Oceanic 100 First Discus Tank Sump Questions

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi all, I bought a Oceanic 100 gallon tank for my first discus tank today. It is an older tank 60x17x22 with a old style wet/dry filter. The dual water input actually goes into a bar that spins and sprays the water over the bio-media which is shotgun wads. I pulled this sump out of the stand and am in the process of cleaning it. Yuck, it has about 5+ years to gunk. Rich brown nasty gunk. About a inch plus thick.

This sump has more compartments then a piece of swiss cheese. One of them appears to be a built in protein skimmer. So it seems to me like a good idea to look at some newer sumps and see how I could modify this for use on a discus tank. First idea I had was to replace the bar with a mesh bag and with shotgun wads with the pot scubbies. Also would love some ideas from you folks.

I attached a picture of the sump. It is still dirty in this picture and does not have a lip of the water input over the bio chamber. Other info you might ask is I'm planning a low tech planted tank.

[Apistomaster]

This filter will work well for your discus tanks. I use wet/dry filters i built on my 2 large discus display tanks.
I like to also use a canister filter in conjunction with my wet/dry filters because they tend to do a better job of "polishing" the water than the wet/dry filters alone.
I think it would be easier to use it as it is although I prefer using BioBale, shaved PVC, 250 sq feet/cu ft because they have such a good surface area per cu ft compared to something like shot gun shells but people also use plastic Brillo pads to plastic play army men as their biomedia.

The most annoying thing about having the sump so compartmentalized is that due to the high evaporation rates associated with all wet/dry filters it is necessary to frequently add make up water so your pump won't run dry. RO make up water is ideal because it won't increase the TDS.
For only a few large display tanks wet/dry filters do a better job of off gassing CO2 and keep the dissolved oxygen levels very close to the maximum potential for a given temperature. Canister filters tend to be net O2 consumers which is another reason I like to use both on a show tank.

I think you will be very pleased with how well Discus respond to the well oxygenated water and the flow through rates. How many gallons per hour is the water pump rated for? I shoot for about 10X the net volume of the tank per hour. This may seem high but it really isn't enough to set up a strong current which Discus have to fight.
This tank is probably pre-drilled for the inlet/outlets. Since mine are all DIY, I had to use fairly expensive after market over flow siphons and I equipped each one with an AquaLifter suction pump to prevent breaking the siphon flow. This is very convenient when making water changes or restarts after a power outage. It prevent flooding but I doubt your tank has that risk but then again, it is a DIY wet/dry and maybe comes with an over flow siphon. The aquaLifter suction pumps are only $10 to $12.

Here is the last wet/dry I built by modifying a 29 gal high and you can see the BioBale media. it is used on my 125 gal tank and the water pump is a MagDrive 9.5 rated at 950 gph at zero head. I used a 1200 gph CPR over flow siphon.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/125sysdesign0008.jpg
This photo shows the cover for the inlet i built. I used about 2 cu ft of BioBale media giving me about 500 sqft of substrate biomedia surface area. I used an Eheim Classic Model no 2217 which adds an additional 260 gph of filtration. I replace the Blue bonded mechanical filter media pad about 4 times a year. It is 11-1/2 X 20 inches. I added a "T" controlled by a ball valve in case I want to use a PhosBan media reacter. I used to use Purigen when I was keeping Heckels and this allows me to divert about 75 gph of flow through the reactor.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/125sysdesign0002.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Larry, Lots of good info and that bio-bale looks perfect for my bio-media chamber. Your sump does look a bit similar to the inlet and return chambers of this sump. I did discover that there is an extra three chambers which appear to be an overflow area (in case of a power outage) but they are dead areas, no flow with the rest of the sump.

Would you recommend keeping the spray bar? Also I will have to look up the flow rate of this pump. This tank also has inlet/outlet chambers, one on each end of the tank.

