Ph

[bluedimond123]

Hello all, my ph is higher than most tap water is an I would like to know if it is ok to put discus in my tank comming from lower ph? Any help would be appreciated.
Jeff

[Chad Hughes]

What Ph are they in and what Ph are you trying to put them in? Usually moves up in Ph are nothing to be too concerned about. Dropping thePh can be disastrous. A little more info?

Best wishes!

[bluedimond123]

My ph is 8.0 8.5, an I would like to get some discus from a local an his ph is 6.5 7.0.
Jeff

[Keith Perkins]

I usually use some form of the drip method to acclimate new fish to my water over the period of an hour or more and have never had any issues with PH changes. I recently bought an awesome male RT from Carolina Discus who's PH is between 7 & 7.5 and he's doing awesome in my water who's PH is below 6. If you acclimate them slowly, you shouldn't have any problems IME.

[gwrace]

I usually use some form of the drip method to acclimate new fish to my water over the period of an hour or more and have never had any issues with PH changes. I recently bought an awesome male RT from Carolina Discus who's PH is between 7 & 7.5 and he's doing awesome in my water who's PH is below 6. If you acclimate them slowly, you shouldn't have any problems IME.

From Discus Hans....

As long as the PH of the new tank is higher there should not be any issues. When we received our 6 juvies from Hans he recommended we do the plop and drop. Our PH is 7.6-7.8 which was higher that the water they were coming from in Maryland. We had no issues and the fish were hungry and ready to eat within just a few minutes.

[Chad Hughes]

You should be fine just adding the new discus to your tank.

Best wishes!

[wesleydnunder]

I agree that if acclimated properly they should be fine.

Additionally, according to Robert T. Ricketts, long-time aquarist, scientist and occasional contributor to TFH and several web forums, fish have no receptors for ph and have no idea if the water they're in is at 7.5 or 6.5. What is commonly referred to as "ph shock" is actually osmotic shock caused not by changes in ph, but by changes in TDS, which effect osmolarity.

[Chad Hughes]

I agree that if acclimated properly they should be fine.

Additionally, according to Robert T. Ricketts, long-time aquarist, scientist and occasional contributor to TFH and several web forums, fish have no receptors for ph and have no idea if the water they're in is at 7.5 or 6.5. What is commonly referred to as "ph shock" is actually osmotic shock caused not by changes in ph, but by changes in TDS, which effect osmolarity.

Amen Mark!

I've made this exact statement more times than I can count!

You're spot on!

Best wishes!

[bluedimond123]

Thanks Guys, in that case im going to order 2 mercury discus an 2 rose reds!
Jeff

[mmorris]

I agree that if acclimated properly they should be fine.

Additionally, according to Robert T. Ricketts, long-time aquarist, scientist and occasional contributor to TFH and several web forums, fish have no receptors for ph and have no idea if the water they're in is at 7.5 or 6.5. What is commonly referred to as "ph shock" is actually osmotic shock caused not by changes in ph, but by changes in TDS, which effect osmolarity.

I see that quote in his 'new tank syndrome' article. However, elsewhere Ricketts seems quite concerned that tank ph, along with kh (ph related), gh and nitrates, remain stable between wc's, the neglect of which can lead to health issues and/or death.
http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article55.html

Perhaps you are just referring to the original introduction of fish.

[Chad Hughes]

I see that quote in his 'new tank syndrome' article. However, elsewhere Ricketts seems quite concerned that tank ph, along with kh (ph related), gh and nitrates, remain stable between wc's, the neglect of which can lead to health issues and/or death.
http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article55.html

Perhaps you are just referring to the original introduction of fish.

That is rather interesting. In a planted tank with CO2 injection, it's not possible to match the Ph of clean water with tank water. The Ph will always rise during a water change and then settle back to it's original range with CO2 injection. In all my years of keeping planted aqauriums, I can say that I could report any adverse reactions to Ph swing in the positive direction during a water change.

