Bare Bottom OR Substrate

[limpert]

Bare Bottom Vs Substrate... which one am I looking for?

I currently have a 40 gallon breeder (36"X18"X16") and am looking into possibly acquiring discus. I own a Marineland Pengiun 330 HOB filter which also has baskets in the rear of the filter for biological filtration. I have a heater which has worked for me for years as well as an air pump. I actually have 2 of these filters, but using both seems to make the water current too strong.

Right now I have 6 angelfish of all shapes and sizes with some other various community fish. I do 1/3 water change once a week and these fish have grown well and are very healthy. If i bought discus I would most likely trade in most of the fish i currently have.

I have heard arguments for and against substrate. I am looking for the lower maintenance alternative so i assume that bare bottom is the way to go-- with frequent water changes. At the same time i have heard that the substrate makes for a good means of biological filtration.

I do not need suggestions for new equipment because if I cannot make it happen with what i currently own than i would rather not go down that road.

Attached is a few pics of my tank when it was used temporarily for one of my african cichlids (venustus).

[Wahter]

Depends on what your goal is:

Do you want to grow out young/ juvenile discus? Feed a lot and do a lot of water changes will get them to grow out to their potential. Lots easier with a bare bottom tank.

Do you want the discus to breed? Easier with a bare bottom tank.

Do you want to get some adults for a display/ show tank? Substrate is okay here, just be diligent and keep it clean.

Also to note, dark backgrounds and dark substrates will make a discus darken up or (if they are pigeon blood based), possibly show peppering.



Walter

[waters10]

I think your problem is the size of that tank. Unless it's a growout tank only and you'll be moving to a bigger tank, the 40g is not ideal.

[limpert]

I think your problem is the size of that tank. Unless it's a growout tank only and you'll be moving to a bigger tank, the 40g is not ideal.

I am not discrediting your comment as I know there are limits with a 3ft tank, but these tanks appears to be similar in size to my tank and these discus look healthy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT1KHzzF67k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCfRwO6h4j0

[JL15219]

Depends on what your goal is:

Do you want to grow out young/ juvenile discus? Feed a lot and do a lot of water changes will get them to grow out to their potential. Lots easier with a bare bottom tank.

Do you want the discus to breed? Easier with a bare bottom tank.

Do you want to get some adults for a display/ show tank? Substrate is okay here, just be diligent and keep it clean.

Also to note, dark backgrounds and dark substrates will make a discus darken up or (if they are pigeon blood based), possibly show peppering.



Walter
+1 Barebottom is way easier to clean I converted my 60gal planted tank to a BB and it is stays a lot cleaner before when I would clean out my prefilter which I do everyday the water would come out very dark now when I clean it the water is fairly clean looking......

[RodneyL001]

I agree with the previous replys, it depends on what your ultimate goal is. No doubt, bare bottom would give you the best option to get optimum water quality, and probably lower maintenence. I, on the other hand, have always prefered substrate. I think if you want a show tank, you would proably get more enjoyment with having some kind of aquascape with live plants or even silk plants in your tank. Although it is much more work, for my taste, doing some involved aquascaping is "the cats meow," with keeping discus.

[mjs020294]

I currently have a 40 gallon breeder (36"X18"X16") and am looking into possibly acquiring discus.

You need a new tank before you think about Discus. Groups of six or more are desirable, so a 60g is the absolute minimum you should be considering.

I would start with 6 or 7 juveniles in you 40g and grow them out for a few months. Have a 75g-90g tank ready to move them to when they get over 4.5 inches.

[DerekFF]

I think your problem is the size of that tank. Unless it's a growout tank only and you'll be moving to a bigger tank, the 40g is not ideal.

+1 40gal is a tad small for an end result tank. More of an interim tank.

[limpert]

I do not need suggestions for new equipment because if I cannot make it happen with what i currently own than i would rather not go down that road.

I guess that's the answer, no discus for me... I could have sworn that I've seen it work with a 40 gallon breeder on youtube
:fried:

[waters10]

I guess that's the answer, no discus for me... I could have sworn that I've seen it work with a 40 gallon breeder on youtube
:fried:
One thing, I just calculated your volume and a 40g breeder is actually 44.8 gallons. Per the 10g/fish rule, you could get 5 discus there, which is the bare minimum for a group of discus. Also, the tank is 16" high and discus prefer taller tanks.

I think it's less than ideal and I still would look into a bigger tank. If you're dead set in doing this, certainly don't go with substrate!

