Question about raising juvenile discus (tank with gravel)

[ericatdallas]

I posted this in another forum and received a good response. I do want to get some opinions here as I know there are a lot of experienced discus people here... I also made some modifications to my original post there...

I've been reading about discus for weeks (well all my life). I finally decided to take the plunge. I was going to buy some medium size ones but a local breeder was selling 1.5-2" ones cheap so I decided to buy those. I bought 6 of them. He fed them in a bare bottom tank and live brine shrimp.

The betta I have in there seems to leave them alone but I'm still debating on whether or not to take it out.

I couldn't find information that pertained to my exact situation and there's a lot of myths and conflicting information out there.

I'm also less concerned now that I saw several of my discus picking at the gravel looking for food.

My main concern is the discus nutrition. The tank is enormous (relative to the size of the discus) so I'm worried the discus aren't finding the food. I don't want to litter the tank with food to make sure they eat (the corydoras and snails will at least help with this). They're also hiding a lot so it's hard to tell if all of them are eating.

I know they're a little stressed right now. I moved my plecos and had to tear down the tank to get at them (the rocks allowed too many hiding places). This was the day after I bought them and I made the decision to remove them. After that, the discus have been terrified (compared to when I brought them home). I guess the move from the breeder to my tank and then the teardown really got to them... they're doing better now but still a little skittish.

How do I make sure they get proper nutrition? Should I just break out my 55G and fill it half way and feed the discus in a bare bottom tank? On Craigslist people are offering cheap 10G and 20G. Maybe I can pick up one of these and put them in there until they get larger?

Anyone have any luck rearing discus from the stage to an older age? If so, any advice? What food did you use? Since I only have 6 discus in the tank, how often should I do water changes? So far I've done 20% per day. Anyone think my discus are okay with the betta?

I also just purchased some earthworm flake food as I've been giving them a low quality general tropical fish flake food. I put some freeze dried bloodworms in there but I saw one of the discus take it and spit it out.

I'm not opposed to hatching brine shrimp. I'm just afraid they'll get lost in the tank and be a waste.

Both the separate tank and brine shrimp hatching are only problems because my wife doesn't want an eye sore. She'll let me put another tank in the basement but then I have to drag water via buckets down the stairs (and up). If it weren't for that, I would have already set up the second tank. So right now I would like to avoid it. If it were spring/summer I would probably put it in the garage.

Should I worry at all?

Thanks in advance,
Eric

Below is some additional information.

----------------
Background Info
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Aquarium Setup:
Tank Size: 75 G
Hood: CFL ~250W
Heater: Two 300W (set to 84F)
Substrate: Medium size gravel, large rocks with caves, and a few pieces of driftwood. Also a fake hollow log.
Whisper HOB for 60G
Fluval 405
Sponge Filter
Tankmates: Other than the 6 Discus fry - One male Betta, two nerite snails and two corydoras
Experience: Very basic aquarium for 26 years (had a 10G since a kid) but took about 12 years off due to constantly moving.
Spare Equipment: 55G w/ hood light, Fluval 404, two 200W heaters

I've always wanted to raise discus since I was a kid but couldn't afford the equipment or the fish. I recently got back into the hobby and bought a pair of Oscars b/c they were cheap and I've always liked them. I ended up giving them back to the pet store. I ended up picking up the corydoras and snails when I decided I was either going to do a community tank of non-aggressive fish or discus (knowing those would be compatible with either) just to keep something in the tank while I decided.

The current tank mate is my wife's betta. I felt sorry for it (fish bowl) so I put it in my tank after I got rid of the oscars.

