The Aquatic3 Project

[aquatic3]

OK....the day has arrived...DAY 1....for the Aquatic3 Project ("Aqua-tic-Cubed") planted Discus Aquarium. I'll be posting from time-to-time here about my efforts to establish a happy medium for the planted Discus aquarium enthusiast. My blog will provide centralized resources on everything I've read and related to supporting a well balanced ecosystem for both Discus and Plants. The objective is to keep the fish happy while providing a visually esthetically pleasing aquascape. The goal is to make it stable, reliable and most of all viable as to not to become a chore. Please let me know what you think and any constructive criticism or advise is welcome.

Tank Photo Was Here....some have suggested I remove it and save for contest. I'll see what contest organizer think. Until then I'll be frequently posting info about decisions I'm making regarding cycling, tank mates, etc....all in preparation for Kenny's Discus (sponsor here).

Not too bad for first day. Plants are slow growers and hope the Xmas Moss and Pellia will catch on with warm water. More phots and conditions on my blog.

Water Parameters:

PH 7.4
GH 7
KH 9 / 3.2 Alkalinity
NO2 -
NO3 -
NO4 -

Aquarium Specs

140 gallon aquarium (-) built in overflow and substrate/hardscape rocks about 115 gallons
48" x 21" x 32" tall
x4 55 watt AH Supply Reflector kits
Eheim 2027 Biological Canister Filter
Lifegard Module Filters (Custom with Co2 diffuser, biological chambers x2)
Lifegard 25 watt UV Sterilizer
GLA Choice CO2 System
Milwaukee Instruments PH controller (CO2 Solenoid)
PinPoint Remote Temperature Modules x2
AquLift Canopy Control

[aquatic3]

Can some one coach me on embeding or linking to photos I have on Picasa...thanks

Figured it out...have to load to Simpy Discus or if there is any easier way let me know.

Also, I guess I have to rotate pics before uploading?

[Jennie]

you should stop here and save this for the contest! And no you don't need discus, just a decorated tank!:)

[aquatic3]

Tank cycling is moving along. Aquarium is still a bit cloudy, but that should go away soon. I've hooked up CO2 and defusing within my Lifegard canister. Started last night and PH is down .5 degrees to PH 6.9. I'm trying to get CO2 to my new plants. Mosses not doing well. I should have waited to introduce them. My goal is to let eco-complete settle in...it may effect PH readings before I lock in my water parameters. I want to have a PH level of 6.5 (with CO2), but don't want the .9 possible swing as without Co2, its around 7.4. Eventually I may need to add peat to system to help reduce base line PH, but would rather not. Will see how it everything balances out.

I have 50 Runny Nose Tetras on order. The tank should be close to cycling by the time they arrive in 2 weeks. Before adding fish, I will bring my CO2 levels or bubbles per second down. For now its about the plants and getting those conditions optimal.
;)

[aquatic3]

Has anyone every used water lettuce in a planted tank?

I like the root system and think it may provide unique presentation to my layout. Also will provide algae control and shade from lights for Discus.

Thoughts

[h2osanity]

It requires a lot of light in the aquarium and tends to flatten out so that it does not 'cup' very well. The leaves go soft when they rot and I have heard mention that they are toxic to fish. An alternative could be Red Root Floater or Phyllanthus fluitans...see here (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myplants/16-Red_Root_Floater_Phyllanthus_fluitans.html) for pic

[Jennie]

I have water lettuce growing in my pond. The roots are cool. I wish it would grow submerged.

[aquatic3]

I saw them at Greenwich Aquaria and they were in a rimless Amano tank with Discus and Lotus leaves under them. Fantastic. Got me thinking about my layout. I would like to try them out toward front (left and right sides). leaving center open. This could add to the effect and provide shelter for Discus. Only issue. I have a closed top with covers. But I leave about 1/4 " of space for water agitation for the spray bars. Maybe that's just enough room to enable top of plant to get light and not be totally submerged. In nature they live in large clumps and I'm sure some are buried under the others. Will have to ask it this will work. Have not seen to many people use them in a closed aquarium. Thus the appeal to try something unique.:D

[brewmaster15]

Tank cycling is moving along. Aquarium is still a bit cloudy, but that should go away soon. I've hooked up CO2 and defusing within my Lifegard canister. Started last night and PH is down .5 degrees to PH 6.9. I'm trying to get CO2 to my new plants. Mosses not doing well. I should have waited to introduce them. My goal is to let eco-complete settle in...it may effect PH readings before I lock in my water parameters. I want to have a PH level of 6.5 (with CO2), but don't want the .9 possible swing as without Co2, its around 7.4. Eventually I may need to add peat to system to help reduce base line PH, but would rather not. Will see how it everything balances out.

