Pat's Wilds Journal

[Second Hand Pat]

Decided to start a journal of sorts for noting the progress with these wild discus I'm stupid over. After lurking on this forum for like four months I decided to buy six wild Nhamunda Red discus which reside in the 100 gallon oceanic in my living room which I call my home tank.

The reds are settling in slowly and still spook easy. I can walk up to the tank and touch the glass and sometimes they will stay. They roam the tank quite a bit now and I still admire from afar, hence the sucky pictures

Whole tank (this picture sucks)
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P1310038.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1310106.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1310107.jpg

They have been in the tank a week tomorrow and are looking better and better. They still show their stress bar abit and soon I hope they look like they did in the QT.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/QT/P1170053.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Last week I buy two Uatuman semi royal blues and they came Friday. For these guys I'm converted my marine tank into a second wilds tank which I'm slowing cleaning up. The blues are currently in the QT and are doing really well for just the two of them. They even started eating flake tonight. I plan on adding more discus as soon as I figure out which ones I want from John.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1310124.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1310123.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1310121.jpg

I ordered some wood from PC1 and it came today. Here it is in the tank on the right.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P1310113.jpg

As you can see this tank still has a way to go before it is complete. This tank will have a sand bottom and will only be wood. Hopefully this is enough wood to make Bill P. happy. I will be cleaning up the sump over the next couple of nights and will get this tank up and running. Suggestions for background color? Maybe sage green?

[dbfzurowski]

They are gorgeous Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks dominik, I like them all but really like the blues.

[dbfzurowski]

Green would work. Purple/gray background would go great with the blues

[William Palumbo]

Looking good Pat!...Yes, I'm happy with the wood!...so will your Discus...Bill

[Discus-n00b]

Great looking fish and tanks. That wood is really nice. What type of lighting is over the home tank? Looks to have some spotlighting effect going on (what i personally prefer).

[sergeyal]

Uatuma discus are so beautifull ,
What kind of background is it, in your Nahmundas tank?
Are they acting the same with dimmed lights as they frigtened with full lights?
Mine can grab food from the hands at low light level ,but pretty nerveous at full lights .

[Jennie]

That wood looks really nice pat!!!!!

[lizziotti]

How are you getting your wood to stay put is it just balancing? Just wondering cause I'm working on a similar project.thanks.also I like the sage green idea!

[Second Hand Pat]

Green would work. Purple/gray background would go great with the blues

Purple might work, not sure about gray :)


Looking good Pat!...Yes, I'm happy with the wood!...so will your Discus...Bill

Bill, I knew you would like it. There are two pieces of wood in there. I turned the leftmost branch around and it now looks like it's part of the rightmost main piece.


Great looking fish and tanks. That wood is really nice. What type of lighting is over the home tank? Looks to have some spotlighting effect going on (what i personally prefer).

Thanks Matt, the lighting is a 48in T5 (2 54 watt lamp) with a pink lamp in the back and 6700k lamp in the front. I have several layers of window screen under the light which is shading the back and middle of the tank. I wanted enough light on the ends for the plants. The discus spend quite a bit of time under the brighter lights.


Uatuma discus are so beautifull ,
What kind of background is it, in your Nahmundas tank?
Are they acting the same with dimmed lights as they frigtened with full lights?
Mine can grab food from the hands at low light level ,but pretty nerveous at full lights .

Hey sergeyal, I really like these uataman blues. The background on the Nhamunda's tank is the slimline background BJ32WA Mesa from this link,
http://www.designsbynature.net/products-page/slimline-bgs/

My guys aren't ready to be fed by hand, working on it. ;)


How are you getting your wood to stay put is it just balancing? Just wondering cause I'm working on a similar project.thanks.also I like the sage green idea!

In the home tank the wood is fully submerged and is wedged against the spillway and it has one branch which extends to the bottom and supports it's weight. It sits against the front glass which I do not like. I like the sage green too. I think it is a more true color for a biotype tank. Like your avatar.


That wood looks really nice pat!!!!!

Thanks Jennie, I am still getting use to your new username. :)

[YSS]

Love your enthusiasm. Really like the blues, but they look more red than your reds. Go figure. :-) By the way, why don't you put your blues with reds in your main tank? You only have 6 discus in your 100G, and from my experience, group dynamic of discus changes when have 10 or more fish and you will enjoy the fish more, I think. But that's just me. Congrats on nice fish and tanks. I would love to follow this thread and see how much fish really change over the next few months.

[Second Hand Pat]

...You only have 6 discus in your 100G, and from my experience, group dynamic of discus changes when have 10 or more fish and you will enjoy the fish more...

Please do follow along, the more the merry. Two reasons for not adding the blues with the reds. The blues have some growing to do so the second tank is easier (for me) to use as a growout tank with heaver feedings. I'm also keeping my tanks (for the moment) as single strain tanks as Nhamunda tank or Uatuman etc. Also in one of my earlier threads NanDiscus made some valid points about not crowding wilds so I am keeping the stocking light (for the moment).

When you refer to group of 10 or more, are these groups wilds or domestics?

[Second Hand Pat]

The Nhamunda reds have been in the home tank a week yesterday. They are out and around most of the time but still tend to hide when I stand next to the tank or feed the tank. They have gotten way more tolerate of people walking by the tank without hiding and come out of hiding much quicker. They are quite comforable with being where the light is strongest in the tank. They are also starting to pick on each other a bit.

I am playing with ideas to feeding FDBW to this tank. This tank is a drilled tank with two spillways and since the worms float they tend to go down the spillway and into the sump. Not good. So I have some funky screen things which allow the water to enter the spillway while blocking larger objects (like fish and worms :) ). Also can position some small powerheads near the surface of the water creating a whirlpool to suck the worms into the powerhead which will then push the worms into the water column. The last obstacle is creating circulation at the water surface so the floating worms are deliveried to the powerheads.

Of course it would be far easier to teach the discus to eat from the surface of the water. :):)

[YSS]

Please do follow along, the more the merry. Two reasons for not adding the blues with the reds. The blues have some growing to do so the second tank is easier (for me) to use as a growout tank with heaver feedings. I'm also keeping my tanks (for the moment) as single strain tanks as Nhamunda tank or Uatuman etc. Also in one of my earlier threads NanDiscus made some valid points about not crowding wilds so I am keeping the stocking light (for the moment).

When you refer to group of 10 or more, are these groups wilds or domestics?

Sorry for not following along. :)

As for the group of 10 or more, it goes for both wilds and domestics. But it also goes for other schooling fish. In my experiences, they school so differently when there are more than 10. I found 15 to be a great schooling number for the fish; discus, tetras, cories, and others.

I know I already said this, but love your blues. I will have to get some.

[vera]

Lovely idea Pat to keep a journal ! and great pictures too ! u need to give me some lessons in photography :)

[NanDiscus]

Hi Pat,
I join the line of those admiring both your fish and the tanks and all I can say is well-done!

I have a few questions though. In the home tank, what's the total flow of water through the filters and through that little marine-like current thingy - which I can't remember what it's called, not even in Hungarian. Just by looking at the sizes of those things, I would assume that it's close to the 500 gallons/hour rate, which seems a lot to me. And by a lot I mean: A LOT. Just to compare: my big one has a 15gal barrel filter under it, driven by a single Hydor Prime P20 canister filter, rated at 700 liters/hour, but I assume it barely does half of it.
One evening, when everything's calm, the fish have been fed, just unplug all the pumps for as long as you think it means no harm to the filters (30 minutes should probably be alright) and see if you see any difference in the way the fish behave. I may be completely wrong, but I would be surprised if they did not react to it. Also, if you see them spending most of their chill-out time in one spot as a group, insteaf of sharing the space available more or less evenly, they are quite likely to be hanging around where the currents are not as strong or kill each other out. My Xingús line up along the 8' long back-wall of the tank after feeding and never ever group up, only when I open the lid and feed them. A friend of mine keeps a group of 7 Heckels and after he'd quartered the total flow in their similar-sized tank to yours, his fish looked like they were replaced for a group of happy ones.
Also, looking at the pics it appears to me that the Reds are trying to stay out of the way of all the other fish. Is that really so or is it plainly accidental?

