had to treat one time, one tank. Hope it works as well for you buddy. :)

The vermasol powder has 7.5 grams of levamisol in 100 grams of powder, that's 7.5 percent medicine.
13.34 mg vermasol powder x .075 = 1 mg/l (1 ppm) of levamisol
13.34 x 37.9 liters = 505 mg vermisol powder = 1 mg/l in 10 gal
505 mg x 2.5 ppm = 1262 mg vermasol powder = 2.5 mg/l in 10 gal

Eddie
03-05-2010, 07:32 PM
Bill,

I use 38 mg/per gallon = 380 mg/per 10 gallons

2 treatments 3weeks apart. Haven't seen anymore eggs but I may have been quick to catch them. I do random scoping of poos, feel like the great poo inspector! LOL



Eddie

wgtaylor
03-05-2010, 09:49 PM
Bill,

I use 38 mg/per gallon = 380 mg/per 10 gallons

2 treatments 3weeks apart. Haven't seen anymore eggs but I may have been quick to catch them. I do random scoping of poos, feel like the great poo inspector! LOL



Eddie

Hey thanks Eddie
If you used 380 mg powder that's 380 x .075 = 28.8 mg of levamisole med.
10 gal equal 37.9 liters. That would give you 28.8mg levamisole / 37.9 liters = .76 mg/l (.76 ppm).
Im glad that worked for you, that makes me feel a bit more comfortable in getting rid of this capillaria. I can appreciate the great poo inspector description, not fun but have to do it. :o
The one that had the clear poo is starting to show interest in food again.
Thanks for the help buddy :)

Chester
03-07-2010, 08:19 PM
Bill,

Sent you an email with the info you requested.

Good luck.

Cheers

Chester :D

wgtaylor
03-08-2010, 11:20 AM
Thanks Chester

Very kind of you to share. :)

05 LL Stang
03-08-2010, 12:50 PM
http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/Update/Nematode%20(roundworm)%20Infections%20in%20Fish.pd f


Bill,
I have been looking for a doc like this, thank you for sharing!!!!
Jeff

TankWatcher
03-08-2010, 10:57 PM
Hi Bill

Is everyone recovered as yet, even the clear pooper? I hope so.

Very beautiful fish. A different look to some of the other contestant's.

wgtaylor
03-09-2010, 02:06 AM
Hi Bill

Is everyone recovered as yet, even the clear pooper? I hope so.

Very beautiful fish. A different look to some of the other contestant's.
Hi Robyn,
Thanks for asking, they are slowly coming around and regaining appetite. All their fins are erect and look good. I have a second discus passing dead worms loaded with eggs tonight.
This poo looks different and is almost an opaque white but with the same capillaria eggs. The levamisol seems to be working and will treat at least one more time. This will be the third treatment at one week intervals. They seem to easily pass the worms however I added epsom salts, one teaspoon per ten gallons when I change water to remove the levamisol, just to be sure. Strange, they all have seemed to be affected differently, some show very little signs at all. Fortunately this seems to be the only tank that has capillaria and been careful to keep it from spreading.
By the way they are acting I'm sure they will recover completely. It's taking some time but is sure worth the effort. Getting pretty attached to these guys. :):)




Bill,
I have been looking for a doc like this, thank you for sharing!!!!
Jeff
Thanks Jeff, glad it was of help.

TankWatcher
03-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Good to hear things are improving. Someone, might have been Paul (not sure) once told me that the higher discus temps speed up the life cycle of the parasites. So he recommended to me that a shorter interval might be better between treatments. You are right that the levamisol doesn't kill the eggs, so you have to try to get them asap after hatching, otherwise the cycle repeats itself.

wgtaylor
03-09-2010, 11:36 PM
Good to hear things are improving. Someone, might have been Paul (not sure) once told me that the higher discus temps speed up the life cycle of the parasites. So he recommended to me that a shorter interval might be better between treatments. You are right that the levamisol doesn't kill the eggs, so you have to try to get them asap after hatching, otherwise the cycle repeats itself.

You bet, warmer temperature can accelerate capillaria hatching cycle. The last dose has to be done after all the eggs have hatched but before the capillaria become mature adults. I found info on the web that there are multiple species of capillaria and each have different length life cycles. I haven't been able to find any definitive info to go by. 3 weeks between treatments might work but then need to double check with a microscope.
I gave mine one extra treatment just to get the earlier hatching nutrient robbing little buggers out of their gut. Might have helped them by an extra week but I know it helped me. :D

wgtaylor
03-14-2010, 05:30 PM
Final Update On Trouble In Paradise
Success
It's been raining every day for almost two weeks, today the sun came out, life is good. :)
First I would like to thank Al brewmaster. A while back Al let me know where I could locate levamisol and the dosing instructions for my wild discus. When this problem arose with the contest discus I was fortunate to have the levamisol on hand. So, thanks Al. :)
I had been struggling with their lack of appetite for a while until I finally diagnosed the problem with capillaria and treated with levamosol.
The levamisol worked well because it could be dosed in the water and didn't have to be fed. My contest discus appetites had become worse over time and feeding worm medicine would not have worked as well and maybe not at all with at least one or two.
At times I thought about increasing the dose or trying other things but stayed with treating them at 2.5ppm once a week for three treatments. Found this dosing recommendation only one place on the web, seems to have worked well.
I added epsom salt, one teaspoon per 10 gal for four hours and a huge water change to clean them out before worming. Twenty four hours later another large water change and clean tank good and epsom salt for the day.
Today all the contest discus are right up front and top of the tank begging for food again. Sure is a nice sight to see.