[nc0gnet0]

It is however a well known fact that nitrite is much more toxic at elevated PH levels. Add to this many anti-biotics just don't work (tetracycline for example) when added to water that has elevated PH. I think it is a case of both PH and TDS, coupled with ORP combined.

[wesleydnunder]

I see that quote in his 'new tank syndrome' article. However, elsewhere Ricketts seems quite concerned that tank ph, along with kh (ph related), gh and nitrates, remain stable between wc's, the neglect of which can lead to health issues and/or death.
http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article55.html

Perhaps you are just referring to the original introduction of fish.

RTR has been a member of a few forums to which I belonged and I've had several online conversations with him through posts, as well as reading his comments in other posts. IMO he was always more concerned with the stability of KH and GH (TDS) and possible osmolarity issues from instability of those than ph. I wouldn't presume to try to speak for the man but that was always the impression I got from him. On the nitrate issue, he'd said that it wasn't only the nitrate to watch out for, but also DOCs that build up along with it. Since nitrate is a compound we can easily test for, it is used as a gauge of those other DOCs as well to determine frequency and amount of partial water changes. In hi tech planted tanks we often add nitrate after we've removed it along with the DOCs doing partials.


That is rather interesting. In a planted tank with CO2 injection, it's not possible to match the Ph of clean water with tank water. The Ph will always rise during a water change and then settle back to it's original range with CO2 injection. In all my years of keeping planted aqauriums, I can say that I could report any adverse reactions to Ph swing in the positive direction during a water change.

I agree fully. I ran the co2 in my discus tank on a day/night cycle. The concomitant ph swings never seemed to effect the tank inhabitants, likewise water changes.


It is however a well known fact that nitrite is much more toxic at elevated PH levels. Add to this many anti-biotics just don't work (tetracycline for example) when added to water that has elevated PH. I think it is a case of both PH and TDS, coupled with ORP combined.

Good point. I think ammonia is also more toxic as ph rises.

[mmorris]

IMO he was always more concerned with the stability of KH and GH (TDS) and possible osmolarity issues from instability of those than ph.


KH buffers the water to keep ph from dropping. He wouldn't be concerned with kh unless he was concerned with ph swings.

[wesleydnunder]

KH buffers the water to keep ph from dropping. He wouldn't be concerned with kh unless he was concerned with ph swings.

More, I think, in maintaining a minimum stable kh to avoid ph crashes which can make the water so acidic that it's lethal to biofilter and tank inhabitants.

You may be right, morris. I'm operating from a very imperfect understanding of chemistry and biochemistry. I've been a tron pusher my whole life. Over the decades I've kept fish, keeping the tank water as close to the source water in terms of TDS has seemed to me a much more important factor in long-term fish health and happiness than ph. Aside from the ph testing involved in helping some local aquarists set up co2 systems, I haven't taken a ph test in years.

[calihawker]

Aside from the ph testing involved in helping some local aquarists set up co2 systems, I haven't taken a ph test in years.

Interesting to hear someone besides myself take this approach to ph. I wouldn't have said it here for fear of being slammed but truth is I never test for ph. I think one of the biggest mistakes a new aquarist can make is trying to target ph with chemicals and end up "chasing the monster" back and forth ultimately creating a stressful environment.

[wesleydnunder]

Interesting to hear someone besides myself take this approach to ph. I wouldn't have said it here for fear of being slammed but truth is I never test for ph. I think one of the biggest mistakes a new aquarist can make is trying to target ph with chemicals and end up "chasing the monster" back and forth ultimately creating a stressful environment.

I've seen folks do that as well, Steve, typically to the detriment of their fish.

As for getting slammed, I don't worry too much about that. I've got pretty thick hide. When it happens it ultimately makes me a better aquarist, I think, because it prompts me to do some more research...all part of a big learning curve. LOL

[mmorris]

There is a difference between trying to target a ph and trying to stabilize ph.
People sometimes use products to try to drop their ph and then keep it at the lower value because they heard that discus need a low ph. That is where the problems come in, I think. Others, such as myself, use products to keep it stable at whatever ph the water naturally is. If the ph is high and stable, leave it alone! If the ph crashes between wc's because of insufficient kh, then the water needs to be buffered.