[KenRc51]

nice sump

[Apistomaster]

I like BioBale but it is hard to dispute that inexpensive plastic Brillo Pads from a Dollar store make a cheaper alternative with similar performance.

You either have to keep the spray bar or modify the filter to support a drip plate over the bio media.

[Jhhnn]

I'd try the shotshell wads before doing anything else. It's an interesting idea that obviously worked for the previous owner.

Sump spraybars are often flowrate dependent for them to spin properly, and you'll want a much lower flowrate than used in reef systems. Those benefit from the scouring action of high flow and turbulence, discus don't...

[Apistomaster]

I'd try the shotshell wads before doing anything else. It's an interesting idea that obviously worked for the previous owner.

Sump spraybars are often flowrate dependent for them to spin properly, and you'll want a much lower flowrate than used in reef systems. Those benefit from the scouring action of high flow and turbulence, discus don't...

Hi Jhhnn,

You seem to be unfamiliar with the design and use of wet/dry filters. Your advice to continue using the shot shell wads is not good. Even the cheap plastic Brillo Scrub pads rate quite high as a wet/dry bio-media. There is an optimal relationship between the available surface area and the efficiency of the media and exposure to atmospheric air and shot shell are very low down on the list of desirable wet/dry bio media . They occupy a large volume but have a low volume to surface area ratio.

The 10 X gph of the volume of the tank through the media is ideal. It does not reduce the effectiveness in any way and is the best way to produce a high gas exchange rate. The wet
/dry filters are the best class of filter for reaching and maintaining the highest dissolved oxygen levels and only additional aeration from an air stone in the tank could produce a modest improvement in dissolved oxygen. These are the reasons why aquatic gardeners do generally not like wet/dry filters because they have to use more CO2 to maintain their target for optimal plant growth but many feel the benefits out weigh the added of expense of using more CO2.

[Discus master]

I can understnd the concept of a gravity feed sump from a pre drilled tank, what I don't understand is how a syphon feed system works. What I mean is how do you know how fast the water is comming out of your syphon in relationship to your return pump in the sump? I would be worried that either to much water would eneter the sump to fast that the pump could not handle it and the syphon would break due to the tube being exposed to sir in the tank. Or the flow from the syphon would be to slow the pump emptys the sump runs dry not good and at the same time over flows you tank not good either. With a gravity feed pr drilled tank the flow comming into the sump will be equal to the pump in the sump returning the flow, so theres no problem there. Also I guess you only set the intake tube for a pre drilled just bellow the surface line some so if you lose power then only like an inch would actually drain into the sump and assuming the sump is large enough to hold that watter you would be good there. Same concept tot he syphon feed method in that regards but still i am not so sure hom the whole flow works as you can see. I just emptied a 30 well ok 29 gallon tank I plan on turrning into a wet dry, I have a 55 running a canister filter at the momment but my wife the warden is letting me up grade to a 110 which is the perfect size for our home becuase of its foot print and all. well I plan on running the canister in conjunction with the wet dry but the tank i am buying will may not be pre drilled so I need help here. In terms of GPH pump and so forth I was thinking of running the system on the 55 a few months a head of time in order to see the BIO media.

Thanks for all you help, I did not mean to jack the thread but the question of sumps have been stiring in my head for a long long time and reading this thread really sparked some much needed answers again thank you for your help and adice in advance as always.:angel:

PS I think I will prob start my own thread for this as well So I do not high jack this thread anymore than I already did. Sorry again:D

[Second Hand Pat]

Discus Master, google "overflow boxes". They existed prior to RR tanks. Also your overflow box needs to be able to handle a higher water volume then the sump pump can pump about about a 5/6 ft head.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks for all the great info. I think I will keep the spray bar and use the pot scubbies for the bio-media.

Apistomaster, thanks for pointing out the difference between shotgun wads and the pot scubbies. You build a beautiful sump BTW. I will need to check the flowrate of this pump. It is an older one and I hope I can find some info on it.

