Getting Back Into The Hobby

[moon_knight1971]

I've had freshwater fish for about 15 years. My favorite tank was a 55 gallon display community tank based on some species from the Amazon (5 Discus, 30 Cardinal Tetras and 2 German Rams). I had to get rid of everything 2 years ago but have recently been "bit" by the urge to start another display tank. This time I'm working with a 30 gallon hex, using a AC300, additional sponge filter, 200 watt ebo-jager heater & an air stone for more aeration. I'm thinking of 4 Discus (not sure what strain yet), a dozen Cardinals and 1 Blue German Ram. I'm thinking of going with sand and some fake plants in the center so they can "hide". Reading some of the other posts in this Beginner thread has raised some questions though.

1) Water changes. I used to change 50% of my water once a week when I had a 55 gallon running an Marineland Emperor 400. I used to use a 5 gallon bucket, add water out of the faucet, treated it with Proper ph 6.5 and Novaquel then let it sit for 5 or 10 minutes. I would use a floating thermometer to get it to match the temp in my tank. My question is I noticed most people stressing "aging" the water for at least a day and I am wondering if this is necessary since I was not and the discus in my tank seemed happy and alert? I never aerated it either. If the chemicals in the Proper ph 6.5 and Novaquel neutralize or remove what is bad in the tap water then why does it have to be aged?

2) I know alot of you like the AC filters but has anyone used the Fluval C series? It's not a canister but a hang on filter like AC that has a 5 step filteration process. I've read other posts that suggest removing the carbon and wanted clarification as to why. In my old 55 gal using the Emperor 400 it had 2 media containers which I normally filled with a mixture of carbon and ammonia crystals with no visible ill effects to the fish and crystal clear waters.

3) If I stick with the AC300, and plan to have 4 Discus, 10 Cardinals and 1 Ram in a 30 gallon hex am I overloading it? Should I get the next AC model up? I plan on changing 25% the water every day while the Discus are young then 40 - 50% twice a week when they have matured.

Your advice and expertise is appreciated! :)

[peterhql]

aging your water gives you two benefits. it gives you the opportunity to heat your replacement water to the exact temp of your tank water. minimizes ph changes of water out of the tap. ditch the ph additives. I've used both fluvial c filters and acs. I like them both but would recommend you use something larger than the ac300. if i remember correctly it is rather small. ac 500 or 700 is a worthy upgrade. use pre filters!

your stock level is not ideal but I think you can certainly get by with what you want to do.

edit ac 300 is now the ac70. great filter will work fine no need to spend money on a new one.

[moon_knight1971]

How long does it take for the ph from tap water to change to the ph in the tank, say 6.5? Normally I used to buy either Proper ph 6.5 or Discus Buffer then add it along with Novaquel to the bucket of heated tap water and when the thermometer was the same temp as my tank I would add it into the tank. when you say ditch the ph additives do you mean the Discus Buffer? Sorry, I just want to do it right and have healthy fish.

[TURQ64]

Depending on where you live, conditioning your tap water should be fine. Discus will thrive in almost any clean water, regarding the ph. As for your stocking plans, Rams aren't very fond of being loners anymore than the Discus....

[moon_knight1971]

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. This is news to me about not regulating the ph! All the books I've read always swore by ensuring the ph is between 6 and 6.5. does anyone know what the ph is in the Amazon where they are originally from?

[aalbina]

How long does it take for the ph from tap water to change to the ph in the tank, say 6.5? Normally I used to buy either Proper ph 6.5 or Discus Buffer then add it along with Novaquel to the bucket of heated tap water and when the thermometer was the same temp as my tank I would add it into the tank. when you say ditch the ph additives do you mean the Discus Buffer? Sorry, I just want to do it right and have healthy fish.

It depends on your water's ability to buffer pH - so there is no right answer. The best thing to do is put some tap water in a quart or so container and test the pH right away. Let it sit twelve hours and re-test. If there is no change - let it sit for another 12 and test again. You may see a change in pH as the water gasses off (CO2 is released). If you don't see a change - no need to age your water. pH is logarithmic so a difference of 1 point is 10 times the acidity or alkalinity! To an osmoregulating fish - the change from 7.5 to 6.5 is huge.

