Black Brush algae

[smiley]

Arghhhhhh.... :mad:

Looks like i am doomed :(

My 50G tank is fast growing with brush algae and all my anubias etc are getting covered with those nasty stuff :(

Anyone dealt with this before ? Any safe liquids? (heard of JBL algol etc? - Do they actually work? )

I am not sure if i have a SAE (because of the varities these days)...I shall try to post pictures of the algae eaters that i have

Please help on how to get rid of this

[Krennen]

Seachem Flourish Excel is a carbon replacement and will eliminate the BBB. I used to fight it all the time in my coummunity NPT, but the Flourish eliminated the problem.

[Wahter]

Seachem Flourish Excel

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html

Works on getting rid of the stringy green hair algae too.


Walter

[JL15219]

Yeah like the others said Excel is your best bet....I used in my tank when I had BBA and it really helped get rid of it....It works best to try to squirt some directly to the BBA it will turn pink....try to remove as many affected leaves as possible that really helps a lot.....I actually reread the post and it said it is on your anubias I dont know if you really want to remove any leaves from that since it grows so slow, but if you have it on any other try to remove the affected leaves.......anubias are really prone to get all sorts of algae since they grow very slow

[cyberhog05]

Hydrogen peroxide(h2o2)..cheap and works great. I have used it many times with excellent results. 1.5cups in my 180 gallon or during h20 changes I dump it directly on the plants that have any algae. When I get lazy and dont clean my canisters I get bba.

[Wahter]

Be careful when you use any chemical - some people have had adverse effects when using Excel - I've dosed at twice the recommended amount without any problems. Hydrogen peroxide can be dangerous if used incorrectly too.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=76637
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75754
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75016
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74138

Search through the forum's posts for more info. :)



Walter

[DiscusOnly]

I had this problem with my driftwood only tank. It was getting out of control and since my DW were branches, cleaning was a lot of work. I had a 13" albino pleco in there and it didn't help. I finally had it and threw in a crayfish and it only took 3 days BBA was almost completely gone.

[smiley]

crayfish in a discus tank? is it okay?

[Double Up]

I pulled all my plants and did a diluted bleach treatment i read about online which within minutes removed the bb algae. I have since been using seachem flourish excel along with regular flourish and havent had it come back(8 months)

[DiscusOnly]

crayfish in a discus tank? is it okay?

I think people are going to recommend not puttting it with discus but if you have a pretty big tank, I don't see a problem with a small crayfish. I currently have 1 that roam the floor of a 6 foot tank.

[daboo]

I would like to get back to the topic of Flourish Excel. From Seachem's description it seems to only provide intermediates of the sugar synthesis pathway. Does anyone know how this helps stop BBA and hair algae?

Is it just that if the plants thrive better they soak up all the nutrients so the algae can't grow well?

[whitedevil]

on the SAE's they are two toned, black stripe from NOSE to the V of the tail and in the tail it tapers to a point( the black lateral line). they work awesome on the hard to deal with algaes.
I keep two in every tank I got.

excel can damage some plants to nothing so becareful with that stuff, its great but vals and such cant stand it.

[Wahter]

on the SAE's they are two toned, black stripe from NOSE to the V of the tail and in the tail it tapers to a point( the black lateral line). they work awesome on the hard to deal with algaes.
I keep two in every tank I got.


I like Siamese Algae Eaters too. Most of the time, by the time they grow up, they figure out it's easier to wait for feeding to than to forage on the algae, but they still take snacks from time to time. :)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27535&d=1188797431

The youngsters are good at taking care of this:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12193&d=1140143311


Walter

[whitedevil]

My oldest ones are about 4" long now nickle size diameter maybe bigger, yes they do take the feeding food often but they are carp afterall and carp jsut graze constantly, my 52g had BBA and hair algae, within 3 FULL days(24hrs x3) I was down to itty bitty left overs by day 5 it was gone, I now add the hair algae from my guppy tank to their tank and they take it from hand at the surface, they see it and they rush up like my angels do for the bloodworm flat when I break it out.