[limpert]

...you could get 5 discus there, which is the bare minimum for a group of discus...

Are some strains smaller than others?

I assume that this wouldn't be the best idea but i figured i would ask. What would be the remedy of keeping a single discus with a small group of angelfish? :juggle:
(pardon my ignorance)

[Jason K.]

Are some strains smaller than others?

I assume that this wouldn't be the best idea but i figured i would ask. What would be the remedy of keeping a single discus with a small group of angelfish? :juggle:
(pardon my ignorance)

no, discus need to be in groups of their own kind to establish an order. the you tube videos are of juviniles growing out in the first, and the second is definatly not a 40 breeder.

[Frankr409]

Bare Bottom Vs Substrate... which one am I looking for?

I currently have a 40 gallon breeder (36"X18"X16") and am looking into possibly acquiring discus. I own a Marineland Pengiun 330 HOB filter which also has baskets in the rear of the filter for biological filtration. I have a heater which has worked for me for years as well as an air pump. I actually have 2 of these filters, but using both seems to make the water current too strong.

Right now I have 6 angelfish of all shapes and sizes with some other various community fish. I do 1/3 water change once a week and these fish have grown well and are very healthy. If i bought discus I would most likely trade in most of the fish i currently have.

I have heard arguments for and against substrate. I am looking for the lower maintenance alternative so i assume that bare bottom is the way to go-- with frequent water changes. At the same time i have heard that the substrate makes for a good means of biological filtration.

I do not need suggestions for new equipment because if I cannot make it happen with what i currently own than i would rather not go down that road.

Attached is a few pics of my tank when it was used temporarily for one of my african cichlids (venustus).

In the real world, they live with a substrate, and plants as well. I would tend to avoid sand, but athestically speaking, you can keep discus, plants, and substrate at the same time and keep healthy fish. I know that I have.

Lot's of blah, blah blah and lady gaga about grow out tanks and bare bottom etc. Not sure how much of that is valid either. I only know that it looks much more please to see discus in a natural looking environment. I can't help but feel that discus feel safer in such an environment instead of a bare bottom feeding machine.

In my tank I use a continuous water change system with R/O. 85% of the water is changed per week. I employ a large Eheim 2078 filter and UV as well.

[waters10]

Lot's of blah, blah blah and lady gaga about grow out tanks and bare bottom etc. Not sure how much of that is valid either. I only know that it looks much more please to see discus in a natural looking environment. I can't help but feel that discus feel safer in such an environment instead of a bare bottom feeding machine.
wow. A lot of people that don't like bare bottom tanks lately. You can challenge the aesthetics, but not the results. It's a proven method.

[limpert]

In the real world, they live with a substrate, and plants as well.

Frank makes a good point... It seems like so much care and consideration goes into keeping these fish, are they really that sensitive?

Have you guys ever suffered losses? :vanish:

[waters10]

Frank makes a good point... It seems like so much care and consideration goes into keeping these fish, are they really that sensitive?

Have you guys ever suffered losses? :vanish:
I think it's hardly a good point. He points 2 things that exists in nature. But there's a lot more than that. For starters there's a lot more than 10 gallons of water per fish, and that water is constantly being renovated as the river flows.

If we have suffered losses? Let's put it this way. Besides the "general discus discussion" section, the "Disease/Sickness and Medication" is the section that has the most posts on this forum. ;)

[Frankr409]

[QUOTE=waters10;637123]I think it's hardly a good point. He points 2 things that exists in nature. But there's a lot more than that.QUOTE]

No offense intended to the folks that keep their fish in a BB tank, and I also offer that there is more to Discus keeping than a tank a sponge filter and a water hose.

My choice to invest thousands in R/O units, CE & PH meters, UVs, Eheims, CO2 equipment, Heaters, Dosing equipment, Chemistry tests, etc also brings results. I would guess that anyone smart enough to make plants and discus thrive in the same environment is probably intelligent enough to keep the water parameters where they need to be for Discus.

I think the Original poster of this thread can rest assured that fish keeping is like a house with many rooms. There are many tastes, from BB tanks to aesthetically pleasing, and well maintained biotopes, it's all about your tastes. Just do your homework, and understand when you add additional variables like substrate and plants, that you understand the demands that will follow.

[Eddie]

40 gallon breeder is too small for anything except the fish. No substrate or ornamentation including plants.

[waters10]

[QUOTE=waters10;637123]I think it's hardly a good point. He points 2 things that exists in nature. But there's a lot more than that.QUOTE]

No offense intended to the folks that keep their fish in a BB tank, and I also offer that there is more to Discus keeping than a tank a sponge filter and a water hose.

