SEACHEM DISCUS BUFFER

[morillonj]

since my ph is in the high 8's, i was thinking about using this?? anyone use this before?

[georgarask]

I think due to phosphates it contains it is dangerous for the fish... Of course Seachem says that is not affect them: http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/DiscusBuffer.html but I have read that is not good for our fish! :o
From my experience using this product ph is not stable and you have to be very careful if you use it!
You have to low your kh (it is a buffer for ph) ... Here in Greece we also have "hard" tap water and the only solution is reverse osmosis!

[Jennie]

No expert but I do use it in mine. It keeps my ph at 6.8. Otherwise my ph is high also. Because I've heard rapid ph swings are bad for discus I use 1/2 the recommended dose per day to lower my ph gradually till I reach my goal, then just monitor it

[Aquaben19]

Do not use chemical buffers if you do not have to. The Phosphates in Discus buffer will only help your algae if you have problems with that already.

Use Peat moss(untreated) if you really want to lower your pH and soften your water. I must ask though, why do you want your pH lower? A pH of 8 is fine for discus juvies and the hardness that usually goes along with it aids in growth, and bone structure.

[Jennie]

hey Ben, always looking for more knowledge on the discus. By chance do you remember the article of reading where you saw that ph/health

[morillonj]

so 8.6-8.8 is good?? in my pool ive tested it to be 9.0 plus at times. ive always had to put about 5 lbs. of dry acid every two weeks. would peat really help my aquarium? i want to find something to help lower my ph.

[flyman767]

Peat can definately help lower Ph, soften your water, as well as lower your total TDS. Personally, I use about 1.5 cups of concentrated peat in my 72G(half in filter/half under gravel) along with 2 medium pieces of driftwood...works well...Ray

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=24263

[Discus master]

Peat can definately help lower Ph, soften your water, as well as lower your total TDS. Personally, I use about 1.5 cups of concentrated peat in my 72G(half in filter/half under gravel) along with 2 medium pieces of driftwood...works well...Ray

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=24263

I just put natural drift wood in my tank nice size pice to and a couple of smaller ones what will this do for my water besides the tannis lower ph tds gh and kh?? and how long will the driftwood have an effect on this? as with peat it is only good for so long before it needs to be re placed is it the same way with drift wood? does the drift wood stop helping your water out say once the tannis stops leeching out? is it the tannins that help or somthing else in the wood? sorry for so mmany question but I too use a lowering bufer and would like to discountinue

[zamboniMan]

since my ph is in the high 8's, i was thinking about using this?? anyone use this before?

I use it and along with alkaline buffer to buffer my RO/DI water seems to work great. I usually mix it to the appropriate pH then add it about a day later. I have mostly planted tanks or tanks with potted plants in them so I haven't seen a problem with phosphates.

Peat works well though I find my tap water is too buffered for peat alone to lower pH/soften the water. Now that I've switched to straight RO/DI I have significantly less algae problems and I can control my pH/hardness much more easily.

Hope that helps,
Josh

[nc0gnet0]

Products like Seachem discus buffer and neutral stabilizer work much better with RODI water. Yes they can lower ph, but when your up against water with high KH as many of us are, it takes a bunch of the stuff and is rather cost prohibitive.

If your performing daily water changes driftwood is of little help to ower your PH......however it does look good! Peat moss is a bit better but still has the same issues, can't comment on the concentrated peat moss? Is this a liquid?


so 8.6-8.8 is good?? in my pool ive tested it to be 9.0 plus at times. ive always had to put about 5 lbs. of dry acid every two weeks. would peat really help my aquarium? i want to find something to help lower my ph.

I would first test your tap water after it set out for 24 hours. If your ph is still 9.0, that is indeed high and I would highly suggest a reverse Osmosis system rather than trying to treat with chemicals constantly. It would be more cost effective (the RO) and much more repeatable.