They never lose their taste for the stuff though they always graze on stuff unlike other algae eating fish.

I saw one of Chris Z.s personal ones, it was freaking HUGE and still munching on algae so I hold very high hopes when it comes to these specific fish, My 1yo RNP only eats the algae wafers and kens catfish pellets.(cept when beefheart hits the bottom then its his and he makes it known to all)

[smiley]

I have got it under control now with the intro of 2 SAEs and they are having a gr8 munching tym...My wife just looked into the tank and said..did you just bleach all the plants :D

[waters10]

I would like to get back to the topic of Flourish Excel. From Seachem's description it seems to only provide intermediates of the sugar synthesis pathway. Does anyone know how this helps stop BBA and hair algae?

Is it just that if the plants thrive better they soak up all the nutrients so the algae can't grow well?
No, it's more than that. Here (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=451399&postcount=3), somebody that works for seachem explains why they can't market Excel as an algaecide, although it acts as one. They call it an added benefit.

Excel is glutaraldehyde solution, which is used as a disinfectant on other products. In fact, on this thread (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/south-western-ohio-aquatic-plant-enthusiasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel.html), there's a discussion about using diluted disinfectant products in place of excel. That's much cheaper than buying excel. I dose excel as a carbon source right now, which can be expensive for bigger tanks (I have 85g). So I'm thinking about going with these alternatives or pressurized CO2.

[daboo]

Thank you Waters10,
I should say I am a biochemist so I'm trying to understand exactly what is going on. I even searched scientific journals to see if anyone studied metabolism of glutaraldehyde in plants. I found nothing. I guess it is just hypothetical that glutaraldehyde somehow enters the Calvin cycle to provide intermediates for sugar synthesis. The positive results in growth everyone boasts about implies this. What I find more perplexing is why can this be a nutrient for higher plants yet it is toxic for photosynthetic algae and does not seem to harm beneficial bacteria. Clearly there is a distinct difference in the way higher and lower plants respond to this carbon source.

I can understand why Seachem has to market it as a plant fertilizer. They would need to go back to the FDA if they want to market it as an algaecide which at this stage probably would not be profitable.

I should give a warning about the discussion you linked. Glutaraldehyde is a potent chemical and I caution against using it in an aquarium. It is highly reactive and if you put it in an aquarium in its monomer state it will react with anything it finds. That means certain chemical groups on your fish will get modified by it. Aldehydes will also readily react with dissolved chemicals from food (like amino acids found in protein) or fish waste to yield inert compounds.

Excel comes as a polymeric form of glutaraldehyde - in the form of an acetal. Acetals are much less reactive and in water can slowly reverse back to the much more reactive aldehydes. This is why I feel much safer using Excel. The slower release of the aldehyde will promote reactions with dissolved chemicals rather than your fish being directly exposed to higher concentrations of it.

I bought my first bottle last night and will start dosing the 90 gallon tank today. Last night I gave another 20 gallon aquarium the recommended dose so I'm anxious to see if the hair and blue-green algae die off.

[waters10]

Thank you Waters10,
I should say I am a biochemist so I'm trying to understand exactly what is going on. I even searched scientific journals to see if anyone studied metabolism of glutaraldehyde in plants. I found nothing. I guess it is just hypothetical that glutaraldehyde somehow enters the Calvin cycle to provide intermediates for sugar synthesis. The positive results in growth everyone boasts about implies this. What I find more perplexing is why can this be a nutrient for higher plants yet it is toxic for photosynthetic algae and does not seem to harm beneficial bacteria. Clearly there is a distinct difference in the way higher and lower plants respond to this carbon source.

I can understand why Seachem has to market it as a plant fertilizer. They would need to go back to the FDA if they want to market it as an algaecide which at this stage probably would not be profitable.

