plumbing option. Which one to get?

[daniel19831123]

I'm at the planning stage of setting up a fish house at the moment and there is a few questions that I can't seemed to get an answer from the internet. Most of the questions are pertaining to plumbing.

I'll get directly to the point and hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on this issue.

1. 1" overflow is rated at 350gph and 3/4" is rated at 160gph. Considering the turn over of 2-3 times in a tank, would it be correct to say that as long as the tank size is not above the recommended gph divided by 3, I'm not putting myself at risk of spillage from overflowing?

2. I've read that certain PVC pipe are not safe for fish but I can't find any concrete evidence for this. It seemed to be mostly anecdotal evidence. one of the site has suggested that uPVC and toilet waste pipe are not safe for central sump system as it leeches chemical toxin into the water. It doesn't cause as much damage to adult fish but it causes stunting and body shape dismorphism in younger fish. Can anyone share any experience about this?

3. If toilet waste pipe is out of the picture, what other alternative cheap option is there available? So far i've look into ABS plumbing fittings, Hep2o pushfit plumbing and just general PVC plumbing. They are all pretty expensive when you are thinking about joining 20 tanks of 30 gallon each to 2 separate systems. If it's possible, I would really like to save cost with just the waste pipe option Not only they are easy to install, there is also a push fit waste pipe fitting available!

4. What is the recommended connection for the water input to the tank? I was thinking of using threaded fittings with tape. Would this be a problem in terms of leakage? What about push fit system such as John guest? I was thinking of either a 15mm or 22mm push fit system that will probabaly run on an 8000L/h pump. would the pressure be tio much for the push fit to handle? I might be moving house in 5 years time hence all these question.

5. Last question, I'm thinking of automatic the water changes for the system and I've thought about plumbing the system to a vortex connected via gravity feed (the overflow drain)and then connecting to a sump of roughly 30% the size of the whole system before returning to the tank. The vortex drain will be connected to a time control pneumatic valve to discharge the waste and there will be another pump in the sump to drain the water in the sump on a daily basis. A float valve could be fixed in the sump to facilitate the water filling process. Is there any suggestion about this setup? i've never heard of anyone using a vortex in discus keeping. Would my sump be large enough?



Many thanks in advance to all those who had taken their time to read this and give their opinions. Thanks

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

1. If you are using 30 gallon tanks and intend to turn them over 3x an hour, then a 1" overflow should work just fine. I have used 3/4" overflows in other systems just fine (see link below for video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-5lDw4dHA8

2. Standard schedule 40 PVC works just fine for almost all applications. I personally have never heard that the drain piping is any different in terms of material, but I could be wrong on that part. Though I will say I have used a wide variety of piping systems over the years without any incident of the piping system "poisoning" the fish. For your small system, stick with schedule 120 pipe for your drains. It's thinner wall and typically cheaper.

3. See above.

4. if you watch the video above, you can see on the first system we use standard "drum faucets" that has a 3/4" NPT fitting. The other larger systems in the videos use standard PVC ball valves. You could stick with small 1/2" ball valves, or the "drum faucets" for the tank returns. Your flow rate is approximately 35 gallons per minute (US Gallons). For that flow rate I would recommend using 1.5" PVC pipe for your main header return pipe to maintain proper velocities. How many tanks do you have per level/tier of the system? How many you have at each level will dictate which size pipe you can use for the returns above the tanks. Without knowing all the details, but you could probably stick with 1" PVC pipe above the tanks. For the drain lines leading back to the sump, you could use 1.5" PVC pipe at the tank level, and bump it up to 2" once they come together (possibly 3" to ensure smooth transitions due to turbulance of the 2 lines coming together).

5. With a recirculating system, so long as you have an overflow built into sump (leading to a waste drain), you can turn the water on and it will essentially become a "flow through" system, flushing out old water. Granted it's not the most efficient use of water due to mixing effects, but it is simple and easy way to do a water change.