[flyman767]

I just put natural drift wood in my tank nice size pice to and a couple of smaller ones what will this do for my water besides the tannis lower ph tds gh and kh?? and how long will the driftwood have an effect on this? as with peat it is only good for so long before it needs to be re placed is it the same way with drift wood? does the drift wood stop helping your water out say once the tannis stops leeching out? is it the tannins that help or somthing else in the wood? sorry for so mmany question but I too use a lowering bufer and would like to discountinue

The combo of peat/driftwood can help lower your Ph; however, as nc0gnet0 pointed out, because we do so many water changes the tannis never really gets a foothold. If you have a high GH/Ph and your looking for a big shift in numbers..peat/driftwood is probably not going to help.

Having said all that..I found driftwood to last a long time(several months) before it looses it's effectiveness.

The 'Super Peat' that I use is a concentrated 'pellet form'. This seems to have more of a 'punch' than say driftwood, but does have a shorter useful life.
http://www.sera.de/index.php?id=1056&L=1

[morillonj]

so say if i put peat in my canister filter or aquaclear, and when i do a water change, do i just fill with tap water, then add dechlorinater and let the canister filter cycle it?? would that have a ph swing?

[Eddie]

I would first test your tap water after it set out for 24 hours. If your ph is still 9.0, that is indeed high and I would highly suggest a reverse Osmosis system rather than trying to treat with chemicals constantly. It would be more cost effective (the RO) and much more repeatable.


Ditto on this.



so say if i put peat in my canister filter or aquaclear, and when i do a water change, do i just fill with tap water, then add dechlorinater and let the canister filter cycle it?? would that have a ph swing?

Just a note, always add dechlor first, then fill.

Eddie

[morillonj]

i have no idea on how to bring my ph and alkalinity down. and i do not like african cichlids. what should i do?

[morillonj]

is it better to keep discus in a consistent ph with clean water? or should i just keep messing with the ph to bring it down?

[David Rose]

I'm a big fan of Seachem products, but in general don't recommend additives. Having pH higher than 8.0 myself, I opted to use an RO unit, but without it I would use Seachem's Acid Buffer because it does not have the phosphates that can promote algae growth. On the other hand, if you have a good maintenance routine that includes wiping down your tanks like most discus keepers, it shouldn't matter.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AcidBuffer.html

Hope this helps,
David

[flyman767]

Also, as David pointed out..if you have to bring your ph down Seachem Acid buffer is an excellent product. The only other thing I would recommend is using it conjunction with it's sister product 'Alkaline buffer'. The ratio of mix between the two will have to be tested with your sample water. However, the combo of the two will give you a 'true buffer'...Ray

[morillonj]

i really dont think discus would survive in my water. i just went to get it tested and the alkalinity is above 800 ppm with a ph of 9.4..its best if i do not get discus.

[flyman767]

i really don't think discus would survive in my water. i just went to get it tested and the alkalinity is above 800 ppm with a Ph of 9.4..its best if i do not get discus.

Hold on..I have similar water perimeters. I know every one wants to jump on a OP whenever someone mentions 'discus buffers' on why you should not use them; however, they do serve a purpose.

Personally, my local tap runs in the neighborhood of 9.5-10.0(12GH)..I use a 50% ro/tap combination along with careful measurements of Seachem non-phosphate Acid/Alkaline buffers. I always age my water for a minimum of 48 hours...followed up by a Ph test before pumping to my display tank. The Ph has always remained constant for as long as I could remember. However, you do need to follow protocol and be consistent each and every water change.

Please don't be discouraged that you can't raise discus due to your water conditions...if you really love these guys, like most of us do, consider it a challenge..good luck..Ray

[morillonj]

thanks ray. thats probably the best advice ive gotten on this website. i have a pet store around here called pet city that sells r/o water for .50 cents a gallon. maybe ill try it. i am going to hold off for a while until i get out of school in two months so i have more time for this hobby. maybe i can round up enough money for a small r/o unit. plus i want at least a 90 gallon long tank. tall tanks arent my thing. thanks for the advice about the seachem products to.

[flyman767]

thanks ray. thats probably the best advice ive gotten on this website. i have a pet store around here called pet city that sells r/o water for .50 cents a gallon. maybe ill try it. i am going to hold off for a while until i get out of school in two months so i have more time for this hobby. maybe i can round up enough money for a small r/o unit. plus i want at least a 90 gallon long tank. tall tanks arent my thing. thanks for the advice about the seachem products to.