As for a background colour for the blues... How about a shade of blue similar to my background? It contrasts the base-colour of the fish quite nicely, while the reflected light makes the blues blue.

I absolutely like the idea of this rolling diary and will definately keep an eye on the updates. If the water and the food are o.k., I'm expecting an 'Umm... think I may have a pair"- sort of a post within 6 months or so. ;)

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry for not following along. :)

As for the group of 10 or more, it goes for both wilds and domestics. But it also goes for other schooling fish. In my experiences, they school so differently when there are more than 10. I found 15 to be a great schooling number for the fish; discus, tetras, cories, and others.

I know I already said this, but love your blues. I will have to get some.

Hey YSS, love these blues too. Can't stop looking at them. On my dither fish there are 39 cardinals and 14 rummy nose. I will definitely have a school (is shoal more proper?) of discus when I find a replacement for my 180. I left my 180 in the old house as I had it built into the wall. I still have the canopy and stand so just need to find a tank. :):):)


Lovely idea Pat to keep a journal ! and great pictures too ! u need to give me some lessons in photography :)

Thanks Vera, on the pictures I am pulling the camera on auto and letting it do the work. Most of the picture are blurry but the occasional one is fantastic. I like the idea of a journal and easier to keep track of one thread. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat,
I join the line of those admiring both your fish and the tanks and all I can say is well-done!

Thanks Nandi, I really appreciate your generous comments. Makes I feel like I am doing right by these beautiful fish.


I have a few questions though. In the home tank, what's the total flow of water through the filters and through that little marine-like current thingy - which I can't remember what it's called, not even in Hungarian. Just by looking at the sizes of those things, I would assume that it's close to the 500 gallons/hour rate, which seems a lot to me. And by a lot I mean: A LOT. Just to compare: my big one has a 15gal barrel filter under it, driven by a single Hydor Prime P20 canister filter, rated at 700 liters/hour, but I assume it barely does half of it.

The marine-like current thingy (made me laugh) is a Hydor Koralia Nano (Mini) Pump/Powerhead and pumps 240 gph. It is not plugged in. I was playing with it during my worm experiment. The total flow rate thought the sump is between 300 or 400 gallons per hour. Yours is 700 L | 1 gal / 3.8 L | = 184 gallons (according to yahoo). The flow from the pump returns is directly along the back wall.


One evening, when everything's calm, the fish have been fed, just unplug all the pumps for as long as you think it means no harm to the filters (30 minutes should probably be alright) and see if you see any difference in the way the fish behave. I may be completely wrong, but I would be surprised if they did not react to it. Also, if you see them spending most of their chill-out time in one spot as a group, insteaf of sharing the space available more or less evenly, they are quite likely to be hanging around where the currents are not as strong or kill each other out. My Xingús line up along the 8' long back-wall of the tank after feeding and never ever group up, only when I open the lid and feed them. A friend of mine keeps a group of 7 Heckels and after he'd quartered the total flow in their similar-sized tank to yours, his fish looked like they were replaced for a group of happy ones.

I will try that and report back here. I believe I can cut of flow if necessary. When the reds became comfortable in the QT they did spread out a bit into two groups of two and four.


Also, looking at the pics it appears to me that the Reds are trying to stay out of the way of all the other fish. Is that really so or is it plainly accidental?

Before the reds were added the cardinals stayed about middle of the tank and the rummy nose liked the bottom. I think it's the other fish stayed away from the discus. I observed the reds for a while before posting this the they seem to stay middle to lower parts of the tank but swim both ends and middle quite freely.


As for a background colour for the blues... How about a shade of blue similar to my background? It contrasts the base-colour of the fish quite nicely, while the reflected light makes the blues blue.

I will go check out your background.


I absolutely like the idea of this rolling diary and will definately keep an eye on the updates. If the water and the food are o.k., I'm expecting an 'Umm... think I may have a pair"- sort of a post within 6 months or so.

...we shall see. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

So I tried Nandi's suggestion last night. My silly lab foiled the experiment. I turned off the pump and tank became quiet. The reds went to the center of the tank and here comes the dog. I had brought her home a new ball and she has been bugging Tom and I to throw it for her. I'm sitting quietly in the chair and here comes the dog and plops a very wet ball in my lap. I throw the ball and bang, into the tank stand the dog's tail goes as she goes by...and the discus go hide.

So this morning as I feed I observe where the food goes and there is a current going from upper right to lower left across the lenght of the tank. I will reposition the right most pump return tonight. Good call on Nandi's part.

[illumnae]

Hi Pat,
I join the line of those admiring both your fish and the tanks and all I can say is well-done!

I have a few questions though. In the home tank, what's the total flow of water through the filters and through that little marine-like current thingy - which I can't remember what it's called, not even in Hungarian. Just by looking at the sizes of those things, I would assume that it's close to the 500 gallons/hour rate, which seems a lot to me. And by a lot I mean: A LOT. Just to compare: my big one has a 15gal barrel filter under it, driven by a single Hydor Prime P20 canister filter, rated at 700 liters/hour, but I assume it barely does half of it.
One evening, when everything's calm, the fish have been fed, just unplug all the pumps for as long as you think it means no harm to the filters (30 minutes should probably be alright) and see if you see any difference in the way the fish behave. I may be completely wrong, but I would be surprised if they did not react to it. Also, if you see them spending most of their chill-out time in one spot as a group, insteaf of sharing the space available more or less evenly, they are quite likely to be hanging around where the currents are not as strong or kill each other out. My Xingús line up along the 8' long back-wall of the tank after feeding and never ever group up, only when I open the lid and feed them. A friend of mine keeps a group of 7 Heckels and after he'd quartered the total flow in their similar-sized tank to yours, his fish looked like they were replaced for a group of happy ones.
Also, looking at the pics it appears to me that the Reds are trying to stay out of the way of all the other fish. Is that really so or is it plainly accidental?

As for a background colour for the blues... How about a shade of blue similar to my background? It contrasts the base-colour of the fish quite nicely, while the reflected light makes the blues blue.

I absolutely like the idea of this rolling diary and will definately keep an eye on the updates. If the water and the food are o.k., I'm expecting an 'Umm... think I may have a pair"- sort of a post within 6 months or so. ;)

Nandi

I second Nandi's observations on flowrate. I've experienced the same thing myself when I experimented with flowrate with my current batch of heckels. They definitely enjoy much lower flow. Even in my latest set up on the other thread, the sump is powered by an Eheim Compact+ 5000, which is rated 2000-5000 litres/hour. When I first set up the tank and put the heckels in, the Eheim was going at full blast...the tank is about 423 litres, so if you include head loss, the Eheim was probably doing about 10x turnover per hour. This is a flow rate that I'm comfortable with, having come from a planted tank background. However, I soon noticed after a couple of days that the discus were hanging around together in an area to the left of the tank, where I knew for sure the flow was slow (because of the way I positioned the pump output - it was about 2/3 way on the left, and turned to "blow" towards the front right corner...so the leftmost 1/3 of the tank was the "non-turbulent" area).

In my mind was Heiko's recommendation in his DiscusBook01, where he said to give wild discus a very large filter, but not too much flow. Hence, what I did was to turn the Eheim down to its lowest rated setting (i.e. 2000 litres/hour). With this new setting, the total turnover was probably closed to 4+x per hour. The change in the discus was almost immediate and very stark. As can be seen from the few pictures I posted up, they began to spread out and hang out more in other parts of the tank, even to the extent of spending some time chilling at the right-most area of the tank, where the flow is the strongest.

In terms of the background colour of the tank, I'd always go with black, especially with wilds. It just looks more natural to me, and is easier to scape it "nature style" since black is non-intrusive and creates a perspective of depth. It also hides any unsightly algae you may develop on the back wall of the tank. If you go blue or white, it'll be hard imho to go "au naturale" with the scape to create a biotope setup. Just my opinion :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks illumnae for the additional info. My flowrate is about 4x to 5x. I think if I reposition that one pump return I will be ok. Of course the reds will tell me if they are happy.