[Altum Nut]

First and foremost, you have diffidently directed yourself to the right Discus site.
You should have been better prepared prior to getting your Discus. Getting Discus that size to grow out requires a lot of work and time. Should have started out with 3" size.
The spare 55g would be a better choice if that is all you have. If your present 75g was bare bottom, you could have divided 1/3 for your 6 juvie Discus during the grow out timeline.
You can start by cycling your 55g which may take 3 weeks and go that route.
Your Discus are not very happy in their current tank because of the strong light and possibly water perimeters.
Have you tested your water?
Two 300w heaters are overkill in a 75g, and you will only need 1 200w in your 55g.
It appears that I am all over the map with suggestions, so start off with what your current water perimeters are and if it is faceable to carryout the above.

...Ralph

[PAR23]

First Big welcome to Simply.....The best forum on Discus keeping. You will find many suggestions and advice.....go with the ones that work best for you.

As mention above, I would go with the 55G tank and keep it BB. To reach your pups full potential, you will need to feed many times a day which will require daily WC to maintain clean water....50% should be fine. Definitely learn your water parameters. Determine if you need to age your water for WC.

As for nutrition, you can feed BH mix, high quality flake, FD Black Worms, pellets and others I'm sure I am missing. BS are less nutritious.

HTH.....Good luck and enjoy the journey.:)

[ericatdallas]

The discus were raised on local tap water (from breeder). As were their parents. One of the reasons I went with this person.

I take my water to the LFS that does free water testing. This is typical, but not sure at the moment. What water parameters were you looking for?

PH: ~7.5
GH: ~300-400ppm
Nitrates/Nitrite levels are low (again I change my water frequently. Even before the discus I changed the water with 20-30% every 3 days and my tank is cycled). Plus I don't stock my tank excessively.

I know it's not necessary to have two 300W. They were on sale and I know it's good to have two (I've had one fail on me before). Also, even though I have good circulation, it reduces the chance of having one side warmer than the other.

It's feasible to carry out the 55G setup. Again, not ideal. I'm also kind of hesitant to move the discus again as I'll have to tear the tank back down (they're hiding behind all the rocks). Also worried this will traumatize them more. I do have to do it anyway no matter what (eventually) because we're moving the tank to the living room.

...and I am regretting not buying the larger discus. I'm spending way too much time and energy worrying about them. Right now I should be working instead of researching discus care...

I have reduced the time the discus are under the light. I also removed one of the bulbs. I know fish prefer it slightly darker because it makes them feel more secure...

I think they're getting better. A few hours ago they started schooling again. They were all hiding separately throughout the tank all day today. Then they formed into three groups of [3,2,1], then slowly they went to [5,1]. The one that's by itself will sometimes join the others but then leave.

Thanks,
Eric


First and foremost, you have diffidently directed yourself to the right Discus site.
You should have been better prepared prior to getting your Discus. Getting Discus that size to grow out requires a lot of work and time. Should have started out with 3" size.
The spare 55g would be a better choice if that is all you have. If your present 75g was bare bottom, you could have divided 1/3 for your 6 juvie Discus during the grow out timeline.
You can start by cycling your 55g which may take 3 weeks and go that route.
Your Discus are not very happy in their current tank because of the strong light and possibly water perimeters.
Have you tested your water?
Two 300w heaters are overkill in a 75g, and you will only need 1 200w in your 55g.
It appears that I am all over the map with suggestions, so start off with what your current water perimeters are and if it is faceable to carryout the above.

...Ralph

[ericatdallas]

First Big welcome to Simply.....The best forum on Discus keeping. You will find many suggestions and advice.....go with the ones that work best for you.

As mention above, I would go with the 55G tank and keep it BB. To reach your pups full potential, you will need to feed many times a day which will require daily WC to maintain clean water....50% should be fine. Definitely learn your water parameters. Determine if you need to age your water for WC.

As for nutrition, you can feed BH mix, high quality flake, FD Black Worms, pellets and others I'm sure I am missing. BS are less nutritious.

HTH.....Good luck and enjoy the journey.:)

If I do bare bottom I'll definitely use beef heart since it'll be easier to clean.

BTW, will it still take that long to cycle a bare bottom if I move the sponge filter and HOB to the 55G? I can probably use some mulm from my next WC to help start the bacteria off.