I have 50 Runny Nose Tetras on order. The tank should be close to cycling by the time they arrive in 2 weeks. Before adding fish, I will bring my CO2 levels or bubbles per second down. For now its about the plants and getting those conditions optimal.
;)

Several years ago I was in a floating plant kick and tried water lettuce , as well as hyacinth and parrots feather... and none of them did well in my tanks... tank was open...moderate light...pH 7.6 83-84F.
hth,
-al

[aquatic3]

Bummer...not sure if they are going to work with closed lid pressed up to the top...sandwiched in. They are supposed to be very hardy. Maybe I'll try an inexpensive experiment. FrogBit is another strain from Africa/Brazil that might survive. No wonder we have not seen it. They just can't make it in Discus tank.:(:confused::confused::confused:

[h2osanity]

Red Root Floaters are a good substitute.... Phyllanthus fluitans I tried to link to it earlier but it got intercepted. ;)
Check it out on plantedtank.net

[brewmaster15]

frogbit works...I've known several that have used it here... and I had some on my angel fish tank earlier this year for a few months...aquabid was where I got mine.

hth,
al

[scottishbloke]

Frogbit or Floating Water Sprite...both are super easy to care for, will grow and multiply like crazy under good light, that's all you need in addition to water. I had the latter plant growing to over 24'' across in a 55g under 2 x 54watt T5HO 6700k, and both plant species needed frequent heavy culling to stay under control (sell your excess to LFS). If you have very little space above the water line, would suggest Frogbit as it does not stick up from the surface and has cool-looking "hairy" roots.

That Red Root Floater looks really great, never seen it before- no-one around here carries it. I would love some for my 90g, if anyone has some to sell.

Colin

[aquatic3]

Fishless Cycle started today. I've been away, so starting the 100% ammonia cycling process was not going to be practical until today. Settling in at about 5 ppm and hope to see some progress on "good" bacteria colony build up and increase in Nitrite levels.:D:D:D:D:D

[Duke2]

Aquatic3

Great post ... I will be watching with interest and look forward to your pictures.

[aquatic3]

I was told to wait for photos unitl the contest is decided on this month. But your welcome to look at what I have on my blog. Details about Aquascaping etc. Most of all the information will find its way here over time.:D

[aquatic3]

The fishless cycling is going better than expected and is a solid recipe for getting a large tank acclimated for fish and plants. Rummy Noses are in LFS and are be acclimated as well. Next week will a big week with the addition of 50 schooling fish.

I will be trying a plant experiment as well, which I'll post to see if I can get water lettuce to grow under the glass and in 1/4" of water. Not sure how it will go, but I really want to create a visual under water effect with the floating plant for shade and dangling root system.

Lastly, I'm working on finalizing my automatic water change system. I will post my plans for how it should work.
:D:D:D:D:D:D

[aquatic3]

Cycling is almost done. This is a photo of Day 1, once cycling is finished I'll post more photos. I've lost a lot of the grass (Cypris Helferi).

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/picture.php?albumid=286&pictureid=2223

The Fishless Cycling started last Tuesday and is nearly complete. It works like a charm and much better than having to wait 4 to 6 weeks for traditional cycling. However, I should have removed my Cypris Helferia (grass) from the tank for the cycling. It is a very sensitive plant and really suffered 4 days in process. I had to cut back the plant from 15"+ to 4" and we will see if it comes back. Also have a few leaves from my Anubias suffer, but the rest are fine. The mosses are coming back slowly. All expected for a brand new tank start up.

So here are some of the results:

-First day of cycling...brought Ammonia levels up to about 4-5 ppm (doesn't have to be perfect). N02 and NO3 readings zero. Ph spiked from 7.2 up to 8.8. NOTE: Nitrites require higher PH above 7.2 to convert Ammonia. I don't like it this high, but it will level out.
- Day 2 dosed a little more Ammonia keeping it at level around 5 pmm;
- Day 3 started seeing very slight signs of Nitrite (N02) so stopped ammonia dosing.
- Day 4 NO2 now clearly climbing from .25 to .5 ppm, ammonia leveling out about 2.5-3 pmm
- Day 5 NO2 starting to spike 2 ppm and NO3 Nitrate levels appearing. Ammonia about 1.5 pmm
- Day 6 NO2 over 5+ and NO3 high at 80 pmm and ammonia levels steady at 1+ pmm. Conducted partial water change. Need to see NO2 and ammonia levels start dropping.

