Finally an introduction, and a slew of questions (long read)

[kleankord]

Hello, DFW member here. I lurked for a month, joined and didn't post for another month, and finally decided to ask some questions. As a quick side note, I went to the NADA convention; once I came during the dinner, so it was closed to the public, and when I came back again, was to try and snag some juvies at the auction, but was repeatedly outbid. (just didn't have to cash at the time)

Right now I have a 4 tanks running: one 20L turtle tank that will eventually have to be upgraded, two 20s (a qt, and an extra set aside for breeding or whatever else might come my way), and one 75 gal community planted - my experimental tank which is always going through changes.

I'm relatively new to fish, having just started keeping earlier this year, and having kept fish for 3.5 years.

I'll start going into what i have planned. The 75 gal planted is destined for discus eventually, and I'll need some advice on who can stay and who needs to go. Current inhabitants: 10+ cardinals, ABN breeding pair, 7-8 clown loaches, 3 angels of varying ages, 5 corys (green & panda). Also want to add the tank is well lit with an upgraded light on the way, pressurized co2, and occasionally fertilized. I was hoping the CLs would not have to go, but I know I can make at least my money back if I have to sell them. The tank has a rena xp3 running it and I have an AC70 lying around that i could throw on there as well.. in fact I'm not opposed to buying another canister filter if that will help reduce the need for daily changes.

I've started getting into the practice of doing 30% twice a week and 50% once a week for a total of 3 per week... I'd like to keep it at that.

I'd like to raise them from juvies, but in a 20 gal. Is that unheard of? I've read 10 gal per adult, I'd eventually keep them in the 75, but can i grow them out in a 20? I'm not going BB in the 75. It's going through a lot of investment to make it a planted tank, and don't plan to go back. If growing out in a 20 is not an option, than i'll probably only be able to get a couple grown adults, instead of 6 juvies.

I plan to pick up young ones from a local hobbiest breeder, but if I have to go adults, I'm making the trip to Houston to visit Gulf Coast (a sponsor)

1) who needs to go?
2) will adding filtration reduce the need for daily changes?
3) can i grow out juvies in a 20 gal?
4) is my fertilization going to affect the discus in a negative way?

I tried to look up everything I needed to know before posting, and if you read through my entire post, I thank you and send you an e-cookie. PLEASE tell me I can grow out in a 20. PLEASE. haha

[Eddie]

Great to meet you and welcome to Simply. If you are new to keeping discus, you will get some pretty straight forward answers.

1) who needs to go?

Everyone and everything! Go barebottom and your gonna need this tank regardless of juveniles or adults. One day the fish will breed, thats what they do.

2) will adding filtration reduce the need for daily changes?

NEVER, this is not the route to take. Some advanced hobbyists do have some good set-ups that require less water changes but its not the easiest route. Check the disease section and you'll see the common denominator is infrequent water changes.

3) can i grow out juvies in a 20 gal?

No, not even. Maybe keep a few tiny fry in the tank but they'll need to be moved up quickly to keep them growing.

4) is my fertilization going to affect the discus in a negative way?

If you remove everything, you wont be fertilizing.

I am just giving you the best options for success. You can choose to go another route but you'll run into problems, trust me. ;)

[DerekFF]

Hey welcome to SD!
1) who needs to go?
In all honesty BB is the easiest way to go for cleaning, disease control and just all around raising of juvie fry. And in terms of fish, i think the angels will need to go for sure. The clown loaches will probly be to active for the discus and kinda stress them out. I tries the clown loaches, pictus cats-which were ok, and bala sharks with my discus. They all freak the discus out when they go on their kamakazi streaks across the tanks.

2) will adding filtration reduce the need for daily changes?
It can, but not by much. Ive tried many things against the advice of people here like Eddie and more often than not with less than desirable results. IMO daily isnt necessary with over filtration, but most here who dont do daily dont wait more than every other day.

3) can i grow out juvies in a 20 gal?
No, 20g is to small and 6 juvies will outgrow that bad boy probly in less than a month.

4) is my fertilization going to affect the discus in a negative way?
Eddie is right, take it all out and theres no need for ferts. However should you choose to go planted, the ferts can cause massive algae blooms of you dont control the fert levels and also can be hazardous to your fish at higher concentrations.

5. Also you said you started keep fish this last year, but have kept fish for the last 3.5 years........I dont get it........