[calihawker]

I suppose I'm not surprised that people who don't see ph swings as an issue don't have ph issues. :)

I can't really explain why but even with my very low kh, near zero, I don't get ph swings. When I say I don't test for ph that's not entirely true because my display tank has a ph probe, but since the ph never goes anywhere I don't hardly ever look at it. The tanks been up and running for 3 years now and I haven't lost one fish.

[mmorris]

I have almost no kh and I get a ph swing of 1/2 point or more within a day. I used to think I had no ph swing until I got a Hanna ph meter, which is more accurate and easier to read.

[calihawker]

I have almost no kh and I get a ph swing of 1/2 point or more within a day. I used to think I had no ph swing until I got a Hanna ph meter, which is more accurate and easier to read.

You know after having this discussion I'm gonna calibrate my probe and see what it does during the day. I have an aquacontroller.

Do you think 1/2 a point is detrimental? What constitutes a "crash"?

[wesleydnunder]

There is a difference between trying to target a ph and trying to stabilize ph.
People sometimes use products to try to drop their ph and then keep it at the lower value because they heard that discus need a low ph. That is where the problems come in, I think. Others, such as myself, use products to keep it stable at whatever ph the water naturally is. If the ph is high and stable, leave it alone! If the ph crashes between wc's because of insufficient kh, then the water needs to be buffered.

I agree 100%. I think it's all about the stability. Fortunately, our tapwater originates as surface water from the Brazos River which picks up a lot of carbonate on its way south through the hill country. My tap TDS can approach 700 ppm, about a third of which is sodium; the rest, liquid rock. At times the KH here can be 13 and seldom less than 10, depending on rainfall up north in the watershed. Buffering, we got!

[wesleydnunder]

I have almost no kh and I get a ph swing of 1/2 point or more within a day. I used to think I had no ph swing until I got a Hanna ph meter, which is more accurate and easier to read.

By 1/2 point, do you mean a half log?

[mmorris]

Yes, I think that's a half-log. I don't think I ever lost fish because of it, but I have wondered if in the past they were thriving as they should. Now I add sodium bicarbonate to each tank. I tried crushed coral and just gave up on the stuff. It seems the coral dissolves too slowly given my wc regime and need for buffering.

[mmorris]

My tap TDS can approach 700 ppm, about a third of which is sodium; the rest, liquid rock. At times the KH here can be 13 and seldom less than 10, depending on rainfall up north in the watershed. Buffering, we got!

So for breeding it's ro for you then, Mark? :D

[wesleydnunder]

Back when I was injecting co2, my baseline ph was 7.6 and my target with injection was 6.6 to achieve 30 ppm. At night with the co2 off the ph rose to 7.0 just before lights on and fell to 6.6 a couple hours later where it stayed until lights off. Aside from the discus I kept cardinals, rasbora hets, green fire tetras, otos, kuhli loaches, ABNs, amano shrimp and blue neocardina shrimp in the tank. I never noticed any of the critters stressing. The discus spawned numerous times as did the green fire tetras and otos.

[wesleydnunder]

So for breeding it's ro for you then, Mark? :D

I've gotten several spawns but no fry over the years. The male from the last pair would eat the eggs almost immediately so I never got to the "are the eggs viable?" stage. A couple of our HAS members have raised fry from our tapwater with no issues which kind of dispelled the "calcifying eggs" theory that I've often read. The breeders from whom I bought my first discus had similar water hardness and they had several pairs producing for them for years.

Right now it's kind of a moot point as I don't have the time and tankspace to devote to raising babies. Maybe if I ever get to retire...

[nc0gnet0]

If I might add, I see alot about TDS (total dissolved solids), its kind of a catch all as this number can be made up of many different things, and alot has to do with what solids are in the makeup. Is it calcium, magnesium, sodium, et all?