Your welcome morillonj..feel free to PM me anytime..good luck

[Discus master]

Hold on..I have similar water perimeters. I know every one wants to jump on a OP whenever someone mentions 'discus buffers' on why you should not use them; however, they do serve a purpose.

Personally, my local tap runs in the neighborhood of 9.5-10.0(12GH)..I use a 50% ro/tap combination along with careful measurements of Seachem non-phosphate Acid/Alkaline buffers. I always age my water for a minimum of 48 hours...followed up by a Ph test before pumping to my display tank. The Ph has always remained constant for as long as I could remember. However, you do need to follow protocol and be consistent each and every water change.

Please don't be discouraged that you can't raise discus due to your water conditions...if you really love these guys, like most of us do, consider it a challenge..good luck..Ray

Yeah if the only problem is some alge I do not see that to big of a deal as I wipe the tank down once or twice a week anyways. I was using proper ph 6.5 and it worked well for me it has an agent in it to resist ph bounce and my ph never bounced out of te tap anyways even after aging and my gh and kh are low I have fairly soft water to begin with I mainly wanted to stop using the buffer because of the expense honestly I do 80% daily once I scale this back after they have grown out a bit more and my drift wood slows down on leeching tannins I could afford to go back to it but I more than likely wont as theya re doing fine in the 7.5ph that drops slightly to about 7.3 after 24 hrs no need for the buffer nor the aging for me. I did read thoguh that if the hardness is to high that it would have a hard time bringing the ph down and the use of a water pillow softner was sugested prior to its use. Well I have stoped using it for about a week now slowly bringing the tap up and adding less buffer untill now and as of the last few days has had nothing at all and now its just straigh tap water and my ph in the tank is about a 7.3 all the time I think the drift wood brings it down a little bit but wiht my dailt changes it does not really have enoguh time to do that. So I aree depending on the curcimstance I think the use of a uffer is fine as long as you do not get the ph bounce and the fish are healthy and they are in a stable condtion I see nothing wrong with its use I am using purigin now and I love it just sarted using it it seems to also help with the driftwood tannins.

[nc0gnet0]

I use RO water and always add some seachem neutral stabilizer along with tap water to the mix. Typically I add 1 teaspoon neutralizer to 5-10 gallons tap, mix, then add that to my ro water (50 gallons) and aerate for about 3 hours ( I have a massive air pump). I can't say I have anymore of an algea problem then if I were to use straight tap, and hey, its pleco food and they more than keep up.

It adds a little buffer to prevent against ph crashes, and helps to add consistency to my ever changing tap water. Algea is an estetic issue, and won't harm your discus in any way. Besides, proper tank maintenence includes wiping down the glass/acryllic.

[tdiscusman]

Yes, Don't use it if you don't have to. If you have to or want to be a water warrior :) then IMO, Discus buffer is a great product. (not recommend for planted tank off course)

My tap water has ph of 8.4 out of faucet, after 24 hours it went to 9.2. I don't know what my KH is, probably pretty high. I use discus buffer along with Muriatic acid (for cost effectiveness) to lower my ph.

I add some Muriatic acid to my tap water and aerate for 24 hours then just before w/c, I add Discus Buffer to the lower it further to my desired PH. Muriatic acid, will help knock out some of the Alkalinity so it does not take much Discus Buffer to lower it further (i use 1/2 the recommended dosage).

I've tried to lower ph with just Muriatic acid, however it's just too unstable. Phosphate based acid, like discus buffer, Ph tend to settle around ph of 6.5 (near its pKa value of 6.8) which is perfect.

HTH
Tony

[darbex]

From my experience. They will do fine in the high pH especially if you get domestic breads. I have tried the peat expirement and for me its just to much work having to replace it every month or so and it didnt lower my pH that much but I also have a 300+ gallon tank. I never tried buffers because you need to make sure that the new water is buffered to the same specification otherwise you may cause large swings that can kill the discus. In the end I just bought a used RO/DI and got a 135G tank thats in my garage. My pH went from 8.6 with a TDS of 276 to 6.0 and TDS of 4. Plus we use it for drinking water and what not.