People's opinions on backgrounds is all over the place. I may just buy some colored construction paper and "try on" the different colors.

[NanDiscus]

I just had a second thought about that background colour. Illumnae is probably right, black is a more forgiving colour. There is not a single shot of my main tank without visible spots of algae on it.

Pat, I would say, that the 4x to 5x flowrate is still a tad high. Give that unplugged filter test a go and see what happens. I haven't read DiscusBook01 (yet), but the Xingús' behaviour taught me what Heiko apparently wrote about.

Nandi

[Whozit]

Love the driftwood and the layout. What's the source for the pieces...if I may ask. :)

Francine

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Francine, I get my DW from PC1 who is a sponser here. He has had some nice pieces lately.

[vera]

Thanks illumnae for the additional info. My flowrate is about 4x to 5x. I think if I reposition that one pump return I will be ok. Of course the reds will tell me if they are happy.

People's opinions on backgrounds is all over the place. I may just buy some colored construction paper and "try on" the different colors.

i wouldnt change a thing Pat ! its perfect !!just a pump if there is a way to adjust

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, the background color question is for the second tank. On the flowrate of the home tank I will adjust the pump return (affects where currents are created in the tank) then cut back on the pump output if needed.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here is a picture of the reds taken a couple of days ago. It shows them all pointing into the current

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p2020126.jpg

I adjusted the pump return to point the current along the back wall. I feed flake and got a nice, slow drift to the bottom in the center of the tank. Still need to try the filter off experiment and I will tonight if I have some quiet time.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here is a couple reference pictures of the uatuman blues showing each side of the fish. These can be used to comparison later to show growth and development of color.

Smaller blue
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2040141.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2040140.jpg

Larger blue
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p2040132.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2040138.jpg

[vera]

Love the colors Pat ! , i had Uatumas blue but the were yellow brown color and permanent bars , i loved their shape

[Jennie]

Pat, you are doing such good job with these.. I can't believe they are coloring up so nicely so quick

[Second Hand Pat]

Love the colors Pat ! , i had Uatumas blue but the were yellow brown color and permanent bars , i loved their shape

Thanks Vera, you think your were blue-based? I love the colors on these guys too.


Pat, you are doing such good job with these.. I can't believe they are coloring up so nicely so quick

Thanks Jennie, Me either...think about what they will look like in 6 months or a your.

[Second Hand Pat]

For fun I taped a measuring tape to the bottom of the QT. So here is another reference picture of the smaller blue.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2050145.jpg

I have not been able to catch the larger one next to the glass yet for his measurement.

Here's another picture of the reds. I have adjusted the one pump return and cut the flow a third on the right most side. The reds are using the middle of the tank including the center middle. I have tried turning the pump off a couple times but they go huddle in the corner.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2050147.jpg

[Dave B]

I am watching your pump return/waterflow experiments very closely. It has me thinking about subbing my weaker eheims in for my stronger FX5s, and potentially using a very weak pump on the sump when I set it up. I wonder if a spray bar would spread out the force of a return too. So maybe I could hide an Eheim spray bar up in the top on the return from it and have a weak pump coming up through the main Y return.

Mine have never actually seemed bothered by my lights or flow though. (Or the music from the speaker right next to them, matter of fact.) But perhaps that's the reason for the bars being visible most of the time in the blues. (The browns are probably more solid than striped at this point, which is cool... they look like big basketballs.)

[Second Hand Pat]

The reds are using more of the tank. Forgive the length of this picture but I'm seeing this more and more. Also four of the six are showing more solid.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2060149.jpg

The current in this tank flows from the pump returns in the upper rear to the opposite lower corners. My rationale for doing this is to blow the junk on the bottom to the front corners and this worked well until I reduced the flow. I can however increase the flow to push the junk to the front and then reduce the flow again after vacuuming.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am watching your pump return/waterflow experiments very closely. It has me thinking about subbing my weaker eheims in for my stronger FX5s, and potentially using a very weak pump on the sump when I set it up. I wonder if a spray bar would spread out the force of a return too. So maybe I could hide an Eheim spray bar up in the top on the return from it and have a weak pump coming up through the main Y return.

Mine have never actually seemed bothered by my lights or flow though. (Or the music from the speaker right next to them, matter of fact.) But perhaps that's the reason for the bars being visible most of the time in the blues. (The browns are probably more solid than striped at this point, which is cool... they look like big basketballs.)

Can you reduce or redirect your flow before making any permanent changes to your filtering? Good to hear your browns are settling in nicely. Did you see the browns John posted today...sweet.

[Second Hand Pat]

I bought my first of two 40 gallon breeder tanks for Dale's fry. Hubby is building a double stand and the second tank will be used along with the first once Dale's fry is larger.

I also will be getting a couple of John's red alenquers as tankmates for the uatuman blues.

[Jennie]

Oh Pat, haven't been on so much lately, those look awesome Hun!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jennie, the reds are starting to look like they did in the QT and they are going way more tolerate of me moving around the tank.

Nandi, they are responding to the reduced flow rate with being all over the tank. I do not see they staking out territories but there is a fair amount of pushing.

[NanDiscus]

Nandi, they are responding to the reduced flow rate with being all over the tank. I do not see they staking out territories but there is a fair amount of pushing.

That's great to hear, Pat! Just try to keep it this way and those territories will soon be sorted out as well.
I love your updates, keep them coming!

Nandi

[Teleman]

Hi Pat, Love your thread. Fish and tanks look wonderful. Just getting back into wilds after a 20 year layoff. Looking forward to ordering from John for sure and maybe some from Hans. I live in Sanford, Fl and it is nice to know there is someone else in the area into wilds. Setting up a new tank in a week or so for the new batch. Hopefully I can get it as nice as yours. Thanks for the inspiration.
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat, Love your thread. Fish and tanks look wonderful. Just getting back into wilds after a 20 year layoff. Looking forward to ordering from John for sure and maybe some from Hans. I live in Sanford, Fl and it is nice to know there is someone else in the area into wilds. Setting up a new tank in a week or so for the new batch. Hopefully I can get it as nice as yours. Thanks for the inspiration.
Ken

Oh man Ken, you are welcome. I'm only about 30 mins from you. You are more then welcome to come check out the wilds I have from John. I have six Nhamunda reds and the two uatuman blues and two more coming wed. I am down in the Lake Nona area just off 417. I would love to get to know some local discus keepers. I feel like I'm living in a discus desert.

[Dave B]

Can you reduce or redirect your flow before making any permanent changes to your filtering? Good to hear your browns are settling in nicely. Did you see the browns John posted today...sweet.

Well now that I am treating for protozoans and sterilized all my equipment there's really no reason for me not to switch to the weaker flowing Eheim. I found a new gasket for it too so I won't have to worry about leaks.

So would you say that your Discus colored up and got happier as a direct result of the flow reduction?

[Second Hand Pat]

Well now that I am treating for protozoans and sterilized all my equipment there's really no reason for me not to switch to the weaker flowing Eheim. I found a new gasket for it too so I won't have to worry about leaks.

So would you say that your Discus colored up and got happier as a direct result of the flow reduction?

Dave, really sorry you having to totally redo your tank. Of course it gives you a change to rethink your flow.

I would definitely say them are utilizing more of the tank space. But there also other factors like they are getting comfortable with have people walk by the tank and feeling more at ease generally. So hard for me to tell. I did notice that there is only one dark corner (for hiding) and one of the reds has been rather dark (he is also low man) so I used some window screen and darken the left most dark corner to provide some additional corner and three discus immediately took up residence. Then two of those three went into a pretty serious lip locking pushing session and either one of them wanted to back down. I have not observed that behavior before with these guys.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have a serious lack of live batteries at my house and my picture taking has suffered. Here's a few shots before I lost my camera. Here are the reds

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100165.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100166.jpg

and here are a couple of the blues.

First is a reference shot of the larger blue.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100158.jpg

and the rest of just for fun.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100164.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100155.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100159.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100157.jpg

I believe that as these blues mature they could end up being fully striated.

[Eddie]

Very nice! That one in the last picture is GORGEOUS.