[PAR23]

If I do bare bottom I'll definitely use beef heart since it'll be easier to clean.

BTW, will it still take that long to cycle a bare bottom if I move the sponge filter and HOB to the 55G? I can probably use some mulm from my next WC to help start the bacteria off.

I always have extra sponge filters running in my established tanks so I can use them in a crunch....If your HOB/Sponge filter are matured then you should be fine.....BH would be fine and your fish will grow on it.

Having juvies requires A LOT of time and effort growing them out as you are learning....

I would also suggest you get your own kit to test for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/pH......You will need it.

Let your water sit overnight in a cup and compare the pH from it to straight tap water....IF the pH changes by more than 0.2-0.3 then you will need to age your water.

[ericatdallas]

I guess I didn't have to worry too much. All the discus are out now. The Betta is even leaving them alone for the most part. I saw them in a group of 4 and another group of 2.

They are surviving quite well on flake food. Their appetites are very healthy. I guess it just took them time to get used to their new surrounds.

I'm keeping the water at 86F. I'm doing water changes of about 20-30G water change every other day.

I might just keep them in this tank and if anything goes wrong call it a learning experience.

[Jason K.]

i would move them to the 55 , bare bottom, move the sponge filter with them, change 50% + water daily, feed at least 3 times a day. and your on your way. welcome to simply:D

[John_Nicholson]

Good luck but you are fighting an up hill battle. Trying to raise small discus in a tank with gravel, on flake food, with minimal water changes never ends well. At best you will probably end up with some small poorly shaped discus, but my guess is over the next several months they will go down hill until they croak. Not trying to be a jerk just my honest opinion. With gravel you cannot supply enough food to them without causing your water quality to go down hill.

-john

[Skip]

bb is the way to go!

[cooksa]

I can only comment on having the betta in the tank. Eventually, once the discus grow, betta will probably become lunch. I know this from experience.

[tbone83]

def bare bottom, and reserch on growing out discus
every one does it different, i personly dont beleive in 100% w/c or 50 its just a huge waist of water!!!!!!

[ericatdallas]

RIP: one died today :(

Didn't die of malnutrition, attack of others, but rather the dangers of careless water changing.

I've kept up with my water changes but today I got careless as i was trying to reach behind a large rock with my vacuum. Well, I must have accidentally made a small opening while doing so and just as I did, a discus swam into it and was crushed. Didn't realize it until I was trying to see where all my discus were hiding.

I knew I was going to have casualties, but so disappointing as I've been so diligent with feeding them 6 times a day and doing my water changes. I know it's grown since I've had it because I remember when I originally netted them on the first day and today when I scooped the dead one. It had grown significantly.

Anyway, I'll try to grow out my remaining discus and then WHEN/IF they grow to 5" I'll probably buy a couple more at that size instead.

[jimg]

growing out discus;
NO gravel
no tankmates other than bn pleco
30% min wc's
any quality flake, fd blackworms, will be fine home made bh better.
I had a 150 gallon community planted tank made to "look nice", gravel rocks etc. I did have some 7-8 year old discus that I grew out in that tank but only 3 out of 30. not worth it,never again!
Take the gravel out or set up the 55. cycle with gravel in filter from 75 bottom or filter material from 75 filters.

[pcsb23]

Good luck but you are fighting an up hill battle. Trying to raise small discus in a tank with gravel, on flake food, with minimal water changes never ends well. At best you will probably end up with some small poorly shaped discus, but my guess is over the next several months they will go down hill until they croak. Not trying to be a jerk just my honest opinion. With gravel you cannot supply enough food to them without causing your water quality to go down hill.

-john+1 particularly as you are a novice with discus.