I don't use a prefilter and when I turned the filter off there was lots of junk that would flow out of the strainer. Great place to collect to check under the microscope.
Today absolutely nothing is collecting in the filter strainer, it stays clean and the bottom of the tank is staying clean. Not a particle of food lasts.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw1.jpg

Now whenever I walk by they all are up top, up front, right under the light.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw2.jpg

I think they all will be getting more growth again.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw3.jpg

Their color has picked back up again.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw4.jpg

and the red iris has improved in all of them.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw5.jpg

Whitey is not white anymore and has the biggest appetite of all.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Contest%20Second%20Half/aw6.jpg

Next week I'll get back to the normal updates. :)

Bill

kaceyo
03-14-2010, 05:38 PM
That's great Bill. They sure don't look like they've been sick recently.

wgtaylor
03-14-2010, 06:12 PM
That's great Bill. They sure don't look like they've been sick recently.

Thanks Kacey
They never looked really bad mainly poor appetites and getting worse and lack of activity. There has been a remarkable turn around.

Chad Hughes
03-14-2010, 06:23 PM
Bill,

Fantasitc recovery thread here my friend! I'm glad to hear that everything is about back to normal. You've taken fantastic care of these guys and gals!

Best wishes!

wgtaylor
03-14-2010, 06:40 PM
Thanks for the kind words buddy. :)
It's good to see their pale colors starting to come back.

David Rose
03-14-2010, 06:47 PM
So glad everything is looking up and getting back on track! I've sitting on the sidelines following your thread for awhile now and almost feel like I can breath again :p Great job with all your efforts!

wgtaylor
03-14-2010, 06:54 PM
So glad everything is looking up and getting back on track! I've sitting on the sidelines following your thread for awhile now and almost feel like I can breath again :p Great job with all your efforts!
Hey thanks David
It was a pita for a while not sure what was wrong with these guys and not wanting to do something wrong. Still feel like I'm caring for discus that belong to Simply Discus and didn't want to muck things up. It does feel good to breath again.:D

2075turner
03-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Glad to see that things have cleared up for them. Great job taking care of them they are all geogous!:)

Eddie
03-14-2010, 09:01 PM
Thats great to hear Bill! They look lovely my friend, pure beauty's.


All the best,

Eddie

joanr
03-14-2010, 09:29 PM
From what I've read the Levamisole has other benefits besides killing the worms. It actually stimulates the immune system and was used for certain types of cancer treatment at one time. The fish recover quickly from the dose and it's easy on the bio. Good stuff and glad to see the results you got. I did have one problem with the solution I made and that was probably because I didn't use the right water, just the water being cycled through the Frig Pure filter. It was in the frig for a few weeks and when I went to do the second dose the powder had sort of hardened on the bottom of the bottle with the water floating on top. I had to add a little more water and shake it up real good again. I like using this better than the flake 'cause I have one fish that won't eat flake at all.

wgtaylor
03-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Glad to see that things have cleared up for them. Great job taking care of them they are all geogous!:)
Thank you Evelyn,
I feel good when they feel good. Been watching your beauties grow out awesome. :)


Thats great to hear Bill! They look lovely my friend, pure beauty's.


All the best,

Eddie
Thanks Eddie
Never had Albino's before, odd to me they don't turn dark, they get pale, even the iris of their eyes. They are becoming a favorite for sure.
Take care buddy :)


From what I've read the Levamisole has other benefits besides killing the worms. It actually stimulates the immune system and was used for certain types of cancer treatment at one time. The fish recover quickly from the dose and it's easy on the bio. Good stuff and glad to see the results you got. I did have one problem with the solution I made and that was probably because I didn't use the right water, just the water being cycled through the Frig Pure filter. It was in the frig for a few weeks and when I went to do the second dose the powder had sort of hardened on the bottom of the bottle with the water floating on top. I had to add a little more water and shake it up real good again. I like using this better than the flake 'cause I have one fish that won't eat flake at all.
Hi Joan,
Seen the same thing as you. I mixed two batches and stored in a Mason jar in the fridge. First batch with distilled water, second with RO water and both settled out at the bottom of the jar.
Mine didn't harden, just shook it up and used it. It is a wonder drug especially if the fish have gone off food. I'll probably use fenbenazole for nematodes added to my mix if they are young and eating like little pigs.
Glad you had success with it also. :)

joanr
03-14-2010, 11:27 PM
Yep, probably the perfect time to get the little critters out of 'em. But be careful with the Fenben, my Golden Butterfly had a real bad reaction to the flake when it was a little juvie, the others didn't. Ok, so the powder does separate while refrigerated, good to know, I almost threw out the solution because of that....lol.

chhabi19
05-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Eddie,

When you say "vermasol", you mean "vermisol" from Foy's Pigeon right? I have my hands on "vermisol" now. I am preparing to deworm by fish. Want to make sure that I do it right.

Thanks.


I use vermasol at 380 mg/ 10 gallons of water.

Eddie
05-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Eddie,

When you say "vermasol", you mean "vermisol" from Foy's Pigeon right? I have my hands on "vermisol" now. I am preparing to deworm by fish. Want to make sure that I do it right.

Thanks.

Yes vermisol....mispelling. :o