[vera]

Love this two Pat , could make perfect pair !

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2100155.jpg

[Ardan]

Awesome!! Really nice!


Ardan

[Second Hand Pat]

Very nice! That one in the last picture is GORGEOUS.

Thanks Eddie, that one is my favorite.


Love this two Pat , could make perfect pair !

Vera, would that be cool. John mentioned that in his tanks these two were always together. So maybe.


Awesome!! Really nice! Ardan

Thanks Ardan, I am really enjoying these guys.

[Second Hand Pat]

Question for you guys. Thinking about simpling the home tank by removing the plants (more of a true biotope). Worried about keeping the tank clean enough. One of the reds gets rather dark. This fish is low man and is always in the brightest part of the tank (stress inducers for this fish). Removing the plants will also allow me to darken the whole tank a bit.

[vera]

Vera, would that be cool. John mentioned that in his tanks these two were always together. So maybe.




i keep my fingers crossed :)
go with yr gut Pat , if u feel its better for yr fishes

[Teleman]

Oh man Ken, you are welcome. I'm only about 30 mins from you. You are more then welcome to come check out the wilds I have from John. I have six Nhamunda reds and the two uatuman blues and two more coming wed. I am down in the Lake Nona area just off 417. I would love to get to know some local discus keepers. I feel like I'm living in a discus desert.

Thanks Pat I would love to come and see your Fish and Tanks. Maybe we can set up a Saturday after your new fish come in for me to see them. Just let me know when is best for you.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, I will holler at you if this coming Sat will work. One of my horses is going for a week of training so might be busy with that. Following Sat for sure. Also would like to see your setup once you are ready. Pat

[Teleman]

Ken, I will holler at you if this coming Sat will work. One of my horses is going for a week of training so might be busy with that. Following Sat for sure. Also would like to see your setup once you are ready. Pat

That sounds great, either one will be ok with me. Also looking forward to you seeing my set up when it is done or near completion,for any suggestions you might have. Let me know when you feel like having me over. Hope your new guys arrive safe and sound.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, be happy to help with your setup if needed:) (I'm no expert however) and looks like the 26th is good for me. Also are you interested in any wild F1 fry? If so Dale Jordon shipped some of his fry into the US this past Sat I will be getting some of his fry (check out latest threads under his sponsor link). If you see something we can have the fry shipped together and share shipping costs.

[Second Hand Pat]

So I removed the plants this weekend and while the tank looks empty, it is way easier to vacuum and looked cleaner after vacuum and WC. Needs more wood from PC1.

Next is to pull the sump and clean it again. I need a finer mesh filter media under the spray bar. The junk is getting through and collecting at the bottom of the sump. Yuck and not healthy for the discus I'm sure. Jo Ann fabrics here I come. Boy, the QT was much easier to keep clean.

[Larry Bugg]

LOL, guess what I did this weekend? Re-built about half the fish room but part of that was to take my two planted show tanks down and go with sand and Manzanita only. Over the last couple of years I have kept other fish besides discus. I finally decided to go discus only and do it right. This meant re-building and removing some racks. While doing this I decided the planted tanks really didn't fit the bio so I pulled all the plants from the 75, removed the eco complete and added a layer of sand. Hopefully the manzanita will be here is a week or so.This became my wild green tank and do they look stunning. I also deflected some of the light coming into the tank. I almost finished with removing the plants from the 135 and this will be my wild blue/red tank. My wood is coming from PC1 also. I'm very pleased with the decision.

[Second Hand Pat]

Too funny Larry, Sounds like you are quite happy with your decision. Your tanks should stay cleaner too. Did you use a thin layer of sand? I may reduce the sand in the corners to just a thin layer like in the rest of the tank. Care to share a pic of your wild greens in their new home?

[Teleman]

Ken, be happy to help with your setup if needed:) (I'm no expert however) and looks like the 26th is good for me. Also are you interested in any wild F1 fry? If so Dale Jordon shipped some of his fry into the US this past Sat I will be getting some of his fry (check out latest threads under his sponsor link). If you see something we can have the fry shipped together and share shipping costs.

Thanks The 26th would be fine with me as far as I know right now. As far as the fry go, I think I will pass right now, Want to get the big boys set up finished and ready to go. I am looking for some wood also and everyone talks about PC1 who is that or am I going to have a dohh moment when you tell me?
Thanks
Ken

[Larry Bugg]

Simply sponsor that sells some great manzanita.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?209-Manzman-(-Rafael-Mendoza)-Beaumont-California

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, all the wood in my tanks are from PC1 except the root ball in the home tank. I really like his wood but it can take a couple of weeks to receive it but worth the wait.

[Second Hand Pat]

So the other night when I removed the plants I also rearranged the window screen to give a soft even light over the whole tank and the reds seem to like it. They are all over the tank and finally seeing a fairly uniform color across all six and first time tonight reversed stress bars.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2130168.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2130170.jpg

Finally feel like I am on the right track with these guys. I also introduced some red wigglers I bought from the feed store but need to cut them into shorter lengths. The discus can not seem to eat the longer length and they get real excited over them.

[NanDiscus]

Hi Pat,

Those reds look really lovely and they seem to appreciate the new environment just as I expected.
The worms take a little time for them to get used to, but eventually they will swallow just about any sizes. See the video attached on how mine go through a handful of worms in no time at all.

Nandi


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0N4PXVnyvA

[vera]

Oh Pat , i love it !! u r my inspiration , cant wait to get my wilds
tank looks really natural and their colors more even and relaxed

[Jennie]

those look much better Pat!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera and Jennie, finally hitting the sweet spot with these guys.

Nandi, saw your video in your thread. Your video and another thread inspired me to try the red wigglers. The worms you are feeding look to be similar sized to mine.

[jball1125]

Wow Pat that is looking awesome! Love this thread.

[Teleman]

Ken, all the wood in my tanks are from PC1 except the root ball in the home tank. I really like his wood but it can take a couple of weeks to receive it but worth the wait.

Thanks, I will check him out for my wood. I Got lucky today in a thrift shop and came home with a 100 gal tanks and wet/dry system for The whopping sum of $25.00. Its a little dirty and needs some TLC but it will be nice For Wilds. Took my wood over to my friend who is a cabinet maker to build nice cabinets for the 75 and 100 hope to have them ready to set up in a couple of weeks. Can hardly wait.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Wow Pat that is looking awesome! Love this thread.

Thanks jball1125 (Jim?), hope you are getting some use from this thread. It is sure providing a lot of useful info for me :) and keeps me on a discus straight and narrow.


Thanks, I will check him out for my wood. I Got lucky today in a thrift shop and came home with a 100 gal tanks and wet/dry system for The whopping sum of $25.00. Its a little dirty and needs some TLC but it will be nice For Wilds. Took my wood over to my friend who is a cabinet maker to build nice cabinets for the 75 and 100 hope to have them ready to set up in a couple of weeks. Can hardly wait.

Regards
Ken

Ken, that is sweet, but does it (they) hold water. Are you going to reseal the tank? Nice to have a cabinet maker in your back pocket :) I'm on the lookout for a 180 acrylic (6x2x2) so if you happen to run across one in good condition...:)

[jball1125]

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;729454]Thanks jball1125 (Jim?), hope you are getting some use from this thread. It is sure providing a lot of useful info for me :) and keeps me on a discus straight and narrow.


Jonas. LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Nice to meet you Jonas.

[Teleman]

Thanks jball1125 (Jim?), hope you are getting some use from this thread. It is sure providing a lot of useful info for me :) and keeps me on a discus straight and narrow.



Ken, that is sweet, but does it (they) hold water. Are you going to reseal the tank? Nice to have a cabinet maker in your back pocket :) I'm on the lookout for a 180 acrylic (6x2x2) so if you happen to run across one in good condition...:)

Pat, I put the 100 out on the back deck and cleaned it out and then filled it up, as of now it shows no sign of leaking but I will leave it that way until I need to set it up to make sure. Don't want it leaking all over hardwood floors, that's for sure. I teach my friend guitar-he builds me things out of wood-great trade. LOL I will definitely keep an eye out for a 200 for you. See ya soon.
Ken

[jball1125]

Nice to meet you Jonas.