Jhhnn, thank you also.

DM, holler if you need more help.

[Jhhnn]

Hi Jhhnn,

You seem to be unfamiliar with the design and use of wet/dry filters. Your advice to continue using the shot shell wads is not good. Even the cheap plastic Brillo Scrub pads rate quite high as a wet/dry bio-media. There is an optimal relationship between the available surface area and the efficiency of the media and exposure to atmospheric air and shot shell are very low down on the list of desirable wet/dry bio media . They occupy a large volume but have a low volume to surface area ratio.

The 10 X gph of the volume of the tank through the media is ideal. It does not reduce the effectiveness in any way and is the best way to produce a high gas exchange rate. The wet
/dry filters are the best class of filter for reaching and maintaining the highest dissolved oxygen levels and only additional aeration from an air stone in the tank could produce a modest improvement in dissolved oxygen. These are the reasons why aquatic gardeners do generally not like wet/dry filters because they have to use more CO2 to maintain their target for optimal plant growth but many feel the benefits out weigh the added of expense of using more CO2.

I'm familiar with them- I have one in operation, an older oceanic trickle filter model 75 system w/ drip plate and bioballs. It's BB, and has been in operation for over a year. I've downsized the pump considerably- if it actually flows 4x the tank volume per hour I'd be surprised. The fish like it a lot better, and the noise is considerably reduced with no slurping or gurgling. More than a few sources offer that ~5x is desirable even for marine aquaria.

Higher flow rates may well create greater oxygenation, but I must be somewhere near the point of diminished returns because it's my healthiest tank, and also the most heavily populated and fed. It houses 8 large (large!) RSxAF acquired from Kenny at 4" who've never been sick a day since acquiring them. I do employ some of the waste air from my central air pump going into the bioball chamber, two sponge filters and near daily 50 gal water changes along with regular cleaning of the prefilter and very infrequent cleaning of the bioballs.

My tapwater has chloramines, so I use prime. Free ammonia levels are non-existent, Ammonium levels are only detectable for a few hours after a water change, and nitrites are undetectable.

I offered that our querist might try the shotshell wads because he clearly wants to save a little, and because my own experience tells me that the whole venture really is overkill for normally recommended discus populations. I'm sure that the plastic scrubbies are probably better. Reef systems are apparently extremely sensitive to water quality issues, even moreso than our pets. Not that overkill is bad, but too much of it is clearly pointless.

I'm currently interested in the moving bed biofilters (kaldness media or similar) for future expansion because they're supposedly extremely effective for freshwater, self cleaning, and very quiet...

Self cleaning would be very good, because dealing with gooked-up bioballs is a pita...

[Discus master]

Discus Master, google "overflow boxes". They existed prior to RR tanks. Also your overflow box needs to be able to handle a higher water volume then the sump pump can pump about about a 5/6 ft head.

What do you mean by this? I was thinking of using a 29 gallon tank to make my sump out of. The tank I will be up grading to will be a 110 I have a 55 now. I reaserched how the over flow boxes work and I think I understand it now. According to what i have read the over flow box will syphon water out at the same rate as the sump pump thats returning it into the tank, just like a pre drilled tank would work, does this sound accurate? I am not understanding what you mean about the over flow box though do I need to purchse a large one or something?

[DiscusOnly]

What do you mean by this? I was thinking of using a 29 gallon tank to make my sump out of. The tank I will be up grading to will be a 110 I have a 55 now. I reaserched how the over flow boxes work and I think I understand it now. According to what i have read the over flow box will syphon water out at the same rate as the sump pump thats returning it into the tank, just like a pre drilled tank would work, does this sound accurate? I am not understanding what you mean about the over flow box though do I need to purchse a large one or something?