[SNap0283]

I guess it really depends what you want out of the discus. Are you looking to have fun raising them and having them look nice in a tank thats well decorated? If thats the case dilligent cleaning and water changes will produce colorful discus. They will be poorly shaped and not reach near their full potential. Maybe thats what you want out of the fish, if thats good enough for you on your first discus keeping venture then so be it. That would be best case on your current path, but youll likely fight disease as John said. But here on Simply you are asking advice from some of the top hobbiests and breeders. They will lead you down the path of growing your discus to their fullest potential, but it might not be the advice you hoped for and might be more work than youre willing to put in. Decide what you want out of the hobby and these particular fish and then choose the path that leads you there. To each his own really. But being realistic gravel in a grow out tank simply can not produce the type of discus you will see all over these forums, but thats not to say you absoultely can not keep healthy fish in a graveled tank.

[PAR23]

I guess it really depends what you want out of the discus. Are you looking to have fun raising them and having them look nice in a tank thats well decorated? If thats the case dilligent cleaning and water changes will produce colorful discus. They will be poorly shaped and not reach near their full potential. Maybe thats what you want out of the fish, if thats good enough for you on your first discus keeping venture then so be it. That would be best case on your current path, but youll likely fight disease as John said. But here on Simply you are asking advice from some of the top hobbiests and breeders. They will lead you down the path of growing your discus to their fullest potential, but it might not be the advice you hoped for and might be more work than youre willing to put in. Decide what you want out of the hobby and these particular fish and then choose the path that leads you there. To each his own really. But being realistic gravel in a grow out tank simply can not produce the type of discus you will see all over these forums, but thats not to say you absoultely can not keep healthy fish in a graveled tank.

+1

[Melissa]

+1
+1 .... Kind of...


Gravel... As in rocks are no good because food and poo fall and collect within it. Sand on the other hand is a little different and totally do-able. Debris collects on top and is easier to syphon out... A planted tank would be even better! The plants would keep the nitrate levels down and keep your water better longer.
Chad Hughes from San Diego Discus recently participated in a contest here on SD where participants were challenged to grow out a group of juvies using whatever techniques they believed worked the best. Chad grew his group in a planted tank, and achieved amazing results. To view some pictures go to
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?170-avionics30-(Chad-H)
If you just have to have a nice look to your tank, and you also want to try growing out some young ins... I'd try a planted tank :)

[Eddie]

Good luck but you are fighting an up hill battle. Trying to raise small discus in a tank with gravel, on flake food, with minimal water changes never ends well. At best you will probably end up with some small poorly shaped discus, but my guess is over the next several months they will go down hill until they croak. Not trying to be a jerk just my honest opinion. With gravel you cannot supply enough food to them without causing your water quality to go down hill.

-john

+1

[ericatdallas]

I guess it really depends what you want out of the discus. Are you looking to have fun raising them and having them look nice in a tank thats well decorated? If thats the case dilligent cleaning and water changes will produce colorful discus. They will be poorly shaped and not reach near their full potential. Maybe thats what you want out of the fish, if thats good enough for you on your first discus keeping venture then so be it. That would be best case on your current path, but youll likely fight disease as John said. But here on Simply you are asking advice from some of the top hobbiests and breeders. They will lead you down the path of growing your discus to their fullest potential, but it might not be the advice you hoped for and might be more work than youre willing to put in. Decide what you want out of the hobby and these particular fish and then choose the path that leads you there. To each his own really. But being realistic gravel in a grow out tank simply can not produce the type of discus you will see all over these forums, but thats not to say you absoultely can not keep healthy fish in a graveled tank.


Actually, yeah, I'm not looking to win any contests with them or breed them. I also don't have room to start breeding. I just want a decent looking tank that my wife doesn't mind having in the living room. I would like to breed fish eventually, but right now I don't have the time (working on a PhD and expecting twins in 3-4 months) and I don't have the room (just lost my office to the twins). They're just fish that I always wanted to have and I thought getting them as juvies I would save some money.

I have to start somewhere and if in a few months they're dead as some are predicting, I'll go ahead and buy adults. I do plan to increase the frequency of my water changes. Instead of 25-33% every other day, I think I'm going to switch to 15-20% daily. I have been feeding them 6 times per day and have noticed a lot of uneaten food.


