Help me start off on the right foot

[smartino]

Hi all,

I recently joined this forum in hopes of getting the advice of people who have been doing this for a long time.

I just recently purchase 2 discus, 1 is 3 inches, the other 4 inches in size.

I have the following setup:

50 gallon Hex Tank
AquaClear 70 (old model number was 300)

Fish:

1 Cory Cat
2 Pleco's (1 is about 6 inches long, the other 3 inches)
4 German Blue Rams
2 Swordtails (Male and Female)
2 Balloon Belly Guppies
1 Angel Fish
2 Discus

Plants:

I am heading toward live plants, and have 50% of the tank on live plants and the other 50% on plastic (just to provide cover for the discus). I put barely enough gravel on the bottom to hold down the plants.

These are the areas I need help on:

Water:

I go to the local fish store every week and have my water checked (not a PetSmart or PetCo), but a store that only sells fish and the employees are knowledgeable. My parameters are always great, PH 7.0, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia is 0...water is hard

So now that I have the 2 new discus, I want to make sure that I do the right things to keep them healthy and alive.

My questions:

1. Based on the above, how often should I do water changes? The local store said either a 50% weekly or do 2-20% changes each week.

I have not verified, but I believe my tap water comes out a higher PH wise initially and settles down over time. I would be willing to store my water in say a 10 gallon (20% change) if that would allow me not to add chemicals to remove the chlorine, etc...

2. If the PH of my tap water is higher than the tank (I will confirm by bringing in a sample to the store), can I possibly be introducing stress to my fish with the 50% water changes? In all honesty, I was doing 50% water changes, and it seemed like my fish died more (previous Rams I owned). My gut is 20% multiple times per week is best. I also vacuum 50% of the gravel to remove food, waste, etc...when I change the water and just rinse the sponge and bio bag in the water I removed.

3. What products do you recommend to for water changes, I see Prime referenced quite a bit.

4. When and hopefully it doesn't happen, what products do you use to "save" your discus when they have problems. Should I be adding them on a regular basis to ward off anything just in case?

I have read through most of the posting here and honestly did not know what fit my situation best and decided to post instead. Hopefully I supplied all of the information you need...

What I am hoping for is a regime that I can follow each week to keep my fish healthy and one that takes into account the Discus needs for water quality.

thanks

Steve

[Spardas]

Hey Steve,

First of all welcome to SD! :D

Now, I'll be very honest with you but your tank currently will not let your discus thrive.

First of all, I'm assuming that you got those discus from the LFS near your home and it may or may not be the best of quality. This can potentially lead to problems if you have bad stock to start of with.

Second, discus do better in a group of 6 or more unless they're a pair.

Third, your other community fishes may or may not thrive in higher temperature (82-86) that are best suited for discus. Also those plecos are of concern because there's a small chance of them sucking the slime on the discus.

Fourth, I'm going to assume that you're a beginner with discus so I'd advise you to go bare bottom to make your life easier. Younger discus requires more feeding per day because they need it to grow.

So, I see 2 options available to you.

1) Donate or sell all your other fishes and get 4 more discus. (I don't like this option)

2) Keep your community fish in that tank and get a 55 or larger and another tank for QT purposes.

Cycle both tanks and move the 2 discus into QT and get 4 more and put them in the 55. See if you can get your discus from reputable sources like some of the sponsors here in the forum. Then take 1 discus of the group of 4 and put them with the 2 and observe some more and make sure they're okay for 1-2 weeks. Then put all 6 together.

Now to your questions.

1) Get an aging barrel and a heater and you can do 50% each day.

2) A fluctuation in pH is the cause of death of your rams. The water parameters need to be in sync. Therefore, I strongly advise an aging barrel because even a 20% W/C can be harmful.

3) Prime is a good choice. Safe is more economical.

4) http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=78466

[mmorris]

.

I just recently purchase 2 discus, 1 is 3 inches, the other 4 inches in size.

I have the following setup:

50 gallon Hex Tank
Fish:

1 Cory Cat
2 Pleco's (1 is about 6 inches long, the other 3 inches)
4 German Blue Rams
2 Swordtails (Male and Female)
2 Balloon Belly Guppies
1 Angel Fish
2 Discus

Plants:

I am heading toward live plants, and have 50% of the tank on live plants and the other 50% on plastic (just to provide cover for the discus). I put barely enough gravel on the bottom to hold down the plants.

These are the areas I need help on:

Water:

I go to the local fish store every week and have my water checked (not a PetSmart or PetCo), but a store that only sells fish and the employees are knowledgeable. My parameters are always great, PH 7.0, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia is 0...water is hard

So now that I have the 2 new discus, I want to make sure that I do the right things to keep them healthy and alive.

My questions:

1. Based on the above, how often should I do water changes? The local store said either a 50% weekly or do 2-20% changes each week.

I have not verified, but I believe my tap water comes out a higher PH wise initially and settles down over time. I would be willing to store my water in say a 10 gallon (20% change) if that would allow me not to add chemicals to remove the chlorine, etc...

2. If the PH of my tap water is higher than the tank (I will confirm by bringing in a sample to the store), can I possibly be introducing stress to my fish with the 50% water changes? In all honesty, I was doing 50% water changes, and it seemed like my fish died more (previous Rams I owned). My gut is 20% multiple times per week is best. I also vacuum 50% of the gravel to remove food, waste, etc...when I change the water and just rinse the sponge and bio bag in the water I removed.

