Tank size choices

[2wheelsx2]

I'm still pondering whether I can do a discus tank in my living room in one corner. I currently have 3 tanks: 125 SA/CA planted tank, 20 gallon planted tank, and 15 gallon planted tank.

I am going to be replacing the 20 gallon in my living room with a tank which I m contemplating discus with small plecos (L134 or L260). The 20 gallon is in a corner which has space for a 3'x3' cube max. Having said that, I don't want the tank jutting out from the corner too much, so the max would be a 30x30" footprint I think.

So the choices I am contemplating are:

24" cube - I think this one is a bit too small for discus, so if I went this route, I'd only use it as a growout to eventually put into my 125 after I sell the other cichlids (Chocolate cichlid, 1 JD and 2 EBJD's).

30x30x18 cube

30x30x24 cube

And my least favourite choice: 50 gallon rectangular 36x18x18 This is the cheapest option as a nice used one can be had for just over a dollar a gallon locally.

Am I doomed to failure? Or can this work? Keep in mind that I've never had discus, but I've kept fish for 20+ years and currently 2 of the tanks are high tech CO2 injected tanks (including the 125) so I'm no stranger to high maintenance and big water changes.

If the consensus is that I can't do it, then so be it, it won't make me sad, but at least I can say I've scratched that itch and wait until I can clear out the 125 for discus.

[Jhhnn]

The 50 would definitely work for half a dozen mid sized juvies in the 3"-4" range, at least for awhile... You'll need to change a lot of water while feeding them heavily if you want them to grow to their full potential... with a strong enough maintenance regimen, they could even be reared to adulthood in the 50...

Proper growth in young discus seems to require very heavy feeding, much more so than the vast majority of other fish, and they require very clean water at the same time. It's almost a contradiction in terms. They're easily stunted, and it's hard to tell if they are w/o experience.

Or just part with the cichlids you have now, order half a dozen of the gorgeous young adult leopards currently being offered by Kenny's Discus... or any of the larger fish he's currently offering, for that matter. Straight to the 125- you know you want 'em...

I won't offer that keeping discus is cheap, at all, but I will offer that it's a place where "Go big or stay home" seems to apply... If you're not willing to invest a fair amount of time, effort, money and ingenuity, then it's probably best to stay away.

Or maybe I'm just feeling particularly old and crotchety this evening... hard to tell when you're old and crotchety, anyway...

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks for the input. It's not the money or the time. It's the space. With what I have invested in plecos in the 125 currently, I can buy 3 or 4 pairs of nice proven (well at least 2 pair) adult discus. But that tank is my pleco tank first and cichlid tank second, AND it's heavily planted and CO2 injected, so I'm afraid that I'll run into the same problem with juvies there. That's why I was thinking a growout in the smaller tank and then into the 125 as adults. For reference, this is the 125:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/S9I-Pg-QPXI/AAAAAAAABvY/K0aq8538kZQ/s800/DSC_1764.JPG

Also, I have two EBJD's which are every bit as valuable (maybe not as desirable, but cost wise) as juvie discus:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/S7782cLU-eI/AAAAAAAABpg/AJs0vk_CtsM/s800/DSC_1702.JPG

[2wheelsx2]

And as for old and crotchety, I'm halfway to the first and certainly well into the second. :D

My question is not how much I need to invest to get into discus, but rather, whether I can do it with the space I currently have available. If the answer is absolutely not, don't do it because the fish would all suffer, I would hate it, etc. then I just won't do it until I can create the space.

After all, I can certainly turn that 30x30 cube into a pretty nice reef tank (just to give you an idea of the $ I am willing to commit to this). :p

[Jhhnn]

And as for old and crotchety, I'm halfway to the first and certainly well into the second. :D

My question is not how much I need to invest to get into discus, but rather, whether I can do it with the space I currently have available. If the answer is absolutely not, don't do it because the fish would all suffer, I would hate it, etc. then I just won't do it until I can create the space.