Overflow boxes are rated based on the size of the bulkhead, just like a drilled tank. If you have a larger return pump, you would use an overflow box with larger bulkhead and vice versa.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18358

[Second Hand Pat]

I can understnd the concept of a gravity feed sump from a pre drilled tank, what I don't understand is how a syphon feed system works. :D

DM, by gravity feed system are you referring to the relationship between a overflow box and the sump regarding water volume. I guess I'm not sure what you are confused about.

[Discus master]

Overflow boxes are rated based on the size of the bulkhead, just like a drilled tank. If you have a larger return pump, you would use an overflow box with larger bulkhead and vice versa.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18358

So are you refering to the size fitting on the return pump or the gph rate of the return pump?

[Discus master]

DM, by gravity feed system are you referring to the relationship between a overflow box and the sump regarding water volume. I guess I'm not sure what you are confused about.

Well after reading I m assuming that they are all gravity feed systems, I was thinking about how my syphon works and thought well how do you know you are not going to over flow your tank if you over flow box is not keeping up with the return flow or vice versa. But I am beging to understand that the flow comming from the over flow box is going to be exactly what the pump is putting into the tank so that would not happen? correct me if I am worng?

So if I had say a 350 gph pump in the sump the over flow box is going to be putting water back into the sump at the same rate of 350 gph? assuming the pump is running at max??

[DiscusOnly]

Basic concept.

Your overflow box is basically a surface skimmer to overflow water into a sump. The rate of that flow is determined by how big or many bulkhead there are in the overflow box. The sump that is receiving the overflow water must be big enough in case your return pump failed. The size of the return pump can't be too powerful or you will have a dry sump.

[Second Hand Pat]

..But I am beging to understand that the flow comming from the over flow box is going to be exactly what the pump is putting into the tank so that would not happen? correct me if I am worng???

Generally true if your Overflow box can handle the output flow of your pump. Overflow boxes are built to handle a maximum gallons per hour ie GPH, for example 600 GPH or 1200 GPH or whatever. Also your pump flow rate is dependent on how high you are pumping from the ground (assuming your pump is at ground level). Check out this table;

"http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem.aspxcategory=Danner_Mag_Drive_Supreme_ 9.5_950_GPH_Water_Pump_500_to_100o_Gallons_Per_Hou r_Submersible_Water_Pumps&vendor=Danner_Mfg.&idProduct=DN1111&IdCategory=FIWPSBFT&child=DN1127&tab=1&size=9.5%20(950%20gph)"

Paste the link without quotes.

My mag drive 9.5 sits at floor level but pumps water to a five foot high on my reef tank. At ground level it pumps 950 GPH, but at 5 ft it pumps at 750 GPH.



=Discus master;684278].. So if I had say a 350 gph pump in the sump the over flow box is going to be putting water back into the sump at the same rate of 350 gph? assuming the pump is running at max??

Yes, providing your over flow box can handle 350 GPH.

[Discus master]