[flyman767]

Yes, Don't use it if you don't have to. If you have to or want to be a water warrior :) then IMO, Discus buffer is a great product. (not recommend for planted tank off course)






The discus buffer I use from Seachem was designed for a planted tank. It is a non-phosphate alkaline/acid buffer. The only downside that I found is the non-phosphate buffers don't have the buffering 'capacity' as a phosphate based product.

However, with the combination of driftwood/peat in the tank.. along with the non-phosphate buffer...I've never had an issue with fluctuating ph. Hence..little or no algae.

[tdiscusman]

The discus buffer I use from Seachem was designed for a planted tank. It is a non-phosphate alkaline/acid buffer. The only downside that I found is the non-phosphate buffers don't have the buffering 'capacity' as a phosphate based product.

However, with the combination of driftwood/peat in the tank.. along with the non-phosphate buffer...I've never had an issue with fluctuating ph. Hence..little or no algae.

I believed Seachem Discus Buffer is phosphate base and Acid Buffer is non-phosphate based. I don't have any experience with using Acid Buffer.

from Seachem website:

Q: What is the difference between Neutral Regulator™, Discus Buffer™, Alkaline Buffer™, and Acid Buffer™?

A: Neutral Regulator™and Discus Buffer™are phosphate based buffers providing a very strong and stable buffering system. Alkaline Buffer™and Acid Buffer™are non-phosphate buffers, which although less stable than a phosphate buffer, are ideal for the planted aquarium where high phosphate levels would lead to an algae problem.
Thanks
Tony

[flyman767]

I believed Seachem Discus Buffer is phosphate base and Acid Buffer is non-phosphate based. I don't have any experience with using Acid Buffer.

from Seachem website:

Thanks
Tony

Seachem makes both a phosphate and a non-phosphate buffer(s).
The Discus buffer is a phosphate buffer. It is used in conjunction with the neutral regulator to give the user the desired 'buffer capacity'. Both are phosphate based..
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/DiscusBuffer.html

Seachem non-phosphate buffer(s) are an Alklaine and Acid product. These both are used together to give the user the desired 'buffer capacity'.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AcidBuffer.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AlkalineBuffer.html
Hope this helps...Ray

[tdiscusman]

Seachem makes both a phosphate and a non-phosphate buffer(s).
The Discus buffer is a phosphate buffer. It is used in conjunction with the neutral regulator to give the user the desired 'buffer capacity'. Both are phosphate based..
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/DiscusBuffer.html

Seachem non-phosphate buffer(s) are an Alklaine and Acid product. These both are used together to give the user the desired 'buffer capacity'.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AcidBuffer.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AlkalineBuffer.html
Hope this helps...Ray

Thanks Ray, I think i didn't explained very well, yes I'm aware that Seachem make both phosphate and non-phosphate based products. "Seachem Discus Buffer", as is stated in title of this thread, is phosphate based and the non-phosphate is called "Seachem Acid Buffer"

Tony

[Discus master]

I use RO water and always add some seachem neutral stabilizer along with tap water to the mix. Typically I add 1 teaspoon neutralizer to 5-10 gallons tap, mix, then add that to my ro water (50 gallons) and aerate for about 3 hours ( I have a massive air pump). I can't say I have anymore of an algea problem then if I were to use straight tap, and hey, its pleco food and they more than keep up.

It adds a little buffer to prevent against ph crashes, and helps to add consistency to my ever changing tap water. Algea is an estetic issue, and won't harm your discus in any way. Besides, proper tank maintenence includes wiping down the glass/acryllic.

You said it!

[Discus master]

Yes, Don't use it if you don't have to. If you have to or want to be a water warrior :) then IMO, Discus buffer is a great product. (not recommend for planted tank off course)

My tap water has ph of 8.4 out of faucet, after 24 hours it went to 9.2. I don't know what my KH is, probably pretty high. I use discus buffer along with Muriatic acid (for cost effectiveness) to lower my ph.