After all, I can certainly turn that 30x30 cube into a pretty nice reef tank (just to give you an idea of the $ I am willing to commit to this). :p

Very nice planted tank. My own discus tanks are not ornamental, other than the fish themselves, and discus are the only fish I'm keeping, ATM. A few members are apparently entirely successful raising Juvies in planted tanks- Chad Hughes (avionics30) definitely is, using very high tech methods.

A 30x30x17 tank is 70 gals, and a 30x30x25 is 100gals- plenty of room in either to observe the 10gal/fish rule while having a school big enough to be harmonious... pricey, however. Tanks are the one place I try to save money, myself... new tanks depreciate faster than new cars...

Good luck with your venture- let us know how it works out.

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad to hear I can do it with the cubes. So do you think as a beginner that I should get some cheaper (not low quality, just not the more desirable strains) to "get my feet wet" so to speak? Or should I just start with high quality juvies in the cube? If I went with juvies I would start bare bottom, but if I went with adults I would go for a biotope setup with wood and rocks (and maybe a few emergent plants on the wood).

And yes, I've gone through Chad Hughes' thread and although I'm a gadget geek, I'm too much of a discus n00b to contemplate something so complicated and possibly prone to failure. I'd rather go the tried and true BB method to raise the juvies if I'm going with juvies.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Do it with the cubes! And pick out the discus you like, not the ones that are "cheap" so to speak. They live a long time and if you're successful you want to enjoy the ones you bought :D

[2wheelsx2]

Do it with the cubes! And pick out the discus you like, not the ones that are "cheap" so to speak. They live a long time and if you're successful you want to enjoy the ones you bought :D

Thanks Jenna. I'm pretty much set on the 30x30x24 now I think. I guess I should have used different words. I meant "more common" meaning possibly hardier. After all, I think in the initial startup, the fish is probably going to be cheaper than the tank and all the gear going in it. :D I'm hoping to go with 4 - 6 nice fish that my family and I can enjoy for a long time.

[Jhhnn]

Discus do best in groups of at least 5 because of the social interactions. The tank you're contemplating would easily support 8.

I kept discus twice before, ~1977 and again ~1990, but not with the success I've enjoyed over the last year after discovering this forum. I attribute that success to following the solid conservative advice I found here. Good stock. Good equipment. Bare bottom tanks. Lots of food, and lots of water changes. So far, so good.

My personal tastes run to classic turqs and snakeskins, and to keeping a single variety in a given aquarium, preferably siblings. It just seems easier and more pleasing to the eye. Pics here-

http://s908.photobucket.com/albums/ac286/Jhhnn/fish/

My favorites are still the original group of Blue Scorps received from Kenny's March '09 shipment. There's enough variation between them to make each one easily identifiable yet enough sameness to make it clear they're all the same variety.

I also have the pictured group of leopards, with which I'm not terribly pleased- I don't think they received really good care before coming to me...

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks for the link John. I have a personal weakness for blues, and was really lured to discus by the Blue Scorpions....so your pics just made my itch worse. :D I also particularly like this group of yours, but am not sure what they are (Snakeskin)? Hope you don't mind me inserting the pic right in my post.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac286/Jhhnn/fish/106-0621_IMG.jpg

I also really like the wilds, especially the Heckels, but it became quickly obvious to me Heckels are out of bounds for me, but maybe not some of the wild greens.

What do you guys think of starting with wild adults vs juvie domestics? Or is that way too ambitious?

One last question is whether the depth, besides the water volume, makes a huge difference for discus. For instance, for the 2 cubes that I am thinking, for a group of 5 discus, 30x30" footprint, I can choose to have an 18" high or a 24" high tank. I know the 24" high will display a bit better, but in terms of maintenance, that's an extra 25 gallons of water, meaning another 15 gallons or so to change if I'm doing 60% water change several times a week.