So when you are purchasing a overflow box are there ratting associated with them? printed on the back of the box? and I kniow what is mean about max head rite the higher the water needs to travel the less gph you will get i understand that. I get what is meant buy if you loose power your sump must have enough space to hold the extra water comming from the over flow box. Untill the level in the tank is low enough that no water goes into the over flow bax the water in the tank is to low correct? So if say we are talking about 100 gallon tank the over flow box will be sitting in the tank X amount of inches say two, then your sump has to have enough room in it to hold 2 inches worth of that tanks water whatever that might be? I am going to guess it wuld be something like 6 or 8 gallons I dont know. But you also have to have a minimum level in your sump to start with so you sump is not runnig dry but you do not want to fill the sump near full because if you do loose power you will not have room in the sump for the extra 2 inches or whatever it may be of water is this correct a well? So really then in my 30 gallon sump sy started out 1/4 of the way full roughly 7 gallons then I have the potential to hold 21 more gallons of run off water if the power should fail? I doubt there would be 21 gallons in say the top 2 inches of a 100 gallon tank I wouldnt think anyway. How many inchs of water do those over flow boxes normaly skim? one or two inches? and are they boxes rated for max gph? and would I be safe then with a 29 gallon sump filled say 1/4 of the way or say like 10 gallon worth, has to be deep enough to accomidate the draw of the sump rite? I would think then a 30 gallon sump with about 10 gallon in it to start with if the over flow box only skims say the top inch or two and if the box is rated for say 1000 gph if thats realalistic and for good flow in a tank 100 gallon I could go with like a 800 gph submersibal pump by the time it gets to the top of the tank be reduced to what 650 - 600 gph would this or does this sound like a fesible plan. I really am trying to do this rite I cant afford to get it wrong and I do not want an accident duh that would suck plus I want to make sure it is sufficent flow/filtration for a 110 gallon tank which is what I will be upgrading to (100 was eiasr for the discusion to work with) and I want to make sure the sump will be able to have a big enough bio load to handle say 7 - 8 adult discus fish so I was going to use prably half the sump for BIO material put the sump in the other section and in the middle I would like a samll compartment for the two heaters I will probably need and a transition to the sump section so I can place a bag of purigan or whatever chemical filtration I want to use so a 3 compartment sump 1st section the largets and the 3rd section big enough for the pump and that be it I have been lookng at the sumps you can buy already built for inspiration thanks in advance for all the help everyone thank you very much!!! I know nothing about sumps or wet dry trickel can you tell:D

[Second Hand Pat]

Discus master, if you look at over flow boxes online their GPH is listed with each box. I going to suggest you do some online research on DIY sumps, wet/dry filters, reef ready, overflow boxes etc and their workings so you develop a working knowledge of these systems. Also you might consider a visit to your LFS and see in person how these systems work. I think that will help to ease your confusion.

[Discus master]

Discus master, if you look at over flow boxes online their GPH is listed with each box. I going to suggest you do some online research on DIY sumps, wet/dry filters, reef ready, overflow boxes etc and their workings so you develop a working knowledge of these systems. Also you might consider a visit to your LFS and see in person how these systems work. I think that will help to ease your confusion.

I have been doing that, and as a part of expanding my knowledge was obviously asking the experinced folks on SD. This is my main on line resource tool for learning about discus and how to keep them. So when you say to do on line research thats what this is for me. I did do some other googling typ stuff and learned how the over flow box works and I think based on my last post prior to this I am demonstrating a working knowledge of these systems. I think I am learning a lot about how they work, there were just a few points that I needed to clarify thank you all. I understand now that the over flow box is rated for a certan GPH and I know that my sump needs to be ble to handle the water if power should fail. and I know that if I buy a pump rated at 1000 gph that once it reaches the top of the tank that is obviouly reduced. My question now is geared more toward what type of gph pump should I be looking at for an 110 gallon tank with discus keeping in mind they do not like a ton of flow but I still want good curcilation. Please review my post above to see how far off my thinking actually is if I am on the rite track or totally off thanks. Oh and I have been to the fishplace many many times to look at their sump to see how I would like to design one of my own thanks!! for all who helped and for any future advice you might give its helping me out obviously:D

[Second Hand Pat]

My question now is geared more toward what type of gph pump should I be looking at for an 110 gallon tank with discus keeping in mind they do not like a ton of flow but I still want good curcilation

DM, if you reread the entire thread there are two flow rates mentioned in the prior posts, one was 10X and the other 4X and both member's seem happy and successful with their chosen flow rates. A 10X flowrate for a 110 is 1100 gph. A 4X flowrate is 440 gph.

Do you know how tall the tank will be from the floor? and which pump you want to use? The 100 I just bought is about 5 ft tall. So lets assume that I decided to go with a mag drive pump (good pump BTW), for the 10X flow rate at a 5 ft head I would go with a mag drive 12 which pumps 1120 gph at 5 ft. For the 4X flow rate the mag drive 7 pumps 420 gph at a 5 ft head.
(see Flow Rate (gph) vs Pumping Height (Feet) Table for the mag drive pumps).