I have my Rummy Nose Tetra shipment arriving this week at LFS. They will acclimate them first and provide me 50 of the strongest lot by this weekend. Will place order for two (pair) of Germany Blue Rams.

I've also decided to Test, Dwarf Water Lettuce. We will see. Objective is to have 30 plants across the front of the tank, to provide areas of shading and effect with root system. Supposedly the Dwarf or mini species are easier to manage in aquarium, root systems are still large enough and can handle being under a lid or tight space within closed aquarium. I plan on have one filter breaking water surface for oxygenation. The space I plan on leaving is approximately 1/4" ( not a lot). The filter providing surface agitation and aeration is not the same spray bar delivering defused C02.

Note: I also decided to change the water flow direction. I had spray bars mounted in the back, spraying forward, and both providing surface agitation. I did not like the water circulation balance or the fact my CO2 delivery was possibly loosing out with water agitation. So now I have both spray bars mounted to the sides of the tank. The Left is the stronger of the two (higher GPH) and is pointing straight down. Forcing water down, across bottom and up the opposite side. This should distribute diffused CO2 better and provide less current mid tank where Discus like to hang out. The other spray bar breaks the surface, shoots water off top of tank and creates current across the top of the tank lengthwise. This provides the necessary oxygenation both plants and fish require, however lower GPH does not provide to much current to effect mid or upper levels of aquarium.

[GrillMaster]

I am a lil curious why you are doing fishless cycling and adding amonia... If you add enough plants, the tank is virtually cycled after you plant. The plants themselves take care of any amonia and nitrites. Just remove any unwanted plants after a month or so. This way you dont have to worry about amonia destroying any of your plants to begin with... My .02 anyways. :)

[aquatic3]

Your point is valid, however I did not want to wait 4-6 weeks for a standard cycle. Many aquarist don't cycle properly and I have a lot of substrate and two filters that need to be well cycled. Ammonia cycling ensures that entire tank and filtration system are balanced. My problem ended up miss reading my Salifert water test kit and probably over dosed above 5 ppm then I should have. Otherwise I would have had no issues. Everything is balancing out now. I have solid Nitrite, reducing Ammonia and solid Nitrate levels. Stocking the plant with slow growing Anubias etc. would have not made much of a difference. The Aquatic3 Project is trying to prove that the correct balance of equipment, plant species and Discus fish can cohabitate. Ultimately the aquarium we are try to establish should less of a chore and more of an enjoyment.

[AzFishKid]

I agree with grillmaster. You can put a small amount of plants in a large aquarium and it'll be cycled within 2 weeks or so... there's no reason to add ammonia. And as far as i'm concerned, most people with new planted tanks have no problems with cycling. It's the artificial, decorative aquariums that people usually have trouble cycling.



The Aquatic3 Project is trying to prove that the correct balance of equipment, plant species and Discus fish can cohabitate. Ultimately the aquarium we are try to establish should less of a chore and more of an enjoyment.

Don't mean to burst your bubble or anything, but hasn't this already been proven hundreds of times before? There's a whole section dedicated to planted discus tanks... is there something different that you're trying to prove?

Either way, great project and i look forward to seeing it fill in. The detailed information/updates are very nice also!

[aquatic3]

:thumbsup::sun::thumbsup::sun::thumbsup:
I agree with grillmaster. You can put a small amount of plants in a large aquarium and it'll be cycled within 2 weeks or so... there's no reason to add ammonia. And as far as i'm concerned, most people with new planted tanks have no problems with cycling. It's the artificial, decorative aquariums that people usually have trouble cycling.




Don't mean to burst your bubble or anything, but hasn't this already been proven hundreds of times before? There's a whole section dedicated to planted discus tanks... is there something different that you're trying to prove?

Either way, great project and i look forward to seeing it fill in. The detailed information/updates are very nice also!

Thanks for your feed back...I also like your project and watching intently. Don't worry, my bubble will not burst.

Before I go any further. Let me explain to all readers that my project is about a large (100+) planted aquarium, aquascaped, and with Adult Discus (+ a few tank mates). YES...this has been done 1000 times. However, read my blog and maybe some of the things I discus will resonate....or not.

I believe your comment is validating my point and the driver why I've started the Aquatic3 Project.