I should give a warning about the discussion you linked. Glutaraldehyde is a potent chemical and I caution against using it in an aquarium. It is highly reactive and if you put it in an aquarium in its monomer state it will react with anything it finds. That means certain chemical groups on your fish will get modified by it. Aldehydes will also readily react with dissolved chemicals from food (like amino acids found in protein) or fish waste to yield inert compounds.


Well, since you're a biochemist and I'm just a mech engineer, this (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=448821&postcount=141) should make more sense to you. Supposedly, it was taken from a DOW paper, showing how glutaraldehyde supplies CO2 when added to water.



Excel comes as a polymeric form of glutaraldehyde - in the form of an acetal. Acetals are much less reactive and in water can slowly reverse back to the much more reactive aldehydes. This is why I feel much safer using Excel. The slower release of the aldehyde will promote reactions with dissolved chemicals rather than your fish being directly exposed to higher concentrations of it.

Yeah, I read on that thread about how excel has glutaraldehyde in a different form. I'm not sure if one is more lethal than the other. I've read reports about how fish can die by just swimming throw excel stream while it's been dosed! And it seems a lot of people had good results with cidex and similar products on that thread! Both as a carbon source and as algaecide. I haven't decided if I'll use this or not. I'm leaning to continue using excel for now and go with pressurized co2 later down the road.



I bought my first bottle last night and will start dosing the 90 gallon tank today. Last night I gave another 20 gallon aquarium the recommended dose so I'm anxious to see if the hair and blue-green algae die off.
I've been dosing excel on my 85g tank for a while now and it has no effect on algae if you use regular doses. Everything I hear about excel as algaecide, it involves spot treating (turn filter off, and inject excel right at the algae with syringe), or overdosing 2 or 3 times (not willing to do with my discus). So I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work for you. Keep us posted! :)

[daboo]

Well, since you're a biochemist and I'm just a mech engineer, this (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showpost.php?p=448821&postcount=141) should make more sense to you. Supposedly, it was taken from a DOW paper, showing how glutaraldehyde supplies CO2 when added to water.
Thank you for pointing that out. What I am about to say I conferred with another colleague who has more of an organic chemistry background than myself just to make sure I wasn't being ignorant. I hate to say this but that reaction scheme is not feasible in aquarium settings. Slow conversion of an aldehyde to an acid (first reaction) might occur but only very slowly if at all. The second reaction is bogus. You will not get spontaneous decarboxylation of organic acids to form CO2. If that happened life as we know it would be in trouble.

These reactions could be catalyzed by enzymes but it won't happen spontaneously in aquarium settings. For example we can metabolize alcohol (ethanol). We have enzymes that first oxidize ethanol to acetaldehyde (note the aldehyde group as found with glutaraldehyde) and that is further oxidized by another enzyme to acetic acid (like the first reaction on your link). Acetic acid (aka vinegar) can be used as an energy source by our cells.

I believe something similar is happening with glutaraldehyde. My bets are the aldehyde groups are being oxidized to acids to form glutaric acid which can probably be acted upon by other enzymes to convert glutaric acid to something that can enter the Calvin cycle which plants used to photosynthetically produce sugar. When you read the Seachem description they imply this mechanism which I support. It was this type of metabolic conversion that I searched for in scientific literature but apparently no one has looked into this. Similar reactions do occur though. I don't buy the idea that glutaraldehyde produces CO2. Instead the carbon atoms of glutaraldehyde are entering the Calvin cycle by a different mechanism.


Yeah, I read on that thread about how excel has glutaraldehyde in a different form. I'm not sure if one is more lethal than the other. I've read reports about how fish can die by just swimming throw excel stream while it's been dosed! I'm not surprised. Glutaraldehyde will be even much worse. I dilute anything I add to the tank in my water changes. It is generally bad practice to add pure or concentrated chemicals directly to the aquarium.