My choice to invest thousands in R/O units, CE & PH meters, UVs, Eheims, CO2 equipment, Heaters, Dosing equipment, Chemistry tests, etc also brings results. I would guess that anyone smart enough to make plants and discus thrive in the same environment is probably intelligent enough to keep the water parameters where they need to be for Discus.

I think the Original poster of this thread can rest assured that fish keeping is like a house with many rooms. There are many tastes, from BB tanks to aesthetically pleasing, and well maintained biotopes, it's all about your tastes. Just do your homework, and understand when you add additional variables like substrate and plants, that you understand the demands that will follow.
There are multiple ways to get results, yes. But when you say "Not sure how much of that is valid either", to me it's like you're doubting the most popular and proven method of raising discus. I've been in too many discussions about this lately. I agree that there methods available around for all tastes, just do your homework like you said.

[Frankr409]

[QUOTE=Frankr409;637167]
There are multiple ways to get results, yes. But when you say "Not sure how much of that is valid either", to me it's like you're doubting the most popular and proven method of raising discus. I've been in too many discussions about this lately. I agree that there methods available around for all tastes, just do your homework like you said.

I should clarify that comment I suppose. I do not question that removing the variables from the tank like substrate, additional organic material, plants, statues of Neptune etc, simplifies Discus keeping somewhat. As you said, it is a proven method.

I question whether the fish themself incur additional stress because of the absence of, for lack of a better word "Surroundings".

Perhaps the fish are fine with it and it is the human eye that needs the extra asthetics!

[waters10]

I should clarify that comment I suppose. I do not question that removing the variables from the tank like substrate, additional organic material, plants, statues of Neptune etc, simplifies Discus keeping somewhat. As you said, it is a proven method.

I question whether the fish themself incur additional stress because of the absence of, for lack of a better word "Surroundings".

Perhaps the fish are fine with it and it is the human eye that needs the extra asthetics!
It's hard to argue against results. Maybe there is additional stress, but I doubt that leads to major problems like disease and death, otherwise we would hear more here. Can't argue that this is the most used method here. And any stress from that pales compared to stress related to water quality, due to a mismanaged gravel/planted tank.

By the way, my tanks were never completely bare bottom. I always had at least medium/big pieces of driftwood and then later plants attached to the wood. So I feel like I'm defending the very method that I refuse to use! But like I said, it's hard to argue against results.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

I don't mean to impose, but I think this thread has been a bit confusing considering what I have been learning lately. Isn't the main difference between BB and substrate/plants/ornaments just a cleanliness factor? And how much time you're willing to put into cleaning an aesthetically pleasing tank? It's no doubt that BB is easier to clean, I have both types set up, and the fish seem fine in both. But I don't see why people have to argue over which of their own preferences is better :)

[RodneyL001]

Compared to other types of fish discus are a little more sensitive. If you are new to fish husbandry, I wouldn't start out with discus. I would get all the basics down first. If you have some experience keeping fish, you will enjoy keeping discus. Just keep it simple, if you are fortunate enough to have some decent tap water, you will be well ahead of the game. The only thing I do to my water is to dechlorinate it, and add something called discus essentials. I keep live plants so I also add plant supplements. You will probably need to do water changes at least twice a week, or maybe more, depending on your feeding habits and filtration. Kitykatfunkiehat, I don't think this disagreement is an argument, it is just the type of thing people disagree over on sites like this. I think it is all good natured, we all have our points of view, and we are just expounding those views so people can make up there mind on what fits there circumstance better. As I said in a previous post, if my main concern is to be a breeder, I would probably keep bare bottom tanks, but I am much more into creating a pleasant and natural environment for show.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Well said Rodney!

[waters10]

Well said Rodney!
To add to what Rodney said, it's not necessarily defending our own preferences as better in absolute terms. Since this is the beginners forum, I see the discussions as means to achieve an end, which is painting the whole picture so beginners can choose what's better for them! Sometimes, only some aspects are covered by some people, so discussions starts. But it's good, cause then more aspects are covered. It's a good way to make sure OP's are as informed as possible to pick their own preference.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Yeah, I understand that! It just seems like you guys go at eachother's necks over preferences sometimes! lol. But I do see the need for it I suppose...beginners do need to know every little detail before investing!!

[Eddie]

Yeah, I understand that! It just seems like you guys go at eachother's necks over preferences sometimes! lol. But I do see the need for it I suppose...beginners do need to know every little detail before investing!!