Personally I will most likely use the pump that came with the tank I just bought since it is already plumped with the sump (picture in first post) that came with my tank. When I saw it running it's flow rate seemed decent. If I was doing this new I would option for the higher flow rate. I also like the mag drive pumps. I have one on my reef tank and they have good online reviews. They can also be submerged or inline.

[Apistomaster]

I agree that the choice of size of over flow siphon should have a higher gph capacity than the gph of water that is being pumped back into the tank. There are losses above zero head.

It is a good idea to place a ball valve on the outlet of your water pump and buying the largest practical sized pump. The ball valve placed on the pump outlet will not harm the pump and may be used to control the volume the pump can return to the tank. It can ruin a pump to restrict the pump's intake flow in any way. For most tanks in the 75 to 150 gallons range a MagDrive 9.5 is a good choice. In my set ups the maximum head is no more than 4 feet so there is only a slight loss of pumped water volume reducing the 950 gph at zero head down to approximately 850 gph.

[Discus master]

I agree that the choice of size of over flow siphon should have a higher gph capacity than the gph of water that is being pumped back into the tank. There are losses above zero head.

It is a good idea to place a ball valve on the outlet of your water pump and buying the largest practical sized pump. The ball valve placed on the pump outlet will not harm the pump and may be used to control the volume the pump can return to the tank. It can ruin a pump to restrict the pump's intake flow in any way. For most tanks in the 75 to 150 gallons range a MagDrive 9.5 is a good choice. In my set ups the maximum head is no more than 4 feet so there is only a slight loss of pumped water volume reducing the 950 gph at zero head down to approximately 850 gph.

I got you, thanks I think I understand it all now at least a lot better than before, So i will spec it all out then I have to think about how I am going to construct this thing. If I am going to have dificulty adhearing Plexi or plastic to the glass tank I have I am going to have to re think I am uilding this thing? Thanks for all the advice. Maybe I still can use the 30 gallon as the sump water holder but use something else for the actuall drip Bio material holder I would also like to thro a bag of purigin in there. I really wish I could get plastic to adhere to the glass walls of the tank. Maybe I will gall a glass shop and see how much money we would be talking to have the glass pre cut?

[Apistomaster]

When I built the modified 29H aquarium into a wet/dry I used glass baffles and glass strips to support the top egg crate grip upon which the blue bonded filter pad is placed and a lower ledge of glass strips to support anther egg crate to hold the bio-media.
Pretty much have to stick with glass on glass using silicone sealant or plexiglas using plexiglas welding glue.

The Purigen placed in a media bag performs poorly. I strongly recommend either a PhosBan
or other media reactor which uses the upwelling of water from the bottom up. This assures maximum efficiencies of the use of media. Some reactors may require fine filter felt pads at the top and bottom to retain fine grained media such as Purigen. Purigen is an interesting material and it can improve already very good water quality but it is not absolutely essential.
If you think you want to use supplemental chemical filtration media, design the return from the pump to go through a "T" fitting and then insert a ball valve in the side line so you can fine tune how much of the main flow you want to divert which will typically be only about 75 gph. I discharge this back into the sump where it enters the general circulation of the system.
Purigen is expensive up front but it may be recharged to like new indefinitely from what I have seen over the past 6 years. It only takes a soaking in bleach and rinsing well with dechlorinated water containing Prime to rejuvenate it.
The media reactor incorporated into the initial design may be used for other chemical media to deal with a particular problem. In media bags most water merely by passes the majority of the ion exchange sites in the media particles. I wanted to show a link to a newer design of media reactor which is a wider and squat device than the typical high tubes used on other media reactors. The one I have in mind comes with fine screens which retain fine media particles such as those of Purigen. Hopefully someone else can find a link to this product. It is only about $35, about the same as a Phosban reactors but no filter felt is necessary to contain the media as are required in PhosBan and similarly designed reactors.