I've been dosing excel on my 85g tank for a while now and it has no effect on algae if you use regular doses. Everything I hear about excel as algaecide, it involves spot treating (turn filter off, and inject excel right at the algae with syringe), or overdosing 2 or 3 times (not willing to do with my discus). So I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work for you. Keep us posted! :)It seemed many reported they saw algaecidal effects using it normally. Wikipedia says it is effective between 0.5-5 ppm which is not very much. I'll have to see. My plan is to use it as a supplement for the plants just so they stay healthy. For that I doubt I would need to keep it at the suggested dose. I'm ramping up the dose in my 90 gallon tank adding 1/3 the recommended dose every 2nd day. Then I might give it the maintenance doses every 2nd day after that and hopefully see the hair algae diminish. Then I plan on lowering the doseage by not administering Excel so frequently.

[waters10]

Thank you for pointing that out. What I am about to say I conferred with another colleague who has more of an organic chemistry background than myself just to make sure I wasn't being ignorant. I hate to say this but that reaction scheme is not feasible in aquarium settings. Slow conversion of an aldehyde to an acid (first reaction) might occur but only very slowly if at all. The second reaction is bogus. You will not get spontaneous decarboxylation of organic acids to form CO2. If that happened life as we know it would be in trouble.

These reactions could be catalyzed by enzymes but it won't happen spontaneously in aquarium settings. For example we can metabolize alcohol (ethanol). We have enzymes that first oxidize ethanol to acetaldehyde (note the aldehyde group as found with glutaraldehyde) and that is further oxidized by another enzyme to acetic acid (like the first reaction on your link). Acetic acid (aka vinegar) can be used as an energy source by our cells.

I believe something similar is happening with glutaraldehyde. My bets are the aldehyde groups are being oxidized to acids to form glutaric acid which can probably be acted upon by other enzymes to convert glutaric acid to something that can enter the Calvin cycle which plants used to photosynthetically produce sugar. When you read the Seachem description they imply this mechanism which I support. It was this type of metabolic conversion that I searched for in scientific literature but apparently no one has looked into this. Similar reactions do occur though. I don't buy the idea that glutaraldehyde produces CO2. Instead the carbon atoms of glutaraldehyde are entering the Calvin cycle by a different mechanism.
Interesting. Half of that went woosh over my head, but I think we can assume it works as a carbon source, based on all the real life results posted.


I'm not surprised. Glutaraldehyde will be even much worse. I dilute anything I add to the tank in my water changes. It is generally bad practice to add pure or concentrated chemicals directly to the aquarium.
I put everything concentrated drop by drop right at my filter outlet, so it gets quickly dispersed. I do that with excel and my fertz solutions.


It seemed many reported they saw algaecidal effects using it normally. Wikipedia says it is effective between 0.5-5 ppm which is not very much. I'll have to see. My plan is to use it as a supplement for the plants just so they stay healthy. For that I doubt I would need to keep it at the suggested dose. I'm ramping up the dose in my 90 gallon tank adding 1/3 the recommended dose every 2nd day. Then I might give it the maintenance doses every 2nd day after that and hopefully see the hair algae diminish. Then I plan on lowering the doseage by not administering Excel so frequently.
I've been dosing the recommended dosage for more than a month. I've also upped my light intensity (2 T5HO bulbs) and my photoperiod (8 hours now) and algae has increased instead of decreasing. My point is, that there's a lot of variables to algae. I think the recommended dosage might work as a preventative, but if algae is already there, it's not gonna kill it.

Anyway, this will soon be a moot point for me, as I'm going pressurized CO2 soon (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=78724). I might still use excel as an algaecide, but I'm hoping the pressurized CO2 helps me minimize algae ...

