red melons

[Jennie]

At what point should red in the body of the wf melons start to develop? I've got one thats 3.25 inches and still barely see any red in the body. The fins are deep red tipped by black.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/album.php?albumid=264&pictureid=1971

[DiscusKev]

Not an expert, but low quality reds don't exhibit the colour as well and/or male solid reds isn't as red as females, hence it could be you got all males?

They should develop more colours when they becomes adult, and knowing that they are that small, they still got some time. Any pictures?

[Jennie]

here is a photo which he is bigger now than in photo
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/album.php?albumid=264&pictureid=1971



Not an expert, but low quality reds don't exhibit the colour as well and/or male solid reds isn't as red as females, hence it could be you got all males?

They should develop more colours when they becomes adult, and knowing that they are that small, they still got some time. Any pictures?

[DiscusKev]

I would say it is a male, but I haven't kept any PB-based discus, but from what I have read on SD and DS, males tend to have a consistent colour throughout the body (single colour), so this could be a female.

IMO, the colours wouldn't cover the whole body when it is an adult, don't want to upset you but it doesn't seem like a desirable quality.

[Jennie]

I would say it is a male, but I haven't kept any PB-based discus, but from what I have read on SD and DS, males tend to have a consistent colour throughout the body (single colour), so this could be a female.

IMO, the colours wouldn't cover the whole body when it is an adult, don't want to upset you but it doesn't seem like a desirable quality.

I don't believe I can be further dissapointed, lol.

[Jennie]

at some point I need cruel honest opinions on others I have also. who stays who goes.

[Corona]

I am no discus expert. But, when I started keeping discus a few years ago, I bought two Red Melons that were about 2.5", their body color looked like a muted solid orange. As they got to about 3.5", some red color started to show, and their body was a mix of red and orange; they kind of stayed a mix of red and orange color to around 4.5" (that's when I gave them away to a LFS).

One time, when I went to a discus supplier, I saw that sometimes even a few juveniles in a batch will already have very intense colors (not the full body color yet; but, intense colors in areas of the body). One supplier had one Super Red Melon out of a batch that was already very red at 3" (that one was beautiful already at 3", I didn't buy that one, as I like to get at least 2 discus of the same kind).

Now, when I buy discus, I prefer the juveniles to already have a lot of color (I don't expect full body color yet; but, good color already showing).

[DiscusOnly]

I pulled a few of my old pic and put it together. It should give you an idea.

BTW.. this is a female that I am currently breeding.

Van

[DiscusKev]

wow Van, that RM is super round!

[Jennie]

I pulled a few of my old pic and put it together. It should give you an idea.

BTW.. this is a female that I am currently breeding.

Van

Van, I am not able to see the size measurments of those discus. what are the lsizes. never mind. fixed problem. I noticed some of your juvies have little color also. Mine is about 4 months i guess. Has color developed along ridge of back but barely in the center. I'll be patient and see what happens.

[Jennie]

I would say it is a male, but I haven't kept any PB-based discus, but from what I have read on SD and DS, males tend to have a consistent colour throughout the body (single colour), so this could be a female.

IMO, the colours wouldn't cover the whole body when it is an adult, don't want to upset you but it doesn't seem like a desirable quality.

this one stays out of the arguments in the tank, so I thought it was a female also, not that it really mattered.

[DiscusKev]

Van, I am not able to see the size measurments of those discus. what are the lsizes

Since Van is currently breeding her, I would guess it is +/- 5"

PS: Clicked on full size and read that it was from Dan.E, so I'm not surprised on why the shape is so good :D:p:)

[DiscusOnly]

Van, I am not able to see the size measurments of those discus. what are the lsizes. never mind. fixed problem. I noticed some of your juvies have little color also. Mine is about 4 months i guess. Has color developed along ridge of back but barely in the center. I'll be patient and see what happens.

I believe when I got her, she was about 2.25". The 2nd picture was when she was 3"+ The 3rd picture was when she was 4" or so. To me, it's not about the size but rather age is more important. I completely disagree with the other reply about making sure you get color discus when they get small discus.


Currently, she is about 5.5". The two pictures below was taken today. She is almost 3 years old now.

[DiscusOnly]

Van, I am not able to see the size measurments of those discus. what are the lsizes. never mind. fixed problem. I noticed some of your juvies have little color also. Mine is about 4 months i guess. Has color developed along ridge of back but barely in the center. I'll be patient and see what happens.

The juvie that I am selling is not from this female. It's from a pair that the father is a sibbling of this melon but he is a marlboro and is paired with a silver pigeon. These juvie are starting to develop color now and will take a few months. They are still very young even at 3"+

Let me search through another one of my thread. Discus could look a lot different once they reach 1 year old.