+1 .... Kind of...


Gravel... As in rocks are no good because food and poo fall and collect within it. Sand on the other hand is a little different and totally do-able. Debris collects on top and is easier to syphon out... A planted tank would be even better! The plants would keep the nitrate levels down and keep your water better longer.
Chad Hughes from San Diego Discus recently participated in a contest here on SD where participants were challenged to grow out a group of juvies using whatever techniques they believed worked the best. Chad grew his group in a planted tank, and achieved amazing results.

I actually wanted plants, but had held off because people kept saying bare tank. Also, in other threads, planted tanks are discouraged. However, since I figured gravel tank was discouraged and I'm doing it anyway, I might as well fail big, so I ordered plants yesterday. Then today I found a few sites with lots of people claiming success with planted tanks and growing out their discus.

With the aid of the plant thread on this site and doing individual searches on each type, I ordered low/med light plants that can survive moderately high temperatures and they should be here Wed but no later than Thursday (I hope): Cryptocoryne Spiralis, Cryptocoryne Wendtii Red, Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword), Hygrophila Angustifolia, Hygrophila Corymbosa 'Siamensis', Sagittaria Subulata, and Spathiphyllum Tasson ( Brazil Sword).

Thanks,
Eric

[Melissa]

Very cool Eric. :)

If at first you don't succeed, try try again! So even if you have any set backs don't be discouraged!

As you could see from chads results, it is possible to grow out fry in a planted tank if done correctly. I suggest you seek the advice from all of the knowledgable folks in the planted tank section! And remember, have patience! And if you have any questions don't be afraid to ask. There's so much information already available in this forum too! :D welcome to the hobby brotha lol!

[Melissa]

Oh, and congrats on the twins, sorry to hear about your office! Lol
I myself have 2 little ones, ages 1&3 :p it's challenging getting water changes done sometimes because of the kids... So I also suggest you find a good way to make water changes easier. I'm not sure what you do now... But if it involves buckets... Yeah.... There are easier ways! Lol and if you want your pups to grow and be beautiful, there will be lots and lots and lots of WC's!!!

[ericatdallas]

Oh, and congrats on the twins, sorry to hear about your office! Lol
I myself have 2 little ones, ages 1&3 :p it's challenging getting water changes done sometimes because of the kids... So I also suggest you find a good way to make water changes easier. I'm not sure what you do now... But if it involves buckets... Yeah.... There are easier ways! Lol and if you want your pups to grow and be beautiful, there will be lots and lots and lots of WC's!!!

Yep, I use buckets but I do plan to either buy a python or get a hose attachment for the sink. I'm a little hesitant with the Python b/c I don't like wasting water (I'm not an eco-freak but it just doesn't seem right when you can avoid it). I'll probably buy a 25ft hose for my siphon and drain it out the window too. I might think about the pump system when we move (we're renting a house right now).

Well, I have a 11 month old and she's been trying to throw her toys into the buckets. She's actually the reason why I started the hobby back up... I remember how much I loved watching the fish when I was growing up and she actually starts to giggle and gets mesmerized by them when she sees the fish even at this age.

I did see Chad's thread and read the other ones too... Good info. Thanks for letting me know about it. I haven't had time to fully explore the site yet. Since I got started I bookmarked a ton of resources (some with contradicting info) so it's taking time to read it, sort it, understand it, and discard the junk. The hobby has either changed a lot in the last ten years or my ability to purchase equipment has made keeping fish keeping that much more complicated. I almost miss the days of a simple filter and a few mollies, catfish, and tacky decorations (i.e. castle, scuba diver and treasure chest).