[vera]

I had brush and thread algae since summer heat , 2 months back i started dosing Seachem Excel every day for a month - unfortunately it didnt work , last month i decided to do DIY CO2 inject at 2 bobble per sec , dosing Iron Chelate 13% and PMDD pre-mix (got online) , temp was reduced to 26 for 3 days -and voila - tank algae free :)
GL all

[Alok]

I had a bout of black brush algae a few years ago. NO amount of water changing, light cutting etc. made any difference. Finally, I just broke down the whole tank, sterilized everything in it (in an autoclave) and reset the tank. It never came back :)

[daboo]

Interesting. Half of that went woosh over my head, but I think we can assume it works as a carbon source, based on all the real life results posted.I liked the way you reference other threads. One of my reasons for going to that detail is anyone can reference this now with the links to the previous threads. It seems some errant information is out there so my intention was that someone who knows something about organic chemistry can comment on what is feasible and what is fantasy. :D

I find it interesting that some others came in saying how Excel did not cure their algae while previously what got me started is others did claim it killed it. My tank was being overtaken with hair algae quite a bit but I noticed if I feed my plants fertilizer they did better and the hair algae stopped growing so aggressively. It was like one or the other would grow well so I have been trying to favor the plants. I'm hoping Excel will improve their growth even more and maybe I'll see the hair algae diminish or die even more.

I'll try to report back after I give it more time to work. Tonight will be my second dose going up to 2/3s the recommended level. As you can see I try to be conservative when making a significant change to the chemistry of my discus tank.

[waters10]

I liked the way you reference other threads. One of my reasons for going to that detail is anyone can reference this now with the links to the previous threads. It seems some errant information is out there so my intention was that someone who knows something about organic chemistry can comment on what is feasible and what is fantasy. :D

Oh, for sure! Don't take my comment as I was dismissing your explanation! It was more about me showing my ignorance on the subject. Basically, I'm a lurker in a ton of forums. I only post on few forums, but I search a lot of different ones. In this case, I have 0 actual knowledge, so I have to rely on what people post. Posts like yours establish a sense of credibility, even though I didn't get 1/2 of that! :D


I find it interesting that some others came in saying how Excel did not cure their algae while previously what got me started is others did claim it killed it. My tank was being overtaken with hair algae quite a bit but I noticed if I feed my plants fertilizer they did better and the hair algae stopped growing so aggressively. It was like one or the other would grow well so I have been trying to favor the plants. I'm hoping Excel will improve their growth even more and maybe I'll see the hair algae diminish or die even more.

I'll try to report back after I give it more time to work. Tonight will be my second dose going up to 2/3s the recommended level. As you can see I try to be conservative when making a significant change to the chemistry of my discus tank.
Algae is a very complex subject. You'll find so many contradictory reports that it's hard to find real facts. Excel works as an algaecide. The question is, what are the conditions necessary to make it work? Things like dosage, types of algae (like hair algae could be 2-3 different types. I read people saying there's one type of thread algae that thrives in the same conditions as plants!), lighting (type, photoperioed, etc), fish load, water tap chemistry, etc. Good luck finding your own solution! I didn't fine mine yet!

To finish, here's a good link (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html) for a method that the author claims it's a 100% guaranteed! Here's the discussion (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/62516-method-controlled-imbalances-discussion.html) about this methods. I haven't tried, but in principle, I like it because it bases on the concept that every tank is different and has instructions on how to find what would work for you. The only problem is I don't like the pre-requisites: very very high light and very very high CO2 ... Good read though!

[mlw]

Be careful when you use any chemical - some people have had adverse effects when using Excel - I've dosed at twice the recommended amount without any problems. Hydrogen peroxide can be dangerous if used incorrectly too.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=76637
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75754
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75016
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74138

Search through the forum's posts for more info. :)



Walter

Yeah I killed my cories using double dosed excel. I have also used it to spot treat driftwood during a water change and killed BBA off. First algae turned bright red then white then gone!

[born2lovefish]

I use pressurized co2, but my levels were unsteady for long time and I got a bad case of BBA in my 75 gallon planted. Tried overdosing excel, but quickly found it was going to be expensive in the long run to keep dosing it. Thanks to people at plantedtank.net, I found out that glutaraldehyde is the main thing in excel that kills BBA. There is some people that reference excel to containing 1.5% glutaraldehyde. Mericide 14 is a disinfectant used in the medical field and contains 2.6% glutaraldehyde. I bought a gallon shipped for just over $22, which is a fraction of the cost of excel. Extreme caution should be used to avoid skin contact with glutaraldehyde, as I have been told. I started dosing it the other night at 20-25ml a day, as suggusted by Tom Barr. Will try to keep people posted on the results for using it to kill BBA.