Likewise : -)

[Second Hand Pat]

I received a couple of red Alenquers from John today. These pictures are liberally almost straight from the shipping bag. Look at the color on these puppies. Please forgive the poor photo quality, they are iphone pictures under low light and no flash.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/IMG_0564.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/IMG_0565.jpg

I added these guys to the QT tank with the blues. The blues were not happy to have these red Alenquers in the tank. So after I took the above pictures I turned the lights off and the room was dark.

Here's a picture from tonight.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/IMG_0568.jpg

[TURQ64]

They look good..Congrats!...Gary

[Second Hand Pat]

That's cool Ken. You got a sump with this tank, is the tank drilled?

[Second Hand Pat]

They look good..Congrats!...Gary

Thanks Gary...just wait a couple of days. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

The alenquers look wonderful this morning. Even waiting to be feed. But alast, they do not know about BH mix. Maybe the blues will teach them.

[Teleman]

That's cool Ken. You got a sump with this tank, is the tank drilled?

Hi Pat Yeah the tank is drilled and has a sump with it. I was going to ask today what people thought about using a wet/dry system with the discus. it has a little giant return pump with it and i am worried that it might be too much flow for the fish. it has a 1/2 inch return line but I could replumb it to be a 1 inch or even 1&1/4 inch if necessary. Any thoughts on this? There is a 200 gallon tank on Craigs list. it was listed
on Feb 10 Just type in fish tank 200 and it will come up. dont know if it is acrylic or not but the person is asking $500 for it needs to sell it fast. hope this helps.

Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, maybe you can place an inline valve on the pumps output side to reduce flow if needed. That is what I have on my sump pump output side plumping.

I will checkout craiglist. I believe it might have been a glass tank.

[Teleman]

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;729800]I received a couple of red Alenquers from John today. These pictures are liberally almost straight from the shipping bag. Look at the color on these puppies. Please forgive the poor photo quality, they are iphone pictures under low light and no flash.




I added these guys to the QT tank with the blues. The blues were not happy to have these red Alenquers in the tank. So after I took the above pictures I turned the lights off and the room was dark.

Here's a picture from tonight.




Nice looking Reds. Lets see. If I remember my color wheel right, red + blue = purple right? Will you call them Purples or Lilac's ? LOL :):):)

[Second Hand Pat]

Maybe if I get from F1 fry from this mix...LOL

[Teleman]

Ken, maybe you can place an inline valve on the pumps output side to reduce flow if needed. That is what I have on my sump pump output side plumping.

I will checkout craiglist. I believe it might have been a glass tank.

Thanks That was an option I was thinking about, Nice to know someone else is doing that.

Ken

[Teleman]

Maybe if I get from F1 fry from this mix...LOL

Just dont mix them with the Greens then you would dark brown or blacks LOL

[wgtaylor]

Hey Pat
Just saw your update.........woohoo, you did it.......companions for your other two. Congratulations.:)

I use a valve on the return to reduce flow also, works great. I can shut it off and open a second valve to flush and drain the sump. I find I need to flush out the sump often to keep the tds down where I want it. Sure easy to do though.

Your new group look great, thanks for all the pic updates. :):)
Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Bill. If the alenquers will eat worms tonight I will get some group pics (if I can find some batteries). The blues are constantly challenging the new ones but nothing serious.

[Dave B]

You put the new ones in with the blues without hesitation? I would think that goes against QT procedures, even if you plan to de-worm them together.

Then again, they are from the same source.

It will be interesting to see if they latch on and learn from the blues about the BH. I bet they do.

Which food would you say is your wilds' favorite?

Now that my wilds are separate they seem a lot happier, and gives me some hope that perhaps the non eating is a psychological thing. My remaining five are swimming around exploring the 220 in a school. (It looks kind of ridiculous, having just those 5 fish in a 7 foot tank that's empty. Some "holding" tank it is... heh.) So I'm wondering if maybe I should attempt a feeding now, but with the absolute best stuff. For me the tastiest treat has always seemed to be bloodworm, but perhaps they'd prefer blackworm or something.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yup, all in the QT together. I know, rule breaking. I actually will not treat if all look good and have healthy looking poops for the next four weeks. I will even move them to their new tank once it is up and running as I can treat in it as easily is the QT. No other fishes to worry about in the new tank.

Favorite food is worms (FDBWs or whatever) hands down. Feed whatever worms you have on hand. Point is to get them eating. Did not Eddie say to get them eating and then eating the right foods.

[Dave B]

That's what I've been hoping for. I'd rather have a picky eater than a non-eater.

In my case it's most likely that I introduced them to a tank that I thought was healthy but wasn't, and that's what caused them to stop eating.

And then from there, it has all been downhill... though today's major stressor is actually not the Discus.

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, with a little luck I hope things look up for you.

[Second Hand Pat]

The red Alenquer look totally beautiful tonight. At the moment there is a total us vs them in the QT. The blues are totally joined together into pushing the alenquers around and the alenquers are lip locking and push each other and the blues. The QT almost seems to be a war zone. I do hope these four fish become a somewhat peaceful group. If not I will add a couple more.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2160180.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2160182.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2160171.jpg

Here's the group.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2160172.jpg

[YSS]

Looking good so far... How big are the new ones?

[Second Hand Pat]

The blues are about 4 inches (SL). There are reference pictures earlier in this thread for them. I would say the larger one is a solid 6 inches (SL) and the smaller is five and a half inches (SL). I will try and get pictures later of them against the measuring tape.

[Dave B]

Thanks Pat. I feel as though my luck has turned even by being able to save the 4 eartheaters today. I can't think of anything I did wrong, it all happened while Eddie the genius was asleep so I was totally on my own, and I acted quickly and decisively three separate times. Even though I lost fish and have no idea what the toxin was, I am proud and glad that I saved the three. (But immensely sad for the ones I lost). At least this one wasn't my fault like the blue the other night. Though now I'm starting to wonder if something was up then and maybe I did remember to put in Prime (pretty sure I didn't though).

Anyway, right now I'm relaxing on the couch staring at the five wilds in the 220. Their personality is TOTALLY different without tankmates. They're a much more cohesive unit and seem to be playing with each other. The big browns are definitely the bullies, but that was the case before too. I've also noticed that their colors are much more similar to yours under these lights and with the empty tank and white wall behind them... the blues are very faint and their bodies a lighter orange, but the stress bars are only rarely noticeable. So I think that alone (background) was the likely cause for yours showing more bars when they graduated.

(What does SL stand for?)

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Dave, I need to read through your thread, reading it piece meal like I did was quite confusing. Glad you saved three of your eartheaters and sorry about the rest. Hopefully the worst is over. SL is standard length (without tail). TL is total length (with tail). Everyone measures their discus differently. You could be right on the background but the N. reds are showing way less of their stress bars lately.

This morning when I feed one of the Alenquers starting eating the BH mix...woohoo. Getting better at the acclimation process.

So the U. blues and Alenquers are like two enemy camps in the QT. In order to encourage a group mentality between these four fish I am considering removing the blues to a bucket and rearranging the tank and adding the blues back to the tank. Reefers will rearrange the rock work when introducing new fish to force the current population into forming new territories. I could also leave them alone for a couple of days and see how it goes. What do you guys think???

[Larry Bugg]

It is not only reefers that follow this practice. A lot of cichlid keepers do this also. Most cichlids will have aggression issues when new fish are introduced and rearranging the tank tends to put the old and new fish on the same footing since they all feel like they are in a new place. Sort of throws them off guard.

[Harriett]

Pat, I would go with rearranging the QT tank--you don't need to pull the fish out of the tank; doing so would be pretty stressful and may have its own sequelae--they will just spook a bit and stay away from where you are working--as soon as you have rearranged the wood, and do a big water change right after, you may notice everyone acting a bit dazed while they scope out the new digs--then just wait and see what happens. It often works to calm things down.
Best of luck, my bud!
Harriett

[Second Hand Pat]

It is not only reefers that follow this practice. A lot of cichlid keepers do this also. Most cichlids will have aggression issues when new fish are introduced and rearranging the tank tends to put the old and new fish on the same footing since they all feel like they are in a new place. Sort of throws them off guard.