3. What products do you recommend to for water changes, I see Prime referenced quite a bit.

4. When and hopefully it doesn't happen, what products do you use to "save" your discus when they have problems. Should I be adding them on a regular basis to ward off anything just in case?



Steve
You might want to re-think your plans. It is very likely that the two discus will not do well together. One is apt to stress the other fish, possibly to death. I do not recommend keeping fewer than six discus unless you have a confirmed breeding pair. You are trying to raise juvies in a planted tank. I highly recommend barebottom for ease of cleaning until they are adult. Medicating is difficult in a planted tank with substrate. Only use meds when you need to. A 50 gallon is not large enough, IMO, for a planted tank with the minimum of six discus, to say nothing of tank-mates. Buy your own ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and ph test kits. Know what your water is doing! Take the ph of the water straight out of the tap, aerate some water in a bucket for 24 hours or so and check the ph of that. If your water changes, you need to age your water. If it drops again after a day or two in the tanks, you will need to test the kh - the ability of your water to buffer. Prime is good. My advice: get the test kits, strip down the tank to bare bottom and get four more discus. I recommend you quarantine the new ones. Since you only have a 50, I recommend you remove the other miscellaneous fish. If you have 6 discus in a 50 gallon bare-bottom tank, I recommend 50% two-three times a week. The water going in needs to be the same temp and ph.
HTH

[mmorris]

Beat me to it, Spardas. :)

[waters10]

Yeah, like the others said, I see two distinct problems, 2 discus only and juvies on planted tanks.

Having 2 discus is a more serious problem. Because you'll have constant fighting and the smaller one will suffer. Best case, it'll get stunted. Worst case, it'll get sick and die.

Juvies on planted tanks is less of an issue, as long as you can keep good water quality. But that's usually only possible if you have plenty of experience. You have to make the call there, imo. Just be honest when assessing your own level of experience.

Funny enough, my first discus experience was with 2 juvies in a community planted tank, more than a decade ago. The dominant one, picked on the smaller all the time, non stop!! They both faced disease and survived. They were both stunted (around 4-4.5" size), but, believe it or not, they became a pair and laid eggs 3 times, before the male jumped and died ...

[smartino]

Thanks All for your advice!

I have to admit a bit of a shocker, but you are the experts and why I came here.

I really like Discus, Angels, and Rams, so I am inclined to go with Spardas's option of donating my other fish and purchasing more Discus, so left in my 50 gallon would be:

2 Discus (today)
4 Rams
1 Angel
1 Cory Cat (what you you recommend for bottom feeders) or should I just go with the BB tank.

Sorry at this time I don't have the option of two tanks, so I think we should think in terms of converting my current tank to the best possible Discus tank I can....

I will also work on getting some 5 gallon bottles (Poland Springs :) ) to store my water. If I do that can I forgo the Prime or Safe? I would think not, but wanted to ask...

On the testing front, how do you feel about the testing strips vs the chemical options for testing? It seems the strips do a good job but would rely on how this group does it.

Also, can you recommend the best breeders of Discus and do you purchase them online and have them shipped (assumed you did)...

thanks

Steve

[waters10]

Thanks All for your advice!

I have to admit a bit of a shocker, but you are the experts and why I came here.

I really like Discus, Angels, and Rams, so I am inclined to go with Spardas's option of donating my other fish and purchasing more Discus, so left in my 50 gallon would be:

2 Discus (today)
4 Rams
1 Angel
1 Cory Cat (what you you recommend for bottom feeders) or should I just go with the BB tank.

Sorry at this time I don't have the option of two tanks, so I think we should think in terms of converting my current tank to the best possible Discus tank I can....

I will also work on getting some 5 gallon bottles (Poland Springs :) ) to store my water. If I do that can I forgo the Prime or Safe? I would think not, but wanted to ask...

On the testing front, how do you feel about the testing strips vs the chemical options for testing? It seems the strips do a good job but would rely on how this group does it.

Also, can you recommend the best breeders of Discus and do you purchase them online and have them shipped (assumed you did)...

thanks

Steve
Your tank is not that big. You can get 5 discus there, per the 1 discus/10 gallon rule. But you already have an angel there. Most people would recommend you take him out, cause angels are more aggressive during feeding time. If you really like him, I'd keep him and get creative during feeding time, to make sure the discus get enough food. That's my opinion, but I have a feeling I'd be in the minority.

If you get 5 discus plus the angel, your stock level is on the high side. While it's possible to raise juvies on a gravel tank, having higher stock levels makes that even harder. Bare bottom will be a lot easier to maintain high water quality.

For testing, general consensus is that strips are not good. They absorb moisture and are considered not as accurate as liquid tests. I was tempted to get strips, cause they seem a lot easier to handle, but reading people's opinion made me just buy API tests. Check igo-pro (one of our sponsors) for some nice discounts on test kits.

Regarding where to buy from, I think almost everyone here will say that a big part of the success in raising juvies is to start with good stock! Check our sponsors area here. Don't be afraid of having fish shipped! I know the thought of having fish shipped can be an obstacle to newbies! If you have one of our sponsors close to you, I'd go that route, but if not, it's better to have some good, healthy fish shipped to you. Shipping may seem expensive, but it's worth the piece of mind that you got good stock.

Another factor is that you already got discus locally. So you have to QT new fish that you add to your tank. Do some research on quarantine procedures. If you get from our sponsors, I'd more worried of getting your new fish sick, rather than your old ones sick ... I know you said you didn't have a second tank. But a cheap 30g should do it for quarantine purposes. And it can become a hospital tank later down the road.

Good luck