So much information is out there about water parameters and best practices for establish Discus or Planted aquariums that I believe there is a lot of confusion or not as much clarity what is required for a well balanced "Planted Discus" aquarium. There are many aspects of establishing a planted Discus aquarium that my blog focuses on and one of those is proper cycling. When it comes to aquarium over 120+ gallons that require large biological filters and some may have a redundant filters, properly establishing your aquarium or "cycling" is critical. It is virtually impossible to cycle a "NEW" tank in 2 weeks by just adding plants. This is a misconception and just one reason why I started the Aquatic3 Project. If you add several, plants into the aquarium the root system should have enough bio material to help provide cultures to help start the population growth for Nitrites during the cycling process. However, it's still not going to speed up the ammonia build up process, which makes Nitrites and then Nitrates. My blog reviews this as simply as possible.

Bottom line. If all you do is add plants the decaying plant matter over time will raise necessary Ammonia Levels. Nitrites do not just grow. They need Ammonia. Over time is the problem. It can take a 4-6 weeks and for larger tanks even longer. Now if you add any tank mates like Tetras in to the process, we are no longer talking about "Fishless Cycling" and you will lose fish. Additionally, there are many products out there that will help "Jump Start" the cycling process and ammonia build up, but IMO simply adding ammonia is the best. For my project since I have a 140 gallon aquarium, with deep substrate, and two redundant filtration units. I have to make sure I establish a solid foundation. If not, over the next several months I will be constantly chasing after problem after problem, or even worse create an environment for bad cultures to form that will affect the Adult Discus.

If you don't establish from the start the proper cultures of both Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira you'll always have an unstable ecosystem. Many aquarist think they have properly cycled the aquarium in 2+ weeks when the really have not. NOTE: my position is not for a BB Discus set up or a BB tank with a few plants in it, or is this about a purely planted aquarium. The best practices are for a planted Discus aquarium. Before adding CO2, and altering your Water Chemistry with peat or RO/DI, first you need to know your Water Supply (see my blog) and then establish the proper cultures in your aquarium and filtration system. Once this is done, you know what your "true base line is". Now you can start planning for what Water Chemistry regiment you want for your planted Discus tank.

All I'm trying to do is establish a centralized resource of information and facts as it pertains to establishing a balanced ecosystem that supports both:
A) Nature Style Aquarium with Plants and;
B) Discus and tank mates.

The above sounds very straight forward, and something you've read, seen or experienced many times, but its not. This is the kind of discussion and constructive criticisum and feedback that promotes results. This is what this thread is about ...so thank you.

[aquatic3]

Taking a poll from everyone.

What do you think the basic medical kit should be for every new Discus owner?:):):)

[Duke2]

Great post... i will watch with interest before starting my 200G tank.

By the way your tank looks great....

[aquatic3]

The Aquatic3 Project Week 3

The plants look great and I should have my 50 rummy noses soon. LFS already rejected first order. Good idea to have LFS QT fish. When they have skin in the game or your order, they will make sure your getting the best stock.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/picture.php?albumid=286&pictureid=2306

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/picture.php?albumid=286&pictureid=2308

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/picture.php?albumid=286&pictureid=2307

More photos on my blog as well.:D:D:D:D:D

[lpiasente]

Rummynose will look amazing against all the green in your tank.

[evilfry]

hey there,

mind sharing the url of your actual blog?

cheers

[Jennie]

http://www.aquatic3.com/

[Mxx]

Interesting thread, I came across it while early in the process of planning my own similar tank.

Could you perhaps show some close-up photos of how you have your overflow and filtration working? At the moment I'm trying to work out how I could do an in-tank biological filter sump that's about 4 inches wide and running the length of a 2 metre tank behind a 3D background. I though the in-tank sump might be quieter, easier, and more dependable than either a wet/dry sump or canister filters. I suppose that I'm looking for an overflow intake at one end, and an overflow return at the other end, possibly with an auxilary canister filter with an intake prefilter sponge.

To throw in what I've gathered myself while researching cycling, plants will absorb ammonia directly, so they should be able to immediately handle the ammonia produced by a small population of fish while meanwhile the bacteria in the filter are gradually getting established. And by the time you'd be adding more fish than the plants can handle by themselves your filters will already be cycled. So it seems it can happily be done either way. It's not as if you have a large bio-mass of plants, so you'd nevertheless have to start out with a low fish population. It doesn't hurt though to make sure the plants are healthy, living, and growing though by dosing ammonia prior to adding fish, just to ensure they are actually metabolising ammonia as they should.