Shoot me an email: RyanKar@AquaticEco.com if you have any more questions. I can provide you drawings of the above system description, plus make sure you are going to be purchasing the correct components for your future system.

-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

Many thanks for the reply ryan. What do you mean by schedule 40 PVC? I lived in the UK and some of the terminology is somewhat different. I'm assuming the fact that it's thinner wall and being cheaper, it must be what we called a waste purpose waste pipe here. lol. I have considered using 3/4 NPT fittings but at the moment I'm looking at some plastic water faucet 3/4" that you can get on ebay.

I'm thinking of joining 7 tanks of 35 gallon tall per level and there will be 2 tier system with a sump of 250 gallon at the bottom. In view of the pipework supplying the returning water, I was thinking of 2" pipe from the pump branching into 11/2" or 1" over the tank top and then connecting with a reducing threaded tee to accomodate the NPT fitting of 3/4". I was sure if I can supply the water at two level with the same pump though as I would have imagine that the tank at the lower level would have a higher pressure and receive a lot more water than the top.

I was going to go with 1" overflow and draining into 11/2" or 2" vertical overflow that goes straight into a 4" pipe leading to a vortex. Unfortunately, the water rate as it is in the UK at 1 cubic meter at £1.50 minimum plus the charges they charged you for the water drainage from your property, I've got to be careful about my water changes schedule. (It's silly to have to pay for both water you use and water you drain IMO!) Ryan would you recommend a pushfit system for the drainage piping considering it's low pressure? I was thinking of using threaded fitting for the water returning to the tank. Can you see that being a problem?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Schedule 40 PVC here in the US is the "standard" in terms of pipe systems. Capable of roughly 125 PSI, so use that as a guide for using similar piping. It can be used for drains in many situations, though it can cost a bit more due to the thicker wall.

You can use 1.5" pipe for the main return header and branch out into 1" lines. You can go larger in diameter, but your velocities would drop below the recommended rates. Use 3/4" ball valves of the "drum faucets" at each tank coming from the 1" line.

Using a 1" overflow in each tank is perfect. Also, going with the 2" drain at each level works just fine as well (could go with 1.5" if necessary). Having both pipes come together into a 4" common drain is great as well. The velocities will be really low, but I think for this system you'll be fine.

Yikes! water is expensive for only 265 US gallons. With a recirculating system, you can definitely help maintain your water quality better in the long run. As for the pushfit system, I honestly couldnt comment on it as I have no experience with using such a system. So long as it is non-toxic and can be obtained in the proper diameters, I dont see any issues with it.

-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

Thanks for the reply again ryan. I've got the general plan in my head as how to go about centralising the whole thing. The only thing that I'm trying to figure out is an automatic way to filter out the solid particles without having to resolve to using a vortex as I want to maximise the space.

The plan that I had in mind was as mentioned before, 12 tank in a row in 2 tier all draining into a a big sump below. The sump will be roughly 40% of the total water volume of the system. Automatic pump set to timer will pump water out on a daily basis and the sump will be filled using float valve. I'm not intending on using divider to split the sump up but I'll be using large pieces of filter foam as verticle HM filter and in between the HMfilter, I'll be putting other media such as ceramic rings and bioball. Might also include a floating piece of styrofoam in the final compartment with perforation to accommodate mesh pot of aquatic plants grown emersed. I supposed I could use a few layer of the filter foam to filter the solid particle and then just take them out to clean every 2 weeks or so and rotate them from time to time.

Thought about using a ATS but I don't think that gets rid of the solid waste. Thought about using filter socks but they are not automated. I'm kinda stuck as I can only think of having either automated water changes or automatic removal of solid particles but I can't think of one system that would incorporate the two without having to drill an extra hole in each of the tank! Any suggestion?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

With the use of standard rectangular tanks, you are will be required to siphon each tank from time to time. Only way to eliminate that is to use a round tank and utilize a double drain system. This method has not been tested on discus, so im not sure how well they would like the velocities required to promote the "teacup" effect.