Van

[DiscusOnly]

Look at this post where my discus when from one transformation to another.

As of today, it's organge. A lot different then it was 2 years ago.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66182

[Jennie]

wow what a Dramatic transformation. Not what I expected.

[tdiscusman]

Discus can not produce red color naturally and must be color fed. since your discus is still young i would not worry about it. But if you like to put some red in your red melon try feed/add some red color enhancer like tetra color bits, Astaxanthin/natural rose, salmon, krill into your beef heart mix. IME and IMO with natural color enhancer, that i've mentioned, your discus will get red but it will not be as nice as other imports red melon, the color will not be as red or vibrant and it tend to turn the head area orange. in other word the color will bleed and you will not get good separation between the white/yellow face and red body.


Not an expert, but low quality reds don't exhibit the colour as well and/or male solid reds isn't as red as females, hence it could be you got all males?

They should develop more colours when they becomes adult, and knowing that they are that small, they still got some time. Any pictures?

IMO, the difference between high quality red and low quality red (pigeon based) is in the shape, lack of striations and the cleanliness: no pepper, clear white tail (breeders do this by out crossing with brown as described in Andrew Soh book). As for color it depends on red color enhancer that they used and the skills of the breeders to administer it (t's an art)

Tony

[Jennie]

tony what is your opinion of the shape of this fish. It is free of peppering but does sport the black tail and fin tips. Sporting a mustache as well but looks nice and round


Discus can not produce red color naturally and must be color fed. since your discus is still young i would not worry about it. But if you like to put some red in your red melon try feed/add some red color enhancer like tetra color bits, Astaxanthin/natural rose, salmon, krill into your beef heart mix. IME and IMO with natural color enhancer, that i've mentioned, your discus will get red but it will not be as nice as other imports red melon, the color will not be as red or vibrant and it tend to turn the head area orange. in other word the color will bleed and you will not get good separation between the white/yellow face and red body.



IMO, the difference between high quality red and low quality red (pigeon based) is in the shape, lack of striations and the cleanliness: no pepper, clear white tail (breeders do this by out crossing with brown as described in Andrew Soh book). As for color it depends on red color enhancer that they used and the skills of the breeders to administer it (t's an art)

Tony

[tdiscusman]

tony what is your opinion of the shape of this fish. It is free of peppering but does sport the black tail and fin tips. Sporting a mustache as well but looks nice and round

Hi DL65,
I can't really judge from that picture, and it's really not fair to the discus (side shot would nice) the angle of the picture make the fish look like it has big eyes.

Your discus is clean, just little pepper on the snout and forehead which is normal. no striation on gill plates or face so that is good. As for the black tail, most if not all red melon, have black tail and black rims around the fins. After cleaning up the black tail, fins and the pepper breeders would normally give it a new name and would not call it Red Melon.

HTH
Tony

[tdiscusman]

Discus can not produce red color naturally and must be color fed. since your discus is still young i would not worry about it. But if you like to put some red in your red melon try feed/add some red color enhancer like tetra color bits, Astaxanthin/natural rose, salmon, krill into your beef heart mix. IME and IMO with natural color enhancer, that i've mentioned, your discus will get red but it will not be as nice as other imports red melon, the color will not be as red or vibrant and it tend to turn the head area orange. in other word the color will bleed and you will not get good separation between the white/yellow face and red body.



IMO, the difference between high quality red and low quality red (pigeon based) is in the shape, lack of striations and the cleanliness: no pepper, clear white tail (breeders do this by out crossing with brown as described in Andrew Soh book). As for color it depends on red color enhancer that they used and the skills of the breeders to administer it (t's an art)

Tony

Just wanted to add: depending on the color enhancer breeders use, some enhancer color will fade in a few months and some enhancer color will stay and as the discus grow older the color will spread through out the body and become more red. That is why one of SD sponsor is recommending people who buy his red discus do not to feed color enhancer as it will messed the color up.

[DiscusKev]

I completely disagree with the other reply about making sure you get color discus when they get small discus.

I would personally say, selecting the best would include several important factors like shape, colour, and size. Therefore, if juveniles discus is already showing strong colours without colour enhancer, it could mean that when it is an adult, the colour would become stronger, same applies to shape and size.


As for color it depends on red color enhancer that they used and the skills of the breeders to administer it (t's an art)

I agree with the part about selective breeding...some breeders don't use colour enhancer and their reds are still so sharp, imo it is a matter of a varied diet, it is the one and only way to naturally 'pull' out the colour without colour enhancer. Off course, water quality will be included, but lets not get so indepth :D

[nc0gnet0]

Something as simple as a darker coor background could enhance the color of this fish. I have two identical red melons (at least they used to be). They were purchased by another simply member from Mike B. I removed one from a light background light substrate tank and placed it into a darker tank. The two fish that used to be twins are now worlds apart color wise. These fish are now nearing the 5-5.5 inch range.