I add some Muriatic acid to my tap water and aerate for 24 hours then just before w/c, I add Discus Buffer to the lower it further to my desired PH. Muriatic acid, will help knock out some of the Alkalinity so it does not take much Discus Buffer to lower it further (i use 1/2 the recommended dosage).

I've tried to lower ph with just Muriatic acid, however it's just too unstable. Phosphate based acid, like discus buffer, Ph tend to settle around ph of 6.5 (near its pKa value of 6.8) which is perfect.

HTH
Tony

Yep all I ever had to add was half than the recomended dosage of one scoop pe 10 gallon I did more like one scoop per 20 gallon broight my ph down to around 6.8 and it was really steady but I have softwater and I have heard in harder water it is harder for the change to take place and for it to stay changed that it would bounce if the gh was to high or the TDS my gh low but not so low it will cause a ph crash and I used proper ph .5 a phophate based buffer that also resit the ph bounce so it actually made my tank more stabel. I justw ante to stop using it if I could as I wanted to save on cost. My discus are in water of around 7.3ph as my water out of the tap is about 7.5 and I do not age but have done this test enough times to know that it will only drp a littel bit so not a big swing in my opinoin. My question is why after the 24 hour test does some peoples ph go up while like mine it actually will go down a little bit anyways.

[Discus master]

From my experience. They will do fine in the high pH especially if you get domestic breads. I have tried the peat expirement and for me its just to much work having to replace it every month or so and it didnt lower my pH that much but I also have a 300+ gallon tank. I never tried buffers because you need to make sure that the new water is buffered to the same specification otherwise you may cause large swings that can kill the discus. In the end I just bought a used RO/DI and got a 135G tank thats in my garage. My pH went from 8.6 with a TDS of 276 to 6.0 and TDS of 4. Plus we use it for drinking water and what not.

But just like with the buffers you have to make sure you are using the rite ratio anyways so I do not see a diference you still have to be carfeull and mesure for ph when using RO dont you?

[nc0gnet0]

But just like with the buffers you have to make sure you are using the rite ratio anyways so I do not see a diference you still have to be carfeull and mesure for ph when using RO dont you?

Yes and no. At first, yes while you are still learning your RO to tap water mix and buffer and perhaps trace elements yes. It's a constant monitoring with a it of tweaking.

After awhile you will learn the correct "mix" and can back off on the monitoring a your confidence level builds. Myself, all I use now is a TDS meter as I know how my tds level correlates into PH.

[Discus master]

Yes and no. At first, yes while you are still learning your RO to tap water mix and buffer and perhaps trace elements yes. It's a constant monitoring with a it of tweaking.

After awhile you will learn the correct "mix" and can back off on the monitoring a your confidence level builds. Myself, all I use now is a TDS meter as I know how my tds level correlates into PH.

yeah me as well im at the point were i wuld not have to measure, but i do test the tap from time to time to make sure it hs not changed.

[illumnae]

Does Seachem Acid/Alkaline buffer affect the TDS of the water drastically?

[Discus master]

Does Seachem Acid/Alkaline buffer affect the TDS of the water drastically?

I do not believe so, if i remeber correctly from what I have read on the bottle it does not. It does say if the TDS are to high however it will have a harder time reaching and staying at the desired ph level. I could be wring with this so maybe some others more experinced with this product will answer as well, I am more use to using proper ph 6.5 and this is a phosphate based buffer.

[tdiscusman]

It will affect TDS, almost anything you add to water will raise TDS (total dissolved solid). However, it does not affect General Hardness (GH) which is a measure of Calcium and Magnesium. For breeding, GH need to be low, so adding Sechem Acid Buffer/Alkaline will not impact breeding water quality.

Tony

[Discus master]

It will affect TDS, almost anything you add to water will raise TDS (total dissolved solid). However, it does not affect General Hardness (GH) which is a measure of Calcium and Magnesium. For breeding, GH need to be low, so adding Sechem Acid Buffer/Alkaline will not impact breeding water quality.

Tony

Got it! thanks