Most folks here will tell you not to chemically adjust the pH. The reason they tell you that is that any chemical adjustment is temporary - eventually the calcium carbonate or sodium carbonate will precipitate out of the water. The best pH for discus is a stable pH. If your water's natural pH is stable - that's much healthier for the fish than adding chemicals which will likely bounce pH all over the place if something comes up (like life) and you can't do a water change for a few days. Freshwater fish are osmoregulators - that means their body chemistry actually changes based on water conditions in order to maximize their uptake of critical nutrients and trace minerals required for survival in water. Every time the pH changes - their body chemistry has to catch up.

Discus can do fine in a variety of pH ranges - stability is the most important thing to remember. So, if after 24 hours, your pH is 7.5 - then it's 7.5. If it's 7.5 out of the tap and stays at 7.5 after 24 hours - you're one of the lucky ones that doesn't have to age your water. I have to age, heat and aerate my well water (especially in the New England winters) or I have a change of 1.5 points in pH - not something I want to shock my fish with.

Best of luck with the new fish and welcome back to the hobby!

Adam

[moon_knight1971]

Thanks Adam! That explains alot! I'm still waiting for my Fresh Water Master Test Kit to arrive but my 1st course of action will be to conduct 2 tests of my tap water. 1 with 3 readings: Right away, after 12 hrs then after 24 hrs but without aeration. 2nd, do the same 3 tests but with aeration. Anybody from the Bay Area want to share some info with me?

[moon_knight1971]

Also, is Tetra's EasyBalance product any good? Or how about any of those brands that say they contain trace elements that are "beneficial" to the discus? What is Prime? I hear alot of people using it but I can't say I've ever seen or heard of it until now.....

[Altum Nut]

Prime is a water conditioner: http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

...Ralph

[TURQ64]

Depending on what part of 'thew Bay Area', the water is stable and excellent right from the tap, with the exception of cold winter months and the district's need to reduce molds..Hetch Hetchie Res. is good aged rainwater with no external use other than drinking. As far as I know, Sausalito, Marin, S.F. city, and Pacifica all share the res. Any other locale, you have to check all of your parameters.

[moon_knight1971]

Depending on where you live, conditioning your tap water should be fine. Discus will thrive in almost any clean water, regarding the ph. As for your stocking plans, Rams aren't very fond of being loners anymore than the Discus....

Noted! Will get 3 Rams!

[moon_knight1971]

Thanks Ralph! Prime is a water conditioner! Anyone here do a comparison of Prime vs Novaquel?

[moon_knight1971]

TURQ64 I am in Pacifica. I plan on getting my stock from Kenny so I want them to thrive!

[aalbina]

I would talk to Kenny and see what he has to say - especially if he's near by. Not familiar with the geography of the west coast...

[TURQ64]

I raised Discus back in the valley in Pacifica off Alacante for a couple decades, great water..a little chlorine this time of year, and when the rains are heavy...........Kenny's good..Sunrise are nice folks at the top 'o the hill.....

[moon_knight1971]

I emailed Kenny for his opinion. Sunrise closed down a few years ago unfortunately but I believe he is doing things online. TURQ64 when you were raising your discus all you did was use the water straight from tap and treat it with Prime or Novaquel? No aerating and no aging?

[TURQ64]

I used tap from the garage spigot to my holding tank (a pair of drums). Submerged heater in the holding tank. Seldom sat longer than overnight. 40+ tanks in your average Pacifica garage uses a lot of water.. Not particularly found of heavy metals from the house water heater....Those products were'nt readily available, if even made. I just used cheap stuff like 'start right', etc during the winter. Never used anything during the summer months. As a rigging foreman for Sheedy Crane and Rigging, we always had something going on in a treatment plant, public aquarium, or something, so I used to know right away whenever the area was experiencing any reason for the local producers to add any chemicals to the supply.

[fishorama]

I may be moving to the bay area soon & a friend on another fish board sent me this link http://www.ebmud.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/2009_annual_water_quality_report_1.pdf The water is quite soft as is my current water but the pH is much higher in SF area, less of a concern than TDS & hardness IMO & hers.

[moon_knight1971]

Hmmmz...thanks for the info TURQ64 and thanks for the link fishorama. Went to 4 LFS today and got pretty much the same answer: Treat the water with buffer & prime. Still awaiting Kenny's response.

[moon_knight1971]

Kenny says that domestic discus should be fine if the ph level and between 6 - 8.5. I went to LFS and saw some beautiful Angelfish. Can they tolerate the same water conditions?

[William Palumbo]

Lots of us keep Angels with Discus...Just be sure to QT any Angels before mixing with Discus...Bill

[moon_knight1971]

Thanks William!