*Note: If Mericide 14 is used, do not add the activator to the gallon jug that comes with it. Just throw the little bottle of activator in the garbage.

Here is the link to my post on plantedtank.net, which may be able to answer some other related questions some may have.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/105914-glutaraldehyde.html

[daboo]

I just want to report back on my experience since I have been using Excel at the recommended dose first, then cutting back a bit. It does not kill the hair algae I have. I have a little BBA growing but it is minimal.

In a separate 20 gallon tank Excel stopped growth of blue-green algae. That had been a chronic problem in that tank but Excel clearly inhibits its growth.

All the plants seem to grow better with Excel present.

[scottishbloke]

I recently had my first ever outbreak of BBA in my 90g barebottom tank, which has a large branchy driftwood feature with Anubias planted on its core. The BBA started on one branch but very rapidly began to cover all the driftwood and plant leaves and looked horrible. I double dosed the tank with Excel, taking care to mix it in a 3 gallon bucket of water beforehand: after 2 days the algae turned pink, then went fully white after another 2 days, after which time it disintegrated completely and disappeared. It has not been back since :D I do have some of that very hard to scrape off green spot algae on the wood also, which does not seem to be harmed by Excel at all, but my clean-up crew always keep that scraped down to a micro-thin layer so it's never a problem.

Colin

[kitykatfunkiehat]

WOAH! Excel eliminates algae? Any kind? I use it on my planted 29, but I have a pleco in there, so I figured he was cleaning it...but the excel works too? That is GREAT news!

[born2lovefish]

I recently had my first ever outbreak of BBA in my 90g barebottom tank, which has a large branchy driftwood feature with Anubias planted on its core. The BBA started on one branch but very rapidly began to cover all the driftwood and plant leaves and looked horrible. I double dosed the tank with Excel, taking care to mix it in a 3 gallon bucket of water beforehand: after 2 days the algae turned pink, then went fully white after another 2 days, after which time it disintegrated completely and disappeared. It has not been back since :D I do have some of that very hard to scrape off green spot algae on the wood also, which does not seem to be harmed by Excel at all, but my clean-up crew always keep that scraped down to a micro-thin layer so it's never a problem.

Colin

How much did you add to your 90 gallon to get rid of the BBA?

[scottishbloke]

How much did you add to your 90 gallon to get rid of the BBA?

The directions say 1 capful (5ml, one level teaspoon) per 10 gallons, so a 90g normal dose is 45ml; I did a double dose, which is 90ml, followed up by another double dose after my next 100% w/c; the second dose may not actually have been necessary, but I wanted to make sure the BBA died. Be patient- it took a couple of days to show any signs of dying (lightening from almost black to chestnut brown) and turned red, then pink, then white in the following days. I would also be careful with this stuff though- it can kill some types of fish and plants, especially in high doses. Do a search on this forum for more info from the experts and ask them for help regarding your situation if in doubt, I'm not an expert on this subject but it worked for me. I mixed it in a bucket of tank water first after a w/c and then added it near a filter outflow to make sure it dispersed very quickly. Some people do the opposite and spot treat by using a turkey baster or similar to squirt the Excel directly on the algae in major infestations, with reduced water movement.

HTH,

Colin

[born2lovefish]

Thanks, Colin.

That helps me out. I have been using about 15ml of the 2.6% glut. every night after the lights go out. I have been slowly increasing it every night and will continue until I reach 20-25ml or until my fish/plants show bad signs. I did do some spot treating with it on the filter spray bar and on my heater suction cups where the BBA was really bad. The spot treating is working, but there are many other areas that I can not spot treat.