[Apistomaster]

I know you want to keep some of the smaller, attractive plecos species but I have accumulated a growing body of experience which is pointing in the direction that these plecos should not be fed beef heart blend very often which happens to be an excellent food for getting rapid growth rates with juvenile Discus.
These Peckoltia and Hypancistrus species should not be fed more than once a week with beef heart,
Beef heart is not an essential food to grow out perfectly fine discus from juveniles so the plecos and Discus may be kept together well because they are both warm water fish with similar water chemistry tolerance ranges but I thought I should mention this food problem as it may have some bearing on what you intend to use to raise or maintain your Discus on and the welfare of these expensive plecos.
I just had a fresh and final experience trying to keep L333 and L134 with young F1 Blue Discus and I fished out one dead one of each species from the tank which has been getting several feedings of my beef heart blend a day. I otherwise never find a dead pleco in my tanks and a friend has suffered the loss of 3 L134 he was keeping with Discus receiving daily feedings of beef heart. Apparently heart is not something even these carnivorous plecos find indigestible.
I think this is something we need to be aware of since otherwise they make such good tank mates. feed all the frozen blood worms you want and there won't be any problems but keep beef heart away from your expensive plecos or use it in great moderation.

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks Larry, for your continued advice on PC and here.

I hadn't planned on feeding beefheart (I know, I know everyone advises here). I might feed some beefheart flakes once in a while, but plan on mostly Live Blackworm, earthworm sticks and NLS as staples in the diet. I have a steady local supplier of CBW here, and of course, already have lots of Hikari FBW for my meat eaters, so it shouldn't be a problem. But thanks for pointing that out so I don't make that mistake and kill off some prized plecos.

[Jhhnn]

Those are a cross between a red snakeskin and an altum flora, which is a high bodied turq. Mine express the snakeskin color pattern, other in the same brood express the turq pattern. They're from Forrest discus of Malaysia via Kenny's Discus. They're quite robust. I suspect that Forrest made that cross to breed the offspring back to his red snakeskin line, obtain fish with a higher body shape. Pure conjecture on my part.

I'd encourage you to contact Kenny, talk it over, give him an idea of what you're looking for and when you'll be ready. He imports Forrest's fish regularly, and is a great guy to deal with- no regrets on my part, none whatsoever.

I'd encourage you to establish a water changing system before fish ever arrive, a way to make it as painless as possible under your own circumstances. Lots of ways to do that, depending. My own system is rather elaborate, described here-

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74240

I've since added a third barrel, and will shortly add another, as well. I'm sure some regard me as a water changing fanatic ( not quite eddie's equal) but I think there's real value in staying very much in the safe zone of water parameters. It definitely won't harm the fish.

So far as the tank size goes, water quality will be very similar in either, and is really more dependent on the # of fish and amount of food vs total water change volume than on a pure % of water changed. In either tank, changing, say, 40 gals 4 times a week will give very much the same water quality if the # of fish and amount of food were the same. Water parameters will just be a little steadier in the larger tank over time. A water quality chart would look like saw teeth in either case, with the average being only slightly better in the smaller tank. If not enough water is changed, then quality will deteriorate over time... That's hard to explain- I hope I made it understandable.

I'd encourage you to consider more than 5 fish. They really benefit from living in groups, and 5 is really what's considered to be the healthy minimum. Depending on how and if they pair up when mature, some pairs aren't really compatible with community life- they can become quite territorial and aggressive, forcing the removal of at least one of them. That's not universal, but from what I understand is quite possible. Just something to consider.

I haven't tried wilds, even though I'm very attracted to them. I figure they're probably more demanding than my limited experience can handle atm. I am watching with some great interest for some first generation offspring from Dale Jordan, for example, or another experienced Simply member to have some available for shipping in the not too distant future...