As for PH swings, I would summise that those with planted aquariums and very low KH would be the ones expierancing the highest PH swings, for the very same reason that c02 injection is effective in lowering ph. While most people think that plants add o2 to the water, this is only half true, as they release oxygen during the day, and then c02 at night (photosythesis). This results in PH swings of varying degrees, but a highly planted tank with a very low KH would seem likely to expierance the largest swings.


Over the decades I've kept fish, keeping the tank water as close to the source water in terms of TDS has seemed to me a much more important factor in long-term fish health and happiness than ph.

Well, it is after all the componenets that made up the TDS that give the water its PH reading (and dissolved gasses). So in a way you were still kinda monitoring your ph, assuming the componenets that made up your TDS remained the same.

Singling out one component (PH, KH, GH, TDS, TDG,ORP, REDOX,etc) only gives you one piece of the puzzle. It how they all react together and understanding these reactions that is important.

there are a couple of good reads here:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/e_edelman_080397.html

[wesleydnunder]

Thanks ncOgnetO. I'd read Chucks page years ago when I first got into co2 injected tanks. The other link to Eric's article was very informative. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the link to his equations to work. Great info though.

[bluedimond123]

Well my ph remains very stable its been the same for 9 years an i expect it to stay that way, but I just would like to know if anyone has lost any fish due to the fish comming from a lower ph?

[bluedimond123]

Could wild discus go in my ph

[wesleydnunder]

Possibly. My wild RSGs are in ph 7.6, KH 10 to 12, GH around 19 sometimes higher. At times my TDS approaches 700 ppm. The RSGs have gotten large and seem none the worse for the water they live in. I also kept wild blues in the same water and they thrived and spawned repeatedly.

[tdiscusman]

I agree that if acclimated properly they should be fine.

Additionally, according to Robert T. Ricketts, long-time aquarist, scientist and occasional contributor to TFH and several web forums, fish have no receptors for ph and have no idea if the water they're in is at 7.5 or 6.5. What is commonly referred to as "ph shock" is actually osmotic shock caused not by changes in ph, but by changes in TDS, which effect osmolarity.

Very interesting discussion. "Fish has no receptors for ph". I'm no expert, but, IMHO, I don't think this statement is true. If Fish has no receptor for ph then, there's no need to keep the ph stable, I can use chemical to immediately lower the ph from 8.5 to 6 (this shouldn't change TDS very much) then discus shouldn't feel a thing? Why do the instruction in the ph down chemical botttle always recommended to lower ph gradually?

I've also notice that ph changed also induced spawning behavior (not with W/C, just lower ph using chemical). they "dance" when I lower the ph?

IMHO, They must have felt something.

Tony

[wesleydnunder]

Good point, Tony. I wish I knew enough about chemistry to say for sure one way or another. I'm far from expert myself.

How does the KH keep the ph buffered in the presence of acids? Do the acids combine with the carbonate, neutralizing the acids in the process? If so, could those components of carbonate be lost in the process, thereby changing TDS? I need to ask a water chemistry expert about this subject. Meanwhile this has been a great discussion.

[tdiscusman]

Hi Westley,

was there a write-up or online article where Robert T. Ricketts talk about "fish has no receptors for ph"? I like to read more about it.

Thanks
Tony

[tdiscusman]

Also, If I understand Mr. Picketts correctly, then he is saying that fish is sensitive to TDS changes. How sensitive? would 500ppm swing cause stress? When adding salt, for treatment purpose, the TDS could increase by 500ppm, easy, (I know salt does not increase KH or GH but it increase the overall total dissolved solid (TDS)) and the discus seem happier not stress. How does one explain that?

Thanks
Tony

[wesleydnunder]

Hey, Tony. In his article, 'Salt of the Earth', he goes into the use of salt in FW aquarium.

The quote about ph and lack of receptors came from several posts he made at Aquaria Central and other forums over the years...not sure if it is written down in one of his published articles.

Since I've never added salt to a discus tank, I have no idea why they would seem "happier" with the addition of salt. My discus have never seemed "unhappy" without salt. It would, as you say, increase TDS.

All good points and food for thought Tony.