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View Full Version : Tank-bred True Altums??



jcardona1
01-14-2011, 03:38 PM
Dont know much about Angels, but I have heard true Altums are hard to come by, and hard to keep in captivity. I recently learned that Jeff Rapps received a small batch of captive-bred Altums, and has them for sale now. Did you guys know?!?! I didn't know that these were bred in captivity!!


http://tangledupincichlids.com/ (http://tangledupincichlids.com/)


http://tangledupincichlids.com/images/altum.jpg
pictured above: Pterophyllum altum - captive bred juveniles of the majestic Orinoco altum angels are now available in limited quantities

Jennie
01-14-2011, 04:01 PM
Never heard of this person, I'd be more inclined to deal with a sponsor here though

jcardona1
01-14-2011, 04:10 PM
Jeff Rapps is one of the most highly reputable vendors in the freshwater community. If he says their true Altums, I don't doubt him at all!

Jennie
01-14-2011, 07:19 PM
Still..never heard of him.. why are you posting this, are you getting some?? If so, let us know how it goes

jcardona1
01-14-2011, 07:27 PM
No I'm not, don't have the space for them yet! Just passing along the info, and wanting to know if tank-bred altums has been seen in the hobby before :)

Jennie
01-14-2011, 07:41 PM
yes as here, at this site out of germany, but None here in US that I can see..
http://www.skalarezucht.de/

Darrell Ward
01-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Jeff Rapps is one of the most highly reputable vendors in the freshwater community. If he says their true Altums, I don't doubt him at all!

Yep, he sure is. Been around for years. Everyone in the cichlid world knows the name. I think these fish are coming out of Europe, Can't say for sure, Jeff's not saying. It's interesting because captive bred Altums have never been for sale commercially, and was considered for years to be almost impossible, much like Heckles are. Several of the angelfish keepers on the angelfish forums are growing some of these out, so we'll know more about them in a few months. Wouldn't mind having a few myself, but I'm not in the mood to grow out any more fish right now.

Jennie
01-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Darrell, is he going to try to breed/raise them here?

Darrell Ward
01-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Jeff Rapps mostly imports wild fish to sell wholesale to LFS nationwide, and retail to hobbyists. I don't think he has any interest in breeding them. I'm sure he will continue to sell these as long as the availability is there, and interest is good.

Altum Nut
01-15-2011, 12:28 AM
In my opinion...I think Mr Rapps fish are wild-caught altums and not tank bred.
Unless it is posted as who the supplier source - breeder...they will always be from the wild.
You don't have to agree...however i have my sources.

...Ralph

Darrell Ward
01-15-2011, 02:14 AM
Well, here is what Jeff Rapps posted on another forum: " It's always been of my opinion that once captive bred altums were offered, they would be a totally different animal from the wild stock that many of us have tried very hard to maintain in our tanks.
I can offer that these fish were not bred here in the US and that they are of F2 generation."

I have always known him to be a stand up guy, and have bought, sold, and traded many fish that came from him in the past. Some were pretty darn rare. I know he wouldn't risk his reputation if he knew this was a hoax. Having said that, I have to believe him until it is proved otherwise.

jcardona1
01-15-2011, 03:10 AM
I have always known him to be a stand up guy, and have bought, sold, and traded many fish that came from him in the past. Some were pretty darn rare. I know he wouldn't risk his reputation if he knew this was a hoax. Having said that, I have to believe him until it is proved otherwise.

Exactly. It's easy to be skeptical in this situation, but like you say, Jeff has a lot riding on his reputation. And in this business, getting a bad rep will ruin you. I have yet to hear about a negative experience with Jeff, from many different forums. Anybody who's after rare and hard-to-find fish knows that Jeff is the man. I have no reason to doubt what he says, and I don't think he'd risk it with a small batch of $45 fish.

jcardona1
01-15-2011, 03:11 AM
By the way, looks like he's sold out. His stock list for the week of 1/17/10 doesn't have the Altums listed. That was fast!

Jennie
01-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Well I went ahead and sent email. Let you all know what he says

Altum Nut
01-15-2011, 12:38 PM
I would never doubted that Jeff is a reputable import supplier. I've had many friends that have dealt with Jeff with positive results. I question more the fish in the photo that look wild caught merely because of their condition.
At this stage where more breeders around the world are reporting F1,F2 upto F6 spawns the fry being offered for sale never seem to post the source (parents).