[2wheelsx2]

Nice system. Too bad the link to the pics just point to an empty, but I've read of similar systems and plan to do one when I have a fish room in the basement. I currently run a Jehmco supersafety siphon with with a pump through a garden hose for my water changes in the 125 and refill with the same hose from the laundry sink. The problem is this new cube is in the living room upstairs so it won't work as well. I'll likely set up a watering barrel outside and drain into it for my water change with the same setup, but it has to be portable, as I have big reno plans for the basement so I can't setup such a system yet. I do understand the utility of such a system though. One thought I had was to run the 70 gallon cube with a 30 gallon sump, which would still give me the 100 gallons. The would make the water changes easier as I could plumb a T into the return with a garden hose fitting to drain. Either that or I would run a T out of a canister filter to pump the water out. Hmmm....just thought of that now...have to draw it out.

Thanks for the advice about Kenny, but we have a local supplier, April Ross, who brings in Forrest's fish (just had an April shipment), so I'm pretty set there if I got that route.

I guess I'll revisit the number of discus and maybe up it to 8. Just gotta keep up with the water changes, which should be ok given that I currently change over 100 gallons a week in 3 tanks already. When I do the cube, I am thinking I'll only have 2 tanks and the cube won't be planted, so it'll actually be less work, which will make the wife acceptance factor higher. :p

[Jhhnn]

Meh. My photobucket account has been wonky- try this for the pics-

http://s908.photobucket.com/albums/ac286/Jhhnn/water%20changing%20system/

I apologize for not noting your locale... April, Kenny and Forrest seem to have an arrangement, a good one, and I'm sure she'll do you right.

That's supposition on my part- I wouldn't presume to speak for any of them...

Good luck with it all, and keep us posted, please.

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks for the pics John. That's an awesome system. Even cutting holes in the wall. I don't plant to do that, but since I have an old house with old fresh air intakes and all, I could run the drain pipe down those when I'm ready.

And April appears to have a good relationship there. She's pretty much the discus queen up here. :D

Thanks for all the help. I will certainly post up with updates when I set the tank up, if everything goes according to plan.

[2wheelsx2]

I forgot that I had posted up this thread asking for advice. Anyway, the tank is finally on the stand in my living room, after a number of obstacles like the first builder backing out on the build, lots of work travel, decisions on how to filter it, and then getting a very specific custom stand built by a friend. I am test fitting the plumbing this week, and then will be adding water to get things going. Then I will swap out the bio from an existing tank to get the instant cycle going and then I'll have a few fish from my other tanks in there (plecos and tetras) while I decide what to do with the stocking. I'll have a 20 gallon set up to be able to quarantine new discus. And yes I decided on a black background, but will have white quartz sand as a substrate. Here are some pics when I first got the tank and then this weekend on the stand.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TG9OeuMQMxI/AAAAAAAACQ0/4H95fUcrvWs/s800/DSC_2275.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TH3XEp-yxQI/AAAAAAAACSg/tOPGdAt2A6Y/s800/DSC_2324.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TJ7G_Xmj57I/AAAAAAAACXE/6Hsi07zRS7Y/s800/DSC_2375.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TJ7G_vFD5HI/AAAAAAAACXI/w2taygt4ewg/s800/DSC_2376.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TMzyDZMM7II/AAAAAAAACao/xyG_xkEOEJQ/s800/DSC_2419.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TPGb9Iedo_I/AAAAAAAACew/aSpu9KwEMGo/s800/DSC_2474.JPG

Decided to throw in a few extra pics of the equipment and the wood that will be going in the tank.

[2wheelsx2]

Tank is pretty done except the lighting and canopy. Last update until I get it finished and put some discus in it.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_92IVadGjH2w/TQWgrWNqKMI/AAAAAAAACjs/fBMDKkKdddQ/s800/DSC_2510.JPG

[Jennie]

Looks great! what strain??

[2wheelsx2]

Trying to get some wilds I think.

[Jennie]

That would look fantastic!

[Eddie]

Nice tank!

[2wheelsx2]

Thanks, I'm hoping to get a dimly lit biotope type setup here.