[lpiasente]

on the betta it will leave the discus alone but it will over eat and eventually die. Betta's are little pigs and don't know when to stop eating....( mmm sounds like someone else I know :0

[ericatdallas]

on the betta it will leave the discus alone but it will over eat and eventually die. Betta's are little pigs and don't know when to stop eating....( mmm sounds like someone else I know :0

Yeah, it's in a breeder/display box right now. I hate that it doesn't get enough space but it gets more than in my wife's bowl (which I adamantly opposed and my wife got annoyed at me as I was asking her if she'd like to be in a closet all her life filled with feces and urine :P )

I do plan to eventually setup my 55G somewhere in the house and I'll probably drop the guy in there.

[Skip]

eric.. i too wanted plants.. but not gravel.. so i have some anibus(sp?) tied to some small pieces of driftwood(paper weights mostly).. and some amazon swords (in there little containers), plus java fren & java balls (free floating).. my plants are left over from gravel days.. but they are doing just fine.. esp the anibus ones.. i am thinking about getting a couple more.. also.. others pot their plants in little terra cotta pots with gravel/plant subtrate.. in the barebottom tanks.. so you can still get plants and clean tank bottoms! : ))

ps.. if you go to my profile/album. you can see my low tech plants

[ericatdallas]

eric.. i too wanted plants.. but not gravel.. so i have some anibus(sp?) tied to some small pieces of driftwood(paper weights mostly).. and some amazon swords (in there little containers), plus java fren & java balls (free floating).. my plants are left over from gravel days.. but they are doing just fine.. esp the anibus ones.. i am thinking about getting a couple more.. also.. others pot their plants in little terra cotta pots with gravel/plant subtrate.. in the barebottom tanks.. so you can still get plants and clean tank bottoms! : ))

ps.. if you go to my profile/album. you can see my low tech plants


It's the aesthetics I'm worried about. I have to compromise with my wife since it'll be in the living room. Otherwise, I would just do a bare bottom tank. Actually, there's a lot of things I would do if I had a fish room... During the summer, I probably could put it in the garage, but it's getting cold here in Ohio.

BTW, I tried to respond to your PM and it said your box was full. My response wasn't anything. Thanks for the offer, I think I'm good with what I'm doing now.

[Skip]

BTW, I tried to respond to your PM and it said your box was full. My response wasn't anything. Thanks for the offer, I think I'm good with what I'm doing now.

LOL> yea.. i got an email that said.. that.. so i cleaned out some messages : ))

[dbfzurowski]

I would of went with sand, i had gravel once, its to hard to keep clean. Good luck with everything, maybe post some pictures, we all love them so much:)

[ericatdallas]

Well, I hate it when I Google and I find a situation similar to mine that has no ending... so for the sake of 'possibly' helping a fellow newbie one day I'm going to keep this thread semi-alive until my fish are dead or I have champion show discus :P That way people can learn from my mistakes or how I beat the odds...

I did a 100% water change last Wednesday (had to move the tank to a different room to make a playroom for the kid(s). The discus survive and they look like they're thriving. Three of them are twice the size I got them at while the other two look possibly stunted... I may move them to their own tank, but we'll see.

I've consistently performed a WC every other day between 20-30%. I figured I can at least vacuum up the junk at the bottom.

Plants still have not arrived.

I had the water checked yesterday and it's perfect. Low nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia... (that's after 1 day after my previous water change - so every other day might be right on mark).

I also started feeding them mysis shrimp every other day (start 3 days ago). I do it the same day as the water change. The local LFS has buy1get1 free sale going on right now so I might end up picking up a large supply of it.

I also got the go-ahead from the wife to add a second 75G tank. She's skeptical - I told her it wouldn't take too much time (I mean, really, what's one more? :P...), but I got a decent deal on Craigslist for the entire setup. Besides, I have a spare fluval 405 and seems like such a waste not to use it.