Thanks Larry, it levels the playing field.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, I would go with rearranging the QT tank--you don't need to pull the fish out of the tank; doing so would be pretty stressful and may have its own sequelae--they will just spook a bit and stay away from where you are working--as soon as you have rearranged the wood, and do a big water change right after, you may notice everyone acting a bit dazed while they scope out the new digs--then just wait and see what happens. It often works to calm things down.
Best of luck, my bud!
Harriett

Hey Harriett, good to hear from you :) miss talking to ya. I was questioning the wisdom of removing the blues. Thanks and will rearrange next WC.

[Second Hand Pat]

It is discus wars at my house tonight in both tanks...lip locking, pushing, tail wagging. The N. reds are all over their tank. I rebuilt the left hand side of the tank, felt like I needed another discus house on that side. Forgive the dirty bottom. I have not done my nightly vacuum.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p2170002.jpg

Full tank shots.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2170004.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2170003.jpg

[YSS]

It is discus wars at my house tonight in both tanks...lip locking, pushing, tail wagging. The N. reds are all over their tank.

Well, at least that means the fish are not scared anymore. May be you will need to add more fish. I have one blue/brown/red (I don't know which) who's the smallest in the tank by far, bullying and chasing everybody in my tank, but I have several fish to spread out the aggression. Or he can't do too much damage since he is the smallest. :) If he was the biggest guy, then it could have been a completely different story.

Looking good. Keep up the good work.

[vera]

Hope they will settle nice

[Dave B]

Pat what kind of pump do you have in the main tank? I don't recall you ever mentioning the model.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, at least that means the fish are not scared anymore. May be you will need to add more fish. I have one blue/brown/red (I don't know which) who's the smallest in the tank by far, bullying and chasing everybody in my tank, but I have several fish to spread out the aggression. Or he can't do too much damage since he is the smallest. :) If he was the biggest guy, then it could have been a completely different story.

Looking good. Keep up the good work.

Thanks YSS and I am definitely glad they are not scared anymore but can still be shy, especially during WCs. The aggression in the N. reds home tank is not centered on one fish. However the smaller Alenquer is catching all the aggression so might have a add a couple more fish ( that would make me sad :):):) ).

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Vera, me too. Hope you are having fun.

Dave, I will check today. It is a used pump which came with the tank (craiglist).

[Second Hand Pat]

The U. blues and Alenquers now swim to me looking for food when I enter their room. Woohoo. About time. The N. reds still do not do that but wait for the food to come to them. Also got the 75 up and running yesterday with the sump. It looks good. Still need to replace the marine lamps but everything else is in place. It even has seeded bio-media. Hate to do this but am going to test drive the new tank was a few dither fish especially since I bleached the sump.

Dave, the pump on the home tank is a little giant. The model number is unreadable. It is a smaller pump and is red and white. I do not see anything like it online so perhaps it is not made any longer. It's output seems similar to my mag 7 which pushes 420 GPH at a five feet head or about a 4x flow rate an hour.

[Second Hand Pat]

New 75 Tank. Blue lights and tannins from the wood make for a interesting yucky effect. I did not presoak the wood so it is being weighed down. Also needs a background.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2200009.jpg

[Jennie]

I like..whats the background?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jennie, want to see the fish in the tank before deciding on a background. Could be black so the spillway blends in.

[Second Hand Pat]

Almost newbie mistake. The QT became cloudy yesterday so did a 50% WC, didn't help. Today the tank is still cloudy so did a 60% WC, total wipe down and checked the filter. Oh man, what a dirty mess. Filter is a AC 110 with only foam and it was nasty. Ok, use to a sump and you can see when they are yuck. Squeezed the foam into a bucket of tank water and it is much cleaner now. The blues were showing their stress bars a little so I knew they were not happy. The tank is still a bit cloudy but the blues are back to normal.

The Alenquers and blues might be moving to their new tank tomorrow and I will strip the QT down for a through cleaning.

[Jennie]

done that myself...forget those dang filters!

[Second Hand Pat]

I moved the Alenquers and blues to their new tank this morning. Of course they are hiding in the corner so I threw a towel over half the tank to give them some security. This tank is located in the family and it can be quite brighter than what they are use to. I will bride them with worms later today.

Also broke down the QT for a through cleaning and sanitizing. I will be using it for the fry tank. With 18 fry coming next week a 40 gallon might be small.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, the background on the 75 is going to be black. The sun hits this tank in a afternoon and with the tannins in the water and the shimmer effect from the sun that tank looked amazing. I think the black will set that whole effect off. The discus were huddled up under the towel so will have to get more shade for this tank. The alenquers and blues did eat worms tonight and were pushing each other in the corner under the towel so bet they acclimate rather quickly.

[prat]

Pat I'd stick with 40gallons for the 18 fry. My 12 were fine in a 30 for 3months. The smaller tank will be so much easier to keep clean.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat I'd stick with 40gallons for the 18 fry. My 12 were fine in a 30 for 3months. The smaller tank will be so much easier to keep clean.

Thanks prat, I was considering that too. I can use the 75 for the WC source.

[Teleman]

Hi Pat,
Ken Here. Is it still a possibility to come take a look at your setups this saturday? If you Have something going on I understand and we can put it off to another time. If not pm me with away to contact you for directions to your place. Looking forward to seeing the fish and getting a few ideas for my setups.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

So the Alenquers and U. blues are doing very well in their new tank. They are starting to get out and about (there is still a towel on top to dim the light) and eating pretty well. This tank is in the family room which is busier then the living room so I expect a full acclimation will take awhile. I pulled the camera out last night but dang batteries were dead so stuck with the iphone pics. Yes, they are crappy.

The Alenquers

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/photo3.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/photo1.jpg

The U. Blues

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/photo2.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/photo.jpg

Note that they are all pointed in the same direction. I need to adjust the flowrate in this tank.

[sergeyal]

good luck with the new tank
looking forward to see your alenquers to become fully coloured

this one my friends alenquer , he calls them "wine" discus


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iscEi2BCNek&feature=player_embedded

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_mL8staOtSPk/TQORKLvWINI/AAAAAAAAD1A/PdA-738ahno/s800/red_alenquer.jpg

what kind of companions you are intending for them?

[vera]

Pat , that wood is amazing !! did u buy it locally

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey sergeyal, "wine"discus is a very apt description for the alenquers. The smaller one is nicely colored now, similar to the one in your video. Discus companions are the two uatuman blues and I will not add any other discus if the aggression levels are manageable.

I am not going to add any dither fish at this point. I am trying a discus only tank as I want to observe it against the home tank which is a bit more of a community tank. I'm looking for happy, well adjusted discus. To be honest at this point the N. reds in the home tank seem happy and well adjusted so could be a mute point.

Vera, bought the wood from PC1 who is a sponsor here and ships out of Ca.

[Larry Bugg]

Vera, bought the wood from PC1 who is a sponsor here and ships out of Ca.

PC1 has great wood. Got my second order in from him on Tuesday. It is in a brute trash can soaking. Most of it was planned for the 75 wild green tank, opps, trading that tank tomorrow for a 150, might have to place another order for wood.

[Second Hand Pat]

PC1 has great wood. Got my second order in from him on Tuesday. It is in a brute trash can soaking. Most of it was planned for the 75 wild green tank, opps, trading that tank tomorrow for a 150, might have to place another order for wood.

Me too Larry, queried about a piece which someone had already claimed and then they cancelled so PC1 offered it to me and I jumped on it. It's a nice heavy piece for the home tank. Should come anytime now. Think I'm on my fifth order.