[peterhql]

Most (not all! edit... nevermind...) LFS's are in the business of selling you products. Funny how all four stores told you to buy buffers.

[TURQ64]

Most (not all! edit... nevermind...) LFS's are in the business of selling you products. Funny how all four stores told you to buy buffers.

+1 on that! Never used a teasoonfull and hatched out thousands of fry in that neighborhood...Kenny told me that Herman Chan is still open in SF....Go there for a mind lesson, grasshopper! (Fairy Lake Discus Palace, around 18th or 19th in the avenues) He's best homeboy truth on SF Bay water and fish.

[moon_knight1971]

I visited Herman Chan yesterday. That's where I saw the awesome angelfish! Herman told me to use buffer too lol. Another question: Since Kenny gets his stock overseas does that mean its not domestic discus lol? Does anyone have stock from Kenny and NOT use buffer?

[TURQ64]

If the whole Bay Area has switched to needing buffers, something's been changed in the area's water aquisition practices...I would have to see the buffer come out of Herman's hand myself to believe he's using buffers himself. Oh well, there's nothing wrong with buffers, they are just expensive. I have several brands in my cabinet, but prefer to just add some aged tap to my RO for any buffering; mostly for calcium. That's the 'other side' of life, RO..Even when I have times of not raising fish, I'm still making RO!...But then, that's where I went for stability many years ago. The 'right water' solutions run the gammut among fish-keeper's, but I still maintain that it comes down to the routine that works best for both the fish, and their keeper's..

[moon_knight1971]

Grrr! I'm in a 1 bedroom apartment so space is at a premium. Can't have this hobby over run my living area lol.....

[aalbina]

Yes - I have two Pearl Pigeon Blood juvies from Kenny and they are growing like mad - no buffers. However, I live on the East Coast and I'm on well water. I filter, age, heat and aerate the water (not RO) and my TDS is right around 150 - so maybe I don't need any buffers. Like TURQ64 says - it's really up to you and depends a lot on your water in your area and what you can reasonably do as far as maintenance. I'm not a big fan of messing with the water - it seems like an up hill constant battle that wears me out. When I'm worn out, I get lazy - when I get lazy my fish suffer.

Adam

[moon_knight1971]

Good points Adam! Hate 'experimenting" with live fish but it looks like that's what I'm going to have to do. Question: If locally raised discus or angelfish are raised in 7.0 ph and I purchase some for my fish tank which is at 8.3 ph but all the other levels are good is that too rough for them? I'm thinking the water here is 8 - 8.5 ph and all I want to do is use products like Prime or Novaquel.

[aalbina]

...Question: If locally raised discus or angelfish are raised in 7.0 ph and I purchase some for my fish tank which is at 8.3 ph but all the other levels are good is that too rough for them? I'm thinking the water here is 8 - 8.5 ph and all I want to do is use products like Prime or Novaquel.

You'll find many members here keeping discus at those levels of pH with success. As long as your pH is stable at 8.3 your discus will be fine. I wouldn't worry so much about pH - you need to worry about ammonia, nitrites and nitrates way more than pH. This is especially true in water that is above 6.4 in pH. The pH effects the toxicity of ammonia. At low pH levels ammonia is chemically altered to ammonium and is not toxic to fish. At a pH of 8.3 - ammonia is not altered and is extremely toxic to fish - so biological filtration and a cycled tank is an absolute must. Staying on top of water parameters in these areas will benefit your fish far more than trying to alter the pH chasing an Amazon River standard. See if you can get a cycled sponge or filter media from your breeder - that will be a tremendous help in the first few weeks of acclimation for your new fish.

Adam

[moon_knight1971]

Awesome advice Adam! I was getting ready to buy Tetra Safe but media from a reputable breeder or LFS is a much better idea!

[Eddie]

Awesome advice Adam! I was getting ready to buy Tetra Safe but media from a reputable breeder or LFS is a much better idea!

I wouldn't use media from the lfs, it's like bringing home the flu.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[aalbina]

+1. - breeder is what I recommended not a LFS. (;

Adam

[scottthomas]

Treat the water with buffer & prime.

Buffer waste of money. Use Prime or Safe and water.


I wouldn't use media from the lfs, it's like bringing home the flu.

+1


+1. - breeder is what I recommended not a LFS. (;

+2

[moon_knight1971]

Grrr! Back to waiting for it to cycle for 4 - 6 weeks or using Tetra Safe. Thanks for the advice all!