6. Eddie carries the thunderbolts of Zeus and will smite you down should you not follow his instructions......jk but hes a wealth of knowledge as well as many others here and only offer you what they think will give you the best experience with discus.
__________________

[j_li8]

1) Most will say the clown loaches will need to go but i have no experience there. the cardinals may become snacks but if the angels haven't gotten to them already then they will probably be ok. Ive keep angels with discus before and they were fine. How big are the angels?

2) No. The more filtration you have the better. However, regardless of how much filtration you have, frequent water changes (WC) will always be the best option. Of course it depends on tank size, number of times you feed and stocking levels. Once you figure out those things you can adjust how much and how often you change your water.

3) Yes you can but only for a short period of time. Once they hit about 4 inches, they will definitely need to be transferred into a larger tank. The most I would ever consider in a 20H until they reach that size is 3 discus and that is pushing it. Anything more and their growth will be compromised. Having 3 in there will also require more large WC's, 60% or more, and daily.

4) I have no experience with discus in planted tanks but i know others on here have. I do know that because you are using CO2 that you will need to make sure you have sufficient aeration.

[DerekFF]

1) Most will say the clown loaches will need to go but i have no experience there.angels with discus before and they were fine. How big are the angels?

3) Yes you can but only for a short period of time. Once they hit about 4 inches, they will definitely need to be transferred into a larger tank. The most I would ever consider in a 20H until they reach that size is 3 discus and that is pushing it. Anything more and their growth will be compromised. Having 3 in there will also require more large WC's, 60% or more, and daily.


1. Angels can carry Hex without showing symptoms but hex can really give your discus a bad day. Could be a non issue with quarantine and treatment of ALL fish, but also angels are more aggressive and can cause some issues at feeding times.

3. If hes looking at getting 6 juvies I dont think theyll be ok in a 20g any bigger than 2inches. Itll be way crowded. 20g is pretty much for a breeding/dinky fry.

[j_li8]

If they are healthy then i dont see a problem. I do agree they are more aggressive eatters which is another reason why most dont keep the two together. I also agree that 6 in a 20 is no good which is why i said 3 max. at the same time keeping only 3 in a tank isnt a good idea either.

[kleankord]

Yep I've read over and over on the bb tank situation, but that's just not going to happen. The angels are Juvies themselves largest being maybe 2" and smallest being about the size of a quarter.

If they can't be in a planted tank then I guess it just wasnt meant to be. I wanted to grow them out in a bb 20 and transfer them over, but if that's not going to work ill probably have to go with adults off the bat. Otherwise, would a 30 tall work before transferring to the 75?

[April]

get a couple adults or 4 then..and throw them into the planted tank. but..sooner or later..issues will arise..due to stress..bioload..etc. i see alot who get pimples..oozing sores..etc..skinny..dark..
your still best to learn to keep discus before you get hightech planted with discus. theres a sticky in the planted section with graphs etc..but it comes down to which will suffer. the plants or the discus. i think you can get away with a planted in a huge tank like 200 gallon or so..lotsof room for the discus still and plants. and lots ofwcs.
20 is way too small. one per 10 gallons..but that doesnt mean you cankeep one in a 10 gallon. or 2 in a 20 gallon.
if you were to get discus..id start no smaller than 3 or 3.5 inch. better with 4 inch or 4.5 if you want to put them in that 75 gallon tank. angels cause problems with discus . out eat them..and cause internal issues. clowns harrass as lively at night. cardinals, rummynoses, sterbais, etc work. in a 75 with substrate and plants you wont have alot of room left for discus . id say 4 or 5 tops and maybe some small schooling fish. and a bushynoses perhaps.

[tcyiu]

I'm relatively new to fish, having just started keeping earlier this year, and having kept fish for 3.5 years.

PLEASE tell me I can grow out in a 20. PLEASE. haha

Sorry, I didn't understand - is your fishkeeping experience 6 months or 3.5 years?

If you are new to fish keeping in general, I would NOT recommend trying to grow out in a 20.

If you have a lot of experience, and a solid grasp of fish biology and are disciplined about maintenance, I'd say go for. [The crowd murmurs loudly. Amidst the growing din, a lone voice pronounces "Heretic!" The mob seizes on those syllables and the soon the hall thunders with condemnation .....]

LOL

However, if you do so and do so successfuly, don't expect show-quality adult fish. They will grow up to be normal size - just not optimal or huge.

Tim