...Ralph

Jennie
01-15-2011, 05:19 PM
They may be beat up from shipping..hard to say..is one of many questions I asked him though along with QT procedures

vss
01-15-2011, 05:56 PM
For the several cases of people breeding true altums domesticly that I see online, the F1 were similar to the parents in the shape, but many of them have broken bars, and the final size is way below the wild caught ones...I heard one farm in Taiwan was able to produce F1 altum angels in relatively large quantity, don't know if it is true or not...

-Xiaofei :)

Darrell Ward
01-15-2011, 08:24 PM
If you translate the German link that Jennie gave in post #6 of this thread, this guy Simon Forkel has apparently been working on breeding Altums for some time. Maybe all this has something to do with his efforts?

Jennie
01-15-2011, 08:38 PM
I' might just write to him and ask him if he supplies to the states. I can tell you though it will still be some time before they are a success here. For now, I am sticking with Al's scalare

Darrell Ward
01-16-2011, 05:01 AM
OK, after a bunch of research, I think I've got this thing figured out. Ain't the Internet great! It seems the Germans, Linke, Forkel, and others were first to breed wild caught Altums. The Asians somehow obtained F1 German stock, and are now breeding them in Taiwan, and Malaysia. It seems that they are breeding the F1s to each other, and not back to wild caught. This is why we are seeing F2 fish for sale that have irregular bars. They have not been bred back to wild to establish the trait of perfect bars. I guess the Germans are not telling their secret to breeding wild Altums.:D

Jennie
01-16-2011, 07:29 AM
thank you. you went through some legwork I see. So is the altums pictured above wild or tank bred

plecocicho
01-16-2011, 11:01 AM
http://www.pezdisco.es/foros/altum/7950-pterophyllum-altum-opinion-debate-o-dudas.html

Darrell Ward
01-16-2011, 02:04 PM
thank you. you went through some legwork I see. So is the altums pictured above wild or tank bred

F2, tank bred.

William Palumbo
01-16-2011, 04:20 PM
You can keep EVERY one of those tank bred Altums with the broken bars...Bill

vera
01-16-2011, 06:03 PM
OK, after a bunch of research, I think I've got this thing figured out. Ain't the Internet great! It seems the Germans, Linke, Forkel, and others were first to breed wild caught Altums. The Asians somehow obtained F1 German stock, and are now breeding them in Taiwan, and Malaysia. It seems that they are breeding the F1s to each other, and not back to wild caught. This is why we are seeing F2 fish for sale that have irregular bars. They have not been bred back to wild to establish the trait of perfect bars. I guess the Germans are not telling their secret to breeding wild Altums.:D

Thats exactly what wholesale importer from Germany told me in Duisburg , that they passed their experience (maybe just F1's) on to asian breeders and now its done on comercial scale

Jennie
01-16-2011, 06:24 PM
yeah but asians breeding broken bars?? Something went missing in the translation from german to asian

vera
01-16-2011, 06:30 PM
yeah but asians breeding broken bars?? Something went missing in the translation from german to asian

yeah , they run out of black paint lol

Eddie
01-17-2011, 03:41 AM
You can keep EVERY one of those tank bred Altums with the broken bars...Bill

LOL, or how about keeping altums altogether, YAK.

Jennie
01-17-2011, 08:26 AM
Eddie, Bill Likes true wild altums I think..they're sweet!

3dees
01-17-2011, 12:33 PM
I'm with Bill on this one. the coloration and beautiful bars on wilds are what draws me to them. these just look like long finned scalares.

Jennie
01-17-2011, 12:37 PM
+1 any other juvie altums I've seen pics of still sport wide barring while these are thin like scalarie

these are juvies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdjbk4UnLeo

Jennie
01-17-2011, 05:25 PM
ok received an email from Jeff in return on all q's answered except the length of qt time in his place.

All have been sold

These were imported as juveniles - I have not had the pleasure/success of breeding altum myself.
They were dime sized body @ 45 each.
I kept them in regular well water pH 7 88* F and they absolutely thrived! These fish are everything I offered and begged for more.
I do plan to bring in more in about 2 weeks and will post them on my stock list at that time.
Thanks, jeff

vera
01-17-2011, 05:33 PM
getting any Jen?

Jennie
01-17-2011, 05:34 PM
nope. they don't look like true altums