[tdiscusman]

...
I agree with the part about selective breeding...some breeders don't use colour enhancer and their reds are still so sharp, imo it is a matter of a varied diet, it is the one and only way to naturally 'pull' out the colour without colour enhancer. Off course, water quality will be included, but lets not get so indepth :D

Discus do not have the gene for red, so there are no natural red to "pull out" they must be color feed. It's well known and accepted in discus competitions that red discus are color enhance (as long as it's not too obvious). Color enhancing is a sensitive topic, no one want to admit or talk about using color enhancer so breeders that tell you he/she do not use color enhancer and color is sharp, IMO he is not telling the truth.

Breeders do selective breed red discus for strong/solid color, because not all discus will process the color the same some pickup color faster and have strong more intense red than other (female tend to be better than male at processing color). Breeders also out cross with other red strains to improve color, example brown based red will have more deep red while pigeon base will be brighter.

Tony

[DiscusKev]

Discus do not have the gene for red, so there are no natural red to "pull out" they must be color feed. It's well known and accepted in discus competitions that red discus are color enhance (as long as it's not too obvious). Color enhancing is a sensitive topic, no one want to admit or talk about using color enhancer so breeders that tell you he/she do not use color enhancer and color is sharp, IMO he is not telling the truth.

Breeders do selective breed red discus for strong/solid color, because not all discus will process the color the same some pickup color faster and have strong more intense red than other (female tend to be better than male at processing color). Breeders also out cross with other red strains to improve color, example brown based red will have more deep red while pigeon base will be brighter.

Tony

If the discus is used for breeding, it is best not to use colour enhancer (heavy dose), there are limits. For ornamental use only, it is ok. As you said, breeders could cross them with wilds that portrays a strong solid red without the need to colour enhance their discus. If I'm correct, the red cover has the alenquer bloodline and is not a pigeon related strain, it is solid red (apart from top quality females [maroon coloured halo ring]), there is little need to colour enhance, unless off course, for show competition reasons...RM are pigeon based, and it is lighter in colour.

[tdiscusman]

If the discus is used for breeding, it is best not to use colour enhancer (heavy dose), there are limits. For ornamental use only, it is ok. As you said, breeders could cross them with wilds that portrays a strong solid red without the need to colour enhance their discus. If I'm correct, the red cover has the alenquer bloodline and is not a pigeon related strain, it is solid red (apart from top quality females [maroon coloured halo ring]), there is little need to colour enhance, unless off course, for show competition reasons...RM are pigeon based, and it is lighter in colour.

IMHO, all discus, including wild Alenquer, domestic brown based red (san merah, red cover, rose red, and red virgin etc), red turquoise, and pigeon based red all required color enhancing food to be red. Red discus have gene that can and are better better at process/display red from their food that is why they are red similar to flamingo feathers: Flamingo are red because of it's diet and not genetics. As matter of fact, my first discus, in 1986, was a wild red/brown. when I purchased it at my local LFS it's has a nice deep red. However, after a few months all the red are gone, to this day I'm not sure if I had a red alenquer or a brown discus that was color enhanced.

Maybe some wild discus expert would jump in and let us know if wild alenquer required color enhancing food to be red or it's red naturally.

Tony

[DiscusKev]

Maybe some wild discus expert would jump in and let us know if wild alenquer required color enhancing food to be red or it's red naturally.

Tony

I believe in the wilds, there are some kind of insect or what so ever that enhances their redness, not sure if you had check the thread on Hudson's wilds (the angelfishes), he had some thoughts about that too.

[joeGargas]

Here is some information regarding the Red color in fish in general!

Go to this link

http://tbas1.wiredtron.com/index.php?topic=143.msg884#msg884

Regards
jG

[tdiscusman]

Thank you Joe, great information. You sure know a lot about color enhancers, in your opinion is carophyll pink safe and are beneficial to Discus? There's a link here on Simply that talk about it, the conclusion I've got out of that was it's cause eyes problem in human and not good for discus.

I've talked with few of my breeders friends in Asia, they have used carophyll pink for many years and have experience no problems.

here's the link: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=42820&highlight=carophyll+pink&page=2

Thanks
Tony



Here is some information regarding the Red color in fish in general!

Go to this link

http://tbas1.wiredtron.com/index.php?topic=143.msg884#msg884

Regards
jG