LOL, if you really want to see a fight...ask about water changes! :D

[waters10]

LOL, if you really want to see a fight...ask about water changes! :D
Exactly!

kitykatfunkiehat, can you believe there are some crazies that change 100% (not 2x 50%) of the water every day?? :D

[Darrell Ward]

It's foolish for a beginner to have a complicated discus setup. Bottom line. If you're experienced, set up what up you like. An experienced keeper can look at the fish and detect even a minor problem. A beginner to discus will likely not detect the same problem until it escalates into a life threatening situation for the fish. For this reason, the beginner should keep things as simple as possible. Follow the decades old K.I.S.S. method. (Keep it simple stupid!) Get a tank, heater, hang on the back or sponge filters, some driftwood, and go learn. When you've got the basics down, and learned enough to spot early problems, go set up that complicated tank, planted tank, or whatever you desire. You will hopefully have enough knowledge to prevent disasters from happening. Anything else will almost guarantee a beginning discus keeper problems.

[Eddie]

I'd actually skip the driftwood

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Waters, you can call me Jenna! It may be easier to type than kitykatfunkiehat :)
I do believe that though!! I've seen some posts about it. I just did a 100% on my 20 gallon today for the first time and I was a bit stressed out! Not a fan..I'll tell ya that much!

Eddie, why skip the driftwood?

[waters10]

Waters, you can call me Jenna! It may be easier to type than kitykatfunkiehat :)
I do believe that though!! I've seen some posts about it. I just did a 100% on my 20 gallon today for the first time and I was a bit stressed out! Not a fan..I'll tell ya that much!

Eddie, why skip the driftwood?
ok, Jenna. I was just poking Eddie ... He's the one that does it! :D

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Hey...all power to him if he has the time and puts in the effort!

(HEY PS!! You live in MI too!?)

[Eddie]

Waters, you can call me Jenna! It may be easier to type than kitykatfunkiehat :)
I do believe that though!! I've seen some posts about it. I just did a 100% on my 20 gallon today for the first time and I was a bit stressed out! Not a fan..I'll tell ya that much!

Eddie, why skip the driftwood?

It will collect food and fungus, take up space for water. :D

Eddie

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Ooo. I thought maybe there was a more complex reason. But that makes sense, I am currently hitting my forehead and saying "DOH!"...homer simpson style

[waters10]

Hey...all power to him if he has the time and puts in the effort!

(HEY PS!! You live in MI too!?)

Oh yeah! I didn't mean that in a disapproving way! His fish certainly don't mind and his tanks are spotless. When you're felling lazy, look at his pictures. That'll put you in the mood to do some water changes! :D

Yeah, I'm in Michigan, working on the auto industry. For now, at least! :)

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Oh no I know you didn't mean it that way! s'all good. I'm in Troy, but going to school!

OP-sorry for the threadjacking.

[Darrell Ward]

It will collect food and fungus, take up space for water. :D

Eddie

It's no big deal if you rinse it during water changes to keep it clean. I suggested it because of the sense of security it gives to small discus, and it helps to decorate the tank a little for people who freak out about a bb tank. :)

[limpert]

It will collect food and fungus, take up space for water. :D

Eddie

Is some algae not good for biological filtration?

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Nah algae is harmless. It just looks awful. I don't believe it has any effect on anything.

[mjs020294]

I have had Discus in a 90g community tank for three months. Its well planted and the water parameters have remained very stable (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5-10). I have good filtration and the out take pipes are positioned carefully to maximize natural flow.

I decided to give the substrate a vacuum today, the first time in three months. The plan was to do a 40g WC whilst removing any dirt from the substrate. After a couple of gallons I quit because there was absolutely no dirt in the substrate.

I guess my filtration, bottom cleaners, shrimp and plants are doing a pretty good job.

[limpert]

I have found a local breeder that sells 1 inch discus fry. Any thoughts on purchasing discus at this size?

[mjs020294]

I have found a local breeder that sells 1 inch discus fry. Any thoughts on purchasing discus at this size?

Don't.

[RodneyL001]

I agree with mjs . . ., unless you are very experienced at keeping discus, you might want to get some that are a little more mature.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

It's a lot of work if you get them that small, especially if you want to grow them to their full size!

[limpert]

Don't use carbon in the filter (this can lead to disease in discus).


I noticed the statement about discus and carbon in this article: http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/discus_husbandry/discus_basics/discus_4beginner.shtml

What about carbon causes disease?