[wendy9722]

Hi,
Instead of getting the python just use a garden hose and a waterbed drain kit. The kits are only 3.00 vs 35-40.00. I feed the syphon I have directly inside my garden hose about a foot and I'm good to go. Just a thought on saving money. I know how expensive kids are. Good luck with the gravel bottom tank. I did it and hated it. It was a lot more work than what I wanted to put in. Sand isnt so bad and it is quicker to clean if you wanted a "pritty" tank. I think the discus decorate it well enough that I dont need a lot of artifical stuff in the tank. A good background, some sand, a driftwood pc, maybe a cave and live plant and you have a pritty tank. Oh, if your tank isnt fully cycled or is a newer set up I advise using "prime" to treat your tank daily until it is fully cycled. Add aq. salt too. That seems to help as well. You might already know this stuff but if you didnt, now ya do.
Good luck,
Wendy

[beachcichlid]

Eric,

I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge of Discus Fish that the collective members of this site posses. I have less than 10 posts and the Simply Discus society represents the pinnacle of information in the known universe for this one fish. However, I do have a lot of experience with one thing that most members of Simply Discus don’t have – twins.

Yes, they have young children, but you are about to enter the ninth circle of baby; well, you get the idea. Right now in the Buy, Sell, Trade section of this forum, someone is giving away discus that are stunted because he/she couldn’t do water changes because they were going through a pregnancy. Last summer a SD member, with over one thousand posts, sold all her discus because she couldn’t do it anymore: go to school, raise her kids, and take care of the fish.

In a few short months your wife is going to be hating you. You, the one responsible for bringing these crying, pooping, we both want milk from mommy at the same time little babies into the world. You, the one who’s not carrying any post pregnancy baby weight. You, the one who’s spending all his free time with those fish. And, don’t get me started on how your 11 month old is going to feel about being usurped by these two new interlopers. Plus, you’re going to school trying to earn a PhD.

I have 3 kids, myself: a 5 year-old, and the 16 month old twins. I also have discus fish. I like them, they’re pretty. And, yeah, it’s cool when my 5 year old explains to his friends that those are discus fish because they’re round. Yet, when the twins were born, I skipped water changes and held off on changing the filter because I was too tired. And, when I did clean out the filter, I would curse myself for ever getting into this hobby because I was spending all night cleaning up more poop. My discus only survived this experience because they’re older and heartier, even then I don’t think it was fair to them. I justified it by telling them they could be in the pet store. I lost many German Blue Rams and other dither fish, though.

So, here are some suggestions based on my experience:

One, take the fish back and place the aquarium and supplies into storage. I read that your daughter likes the fish, so buy a smaller aquarium for the Betta. Maybe you can buy some German Blue Rams or Electric German Blue Rams from Aquabid.com. Create a smaller more manageable aquarium. In another year or so when things have settled down, then you get back into discus and the larger aquarium. Your daughter and the twins will be older and all of you can enjoy it more.

Two, if you must have discus fish, then take the juveniles you have back and buy 2 older discus. Do not buy 3 or 4, those combinations don’t work. Older fish are more expensive but think of that expense as paying for sleep. Would you pay $120 for a good night sleep? Oh, you will, trust me. Two discus in your tank is not going to create the bio-load that 6 will. You don’t have to feed them constantly. Since the discus are older, and share more than 10 gallons of water each, they will survive missed maintenance. I didn’t say no maintenance, but if you need to move it back the fish will be okay. Want to add other fish? Then add 2 GBR or EGBRs, say 10 cardinal or rummy nose tetras, and 4 to 5 corydoras and you’re set. You could add plastic plants and not have to worry about anything, but it sounds like you want a planted tank. It’s more work, but if you want it then look at this site: www.aquariumhobbyist.com. It was created by a SD member named Walter. Look at the planted aquariums he created for 1 and 2 discus. Just remember the more you add the more work you have to do, the less sleep you get.

Three, status quo. The SD members are correct: to raise the young fish you bought requires constant feeding, tank clean-up, and water changes whether you have plants in the tank or not. Essentially, what they require is time. Time you could save by either not doing it or purchasing older discus. Honestly, my concern is more for you and less for the fish. If you want discus, then I suggest you keep it as simple as possible.

Congratulations on all your children (they need the same thing as young discus) and good luck on obtaining your PhD.