[aquatic3]

I recomend inline canister filters over sump. I use Eheim and Lifegard. Easy and efficient. If your going to use CO2 a sump will exauhst much faster. You can see details of my set up on my blog. My discus are comming in 3 weeks and tank is perfect. Automatice water changer, timers, controllers and Co2 makes this a hi-tech tank and very automated. Works like a dream!

[Mxx]

I recomend inline canister filters over sump. I use Eheim and Lifegard. Easy and efficient. If your going to use CO2 a sump will exauhst much faster. You can see details of my set up on my blog. My discus are comming in 3 weeks and tank is perfect. Automatice water changer, timers, controllers and Co2 makes this a hi-tech tank and very automated. Works like a dream!

Now that I've had a look at your blog that answers some of my questions. And wow, you're obsessive! I'm not seeing how your project is so different than other planted tanks though, apart from the meticulous way you've documented it.

I can't speak from personal experience, but I'm not seeing any contradiction in keeping discus in a planted tank. Yes, perhaps it's not as easy to clean a planted tank as a bare-bottom tank, but it doesn't mean that a planted tank approach can't be done equally successfully IMHO, as long as you go about doing it in the right way. Nevertheless, if you're trying to serve as a resource for the community then maybe I can grill you with some questions! Can you tell me what oxygen and CO2 levels you think are optimum to try and target? I keep hearing that discus thrive in high oxygen levels, which is trickier to achieve of course with high temperatures, low current, etc.

And when I said I was looking at doing a sump, I didn't mean a wet/dry filter, I just meant about a fully submersed 30 gallon chambered in-tank sump which would overflow slowly from chamber to chamber and therefore shouldn't off-gas more than your aquarium usually would. Of course, 30 gallons of pot-scrubber bio-filter medium might use up a good portion of oxygen itself so I wouldn't mind a bit of extra oxygen. And CO2 is cheap, so I'd rather have high oxygen and have to dose lots of C02 if that would best benefit the plants, the filtration, and the fish.

[aquatic3]

The objective of Aquatic3 is to provide a resource for planning, developing and managing a planted Discus tank. I’m a supporter of a planted tank scape Discus aquarium. My point is that you do have to pay attention to the details or you will have continued problems and unhealthy Discus or worse dead! This is why most aquarist end up with bare bottom tanks. They just can’t keep up with the issues. If you read more, you'll find people have lots of troubles with Planted/Discus and there is not proper documentation to show you have to do it.

To address your questions. I’m still unclear as to what filter your trying to use. An overflow with chambers sounds like trickle system. Sump or Wet/Dry you’ll have gas off. If your building a water/air tight filter system then your fine. I’m still big fan of in-line that supports both Mechanical and Biological.

The safe level you want for Fish + Plants is approximately 30 ppm. To figure that out you need to know your KH and PH levels. Following a standard CO2 chart (on my blog) you can find the correct level. CO2 should only be injected during the day. Plants don’t use it during the night, so without a controller or timer your PH levels will drop too low and CO2 levels too high. You will also need adequate surface agitation to promote oxygenation. Yes…there will be gas off her as well…but O2 is important for plants at night and fish overall.

NOTE: I have timer that starts CO2 at 9am and shuts off at 6pm. My PH levels without CO2 are around 7.7. When CO2 first kicks in takes about 1 hr to bring it down to 7.2, which my Milwaukee PH controller kicks in and turns off CO2. CO2 tanks in New York cost about $25. I don’t know how long it last, since my first set up had issues with Regulator and dumped all CO2 from tank around 30 days. I would like to think a 10 lbs tank would last several months given my set up.

If your going to play around with CO2 the other factor your going to have to experiment with is light intensity and length of time. I have 220 watts (T5) x2 (10,000K) and x2 (6800K). My lights are timed and first set come on at 9am and shut off at 7:45pm. The other set come on at 10am and shut off at 7pm. This seems to promote adwquet plant growth and zero algae. All of this and I run 25w UV 24/7.

Hope this helps!

[Mxx]

http://www.tropica.com/advising/types-of-aquaria/fish-aquaria/discus-aquaria.aspx Here is an article that answered some of those same questions as well. It advises max of 20 ppm CO2 though for discus.

[prolude006]

In 24 hours or less you can set up a large planted tank or small for that matter with fish and plants and have it run just fine from that point on. It is done regularly in planted tank competitions overseas. They take a fresh tank, set it up aquascaped with all new plants and put the fish in for the show, then some tanks stay set up for a long while, years even. Takashi Amano and Oliver Knott do this many times over.


David