[Teleman]

OK, the background on the 75 is going to be black. The sun hits this tank in a afternoon and with the tannins in the water and the shimmer effect from the sun that tank looked amazing. I think the black will set that whole effect off. The discus were huddled up under the towel so will have to get more shade for this tank. The alenquers and blues did eat worms tonight and were pushing each other in the corner under the towel so bet they acclimate rather quickly.
Hi Pat, Just rereading this thread and got to thinking(verrry dangerous) with the sunlight hitting the tank and a black background, don't you think you might get temperature spikes with the good ole Florida sun? Just food for thought.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Ken, that tank was a reef tank this past summer and with a mag drive 9.5 and a protein skimmer pump running in the sump the tank ran a consistant 82 degree which is a bit hot for a reef tank. I could only run the MH at night due to the heat they would generate and those lights are 15 inches from the surface of the tank.

The higher temps was the main reason to converting this tank to a discus tank. 82 is perfect. Just in case someone is wondering I am not using the MH over the tank, just the T5s and LEDs.

[Teleman]

Hi Pat, It sounds like you are on the right track then, it is much easier to warm a tank up with heaters if necessary than to try and cool down a tank that is too high without heaters. It should work fine for you that way.

Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Ken, Running a chiller is way more expensive than running a heater, lot bigger too. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Couple pictures of the wilds in the 75 gallon. All four fish were swimming in the sunlite tank. Pretty. Of course I could not get my act together quick enough for any sunlite pictures. The water is full of tannins giving them a yellow appearance.

Those Alenquers are looking pretty good considering I have had them just over a week.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1010012.jpg

and the Uatuman Blues. I really like this picture. The color on these blues is outstanding. (IMHO)
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P1010014.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

While I was at it decided to take a few of the N. reds in the home tank.

If I end up with any pairing this fish in the foreground will be part of it. It's by far the most pushy fish.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P1010013.jpg

Showing some decent base color.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/p1010012-1.jpg

and one more.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P1010014-1.jpg

[Teleman]

Wow Pat They look very comfortable and happy. Cant wait to see them in person. Also cant wait for my tanks to be set up and cycled thru so I can go after some too. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Ken, you get to meet them next Sat. Are your tanks started?

[Dave B]

Those U Blues look redder than your Reds! Very cool.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Dave, they are at this point but only had the alenquers (should be redder than the N. Reds I think) a little over a week.

[Dave B]

True. I meant the Nhamundas though.

Honestly your Nhamunda reds and my Nhamunda blues in their current state (which, in the bare 220 alone with less light and a white background, is lighter than before) look basically the same (including, contrary to my earlier complaints, a near-total lack of stress bars in mine). Meanwhile your relatively new U Blues are much redder, even in the tank with the white background and bare bottom.

Basically I think there are dozens of factors that influence their body coloration. It's a shame yours won't all end up living together so we could see how they compared side by side in identical conditions.

[Teleman]

Thanks Ken, you get to meet them next Sat. Are your tanks started?
Pat No my Cabinets arent done yet. Ernie ,my friend who builds them for me, hasnt had time to finish them yet:( but he is a great Friend,cabinet maker, and all around good guy so I WILL be patient!!!:):):) They will look great when he gets them to me based on past experience. Till then I will drool over everyone else's fish.

Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm sure they will be worth the wait. I have a little 5 gallon if you want to get ahead start on cycling your filters (fishless). Also you want any plants, val and swords? They need a good home.

[Teleman]

Hi ,
Thanks for the offer. I have got some sponge filters cycling in the 29 I keep guppies in for the grandkids so I will probably use those to start the other tanks with. but I will take you up on the plants though. I would like to have some plants in one of the tanks at least. Maybe Ican pick them up when I come to see the fish if that's ok with you.

Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Ken, that will work nicely. I also have a bit over half a home depot bucket of the black eco-complete. You are welcome to that if you have a use for it. Great for growing plants in.

Hubby was good to me today. He installed a outlet in one of the closets in the utility room and mounted a power strip n the wall to power a heater and air pump. Now I can keep one of the 44 gallons in there for doing WCs on the home tank. No more aerating water in the living room overnight. All my WC are "long distance" now with a fifty foot of vinyl tubing and a mag drive 9.5 pump.

[Teleman]

Thanks for the offer, I will take you up[ on it. It is great when your spouse is very supportive of your hobby/passion and even helps with it. Those water changes are what makes the difference in a successful Discus keeper and a failure and any thing to help make it easier is a blessing.

Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, you are more than welcome and yup, supportive spouses sure makes life easier. My WC technique are getting fairly refined now. Except for vacuuming or wiping down I spend the time checking the draining or filling.

My next trick is to figure out how to place a remote control switch on the pump (or power strip) to turn the pump on and off from across the house.

[Larry Bugg]

I have had these for about two weeks now. Working pretty well as long as I don't hit the B button when I meant to hit the A.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020ML776

the remote they have pictured is incorrect. It actually has 4 buttons so you have on/off buttons for each of the switches.

[Second Hand Pat]

Larry, that's the remote control? does the power strip plug into it? or do you need something else. It works ok for indoor use?

[Larry Bugg]

I have two pumps running from my 330 gallon water storage. I have each of those pumps plugged into the remotes so I can turn the water on and off with the remote. I can be working in one part of the room while a tank is filling and shut it off without having to run back and unplug the pump. Good example, I have three racks that have a 55 on the bottom and two 20's on the top of the rack. I can be on the step stool cleaning the 6 20 gallons. After cleaning the first I can use the remote to start the pump and fill it. I can clean the 2nd one and then shut the pump off, move the hose to the 2nd tank and never get off the step stool. I love it!! Next best thing to being automated.

[Second Hand Pat]

Do you need line of sight for the remote? Also thanks for the link. I maybe trying this baby out.

[pinoysport]

Hey Pat. Just wanted to say I love the wilds. Are you going to keep them or keep them with hoping to breed in the future.

Im really interested to see the strategy to get them to breed. I wonder if the tricks that work for domestics will work for wilds. I know they are the same fish but each are conditioned completely DIFFERENTLY from childhood to adult.

Since they were conditioned differently im sure you have to do different things to get them to start their cycles.

This is prob info that experienced and successful people don’t want to share but if you’re feeling generous let us know.

[Larry Bugg]

Do you need line of sight for the remote? Also thanks for the link. I maybe trying this baby out.

No, line of sight is not needed.

[jcardona1]

I have had these for about two weeks now. Working pretty well as long as I don't hit the B button when I meant to hit the A.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020ML776

the remote they have pictured is incorrect. It actually has 4 buttons so you have on/off buttons for each of the switches.

Very cool idea, gonna have to give those a try.

And Pat those U. blues are absolutely stunning. My favorites out of your group. I sure hope John can get some more of those guys!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Pat. Just wanted to say I love the wilds. Are you going to keep them or keep them with hoping to breed in the future.

Im really interested to see the strategy to get them to breed. I wonder if the tricks that work for domestics will work for wilds. I know they are the same fish but each are conditioned completely DIFFERENTLY from childhood to adult.

Since they were conditioned differently im sure you have to do different things to get them to start their cycles.

This is prob info that experienced and successful people don’t want to share but if you’re feeling generous let us know.

Pinoysport, funny you should ask as I'm a newbie with wilds and discus both. Bad boy Eddie (j/k) got me thinking about breeding these pups so what the heck. Can't hurt to try but really starting from ground zero here but what a great way for this thread to go.

Starting with no knowledge (ok, quit laughing) I would go with conditioning and proper water parameters. So the first thing I would be tempted to focus on is GH. Dale Jordan says the sweet spot is about 70ish. Also adding IAL to help soften the water to the sump might be a another good first step.

Conditioning, maybe adding some live foods, say CBW and maybe some white worms to help fatten up. I currently feed BH mix, flake (SBHF and have to look the other one up), mysis shrimp, ON formula one and two and Al's FDBWs.

So I would focus on these two things prior to cycling. Maybe some of the experienced wilds folks will chime in. Hopefully not laugh me off the forum.


No, line of sight is not needed.

Thanks Larry

[Second Hand Pat]

Very cool idea, gonna have to give those a try.

And Pat those U. blues are absolutely stunning. My favorites out of your group. I sure hope John can get some more of those guys!

Sorry Jose, missed this until now. Talked to John today and he saw a tank of the U. blues available but said they were still pretty rough looking. He will check them out in a week or so and and if they look good will bring them in.