Sincerely,
Patrick

[ericatdallas]

Patrick,

Thanks for the advice but my wife is actually as excited as I am about the discus. We went to the breeder to get some more discus a couple of days ago and she's really encouraging me to get them like that LOL. Worst case, we have some really ugly and stunted discus but we have 4 more months to grow them out.

As for the discus... My wife gave me permission to setup a bare tank (temporarily) in the living room.

Anyway, we got another 15 discus from him. I lost another one due to another cleaning accident but he was stunted anyway. The other 4 are still thriving and doing well with one that's really big. We got about 8 more from the same batch as the previous and ours compare favorably (with two larger) than the new ones.

I also have proof that it's better to have two heaters in the tank. One of my 300W would only heat up to 78F while the other goes to 90F (same brand, bought same time). I put the 78F one in the new tank. I finally pulled out another two heaters for the tanks (always good to have a backup in the tank and on hand.

So I finally gave in and put the new ones in bare tank setup. Although the ones in the planted tanks are doing well with the exception of the cleaning accidents.

So hopefully I can get 6-10 nice discus from the 21 I've bought so far :)

[Skip]

why not just buy 6-10 really nice ones to start.. it is LOTS OF WORK to grow out fish.. i am growing out juvies.. out of 40 and change.. 10 small ones died.. 14 are almost larger then their 15 little siblings.. infact.. some of my larger ones are almost 3-4 times as large as my smallest.. from the same batch.. but just kept feeding them EVERYTHING.. imho variety is Key plus clean water.. :))

so i have learned lots about "GROWING OUT".. cuz its cheaper.. so i thought.. but due to tank space, time, and effort.. i won't buy less then 4".. again.. :) unless its something i can't pass up :) like some P.E. in Dallas maybe ;)))

[ericatdallas]

why not just buy 6-10 really nice ones to start.. it is LOTS OF WORK to grow out fish.. i am growing out juvies.. out of 40 and change.. 10 small ones died.. 14 are almost larger then their 15 little siblings.. infact.. some of my larger ones are almost 3-4 times as large as my smallest.. from the same batch.. but just kept feeding them EVERYTHING.. imho variety is Key plus clean water.. :))

so i have learned lots about "GROWING OUT".. cuz its cheaper.. so i thought.. but due to tank space, time, and effort.. i won't buy less then 4".. again.. :) unless its something i can't pass up :) like some P.E. in Dallas maybe ;)))

Well from your numbers, 35% grow really large while 37.5% survived with the rest dying. Let's say I go on the low end and pay $90 for 6" discus and $60 for medium (4.5 to 5") sized discus. That means I would pay something like $540-900 to buy 6-10 6" discus or $360-600 for the medium sized ones.

I pay between $5-10 for my juveniles (2-3 months). I bought 21 and if 35% of mine grow large then I get 7 discus (I only wanted 6-10, so it's right there). I actually paid $120 for all of mine which means it works out to about $5.70 per discus. So I'll have ended up saving $300 and that's if and only if I'm only counting the top 35% and paying the low-end of the spectrum. Of course, I'll have to rear them but so far I've only spent about $12 on a pound of earthworm flakes, $10 on a pound of shrimp, $5 on mysis shrimp (which I'm going to discontinue using), and I plan to spend some on beefheart.

So yeah, while it does take some effort there's some satisfaction to learning how to do this and enjoying them more knowing that I raised them from fry :) Not to mention the satisfaction of saving money.

I'll also have the other 37.5% (8 or so) to trade/sell or just giveaway.

The cost per discus to make it about worth it not to do it yourself is about $15-20 based on your numbers.

I'm having a lot of fun. My wife is enjoying watching the tank too. She told me my daughter went to the tank and started clapping and giggling watching the fish.

So definitely worth it. :)

I grew up in Dallas. I wish I was still there. The city I'm in, there doesn't seem to be a lot of hobbyists (the closest organization is in Cincinnati or Columbus).