To be honest, I would be looking at using a bead filter for your mechanical and biological filtration. They are very common in ponds, but are also used frequently on small recirculating systems. Maintenance is as simple as turning a valve for a backwash cycle. So long as you dont stock the system for a higher bioload than what the filter is designed for, you're fine. Even then, adding on a secondary biological filter is simple and easy to accomplish.

-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

Cheers. I did had a look at the bead filter system but it's way to expensive for me.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I have many people take a standard pool sand filter and adapt it to use beads and create their own bead filter. That is usually a much cheaper option. So long as you can find a decent sand filter over there, you can make it into a bead filter with ease.

-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

When you say adapt it to use beads are we talking about bead like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-KG-BEAD-MEDIA-KOI-FISH-POND-BUILD-FILTER-CONSTRUCTION_W0QQitemZ400182360021QQcmdZViewItem?r vr_id=189076434047&rvr_id=189076434047&cguid=0edd037f12c0a47a24413c41ffff5a59

and the swimming pool filter as the one in this listing?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/21-SAND-FILTER-KOI-FISH-POND-SWIMMING-POOL-HOT-TUB-/160521750489?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PondsWaterFea tures_UK&hash=item255fd787d9#ht_3598wt_1139

I didn't realised that swimming pool filter comes with a back wash system. Does all bead filter incorporate an air blower? I thought that's how the backwash is only possible because of the air blower? I've since then seen a few bead filter with the air blower... Doesn't that just become the standard external cannister filter then?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Yes to the beads and the pool filter. All standard swimming pool sand filters incorporate a backwash valve inside the main head. Not all bead filters use the blowers. The blowers are nice, but not 100% necessary for effective backwash.


-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

and I'm assuming because of the pressure needed to run the filter, it's best to get a bottom drilled setup rather than a top drilled setup?

On the other side of the question, I'm not sure if anyone have tried this in the past. I'm thinking of linking my tap water directly to my sump using one of those self tapping saddle valve (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SELF-TAPPING-SADDLE-VALVE-COMPLETE-3-8-TUBE-/150289404200?pt=UK_HGKitchen_SmallApp_RL&hash=item22fdf25128#ht_500wt_922) that you use for RO. The end of the tube will be connected to a float valve like this (http://www.osmotics.co.uk/pvc-plastic-float-valve-p-522.html) and if I set a timer for the sump to be drained at a particular time of the day, this can automatically fill up using the float valve. The pressure in the pipe feed (according to the company supplying the water) is 7 meter static head, I'm not sure what that is in PSI. Since my tap water is very low in TDS, I wouldn't be using a RO unit with this. Would recommend this setup or am I risking a burst pipe or a leakage by doing this? Would really like it to be fully automated as I go on a few trips overseas lasting a few weeks in a year and there is no one around that I can trust with water changes.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

A typical bead filter runs a maximum of 5-7PSI when dirty. So that is still a relatively low head pump. Doesnt matter where you drill the sump, so long as the pump can pull water from it effectively.

A float valve is a great idea to use in a recirculating system. However the one you are looking at would be much too small for it to fill the sump in a reasonable amount of time. 7 meter static head is roughly equivalent to 10 PSI. That is a very low pressure for city water supply. It would work with a float valve, but I would get a larger one to accommodate this low pressure. Also, how do you intend to dechlorinate the incoming city water?

-Ryan

[daniel19831123]

This is where I have to admit to being naughty. I'm one of those people who has kept fish and shrimp for years without dechlorination :P Even my CRS was doing fine with it until I introduced some newly bought plants with probably copper based fertiliser in them into the tank... Gutted.

I'm assuming that you are talking about this kind of valve? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Brass-Ball-valve-1-2-Part-2-float-valve-/110619786063?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&hash=item19c173fb4f#ht_1198wt_905