Here they are in the new tank and the reddish fish I have.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2280057.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Here are the two Alenquers.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2280055.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2280054.jpg

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P2280056.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

So after checking out the latest pictures in Nandi's thread I'm not sure any of my wilds are really mature enough. These beautiful long pelvic fins in Nandi's pictures are surely the hallmark of a nicely mature adult. So for now I will focus on good water and plenty of groceries. In the meantime my N. reds are looking for me at feeding time and are eating everything I give them.

[YSS]

Alenquers are looking very good.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks YSS, I really like them and for me at least think they are very refined looking.

[Second Hand Pat]

Since I will not be getting any of Dale's fry I decided to bury my sorrow in a group of tefes from John. They will be coming the week after the 12th.

[Discus Origins]

Looking excellent Pat, love the updates!

Mark

[Second Hand Pat]

Check out this video. It shows how totally gorgeous these Uatuman blues and alenquers are. This video is my first with this camera and of course it is like my pictures up close and personal.


http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/?action=view&current=P3080016.mp4

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking excellent Pat, love the updates!

Mark

Thanks Mark, check out the video above.

[Second Hand Pat]

So the video shows my little war in the 75. The blues stay on one side and the alenquers stay on the other. Check out the picture.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080011.jpg

Guess I really need two more fish to even everything out. Here is what the 75 looks like at the moment. It needs more wood and a background.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080012.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Here are some pictures of the N. reds. I am noticing some changes in the pecking order. The two fish in these pictures seem to be hogging a corner.

Fish in the foreground, fish in the second picture is behind the foreground fish.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080025.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080024.jpg

and the other four fish are here.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080018.jpg

I am not seeing any courtship behaviors and the two fish hogging the corner will push each other. I'm also noticing bluer gill patches on most of the reds.

[TURQ64]

The video would run better with a hockey game in the background audio!....

[Second Hand Pat]

More random N. reds pictures.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080021.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080019.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080022.jpg

Received this from PC1. It will go into the N. reds tank.
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/P3080003.jpg

OK, I'm done.

[Second Hand Pat]

The video would run better with a hockey game in the background audio!....

What can I say, it was the evening news. :)

[Cuchulainn]

Great video Pat. Thanks for sharing. Those Alenquers colors are striking!!
Now we just need some pics of the new driftwood in the tank, looks like a nice arching chunk you got there! ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Great video Pat. Thanks for sharing. Those Alenquers colors are striking!!
Now we just need some pics of the new driftwood in the tank, looks like a nice arching chunk you got there! ;)

Thanks, I was quite pleased with the video. I took about 6 of them. Having the blues and Alenquers under decent lights really helps. Thanks on the wood too, It is a really nice piece.

[YSS]

Love the video.

[Second Hand Pat]

Love the video.

Thanks YSS, the video was fun and taken with an olympus camera. Need to see if I can take a video of the N. reds. I bet the light will be too dim. Also wonderful if I can mute the sound on the camera.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, here's a video of the N. reds. It's not great, the light is too dim. It does show the "pair" pushing fish out of their corner and also pushing each other. Forgive the poops from the geos. Messy little suckers. The geos are carrying pieces of red wigglers in their months. Looks like cigars.


http://s925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/?action=view&current=P3090038.mp4

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm will be away this weekend and the fishes got their last meal this morning until Sunday. WC tonight, vacuum in the morning and done until Sunday...repeat.

[vera]

what a delightful sight Pat !these two in the right corner do look protective of the spot , could it be a pair ?
i guess the dress ir ready to hit the spot light ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

That's cool Vera, thanks for checking and confirming my observations.

Got the shoes so ready to go party. ;)

[vera]

Hooray!! have fun girl !! im looking forward to pics ..oh yeah , of fishes too lol

[Second Hand Pat]

You are too funny girl. ;)

[NanDiscus]

Hey Pat!

Just like Vera, I'm also looking forward to see some pics, as my bandwidth does not allow me to watch vids. I know I'm missing a lot...

It may very well be that you have a probable pair there. The behaviour you describe perfectly matches my observations with the Xingús and thank goodness I have quite many of them by now. One of these observations is that fish lay eggs while you are away. :D

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Nandi, sorry you can not see the video. Too funny if I came home to eggs. We see what happens but sounds like I managing to get things right somehow, but did not expect this quite so soon. :)

Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So while I'm having fun with the N. reds in the disease section of the forum, my other wilds look wonderful. The group of four in the 75 seem to be a bit more cohesive as a group. I guess hunger provides a distraction to level the playing field.

Also John is holding off on shipping the tefes until I can get a handle on the issues with the N. reds in the 100.

[danidaveyfan]

Those look fantastic!!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Those look fantastic!!!!

Thanks danidaveyfan, I posted my first wilds video of the uatuman blues and alenquers under the title "First Wilds Video" if you would like to check it out.

Hopefully in a couple of days the N. Reds will graduate from the disease section to back here. I'm seriously considering removing the red head tapajos from the N. reds tank and placing them in their own tank. Main reasons for that is tank cleaniness and another is so the N. reds will not have to compete for food. The red heads are greedy little buggers so I overfeed so the N. reds can get some groceries.

Seems like I am seeing growth on the U. blues and alenquers who are in their own dedicated tank with no dither fish but do not feel like I am seeing any growth in the N. reds.

Also think I am going to make one of my weekly WC 80/90%.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tefes and one Nhamunda red arrived tomorrow. QT is up and ready. Only lacking bio.

[Teleman]

Great news, are you going to seed it from one of your other tanks? 75 gal maybe? cant wait to get a look at those babies, I am sooooo jealous.
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Ken, the sponge for the AC 110 is in the sump of the 75. The AC 110 (with sponge) was on the QT tank when the U. blues and alenquers were in it and I moved the AC 110 sponge over to help seed the 75 bio when I moved the fish over from the QT.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's a picture of the larger alenquer. This one is always to the opposite side for the smaller alenquer and is always hard to get it's pic. Believe this one will be a nice fish in time. Also Teleman is coming over tomorrow. Nice to meet a local discus person.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Pats%20Wild%20Discus/Larger_Alenquer_ref_spot.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Finally had a chance to meet someone from the board. Ken (Teleman) and his fiancée rode down on their Harley (nice bike) and spent the afternoon with hubby and me. All the discus were on their best behavior and Ken seem to like what he saw. His love is the wild greens so had to mop the floor a couple times watching the tefes. Even scaleless (N. red who have been sick in the disease section) ate FDBWs tonight so all is good.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pictures of the tefes tonight. I really like these guys and for greens appear to have some decent shapes on them (MHO).
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190009.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190018-1.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190034.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190019.jpg

Group shots
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190026.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Green%20Tefe%20Discus/P3190030.jpg

[Eddie]

Pretty greens Pat. Now you just need some heckels. ;)


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

Pretty greens Pat. Now you just need some heckels. ;)


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Thank Eddie, You said the greens would be fun and easy and I do believe you will be right on with them. Maybe in time I will try heckels. I want to get some time in on what I have first.

So what is the mystique with heckels? They seem to be the wild golden grail.

[Eddie]

They are the kings of all discus. :)


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

They are the kings of all discus. :)


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Has to be more to it then that. Difficulty with captive breeding with heckel x heckel (how to convince the female heckel to get sexy) etc.

[Teleman]

Hi Pat, Just wanted to let You and Hubby know that Donna and I had a wonderful time with you yesterday. We appreciate your hospitality and The fish look great. You are definitely on the right track with your care and the fish John has sent you are top notch. I can't wait until I got my setups ready to go. I agree with Eddie, it's time to add some Heckels to the group.
Regards
Ken

[Second Hand Pat]

Ken, heckels would require another tank but once I find the replacement 180 we shall see. I throughly enjoyed our visit and look forward to more of those. It is very nice to get some face time with another discus person and you definitely know your way around a discus. Thank you for your kind comments and I'm glad I'm on the right track with these beautiful fish. :grin: I look forward to more of your wonderful stories.
Take care and until next time.
Pat

ps. Keep offering to help your buddy to get those stands ready.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have not been here in a while and will close out this chapter of my wilds journal and start another thread. This one is getting quite heavy.